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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 Jan 1993

Vol. 425 No. 5

Nomination of Taoiseach (Resumed).

Atairgeadh an Cheist: "Go h-ainmeoidh Dáil Éireann an Teachta Albert Reynolds a cheaptha ag an Uachtarán mar Thaoiseach".
Question again proposed: "That Dáil Éireann nominate Deputy Albert Reynolds for appointment by the President as Taoiseach".

I propose that the House shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday next.

I am glad to report to the House that substantial progress has been made towards the completion of negotiations on the formation of a Government. There is still a number of very important and urgent matters that require immediate attention and some further inquiries by the leader of the Labour Party and myself. Discussions are also continuing, particularly on the difficulties facing any Government with regard to this year's budget, about which all party leaders have been informed. If everything goes according to plan and remaining matters are satisfactorily concluded, appropriate meetings can be held by both parties within the next few days to consider an agreed programme for Government. If it were approved, we would then be in a position to form a Government by early next week.

Over the past two months, since the dissolution of the 26th Dáil, effective Government has been provided. Progress has been made on a number of major issues, the settling of Structural and Cohesion Funds at Edinburgh to the end of the century, fisheries, homelessness, and, in the last few days, the removal of impediments to access to certain Government documents over 30 years old. Our newly appointed EC Commissioner, Mr. Pádraig Flynn, who takes up office today, has been given a major portfolio in the social policy area, which covers unemployment, an issue of direct relevance and the highest priority to Ireland as well as to Europe as a whole.

Looking back, 1992 was a year when Ireland succeeded in holding its own. Despite international recession in Britain and the US, despite the currency turbulence, we succeeded in maintaining positive growth of the order of 2.5 per cent of GDP. We estimate that employment also remained steady. Consumption grew by 3 per cent. Inflation ended the year at 2.3 per cent giving an average of 3 per cent for the year as a whole. As the Exchequer returns will show, we succeeded despite international difficulties in keeping the budget broadly on course for the sixth year in a row. This enabled us to take action last month to even out somewhat the budgetary situation as between 1992 and 1993, by bringing forward to 1992 some of the special pay increases and other items amounting to almost £100 million due in 1993. Even allowing for this, the outturn last year is well within the Maastrticht parameters. The pound has also performed well since the removal of exchange controls, which is not surprising, since we have the largest balance of payments surplus in the OECD as well as one of the lowest inflation rates.

During 1992, which was my first year as Taoiseach, we have managed the economy efficiently and effectively in the prevailing circumstances, which were the toughest for a long time, with major economies in recession or moving into recession.

Many other countries over the past two years have experienced a substantial deterioration both in employment and in their public finances, and were not able to defend their currencies last autumn. While we have also experienced a substantial increase in unemployment, which will be a major preoccupation of the next Government, we have succeeded so far in maintaining intact the basis for rapid recovery, once conditions start to improve.

This new year of 1993 will pose its own challenges. In budgetary terms, we have to meet once off costs of adjustment to the European Single Market. The really major challenge, which will be the principal task of the next Government, must be to tackle the problem of structural unemployment.

That will be a change.

The country has not suffered in any way from the relatively short delay in forming a Government. Indeed, rarely if ever has there been so much intensive and constructive political activity in the weeks between 22 December and 5 January.

Every party in this House has been given the opportunity since the election to contribute to the formation of a Government, which is why the process has taken somewhat longer. If there were no prospect of a new Government being formed, there might be legitimate cause for concern, but that is not the position. Indeed, efforts to form a Government seem to be making rather better progress than efforts to form an Opposition. No party in this House wishes for another general election, and nor, of course, do the Irish people.

It was right that after the election all options should have been explored. Indeed, my party took a back seat initially in order to facilitate this. We had every right, indeed a national duty, to respond to the invitation to enter into discussions with Labour, after other attempts had failed to make progress. During the election the Fine Gael leader made the point several times that only his party had firmly excluded a coalition with Fianna Fáil, and asked people to support Fine Gael on that basis. Having made that point at the time, it is difficult to see how with any consistency he can have any complaint about the talks now taking place between Fianna Fáil or Labour, or claim that somehow or other the Irish people have been misled. Indeed, of the formations that have not been ruled out by other parties, the Government now under discussion is by far the strongest and most credible combination, and it involves parties, which together have the support of nearly 60 per cent of the electorate.

Since our discussions started, we have used the time constructively to build a common platform that will address all the major issues both social and economic over the next few years. It is far better to build something that will last, that will provide not only stable but effective Government over the next five years, than to cobble together hastily some deal, which will not stand the test of time and the inevitable external pressures and difficulties that will arise.

There has never been a Fianna Fáil-Labour Government. We are seeking to put together a new type of partnership Government that has not been seen before here. It will initiate change, and it will also respond to the changes in Irish society, reflecting new needs and realities in the way that the work of the Government is organised. We are continuing to put together a very ambitious and exciting programme for Government, but there are, as I have said, still a number of outstanding issues that remain to be resolved.

Fine Gael does not agree that the Dáil should simply adjourn today for a week to give Deputy Dick Spring extra time to persuade his followers to make Deputy Albert Reynolds Taoiseach again. As Deputy Spring told us very often recently, there are 166 Deputies in this Dáil, but most of those Deputies are now silent and apparently silenced backbenchers of the Fianna Fáil and Labour Parties.

The Deputy is wrong yet again.

We will hear from the Deputy on budget day.

Deputy Bruton is drawing blood. Keep it up, boy.

Deputy John Bruton, without interruption.

The credibility of these backbenchers, indeed their own very political future, looks like being sacrificed so that a few of their colleagues may enjoy the prestige and comforts of office. These backbenchers should speak now before this deal is put in place. There will be no point in giving off-the-record press briefings in a few month's time saying that they did not really agree to this or that. This is the time and the place to speak, if these Deputies have anything to say.

