Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 May 1992

Vol. 419 No. 3

Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Commission on Criminal Justice System.

Patrick McCartan

Question:

8 Mr. McCartan asked the Minister for Justice if he has considered the recent speech by the President of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors (details supplied) in which he called for the establishment of a commission on the criminal justice system; if he will outline his response to the call; if he will further outline his response to the warnings made regarding political interference with the Gardaí, especially in regard to promotions; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Mr. Flynn

As to the first part of the Deputy's question, I have no plans to establish a general commission of inquiry into the criminal justice system. We have had many and varied committees and commissions which have reported in the recent past on or are currently examining individual aspects of the criminal justice system. Included among these are the Whitaker Committee, which examined the prisons system; the Walsh Committee, which looked at Garda training; the Law Reform Commission, which carries out an ongoing review of our laws; the Committee on Court Practice and Procedure, the Martin Committee on certain aspects of criminal procedure, the Committee on Public Safety and Crowd Control, the interdepartmental group on the administration of justice, the interdepartmental group on urban crime and the Dáil Select Committee on Crime, which has the widest terms of reference of all committees in the justice area and to which the Garda Representative Associations have full access.

As I said in my reply to the speech mentioned in the question, my approach to updating the criminal law is to deal with the matter on a systematic basis, affording priority to these areas most in need of review. In line with this approach, I have announced the setting up of a broadly based advisory group on the investigation and prosecution of serious fraud.

The very many criminal law measures enacted in recent years and the other proposals announced for implementation in the Programme for Government, together with other initiatives taken, give clear evidence of consistent progress in this whole area.

In relation to Garda promotions, following extensive negotiations at the Garda Conciliation Council, at which the Garda Representative Bodies were represented, a new set of Garda Síochána (Promotion) Regulations were introduced in 1987. These regulations provide for a Promotion Advisory Council, on which the Garda associations are represented. This council was given the functions of reviewing and advising the Commissioner in relation to promotions, competitions for promotions and the systems and procedures for promotions. I would have thought that these regulations meet the reasonable expectations of the members of the force as regards such systems and procedures. In any event, the provisions of the regulations enable the associations to propose further changes which they consider desirable.

I reject out of hand any suggestion that personnel are selected for promotion on the basis of political considerations rather than on ability and suitability for the higher post. Promotions to ranks in the force below Assistant Commissioner are based on internal competitions in which neither I nor my Department play any part. These competitions are conducted in accordance with the terms of the 1987 regulations to which I have already referred. In the case of promotion to the Assistance Commissioner rank, the Garda Commissioner, following procedures prescribed in those regulations which involve formal consultations with the Deputy and Assistance Commissioner at a meeting specially convened for the purpose, puts forward a name which is then sent to Government for approval and invariably receives Government approval. Promotions to Deputy Commissioner and Commissioner rank are made by the Government. With the exception of a few instances in the distant past, all promotions to Deputy Commissioner and Commissioner have been made from within the Commissioner ranks and following consultations between the Minister and the current Garda Commissioner.

Mr. McCartan

In regard to the first part of my question, I put it to the Minister that the views of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors echo very much those of the primary State officer dealing with the criminal justice system, namely, the Director of Public Prosecutions, that there is need for a fundamental review of the organisation of our criminal justice system and its operation? Would the Minister agree that it is time we examined the fundamental way in which we order our justice system rather than merely have a point by point reform of certain aspects of the law? Furthermore, would the Minister accept that recent surveys have shown there is widespread public dissatisfaction, if not disquiet, at the way in which our courts systems operate, which is linked directly to the inability of the justice system as at present organised to respond meaningfully to the crimes being perpetrated within the community? Would the Minister agree to reconsider the importance of this idea given the level of support on the part of people with a direct, active involvement in the system, namely senior Garda on the one hand and, on the other, the Director of Public Prosecutions?

Mr. Flynn

I suppose in an ideal world a Minister might like to accommodate that kind of thinking but in the circumstances in which I find myself I want to get on with the business. I am reluctant to tie up enormous numbers of staff in what is really a consolidation process — which is one element of it — which would involve an enormous amount of time. Indeed, I asked deliberately about that. I was involved in the passage of a consolidation Bill as Minister for the Environment; it involved a huge effort but it was worth it.

Mr. McCartan

It would be worth it here too.

Mr. Flynn

I accept that in principle but we have much to do before we become involved in that. In the immediate preceding few years quite a number of Acts have been amended and brought to bear in the criminal law area. For example, the Deputy will remember the legislation on incitement to hatred, receiving of stolen property, firearms, abolition of the death penalty, rape and sexual assault, forensic testing and criminal damage to property. Two other Bills have been published dealing with criminal evidence and telephone tapping, one is before this House and the other before the Seanad.

I have some proposals I am very anxious to get on with, quite a number of Bills which I am sure the Deputy would welcome also. I am sure the Deputy would agree with me that resources should be fully utilised in the areas where we would achieve the best results. For example, I am giving confiscation of the proceeds of crime high priority on my list, an Extradition Bill, another on juvenile justice — about which we spoke here and which I am very anxious to get on the Statute Book. In addition, there will be legislation on criminal insanity, suicide and the miscarriage of justice. Therefore, the Deputy will realise there is a great deal of legislation pending. I am endeavouring to manage the resources in the law section as best I can. When much of this work has been completed then the matter about which the Deputy spoke can be considered.

Mr. McCartan

On the other point of political interference, would the Minister not accept that so long as the appointments of the Commissioner and Assistance Commissioner of the Garda Síochána are made by Government, the Government are leaving themselves open to accusation of political considerations being involved? Would the Minister not accept that the proposals in the earlier part of my question and suggested at the recent conference, that the establishment of a policy authority independent of the Department, with its own budget, with the Commissioner and Assistance Commissioner — as is the case with other public servants — being appointed by an independent commission of appointment should be considered? Would he agree that until such time as they are in place it will be all too easy for people to make the accusation that there are overriding political considerations in the appointments to these very important offices?

Mr. Flynn

One sometimes hears such comments. I should like to put it on the record — I think it is accepted by everybody both inside and outside this House — that there is no political interference in the promotion regime as far as the Garda Síochána are concerned. For example, the Commissioner sets up the interview boards for all ranks up to superintendent and chief superintendent. There is no nominee of the Minister or of the Department of Justice on those interview boards. In fact sometimes we do not even know when these things take place. The Commissioner conducts his business; the names of candidates for promotion are accepted up to a certain level in the ranks and so far as superintendents and chief superintendents are concerned their names come to me by way of recommendation from the Commissioner. I, or the Minister concerned, go to Government to have them ratified. For example, if a candidate's name appears fourteenth on the list, the Deputy can bet the preceding 13 have already been appointed. That is the way it is and I am stating it here publicly. Therefore, I promise the Deputy that there is no political interference. As far as the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána is concerned, yes, the Government appoint him and the Deputy Commissioner but, over the years that I have been associated with business here, those candidates have come from the ranks of Assistant Commissioner. It is very important that the State should be in a position to nominate the Commissioner of the Garda Siochána, thereby providing that very important link between the security of the State and the Executive.