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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 6 Mar 1992

Vol. 416 No. 9

Trustee (Authorised Investments) Order, 1992: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves the following Order in draft:—

Trustee (Authorised Investments) Order, 1992,

a copy of which Order in draft was laid before the House on 30th January, 1992.

The purpose of the draft order before the House is to amend the list of investments in which trustees may invest funds under their control. The order is being made under the Trustee (Authorised Investments) Act, 1958. The principal purpose of this legislation is to protect the beneficiaries of trusts by offering a range of suitable and prudent investments. Although a trust deed may specify wider powers of investment by the trustees, many trusts and similar funds are confined to investments authorised under the Act. In addition, the funds held by the courts can only be invested in trustee authorised investments.

Under section 2 of the 1958 Act, the Minister for Finance is empowered to amend the list of trustee authorised investments by order. A draft of the order must be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and a motion of approval passed by each House before the order can be made. The list is kept under review and changes are proposed when appropriate. The last amendment was made in 1990.

The existing list is quite long and detailed and I can make copies available to the House if this is desired. The 1958 Act sets out the original series of investments and the list has been amended by order 11 times since then. The typical investments authorised are gilt-edged securities, deposits with banks and building societies and certain unit trusts. This type of investment is very much the safe and secure sort, which is as it should be in the case of trust fund investments.

I now ask the House to approve the addition of three new investments to the list. The first of the investments I propose to add is investments in interest-bearing deposit accounts with ABN AMRO Bank NV. In September 1991 the Netherlands' two largest banks, Algemene Bank Nederland NV and Amsterdam-Rotterdam Bank NV merged to form ABN AMRO Bank NV. The merger has made ABN AMRO the largest bank in the Netherlands and the sixth largest in Europe. ABN has had a subsidiary operation in Ireland since 1972. The subsidiary, ABN AMRO (Ireland) Limited, own a majority stake in stockbrokers Riada and have established a number of companies in the Irish Financial Services Centre.

ABN AMRO Bank NV applied to the Central Bank to operate a branch in Ireland to which certain parts of the business of the existing subsidiary have been transferred. The Central Bank gave permission for the branch to commence operating on 1 February 1992. Interest-bearing deposit accounts with the subsidiary have trustee authorised investment status and ABN AMRO want the same status for interest-bearing deposit accounts with the branch.

The Central Bank supported the ABN AMRO request and I have no doubt that the inclusion of the bank on the list is warranted.

I propose also, to add to the list Irish Life's Charité Unit Trust, Cash Fund and Fixed Interest Fund, and the following three AIB Unit Trusts: Allied Irish High Income Bond; Allied Irish Capital Growth Fund; and Allied Irish Charicash.

There are a number of unit trusts already on the list. The guidelines in these cases require that the unit trust should invest only in trustee authorised investments. Both Irish Life and AIB have given undertakings that the unit trusts will invest only in cash or gilts which are trustee authorised investments.

It might be helpful to the House if I outlined the manner in which applications for admission to the list of trustee authorised investments are dealt with and the particular criteria which apply to the examination of applications.

Given the reasons for the trustee legislation, I have to be careful in examining applications to ensure that the investments placed on the list are, in so far as possible, sound, reliable and remunerative. To enable the assessment of applications on objective grounds, a set of criteria has been drawn up for banks, building societies, life assurance and unit trusts. The criteria for deposits with a bank or building society are as follows: the bank or building society must be authorised to operate in Ireland and must have carried on business for at least three years; the bank or building society must have complied with the statutory requirements laid down from time to time; the Minister for Finance after consultation with the Central Bank must be assured that the bank or building society has a satisfactory record of compliance with the Central Bank's prudential standards and requirements; and the bank or building society must have (i) gross assets of at least £35 million; (ii) a minimum capital of £2.5 million; or (iii) if the applicant is a subsidiary of another credit institution, the parent institution must have gross assets of at least £100 million.

In order to be considered for listing as an authorised investment, a unit trust must provide a suitable application outlining the legal, financial and administrative arrangements in relation to the trust, e.g. a copy of the deed of trust. In addition: it must be an authorised unit trust under the relevant UCITS or unit trust legislation; it must have been in operation for three years; the Minister for Finance, after consultation with the Central Bank must be happy that the company has a satisfactory record of compliance with the supervisory requirements of the Central Bank; the unit trust may only invest in Government securities or/and deposits placed with licensed banks or building societies; the unit trust must offer to buy back units from trustees at the quoted market rate; and the criteria for admission to the list be met on a continuing basis.