I do not believe that a combination of the Fianna Fáil and Labour Parties in Government will be good for this country. For a start, this combination will have an unhealthily large majority in this House. This will inevitably lead to political tensions. Up to 30 of the new Government Deputies will know that it will be literally impossible for them to be re-elected. This will impose immense strains on the cohesion of the Government. A Coalition Government is never easy. Communications between the backbenchers and Ministers, across party lines, are fraught with immense potential for misunderstanding. Where the Deputies come from parties that are in direct competition, the potential for misunderstanding is all the greater. Consider the situation of a number of constituencies where, if this proposed Government takes office, all the TDs will be Government TDs. Is that healthy?

Already the size of this majority is prompting some of the more naive or arrogant promoters of the project to talk in terms of a Government for ten years. Such people should not take the Irish people for granted. The record of survival of those who talk in such heroic time-frames is not good.

I believe that these two parties will feed off one another's negative features. The Labour Party has an over-optimistic belief in the capacity of State intervention to transform peoples' lives for the better. Fianna Fáil, as a party long used to office, has a strong sense of the importance of political patronage in national life. Put these two together — over-optimism and patronage — and there is enormous potential for waste, and even for scandal.

I see immense potential for well intentioned State interventions being perverted into favouritism. That is exactly why we have had the need for a beef tribunal, for a Greencore investigation, why we have had problems with Celtic Helicopters, and why there has had to be a Telecom investigation. Disciplinary codes and obligatory disclosures will not stop this happening. These codes may well deter honest people who have a legitimate concern for their privacy from entering public life or from doing business with the State; but such codes will not stop those who have an ill-intent and feel that they can make an extra profit, or secure an unfair advantage.

Now, it seems, we may not even be able to investigate such allegations of scandal if they arise, by means of tribunals established by this House. In future such tribunals may not be able to function because not only Ministers, but now Deputies who make grave allegations may well try to claim constitutional privilege to deny relevant information to the tribunal. The two parties who have both hidden behind constitutional privilege at the beef tribunal are now getting together to form a Government. That is not a very good prospect for this country.

The beef tribunal should be left out of this debate, for obvious reasons.

This general election was caused by what happened at the beef tribunal.

The House set up the tribunal and has no right to interfere in its affairs.

We are talking about the election of a Taoiseach which arises because of what happened at the beef tribunal.

I have stated on many occasions that the matter is sub judice.

This proposed new Government will involve a combination of the two political forces in this country which are, in the truest meaning of the term, the most profoundly conservative. The forces of public and private sector monopoly will, I believe, get unremitting support from this new Government which is in prospect.

The solutions to the unemployment problem that will be brought forward by such a Government will be influenced by the thinking of the 1960s and 1970s, not that of the 1990s. Despite radically different starting points both parties share a common and, in my view, mistaken belief in the virtue of State capital spending as a motor for the economy. Both parties have a long standing fascination with large projects, involving vast sums of money, massive engineering designs and huge potential for cost overruns. I believe that the Structural Funds of the European Community will not be best used by this particular combination of political parties. The money will continue to be used in the most traditional fashion possible. It will be poured into Stateoriginated projects and schemes which will create little short term employment and no long term employment.

I believe that Ireland needs an entirely different approach to economic policy. Economic policy in Ireland should be driven by a desire to liberate the talents of individuals, of small companies, of local co-operatives. It is not the State or its agencies, but the creativity of individuals and small groups, that will solve Ireland's endemic economic problems. Rather than use EC funds to bankroll projects devised by engineers in the Government service, or engineers in the private sector firms that live off Government contracts, these funds should be used to reduce the cost of creating a job by small and medium sized enterprises. I believe that a reduction in employers' PRSI would yield a much bigger permanent growth in employment than all the capital projects on the shelves of all Government Departments and agencies. Yet this will not be the approach of the two parties now intent on forming a Government together. They will continue the old wasteful ways — schemes and projects handed down from the centre.

One of the most interesting analyses of the recent general election came from Professor Michael Laver of UCC. He said that the election—

gave political expression to huge social changes that had taken place in Ireland in recent years. The trend that underlines all those is the increasing importance of towns and cities in the social fabric of Irish life.

Ireland has urbanised in a way that is needlessly divided on class lines. Professor Laver described this new urban Ireland as one where—

the housing market ensures incredible social segregation. The rich live with the rich, the poor with the poor. Their neighbours tend to do the same job that they do, or to join them on the same dole queue.

This class divided urbanised Ireland is not healthy. It leads to alienation among the have-nots, and smugness and an absence of a sense of roots among the better off. That state of affairs is aggravated by the divide between our social welfare and tax systems which artificially divides society into one group of people who receive money and another group who feel that they contribute all of the money.

These needless divisions in our society can only be removed by political action but I believe that a Fianna Fáil-Labour Coalition will only aggravate the position. Labour's commitment to public housing, rather than to more integrated and flexible solutions to homelessness, will create a new crop of class divided housing estates on the edges of our towns and cities.

The clientelist approach to welfare policy of both parties which keeps the tax and social welfare systems separate will ensure that Ireland remains a class divided society, a society failing to achieve its full potential. Radical reform of our tax, social welfare and housing policies, of the kind advocated by Fine Gael for many years, could remove class barriers and help all our people to achieve their full potential. For this and many other reasons, I will strongly oppose this Government.

As far as Fine Gael is concerned, we will do our best to replace this Government at the earliest opportunity. In the meantime we intend to provide the most vigorous and relentless opposition to any Government that has been seen in this House for the past 30 years. We will not allow the smallness of our numbers to deter us from contesting every line of every Government Bill and every Government proposal to tax and spend. This Government may have the largest majority in the history of the State; we will guarantee that it will also have the best Opposition in the history of the State.

