Vol. 422 No. 4
11 Mr. Kemmy asked the Minister for Finance if his attention has been drawn to (a) the staff shortage crisis in the Houses of the Oireachtas and (b) the undermining of democracy in this State which this constitutes; whether he will agree to request each large Government Department to second two persons, and small Government Departments to second one person to the staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas on a temporary basis; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
My attention has not been drawn to a staff shortage crisis in the Houses of the Oireachtas and I am not aware of any such crisis.
The management services unit of my Department, at the insistent request of the Ceann Comhairle, recently carried out a detailed management review of the Office of the Houses of the Oireachtas. Their report, which has been available in draft form to the Office of the Houses of the Oireachtas for some time and which covered the staffing of the Office, exclusive of statutory officers, does not lend any support to the view that the Office was understaffed.
While I am aware that there have been certain developments in relation to the operation of the Houses since the completion of that report, the staffing implications of those changes either have been or are being addressed with the authorities in Leinster House in the light of the outcome of the review carried out by the management services unit.
Is the Minister aware that I received a telephone call from the Department of the Taoiseach last week to the effect that the Taoiseach had instructed the Minister for Finance to make extra resources available to the reporting service of the Houses of the Oireachtas because of an explicit staff shortage, specifically in relation to the transcribing and editing of the committee in which we both participated? Is the Minister now saying that what I was told by the Private Secretary of the Department of the Taoiseach is a lie?
The word "lie" should not be used.
A Parliamentary inaccuracy. Perhaps the Minister would like to answer the question?
The issue which Deputy Quinn raised — and which he raised on a number of mornings on the Order of Business — created concern, not just to him but to me. He made a valid point and I would not like to argue the industrial relations aspect of that issue apart from saying that it has been resolved. I welcome the fact that Deputy Quinn highlighted the matter because it probably helped in its resolution. I do not accept that the issue related to a staff shortage and I will not go into the practices or numbers of staff in that area. In some of the other committees in which I have been involved I have resolved the issues amicably.
We are about to adjourn for the summer and I do not wish to raise unduly the temper of this House but is the Minister seriously saying that he, as Minister for Finance with responsibility for the public service, is not aware of staff shortages when officials of his Department are telling the Whips that committees cannot be established in this House explicitly because of staff shortages? What is going on in the Minister's Department? Are they telling him the truth?
I do not wish to argue with the Deputy. He will be aware that an issue arose in connection with our Special Committee on the Finance Bill. When the Members of this House moved to the Seanad we were told we were in a different building even though we were Members of this House and the staffing services would not move with us. I would remind the House that I have been dealing with industrial relations for a long time and in my view that is not staff shortages. This morning I met the chairman of the Joint Committee on Employment and I understood there was a staffing problem in relation to a grade and an allowance of staff and that issue has been resolved. Will the Deputy tell me what particular committee or area he has in mind?
Deputy Quinn rose.
Can I bring in Deputy Flanagan?
I give way to Deputy Quinn.
Thank you, Deputy, I appreciate that. Since the Minister is not aware would it be in order for me to make him so aware? Is he not aware, for example, that because of staff shortages no indexing of reports has taken place since the late eighties in relation to the Library services with the result that our research facilities are seriously curtailed? Is the Minister aware of staff shortages on various committees in this House as has been indicated to the Whips of the parties? Since the Minister appears to be partially aware may I tell him——
Questions please rather than submitting information.
May I ask the Minister if he is now aware that the staffing of the Joint Committee on Employment has only come about because of the specific secondment from three Government Departments of staff to make that committee operational? It is explicitly in the spirit of that gesture from three Government Departments — Labour, Industry and Commerce and Finance — that I put down my question in the first instance. Will the Minister now consider, in view of his being informed of the staff shortage, requesting the larger Departments to second on a temporary basis two people and the smaller Departments at least one person to the Houses of the Oireachtas? Will he at least admit that he is now aware of a staff shortage in this House?