In relation to life assurance products, the applicant must supply specific information on the particular investment product to enable the Department to assess its suitability for listing. In addition, the life assurance company must satisfy the following criteria: It must hold an authorisation to transact one or more of the main categories of life assurance business in the State; it must have been established and actively trading with the public for at least three years; as in the case of banks, building societies and unit trusts, the Minister for Finance, after consultation with the Minister for Industry and Commerce, must be satisfied that the company have a satisfactory record of compliance with the supervisory requirements of the Department of Industry and Commerce; the company must have in each of the two years preceding the application assets of at least £50 million within the State and exceed by 50 per cent or more the required EC minimum solvency margin requirements for life assurers; the company must provide the Minister for Finance with a certificate of solvency, signed by at least two of the directors and the appointed actuary, in respect of the year immediately preceding the application; the product should be based exclusively on Government securities or cash deposits with deposit taking institutions authorised for trustee investments; the product should have been on the market for at least three years preceding the application and the company should be committed to maintaining the product on the market for the foreseeable future; and, finally, the criteria must be met on a continuing basis.

These are stringent requirements and rightly so. They are not excessive, however, in the light of the probity and financial soundness which one would expect of any well established financial institution.

The Department seek to supply the criteria in a reasonable manner. Thus, in applying the three year rule, the Department will take into account whether the business is being transferred from one authorised firm to another. In this case, it is reasonable to give credit for the period before the transfer in applying the three year rule.

The purpose of setting out these criteria is to be helpful to applicants and to ensure, as far as possible, that there is a level playing field for each type of applicant. The criteria were drawn up after consultation with the Central Bank and the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

After an application has been processed, I am obliged, under the terms of the Trustee (Authorised Investments) Act, 1958, to consult a number of referees in regard to any proposed order to amend the list of investments. These referees are the Governor of the Central Bank, the Public Trustee, the President of the Irish Stock Exchange, the President of the Incorporated Law Society, the chairman of the Irish Banks' Standing Committee and a judge of the High Court nominated by the President of the High Court.

The referees have all been consulted and no objections have been raised to the terms of the present draft order.

The additions I am proposing will expand the investment options available to trust funds and will facilitate the operations of trustees and, in particular, charities who are affected by this legislation.

While the additions to the list concerned specific institutions, the opportunity should not be allowed to pass without a mention of the financial sector generally. We have seen in the last two years the passage of a series of legislation which will enable Irish financial institutions to compete more effectively in the EC internal market and will improve the protection available to persons dealing with those institutions. The success of the International Financial Services Centre, where domestic firms are strongly represented, shows that the Irish financial sector can compete with the best abroad. The 1990 "Europen" report on financial services also reinforced this conclusion. However, it is up to the individual firm to plan its own response to the opportunities and challenges involved. I am encouraged by the moves made by particular firms to gear up to meet the challenge and I know that the financial sector will remain an important contributor to employment in the State.

I have no doubt that the products and deposit accounts being added to the list will prove their worth to trustees and, accordingly, I recommend the Order to the House.

(Limerick East): My party will agree to this measure as proposed by the Minister. It arises from the Trustee (Authorised Investments) Act, 1958. The Minister is proposing additions to the list of financial institutions in which it will be proper for trustees to invest funds. I understand from his speech that the list has been amended 11 times in the past. It seems from the information which he has put before the House that the additional financial institutions which he is proposing today are very reputable and we have no objection to them being added to the list.

I thank the Minister for the information he has given in relation to the regulations which a financial institution will have to comply with before they can be considered for inclusion on the list. This information will be useful to the Members of the House who intend to speak on this issue because it is not readily available. It will also be useful to any future applicants.

The Minister has set out the regulations in clear form. On a first reading they look to be very stringent, but obviously the funds invested by trustees need to be protected in the fullest possible way. The Minister has also stated that he has consulted with all the necessary referees and they have no objection to the addition of these three applicants to the list. Consequently, if it satisfies the referees, it will satisfy us as well.