Any new entrant to politics who wishes to make his or her mark has now no hope of doing so on the Government side of the House. I would hope, therefore, that those young people who want to shape genuine change here through political life will see membership of the Fine Gael Party as the most effective way for them to make their contribution during the next five years.

Before the Labour Party backbenchers make Deputy Albert Reynolds Taoiseach again next week they should take the time to look back at what their party said before the election about the sort of Government the country needed. Deputy Dick Spring, in the Dáil on 5 November, spoke quite openly about the decision that the Labour Party would have to make after the election. He said — all these quotations are taken from volume 425, columns 61-68, of the Official Report——

Quote it in full.

The quotes are very interesting and the Deputy should read them.

The Labour Party Deputies should take their medicine, now.

This is bitter.

It is not intended to be, it is just factual.

To swallow, I mean.

Deputy Dick Spring, in the Dáil on 5 November, spoke quite openly about the decision the Labour Party would have to make after the election. In fairness, he kept his options open. He said:

The choices we will make after the election, if choices must be made, will be based on policies, on a commitment to integrity and standards and on effectiveness.

It is only fair that the Labour Party should honestly examine its proposed link with Fianna Fáil in the light of those well chosen criteria selected by Deputy Spring — policies, integrity and standards and effectiveness. These are the criteria on which he is now prepared to put Deputy Albert Reynolds back in office as Taoiseach.

Let us take policies first. In his speech of 5 November, Deputy Spring highlighted the unemployment issue. He said that it was the issue which "pinpoints more than any other the weakness of an economy without justice". To tackle the unemployment problem he went on to call for a "radical overhaul of Government structures, a radical overhaul of taxation, a radical approach to institutional development and radical new policies for reorienting all economic efforts in the direction of an all out attack on unemployment".

I do not believe that Fianna Fáil is capable of this and before the election Deputy Spring did not think so either. In fact, his very next words in his speech of 5 November were a direct condemnation of Fianna Fáil on this very issue of unemployment. He said, in regard to radical measures on unemployment, that "no such policies are forthcoming from this Government". He went on to say that it was the "Opposition parties (plural, thus obviously including Fine Gael) senior Church leaders and the groups representing the unemployment who are forcing the agenda on unemployment". Yet, when it comes to forming a Government Deputy Spring seems to prefer to co-operate with Fianna Fáil rather than with the very Opposition parties which he admitted before the election were forcing the agenda on unemployment.

Queer bedfellows.

The Labour Party believes also that the public sector has an important role to play in economic development. In his speech of 5 November the Deputy said, that the "market doctrine is not the answer for a relatively late developing economy such as Ireland. State intervention is required to build strong indigenous industry for the decades ahead". He added that "Labour stand for a strongly interventionist role for the State in industrial policy".

The Deputy had severe difficulties with that.

There is nothing new here. This has long been Labour Party policy but the question is, how do these views square with making Deputy Albert Reynolds Taoiseach again?

On 16 September 1987, Deputy Albert Reynolds gave his views on these subjects to the Irish Press. He said:

I am not an interventionist. I loathe it when Governments have to intervene in the marketplace.

In Deputy Reynolds' own words, he loathes it. There does not seem to be much common ground with the Labour Party and Deputy Spring was well aware of these views of Deputy Reynolds because they were re-published as recently as 24 October.

I have highlighted just two areas where there are quite marked policy differences between Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party — unemployment and the issue of State intervention. As far as the Fine Gael Party is concerned, we strongly agree with the Labour Party that radical transformation is needed in the economy if the unemployment issue is to be tackled. Even Fine Gael's most severe critics would agree that this party over the past two years has been more industrious than most in producing radical and new ideas to tackle the unmployment problem.

As far as State intervention is concerned, the Fine Gael Party has repeatedly shown itself open to new approaches to partnership between the State and private sectors. I was involved in pioneering the joint venture between NET and the ICI and, at the urging of the Labour Party, we established a new body to provide State investment in new business ventures, namely, NADCORP. Deputy Reynolds, in Government, abolished this body and his decision was strongly condemned by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions.

Let me return now to the criteria which the Labour Party said it would use in deciding with whom to co-operate in Government. I remind the House that these were policies — I have dealt with those — a commitment to integrity and standards and effectiveness. Let me now deal with the issue of integrity and standards.

I do not think I could improve on Deputy Spring's own words in describing Fianna Fáil's position on issues of integrity and standards. On 5 November 1992, exactly two months ago, he said, in reference to Fiann Fáil, that:

I believe one political party in this House has gone so far down the road of blindness to standards, and of blindness to the people they are supposed to represent, that it is impossible to see how anyone could support them in the future without seeing them first undergo the most radical transformation.

Yes, this is the very party, Fianna Fáil, that exactly two months later Deputy Spring seems to want to put back into Government for another four years even though it is already six years in office and in that six years has left behind it a trail of scandals unparalleled in recent Irish history.

The Labour Party does have a high regard for the integrity of the public service. On many occasions it has stood up for the public service when it was the subject of criticism. It has, in my view rightly, frequently defended the integrity of public servants. In view of this concern they should have a close look at Deputy Reynolds' record and what he has said in regard to his dealings with public servants in regard to export credit insurance before deciding to make him Taoiseach again.

For example, Mr. Joe Timbs has testified under oath at the Tribunal of Inquiry into the Beef Processing Industry that, at a meeting between the then Minister, Deputy Albert Reynolds, Mr. Timbs and Mr. Gerry Donnelly of the Department of Industry and Commerce on 21 October 1988, the Minister gave Mr. Timbs specific instructions to inform Goodman and Hibernia that they were getting an extra £80 million and £20 million in export insurance cover respectively.

I have asked the Deputy to desist from such references.

A minute of that meeting by Mr. Gerry Donnelly backs up Mr. Timbs' evidence.

I have asked the Deputy to desist from such references.

