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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 15 Oct 1992

Vol. 423 No. 6

Ceisteanna-Questions. Oral Answers. - Civil Legal Aid Scheme.

Pat Rabbitte

Question:

7 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Minister for Justice the average waiting time for consultations at each of the Legal Aid Centres in Dublin; the steps, if any, he is taking to ensure that waiting times at these and other centres are reduced; when it is intended to implement the commitment given in the Review of the Programme for Government to put the scheme of civil legal aid and advice on a statutory basis; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

I am advised by the Legal Aid Board that the waiting periods for applicants for legal aid in the various law centres in Dublin are as follows: Aston's Place, a two to three months' wait; Gardiner Street, a 12 months' wait; Ormond Quay, a six months' wait; and Tallaght, a five to six months' wait.

The new law centre in Finglas is being fitted out at the moment with a view to it being fully operational by the end of the month. Work on the fitting out of the Clondalkin centre will commence as soon as the legal arrangements relating to the acquisition of the premises have been completed. The Legal Aid Board expect the Clondalkin law centre to come on-stream within two to three months. When both of these law centres are in operation the centre at Aston's Place will close.

I am examining proposals received from the Legal Aid Board for a further increase in the number of solicitors and of law centres. Decisions as to increased resources will be taken in the context of next year's Estimates, having regard to the availability of financial resources and the overall situation with regard to the public finances. Also, the board are seeking other possible ways of improving the level of service to clients which would not have implications for the Exchequer.

With regard to a statutory scheme of civil legal aid and advice, it is the intention to publish legislation to place the scheme on a statutory basis in accordance with the commitment given in the revised Programme for Government, that is before the end of 1993. The timing of such publication will depend on the progress of other priority items in that programme. I should also say that the absence of a statutory scheme has not in any way hindered the operation of the Legal Aid Board in the administration of the scheme. The problems faced by the board, almost since their inception, have had to do with financial difficulties in the wider context of the public finances. Even if a statutory scheme were in place, the development of the scheme — something we all would like to see happen as soon as possible — would still have been restricted, for those same reasons.

Has the Minister any views to offer on the level of the service in Dublin where women subjected to marital violence have to wait an average of six months for legal aid? I note that at a recently convened conference on this topic the Minister gave assurances that he was anxious to protect women in these situations. Would he not concede that the most effective relief available to women in these circumstances is easy, ready and cost free access to the courts to pursue their cases? Would he also accept that vast areas of the country have no legal aid service whatsoever? Can he advise the House when he will address the major gaps in this service throughout the country in his reforms?

The question is confined to Dublin only and I cannot allow an extension of that.

Perhaps we are over-concentrating.

I accept that there are delays. I should like to see the scheme developed in the way the Deputy suggests so that people would have quick and ready access to the courts. Of course, much of the difficulty experienced by the board in recent years appears to stem from the development in the area of family law following the status of children Act and the judicial separation and family law measures. Even though we have increased the numbers of solicitors and centres we still do not seem to be able to catch up with the increased demand. The service is demand driven.

When the centres in Clondalkin and Finglas are in operation there will be a total of 16 centres. There are 39 serving solicitors at present. There is one vacancy and I am pressing to have it filled within the next few weeks. There will be a full staff complement then. As resources are provided I should like to think we will be able to expand the services. I agree with the basic concept the Deputy has articulated, that we should endeavour to improve the services if and when we can.

Is the Minister aware that the civil legal aid scheme, in effect, is known as a woman's legal aid scheme because 90 per cent of cases are brought by women? Furthermore, is the Minister aware that the figures he has given us indicate gross hardship for many wives? Is he aware that hundreds of women, with no knowledge of the law are going to court and representing themselves because there is no other source of basic legal information available to them? Would he not accept there is a need for some emergency system to fill the gap until, as he says himself, he reflects on the matter and takes action? There is a serious crisis here. I would appeal to the Minister to implement some emergency system to deal with present cases.

I have honestly given the House some of the waiting periods in respect of some of the Dublin centres. Of course, it is not as bad in other areas. For instance, in Dundalk there is a one month delay but, in places like Limerick, it is three months.

The Minister is not allowed to comment on the position outside of Dublin.

The question deals specifically with Dublin. The Chair must have regard to that fact.

I know there are no problems in Castlebar.

I did not call Deputy Byrne. I call Deputy Shatter.

I thought Deputies were interested in the Castlebar scene where there is a three months delay.

I am glad to welcome Deputy Quinn to the Chamber since the Labour Party did not bother to turn up for questions nominated for priority. Perhaps he will not impede the answering of serious questions by the Minister.

Deputy Shatter manages to maintain that charm to such a great degree.

Would the Minister not agree that all the high-sounding phrases in his address to the women's conference ring extremely hollow because of the basic way women can secure protection when victims of violence, through the courts and with legal help? Would the Minister not agree that not merely in Dublin, but nationwide, the legal aid system at present fails utterly to provide the legal assistance women require? Would the Minister not acknowledge and agree that until this Government acknowledge the need in this area this State will remain at risk of being brought again before the European Court — under the Convention on Human Rights — for failure to protect family life and women?

I accept what Deputy Fennell said, that women have need of this service. It would be my hope that, with the opening of the new centres I have mentioned, the recruitment of the extra solicitor, along with the possibility of new part-time centres being opened, the service will be improved and progressed. The Deputy has my support in that respect. I have expressed this to her before.

There is still need for an emergency system.

I know there is need for more resources in this area. I should like to think we might be able to get them. At least the Deputy can see that we are making some progress. Admittedly, it is slow and the waiting lists are not acceptable but we are hoping to provide more resources. Unfortunately, it appears that whatever resources we provide — because of the continuous demand in the very areas Deputy Fennell mentioned — there appears to be a never ending fight to keep pace with continuing demands.

The Minister has given the House very disturbing figures. A similar question was tabled in June last when the reply was to the effect that the centre at Ormond Quay had an eight to ten-week waiting list, now extended to six months, which is outrageous. Is the Minister aware that organisations like Women's Aid, which deal almost exclusively with battered wives, now have no faith in the Legal Aid Board and in fact do not now refer any battered wives to such centres because the waiting lists are so long and because at least two of the three centres have already been closed to anything other than emergency cases? Does the Minister need to await some unfortunate woman being battered to death before gaining access to the legal aid centres before he will provide the necessary resources?

The cases to which the Deputy refers do have priority rating in so far as these law centres are concerned. As resources improve, as the number of law centres increases, more and more people will be attended to within a shorter period. There is an emergency way of dealing with such cases, of which the Deputy is well aware, in that the very cases to which he referred do receive priority rating in so far as receiving attention is concerned. I am saying to the Deputy I wish it were a shorter waiting period.

On the second aspect of the matter, when the Minister responded with regard to the statutory basis, would he agree that the single greatest delay in introducing this legislation is the departmental fear not in dealing with the administrative aspects of the services but in giving people a legislative right to such legal services? Would he agree that the reason he is not moving forward on this is simply because he does not want to incorporate in legislation people's right to a legal aid service?

The answer to that is that there can be no autonomy for bodies with staffing implications. Accordingly, there would have to be strict financial control irrespective of whichever method was adopted. I might add that even if one incorporated it in a statute the principal consideration of resources and money would still be involved. The Deputy is quite right in maintaining that it exists in other places on a statutory basis but they have been trying to row it back ever since because of the enormous cost implications. I am not advancing that as an excuse. I am merely saying to the Deputy that, irrespective of whether it is done on a statutory basis, or on the basis now obtaining here, that consideration will have to be taken into account and the Deputy knows that.

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