The Minister referred to the finance industry in general. I wish to follow him by making one remark and asking him to take a look at one matter for me. One of the reports undertaken in the preparation of the proposals on the manufacturing industry in what has become known as the Culliton report considered the adequacy of funding for industry in the Irish banking system. The view has been expressed by the eminent academic involved, the professor at Coleraine University, that for a variety of reasons the banking system in Ireland in both the medium and long term may not be in a position to provide adequate funding for the expansion of manufacturing industry for which we all hope. He has argued that during the past few years the percentage of savings paid into the banks has reduced significantly whereas the amount paid into pension funds and life assurance funds has increased dramatically. He has further argued that there is a bias in the taxation system which encourages this and that people are investing in life assurance and pension funds on the grounds of tax efficiency. They are quite free to do this.

It is my concern that life assurance and pension funds tend to invest, on the one hand, in Government gilts or on the other, in property, whereas money in the banks is more freely available as capital for manufacturing industry, particularly for indigenous firms. I would like the Minister to take a look at this matter between now and the Finance Bill to see, first of all, if this line of argument is valid and to then see if he can establish a level playing pitch by spelling out in greater detail his intentions in regard to the changes he announced in the budget in relation to the bank levy and by spelling out in greater detail the changes he has in mind in respect of deposit interest retention tax.

I do not expect him to reply today but I would like him to take the opportunity in the next few weeks to either validate this line of argument and indicate what he is going to do, or, on the other hand, point out where the flaws are in this argument if the manufacturing industry in Ireland is not facing a funding problem in the medium to long term.

The Labour Party will support the proposed inclusion of the additional funds and other sources of possible investment in which investors can safely put their money following the Minister's announcement today. I wonder if the market is wide enough at present to take the level of investment coming on stream from different pension funds. I hope, first of all, that the Minister will be able to assure the House that ABN AMRO Bank and the three Allied Irish funds, to which he has referred, will be available as quickly as possible. Perhaps he would clarify in his reply when these trusts will be eligible. Will they be eligible as and from today or will there be a lead-in period and, if so, how will this be communicated to the marketplace?

Like Deputy Noonan, I welcome the fact that perhaps for the first time in a long time the criteria, which have to be met by funds if they are to qualify under the 1958 Act, have been clearly outlined. I hope the Minister will take into account, however, in the context of the liberalisation of capital movements, the possibility that the trustees in charge of funds will be able to invest in a wider range of instruments, other than those listed in the 1958 Act, in capital markets other than our own, if they are to get the best possible return for those on whose behalf they are making the investments.

Perhaps the Minister, either this evening or on another occasion, will tell us what he proposes to do in relation to capital movements. I have put down a number of questions on overall deposits. I share Deputy Noonan's concern that the Irish financial institutions, as expressed in the analysis in the "Europen" report of 1990, are not as safe as the Minister might complacently think. Staff levels and costs in Irish banking and associated financial institutions are very high in relative terms and they are not as competitive as they would have us believe. In addition, inadequate preparations have been made for 1993 in relation to the liberalisation of accounts and the forfeiture of a large amount of money in regard to DIRT. This gives us in the Labour Pary reason for concern and we have seen nothing as yet which would allay our fears. I do not think we can be complacent about the security of our existing financial institutions and their strength in the domestic marketplace.

However, having said that, in this instance pension funds and other funds managed by trustees require the widest possible range of choice in a very competitive market. I hope that the provision of these additional funds, ABN, AMRO Bank NV and the others, as well as those of Irish Life, will be put in place as quickly as possible. The sooner these are brought on-stream the better because of the traditional dominance of the Bank of Ireland in this market. Perhaps the Minister will say how he sees this whole system operating over the next three or four years.

I welcome this order on behalf of the Green Party, Comhaontas Glas. Obviously it is of some small advantage to trustees and other people in the position of looking after other peoples money that a safe haven can be found for it. However, that point has been adequately dealt with by the Minister and the two previous speakers. I should like to address a slightly different aspect of investment, the very urgent need, not just in this country but throughout the world, to channel more investment into environmentally friendly areas. This can be done through investing in the so-called "green funds" and they are, by and large, reasonably green projects. If we do not make a conscious effort to shift our investment from the type of industries we have been setting up, this planet will not have a future.

It is obviously too late to deal with the matter now but, the next time this type of order is laid before the House — I am sure that over the next three years there will be occasion to bring in such an order — the Minister should give serious consideration to including, as a trustee authorised investment, some of the unit linked funds which have a green objective. The Minister would be striking a great blow for the ecology of the planet if he did so.