These are passing references only, a Cheann Comhairle. Yet Deputy Albert Reynolds told the beef tribunal he had "no recollection of telling Mr. Timbs to communicate my views or decision to AIBP or Hibernia or anybody else".

In view of the fact that both Deputy Albert Reynolds and the officials concerned were giving testimony under oath, that the amounts of money involved were so enormous, that the State is now being sued on foot of the outcome of that meeting, it is quite alarming that there should be such a conflict of evidence between a Minister and his officials. It places those courageous officials in an invidious position.

There is a long standing convention that officials should not be referred to in the House. The appropriate Minister or Taoiseach is responsible. There should be no reference whatsoever to officials.

It is a matter of public record.

It is a matter of public record.

Deputy Spring also might care to reflect on the fact that in the Dáil in June 1988 a Bill was introduced by Deputy Albert Reynolds, the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, to raise the statutory limit for export credit insurance from £300 million to £500 million. We now know that this legislation primarily was the consequence of the need for extra insurance cover for Iraq. Yet the responsible Minister, Deputy Albert Reynolds, did not tell the Dáil that at the time and made only the most oblique and glancing references to Iraq. Is Deputy Spring satisfied with the frankness and candour of Deputy Albert Reynolds in his dealings with this House on this and other matters?

(Interruptions.)

At least Deputy Bruton can manage more than one page.

It bears repetition: is Deputy Spring satisfied with the frankness and candour of Deputy Albert Reynolds in his dealings with this House on this and other important matters?

The other criterion Deputy Spring said he would use in deciding what form of Government to support was what he called "effectiveness". Again, an examination of Deputy Albert Reynolds' handling of export credit insurance may be helpful to Deputy Spring making up his mind about Deputy Albert Reynolds' effectiveness as a Minister and as a potential Taoiseach of a Government involving the Labour Party. In my view, "effectiveness" involves a Minister taking due care with the way the public money for which he is responsible is used. Huge sums of taxpayers' money were committed in export credit insurance for beef exports by Deputy Albert Reynolds.

Yet, when Deputy Albert Reynolds was questioned by journalists about whether he was aware that much of the beef for which he was giving export credit insurance was or was not Irish, Deputy Reynolds said he did not know that much of the beef exported was not Irish and that it was a revelation to him that most of the rest was bought from EC intervention stocks for which Irish farmers had already been paid and on which any added value to the Irish economy had already been received anyway. In other words, apparently there was no additional benefit to be derived by the Irish economy from granting a huge amount of export credit insurance cover — up to £100 million worth — in this case.

I am sorry the Deputy continues to refer to matters appertaining to the Tribunal of Inquiry into the Beef Processing Industry.

We have always referred to the beef tribunal.

It is not relevant to this debate. I have consistently said the matter was sub judice.

That is a matter of public policy, of public record.

I should like to ask Deputy Spring in due course to say whether he believes that Deputy Albert Reynolds showed "effectiveness"— to use Deputy Springs' term — as Minister on that occasion; that is all. Obviously he is Deputy Springs' favoured candidate for another job now. I believe Deputy Spring will have much to do to convince many Members of this House that in the past three weeks only Deputy Albert Reynolds has undergone "a radical transformation" of the kind the Labour Party now require of anybody with whom they will do business.

Deputy Albert Reynolds does seem to have undergone "a radical transformation" in his attitude to the Labour Party. Before the general election he was telling all and sundry that the Labour Party would bankrupt the country, that they would introduce property taxes, that they would increase the rate of income tax and push borrowing through the roof. Now Deputy Reynolds and the man sitting beside him seem to have discovered numerous unsung virtues in the Labour Party to which this besotted lover was previously blind.

(Interruptions.)

I think it was a case of taking the wrong decision on the rebound. A good part of the same Deputy Albert Reynolds' speech here on 5 November last, and the central theme of the Fianna Fáil election campaign, was to the effect that they wanted single party Government. They sought a mandate for single party Government. Yet, within two weeks of failing to obtain that mandate, the same party is amorously courting coalition with the Labour Party.

I do not believe the Fianna Fáil Party was ever genuinely committed to real partnership in Government with anybody else. The most recent example of their idea of partnership is to be found in the way in which Deputy Albert Reynolds deliberately — and indeed at the request of his then backbenchers, many of whom have now gone — drove his last partners in government out of office. It is hard to be optimistic that a party which brought down the last Coalition Government, then fought a general election opposing the very idea of coalition, would undergo, in the space of two weeks, a radical transformation and become the ideal partner for a dewy-eyed spring bride. We shall see.

Deputy Spring's views on the subject expressed in this House on 5 November last are indeed relevant. This is what Deputy Spring said of Deputy Albert Reynolds almost two months ago to the hour, at column 2313, Vol. 424, of the Official Report:

This is the Taoiseach who promised open Government, but whose Government fought in the Supreme Court to establish a system of Cabinet secrecy that flies in the face of that promise.

This is the Taoiseach who talks about consensus, but who governs behind closed doors.

...but this is the Taoiseach who still refuses to withdraw or substantiate an accusation against a member of his own Cabinet that he has committed a serious criminal offence.

Has the radical transformation extended to a withdrawal of that allegation? I doubt it.

Deputy Spring had even more to say about Deputy Albert Reynolds on that occasion:

This is the Taoiseach who preaches about respect for the institutions of State in this House, but who has lost the ability to conduct himself with dignity in any crisis, as we have seen in recent days.

Deputy Spring will have quite a job to convince many here in this House that his words of 5 November last are no longer valid but I have no doubt he will make a sterling effort to justify himself.

Deputy Spring continued:

But there is one thing that the Taoiseach is not. He is not a Taoiseach who has ever received a mandate from the people.

Deputy Albert Reynolds did not receive such a mandate on 25 November either.

(Interruptions.)