I have addressed the problems that have been brought to my attention in the Joint Committee on Employment. I would remind Deputy Quinn that it has always been the practice in the House when new committees are set up to second staff from Departments. I do not accept that what I consider certain inflexibilities are staff shortages.
That is a different issue on which I would take an entirely different view.
Am I to believe my ears in what I have heard?
Exactly.
Did I hear the Minister for Finance say there was no problem in this regard?
No crisis.
Is the Minister not aware that the crisis is such that this matter is item No. 1 for debate at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and that that is the extent of the problem? Does the Minister accept that the Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities lost two members of their staff recently because of pressure of work in other committees? Is the Minister aware of the fact that offices such as the Editorial Office, the Journal Office and the Bills Office are stretched to the limit and that staff have been in the General Office until 4 a.m. dealing with the work? The Minister has a duty to at least investigate the matter and report to the House before the end of this session because this is very much a crisis.
I have not only investigated the two areas which were brought to my attention, relating to two different committees, but I have resolved them. I dealt with the matter relating to the Joint Committee on Employment before Question Time today. I have given my view on the other issues raised by Deputy Quinn. In any areas I have dealt with over the past seven or eight months, and over a number of years as Minister for Labour when I had difficulties I have attempted to resolve them. I want to make it clear that I see a difference in some offices. I am well aware there are some offices in the House where the staff are totally overworked. Perhaps, these issues should be looked at in their totality.
Deputy Quinn rose.
I want to bring in Deputy Noonan. I want to bring this matter to finality and, perhaps, we will have a final question from Deputy Quinn.
(Limerick East): Is the Minister aware of the widespread discontent among those of us who took part in the Special Committee to process the Committee Stage of the Finance Bill, that the report of its proceedings has not yet been published? Can the Minister indicate a date for publication of that report? I put it to him that those of us who participated feel ill-used and black-guarded by the Department of Finance that we were conned into a Special Committee arrangement, the proceedings of which have not yet been published, under the guise of Dáil reform. The professions or anybody else who want to find out the details of the Finance Bill do not have the report of that committee available to them. In previous years when Committee Stage was taken in this House the report was ready four days afterwards.
That is the same point that was raised by Deputy Quinn. I agree with Deputy Noonan that if Committee Stage had been taken in this House the report would have been available but because we moved to another room the report was not available. I think that was a disgrace.
The Minister is responsible for that.
I was not.
(Limerick East): I am not entering into any more Special Committee arrangements.
It is with the utmost restraint I am trying to control my anger as to the quality of the reply, in terms of its accuracy, that we have received from the Minister. With respect, my question to him was — and I would ask him to listen to it again — if his attention has been drawn to the staff shortage crisis in the Houses of the Oireachtas. He said his attention had been drawn only to specific cases. My question relates to the staff shortage crisis in the Houses of the Oireachtas. Who made what inquiries in his Department? Who consulted with the Clerk of the Dáil, with his own good offices and the Whips of the various parties? The Minister's reply is totally inadequate. If I did not believe the Minister was committed to democracy I would have the gravest suspicions. May I ask the Minister to tear up the reply because it has been an insult to this House and commit himself to rectifying the gross deficiencies that occur in the operation of this House between now and the end of this session and to come back and speak directly with the Whips of the various parties? We cannot do our work in this House if we are being hand-tripped by the Department of Finance.
I would certainly welcome a discussion with the Whips but it would need to be a broad discussion and about more than just numbers.
What does that mean?
That is a rather vague reply.
I am calling Question No. 12. We cannot have a debate on this matter now.
I do not think we should argue out industrial relations issues in the House. They are not relevant.
Order, I have called Question No. 12.
I happen to know all the facts.
We will see.
Thanks for telling us.
I would be glad to talk to the Whips about them.
Why did the Minister not offer that?
I did at the outset.
Please, I think the Chair should be obeyed.