I thank Deputies Noonan, Quinn and Garland for their contributions. I also thank Deputy Noonan for his support for outlining the criteria.

Comments were made regarding bank loans for new and small businesses. As Deputy Noonan is probably aware, there is a number of schemes to help new and existing businesses. In 1989, in response to a ministerial initiative, commercial banks agreed to provide a sum of up to £10 million to lend money to young entrepreneurs on certain terms. The main feature is that the loans are given at a reduced rate of interest and personal security was not demanded in respect of such loans, which is normally a great difficulty. In our capacity as public representatives we all deal with people who seem to have good projects and enterprises but, unfortunately, cannot secure the necessary finance. Last December, in the context of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress the four associated banks agreed to provide a further £15 million in loans at favourable rates for the creation of small and medium-sized businesses with employment potential. The assessment of individual loan applications is, of course, a matter for the banks. To date, in excess of £9 million has been lent by participating banks to more than 200 projects under these schemes.

In relation to pension funds investing in the economy and real assets, I recently outlined my wishes in that regard to the Irish Association of Pension Funds. I share Deputy Noonan's concern in regard to the amount of wealth we generate from various aspects of our economy regarding funds which were later repatriated, pension funds or profits from indigenous enterprises. We can be pleased that much of that money remains within our economy, you cannot force people to invest here but there is a moral obligation to put forward the argument for keeping those funds within our economy, particularly in view of our high level of unemployment.

(Limerick East): The consultant to whom I referred — he is a professor in Coleraine University — said that the banks are not attracting enough national savings. It is not that there are not schemes, it is said that they will run out of funds. The institutions which are attracting savings will tend to invest in fixed assets — and are doing so at present — rather than in industry. Consequently, there will be a shortage of capital for industry which he argues is emerging at present and will get worse almost immediately. I am not looking for a reply but, if he is correct, there is a major problem which needs to be looked at very quickly.

I will examine that matter. The other problem which the Deputy highlighted is the amount of resources and wealth which we appear to create. I know this is a complicated area; I had the opportunity recently on different occasions to talk to people who control pension funds and to others involved in various trusts. I spoke to officials in the National Treasury Management Agency about the amount of apparent resources we have and what is invested. The report looked at the question of what will happen when exchange controls have gone. They wondered if it would then be more attractive for people to invest outside this State. Nobody has ventured an opinion in this regard but it is a matter of concern. Last week, debating the jobs forum, we spoke about encouraging those who generate wealth in our society to reinvest it in the economy. I know it already happens but we must try to increase such investment.

It has been made clear that the banks are expected by the community to contribute to the development of the national economy. The Government cannot direct the banks into particular lending and investment decisions and there will probably be less control in this regard. However, it is a matter of commercial judgment for the banks. There are objections to banks diversifying their business abroad although successful overseas investment can make a sound contribution to the banks overall operations. Nonetheless, there is a public perception that investment in the domestic economy should be maintained and that the banks should not neglect their primary allegiance to the Irish economy, depositors and clients. This is a valid concern for a Minister for Finance to voice and no doubt the banks will give the matter due consideration.

The trusts are eligible as soon as I sign the order when the Dáil and Seanad give approval. The list of trustee investments is widely available to those who seek it and the making of the order will be published in the media. Deputy Quinn is right in saying that competitiveness is always uneven but I believe the financial institutions are making efforts to rectify this matter, they can do more. It is up to them to act in the first instance. Deputy Quinn referred to the dominance of the Bank of Ireland. A question has been put down on this matter and I will answer it at the appropriate time.

Deputy Garland referred to the privatisation of Irish Life. Irish Life have a range of funds and if they want to invest them in green projects consideration can be given to this. I recently attended a meeting of the ECOFIN Council. I know Deputy Garland is familiar with this because we discussed it previously in the context of an energy tax. The point has been made that money generated from an energy tax should be put into green investment funds. As the Deputy will appreciate, there are many different opinions on this tax, how it would operate and the effects it would have. Many views on this tax were put forward at the ECOFIN Council meeting. The Council of Energy Ministers are also discussing the matter and it will be some time before I can give factual information to the House on the use of funds from an energy tax.

I thank the Deputies who have contributed to the debate.

Question put and agreed to.
The Dáil adjourned at 3.15 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 10 March 1992.
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