Yes, Deputy Spring did receive a mandate; he received a mandate for change. Now he proposes to give us that change by putting back in office the same Taoiseach, the same Ministers, the same political party against whom he spoke with such precious and high flown rhetoric here in this House on 5 November last and for the previous five years.

To my mind the most eloquent and apparently forward-looking passage of Deputy Spring's speech in this House on 5 November last was in respect of Northern Ireland. He spoke of the Northern talks being in deep trouble because all sides had taken entrenched positions on Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution. He said that any new Government must put the issue of reconciling national identity with political allegiance high on its agenda. He said, at column 2333, of the Official Report:

It must be approached with a commitment to change in every area where change is necessary, including changes in our Constitution.

Deputy Spring went further. About the process towards peace in Northern Ireland, he said at column 2332, "That may mean being prepared to go even further than changing Articles 2 and 3 alone"— a very good sentence. Deputy Spring will need to produce quite convincing evidence that he will be able to get this sort of change from his new choice for Taoiseach. He should remember the bombastic reference of the same Taoiseach, from the safety of a meeting of his supporters in Templemore, when he howled at the Unionist community: "Articles 2 and 3 are not for sale".

The Labour Party had an important role to play in the negotiation of the Anglo-Irish Agreement. Deputy Spring, in particular, has been praised and in my view justly, for his constructive involvement in that process. However, the implementation of the Anglo-Irish Agreement has been the responsibility of the Fianna Fáil Party. The agreement contains immense but unutilised potential to allow our Government to exercise a constructive role in Northern Ireland. We can put forward initiatives on internal affairs in Northern Ireland on subjects as diverse as political structures, social and economic issues, prisons, the courts and the judicial system, and nominations to public bodies. Yet, in the five years since Fianna Fáil have had responsibility for the implementation of the agreement they have hardly put forward any serious initiatives on any of those subjects. They have allowed the agenda, under the Anglo-Irish Agreement, to be entirely set by the British Government. It was a British, not an Irish initiative, that led to the current round of talks — the Brooke talks.

Fianna Fáil has not changed. The choice by the Labour Party of Fianna Fáil as a Coalition partner casts much doubt on what Deputy Spring said about the need to reconcile the traditions on this island and to change Articles 2 and 3. Having said that, I will offer one piece of advice to whoever is going to form a Government in this Dáil, and this derives from what I have seen of coalitions, both from within and without: if you have business to do, do it at the Cabinet table. Do not allow your business to be done for you by those you pay to convey your message to the media. Government is the business of elected politicians, it is not the business of unelected scriptwriters or media spindoctors. If you have a disagreement, air it at the Cabinet table. Do not air it through the columns of the newspapers. There is nothing more corrosive of trust in a Coalition Government than for Ministers to read the views of their Cabinet colleagues in the newspapers, before they hear them at the Cabinet table. Once the Cabinet has made a decision, let all members defend it equally. Cabinet decisions should not be conditional on the approval of out-siders, or revisable at their request. Any decision taken by the Cabinet, for example on the budget, is a decision taken by all Ministers, for which all Ministers and all parties are, and remain, collectively responsible. It is not just a decision of one Minister.

A Government with a sound, and agreed, budgetary policy has never been more important to the Irish people than it is today. When Fine Gael started talking, long before the recent general election, about how one might put in place an alternative Government to one led by Fianna Fáil, we made one thing clear to all concerned. There would have to be a budgetary policy — covering limits on borrowing, spending and taxation for each of the five years individually — agreed in advance between the parties, before the Cabinet was formed. The experience of the 1983-87 Fine GaelLabour Coalition showed that failure to tie down budgetary strategy, for each year, before forming the Government, is a recipe for misunderstanding, for procrastination, and ultimately for political losses as well. We realised in what we said before the recent general election that changing that and negotiating a budgetary policy in advance for each of five years is not an easy task, even from a technical, let alone a political point of view. But such was, is, and always will be, essential for any Government involving Fine Gael.

For those struggling to pay their mortgages, or struggling to stay in business with the present astronomical interest rates, a sound budgetary policy for 1993, of all years, is their essential requirement of any government elected in this Dáil. Unless the budgetary policy is credible, interest rates will remain high, house repossessions will escalate and redundancies will accelerate.

Already the majority of home-loan borrowers are technically in arrears, having opted not to pay the 3 per cent increase in interest for the past two months. The number of civil bills brought to the Circuit Court for house repossessions has doubled in the past 12 months — running now at about 1,000 a year. Many others have been forced to pay annual fines of up to £4,000 before settlement is reached with their lending societies about arrears.

It should not be forgotten by anyone involved in this House at present that Irish interest rates are now running at an 8 per cent premium over Deutsche Mark rates. The Confederation of Irish Industry says that by April 1993 unemployment will have risen by 25,000 or 30,000.

As a result of the devaluation of sterling, the past four years' of hard won gains in competitiveness by Irish exporters on the British market, and against British competition on the Irish market, have been wiped out in just four months. Redundancies reached an all time high in the last month for which figures are available — December.

A credible budgetary policy for 1993 and for each of the following four years is the key factor under our own control — there are many we do not have under our own control — that can help bring down interest rates, thereby restoring competitiveness, easing the burden on mortgage holders and saving jobs that would otherwise be lost.

Along with other party Leaders I have had the opportunity to study the official budgetary predictions for 1993 as prepared by the Department of Finance. I have had the figures checked by independent economic consultants. They questioned exhaustively the officials who prepared the figures and there was no question that the officials were unwilling to answer.

Our conclusion is that the Department of Finance estimates of likely revenue, expenditure and borrowing for 1993 as presented to us, if no policy changes are made, are correct — technically correct and honest.

I want to warn the two parties now negotiating for a government agreement. Do not attempt to massage or manipulate these independent official figures of the Department of Finance or try to take full credit for all the upside risks and ignore all the downside risks. The last time this country had a budget where the assumptions were manipulated for political purposes was in January 1981, and that was done by an outgoing Fianna Fáil administration. The results were disastrous both for the country and for that party.

The budgetary assumptions underlying any government agreement brought before this House, therefore, must be set out in detail and validated properly. Budgetary secrecy is no excuse for bringing this information before this House if it is the basis on which the Government agreement is being formed. The House must know that the figures underlying the agreement are honest. If the budgetary agreement is not valid the whole Government programme itself will be invalid.

If Deputies want to help those paying mortgages and those threatened with redundancy they must introduce an honest budget which keeps borrowing within the Maastricht limits. Otherwise our exchange rate, whatever it is, will have no credibility and interest rates will remain high.

I would strongly advise the two sets of party negotiators to verify, beyond all reasonable doubt and before next week, the authority on which the promise of £8 billion for Ireland from the EC has been made by the Taoiseach. If, for example, Ireland did not continue to get the full 13.6 per cent of the Structural Funds up to 1998, the medium term budgetary arithmetic could be up to £2 billion off the mark. That would undermine the entire Government agreement. Those who settle, if they do settle, next week must be satisfied that that assurance of £8 billion is sound, otherwise the whole house will come tumbling down.

Let me recall one or two things for the record. A Fianna Fáil-Labour Coalition is not what the people voted for; it is not what the majority of people want and it is not what they deserve. Such a coalition was not inevitable; it was an option that was deliberately chosen by Deputy Spring who walked away from the possibility of tripartite discussions with Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats because he preferred to negotiate with Fianna Fáil. He should not forget after all that it was Deputy Reynolds who broke up the last Dáil, prematurely and unnecessarily, because he wanted to get a mandate for a single party Government. Now he wants to use that mandate to give the people a new coalition, something very different from anything those who voted for him envisaged.

Deputy Spring toured the country asking voters for a mandate for change — he called it "real change". Now he wants to use that mandate to put back in office the same Taoiseach, the same Ministers and the same party against whom he had campaigned with such selfconscious rhetoric in this House, and elsewhere, for the past five years. Such a somersault diminishes not only his credibility but also the credibility of other politicians.

Deputy Spring had made much of the fact that he sought the establishment of the beef tribunal to investigate allegations of fraud and favouritism. He should not forget that the recent general election was caused by the evidence of Deputy Reynolds at that tribunal. Deputy Reynolds, under oath, called a previous Cabinet colleague dishonest. The place of that colleague is now to be taken by Deputy Spring——

Please desist from any further reference to the tribunal.

Fine Gael was the only party which before the election sketched out a detailed scenario for replacing Fianna Fáil in Government——

And lost ten seats.

Look at the results.

We have not altered our stance. People know that if Fine Gael says something before an election it means it. It has adhered conscientiously to the conditions it set out for forming a Government before the election and it will still adhere to them. People who vote for us in future will know that what we say before an election is what we will do after the election. This cannot be said of the other parties in this House.

When the time comes to fight the next general election the issue of credibility, the credibility of what people say when they are asking for votes, will be the central issue. On the issue of credibility, the Fine Gael Party stands head and shoulders above the other parties in this House, the parties who now wish to form the next Government. If that is, as I believe it will be, the key issue in the next general election it will be an issue which will work to our advantage.

The Labour Party leadership knew very well that when they initiated negotiations with Fianna Fáil, as they did, they were, by that act, closing off negotiations with Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats. That was the choice they made. They were free to make it, but it was their choice and they must bear sole responsibility for it.

The Labour Party never seriously attempted to negotiate — and I now believe never seriously wanted to negotiate — a Government with any party other than Fianna Fáil. The evidence for this belief is clear. First, the main obstacles raised by Labour to partnership with Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats seem to have entirely disappeared in the past fortnight of discussions with Fianna Fáil. A fortnight ago the Labour Party was insisting on the rotation of the Office of Taoiseach and on the governmental involvement of Democratic Left. Neither issue is being pressed in any way in their discussions with Fianna Fáil, they are not even being mentioned.

The revolver has given way to the shotgun.

Second, in the case of Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats, Deputy Spring insisted that prior to negotiations taking place, Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats must, and I quote from his speech in this House on 14 December:

...be prepared to publish their opening policy positions and submit them to public scrutiny.

Yet he is now negotiating with Fianna Fáil who has not yet published the document it submitted to the Labour Party two weeks into the negotiations. Those two inconsistencies are the reasons I believe there was never any serious intent on the part of Labour to negotiate with any party other than Fianna Fáil.

(Interruptions.)

They will be hearing a little bit more of this.

Interruptions.)

I have examined only one of the speeches made in Opposition; there are many more.

A Deputy

Wait until next Tuesday.

We surrender.

Deputies opposite should settle down. I do not believe that this proposed combination of parties will give us good Government; it will be a Government of hype and background briefing, of sham fights and empty gestures. It will not be a Government of radical change or a Government which shows leadership in Europe or at home. It will be a Government that will be watching the clock rather than doing the job.

I can tell Deputy Bruton that I have certainly been watching the clock for the past hour.

A Deputy

The Deputy should watch his back also.

I do not intend——

Tell us how you conned the public——

——to reply to the pathetic and cheap remarks made by Deputy Bruton in his attempt to personalise the issue of Government formation.

Has the Deputy lost his taste for argument?

Alan, you have not been a great success story yourself.

He could be the comeback kid.

Who is next?

(Interruptions.)

The Labour Party does not need lectures from the leader of the Fine Gael Party; I find them offensive.

We have been listening to the Deputy's lectures in this House for five years and they have all proven to be a sham.

I am glad you came to the negotiating table.

They made it much easier for us.

I will confine myself to saying that there is absolutely nothing in the mandate the leader of the Fine Gael Party received from the Irish people which gives him the right or the moral authority to lecture anyone else about their duty in this House.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Listen to them.

I see the duty of the Labour Party——

Will we hear from them on budget day? I wonder what they will be saying then?

——to work as constructively as possible towards providing the people of this country with a good, effective and stable Government. We have tried to pursue that task with care and we have arrived at the point where final decision need to be made. If all goes well — in politics one can never predict the serious obstacles which can arise at any time — I will be asking the Labour Party to take those decisions this week-end.

Before it takes these decisions the Labour Party needs to be satisfied — it will be my duty to satisfy it — about a number of things. It will need to know and be assured that the policy platform it will consider represents a platform for real change here. It will need to know that the immediate priorities on that platform can be implemented immediately against a background of tough economic and financial conditions. It will need to know that the structures that are being put in place are based on a commitment from top to bottom to real partnership, the sort of partnership that alone can produce radical economic and social change. It will need to know that a relationship can be sustained on the basis of trust and openness with each other, no matter how difficult the issues are down the road. I will need to be able to supply the Labour Party and through them, I hope, all the people of Ireland with all those assurances. It may well be — no one should underestimate the difficulties which remain — that it will be very late in the day before we can agree all the things that need to be agreed before those assurances can be given.

You are not out of the woods yet, Albert.

All I can say now is that if I ask the Labour Party to endorse the agreement we make it will be because I am prepared to be judged at the end of the day on the efforts both parties make in good faith to implement our agreements in full right across the whole range of areas they touch in policy and other terms.

As far as policy is concerned, a great deal of work has concluded. If this agreement can be brought to fruition it will lead to a new sense of partnership throughout our community. That partnership, in turn, will enable us to confront urgent economic problems and serious and grave social issues in a way which makes Ireland a better place to live in and raise children, an economy and society in which every citizen will be empowered to play a full, dignified and meaningful role. It will be the most comprehensive, detailed and radical programme ever put before the people of this country. In the best sense, the programme will take the best from both parties and put that into practice for the benefit not just of those who voted for those parties but for every citizen of the State. I hope that if and when an agreement is finally reached — I emphasise that agreement is about much more than policy — it will be given a fair chance. If it is I have no doubt that those who worry about the possibility of change in Ireland receding will have their minds put at rest.

By this stage the proceedings of the Dáil have become not a little bizarre and unreal. Here we are meeting six weeks after the general election and we still do not have a Government formed. Moreover, it has now been confirmed that at least another week will elapse before a Government is formed.

The unreality stems from a number of factors, not least is the fact that the Government-making process now under way and, apparently, certain to reach conclusion, will result in the retention of Government by a Taoiseach and a party which was decisively rejected by the people when they sought such a mandate on 25 November last. The unreality is compounded by the fact that this will happen courtesy of the party which most exploited and benefited from the public mood of wanting to reject the Government option offered by Fianna Fáil. Lest people rush to make comparisons with the time needed to form a coalition administration in June 1989 when the Progressive Democrats were involved, I would remind the House that the Government formed then took office within four weeks of the election day, nor was the same urgency attaching to the task then which must obtain now precisely because of the appalling economic problems facing the country caused mainly by the European monetary crisis and the persistent underlying unemployment crisis.

In the light of these realities, and the warning yesterday by the Irish Business and Employers' Confederation that a further 30,000 hard won jobs in Irish firms are now at risk, it is essential that the Fianna Fáil and Labour parties quickly conclude the business of Government-making and undertake a clear policy strategy to deal with this crisis. The strategy will not be successful if it does not seek to have the problem tackled on a Community-wide basis. Individual countries, especially small ones, cannot protect themselves by their own actions in a matter such as this except on a very short term basis.

It is interesting to note that whatever else may be prolonging the task of Government-making, it is clear that neither the issue of a rotating Taoiseach nor the question of the inclusion of the Democratic Left Party is posing any problems. Obviously, these fundamental preconditions set by the Labour Party in the aftermath of the election, when the pretext of negotiations with my party and the Fine Gael Party had to be indulged in have now miraculously vanished from their lexicon of core values. People can draw their own conclusions about this transparent piece of political play-acting.

As we await the eventual conclusion and publication of the Fianna Fáil-Labour programme for Government the public is being treated to much talk about new beginnings, managing change and restructuring and abolition of Government Departments. Speaking for a party which has also been involved in such Government programme-making, and revision of such programmes, it would be better if we all formed our judgments on the basis of what happens rather than what is written down or the subject of high blown public relations speak. I will conclude by giving an example of what I mean by that. In reply to a specific question in regard to appointments by his caretaker administration on 16 December last, the acting Taoiseach assured us, as reported in column 251 of the Official Report of that date.

...we do not intend to do anything more at the moment in relation to that aspect of our business except in those areas where we have a national responsibility on us to act.

That was the acting Taoiseach's response to Deputy Durkan who asked him whether he intended making appointments to State and semi-State bodies or other bodies. That is hardly a fair or accurate answer given the disclosures which a diligent media have rightly brought to our attention. Was it in the national interest for the defeated caretaker and minority Fianna Fáil Government to fill up to 200 such posts since the Irish people so emphatically rejected them on 25 November last? I certainly think it was not.

(Interruptions.)

The House will have noted with some surprise in the Taoiseach's speech that one of the political achievements of the past two months was "the removal of impediments to access to certain Government documents over 30 years old". I would not regard that as a major political achievement.

(Interruptions.)

Never has a man so rapidly removed his own impediments.

I am happy to conclude on the note that this House may, with profit, in the weeks and months to come return to the question of the access of the Taoiseach to documents.

Democratic Left acknowledged following the inconclusive outcome of the November election, that it was going to take some time to form a Government. We accepted that time was necessary to negotiate a common policy platform which would provide both a period of political stability and the change that so many people want to see.

However, time is now moving on. In 1989 it took less than four weeks to put a Government together. It is now almost six weeks since the November election and this must be the last adjournment. When the Dáil meets again there must be specific proposals for the election of a Taoiseach and the formation of a Government. The current drift cannot be allowed to continue. The country cannot fly on indefinitely on auto-pilot. Social and economic problems are piling up at an alarming rate. We urgently need a new Government to begin the process of tackling these problems in a new way. We will reserve our critique of the new Government until we see what it is they are proposing to do on these problems.

The two most pressing economic problems facing us as we enter 1993 are, of course, unemployment and the currency crisis. In this context I hope the reports that the Labour Party has passed on the possibility of securing the Finance portfolio prove to be unfounded. I would have thought that after decades of conservative political control of this key Department, the Labour Party would, especially given their strong bargaining position, be demanding that a Minister with a different political perspective be allowed to handle Finance.

If there was anyone still with any doubt about the enormity of the unemployment problem, then their illusions must surely have been dispelled by figures published yesterday which showed a net loss of jobs in IDA supported companies during 1992. These should be the cream of the crop, generally hi-tech companies in the modern manufacturing sector, receiving generous financial support and technical advice and assistance.

There have been forecasts of another 25,000 or 30,000 people on the dole queue before the end of the year. I understand that the situation was so bad in one Dublin employment exchange yesterday that security staff had to be brought in to control the numbers seeking to sign on, having been laid off once the Christmas peak had passed. This is the biggest challenge facing the new Government. On the last occasion we met I referred to the fact that good government required not only a good policy platform, but also the political will to deliver. I referred specifically to the Culliton report, pointing out that it had widespread backing but that various vested interests had sapped the political will to implement it. Exactly 12 months after publication, virtually nothing has been done to implement its recommendations. The real test of the new Government will be whether it has the will to provide a radical shift in industrial strategy and deliver on fundamental tax reform — even if this involves causing pain to some vested interests.

Given the continuing instability on the currency markets, it is a particularly dangerous period to be without a government with a firm mandate. People are reeling in disbelief at the inability of this country and our partners in the EC to deal with the ongoing currency crisis. The bankers and speculators are being allowed to run the show and to make decisions which are capable not just of destroying jobs but of crippling entire economies. People who have borrowed either for productive purposes or simply to put a roof over their heads are being beggared by high interest rates. However, we should be careful not to fall victim to the pressures generated by speculators for quick fix solutions.

It is now a matter of extreme urgency that we have active economic and monetary management at national and European level. It is intolerable that we should allow our economy to suffer at the mercy of the speculators, give up exchange controls, reduce national currency management without demanding that European instruments be put in place to replace them. It cannot be acceptable to allow the money markets to determine the health or otherwise of our economy or of the EC.

The present situation must be tackled because it is undermining our vulnerable export sector and increasing unemployment at a time when competition is intensifying as part of the completed Internal Market. It is also effectively transferring enormous wealth from borrowers, mortgage holders, new enterprises, small companies and the public at large, to the financial institutions and to those with capital to put on loan.

During the debate on the Maastricht Treaty, Democratic Left pointed to the folly of removing national currency controls without first putting in place effective European controls and the necessary political and economic supports to protect us during any transitional period. It is not acceptable that our national economy or the whole range of European currencies should be used as easy pickings for unscrupulous profiteers while national governments and the EC stand on the sideline paralysed by doctrinaire economics which rule out intervention by governments.

We need urgent action at both national and European level to seize the initiative from the bankers and the speculators and give it back to those who have a democratic mandate from the people. This should have been at the top of the agenda for the EC summit in Edinburgh but it was given virtually no priority by the UK Presidency, and the Taoiseach seems to have made no demand that it should be discussed.

The new Government should be insisting that there be an immediate special EC summit devoted exclusively to dealing with the currency crisis and unemployment. These matters are far too serious to be allowed to drift on until the next scheduled summit in June. Top of the agenda at the summit should be the introduction of a Euro-wide penal tax to deal with immoral currency speculation, the speeding up of European Monetary Union and the implementation of measures to assist the weaker economies.

Another matter I raised the last day on which the Dáil met was the question of appointments being made by the caretaker Government to various State boards and agencies. I suggested that the Government did not have the political authority to make these appointments and that this was evidence that Fianna Fáil were incapable of changing from the gombeen culture that has dominated them in recent decades.

I mentioned appointments to the boards of Eolas and the Combat Poverty Agency, but it was clear that what I was referring to was only the tip of the iceberg. In fact, what we have witnessed has been a wholesale abuse of office, despite commitments by the Taoiseach to the contrary in this House, involving in many cases the packing of boards with Fianna Fáil members and supporters. The Sunday Tribune of 3 January identified some 200 appointments made by the Government or by individual Ministers since the Dáil was dissolved on 5 November. Debts have been paid and political favours rewarded.

The acting Minister for Education, Deputy Brennan, clearly believes the media reports that he will not be a member of the next Administration because he has probably been the most active in looking after his friends and supporters. Among the most imaginative of his appointments were the nomination of a Leitrim Fianna Fáil country councillor to the Board of Dublin City University, and that of a political associate of the Minister from south County Dublin to the governing body of the University of Limerick. This is not the first outgoing government to have made appointments before it leaves office, but it is probably the first time it has been done on this scale and it is surely time that this sort of abuse is stopped.

If the new Government is serious about institutional reform, then one change that must be made is the introduction of legislation to prevent any such appointments being made during the period between the dissolution of a Dáil and the election of a new Government, except in a post-election situation where urgent appointments could only be made with the approval of the Dáil.

(Limerick East): It is now two months since the confidence debate which led to the defeat of the Government on 5 November and it is bizarre that we are still waiting for a government to be formed after such a long time has elapsed.

The formation of a Government is a matter of urgency not because the country needs a government now more than ever but because of the combination of problems which has plunged this country into the greatest economic crisis in 15 years. A combination of the exchange rate crisis, the interest rate crisis, the unemployment crisis and the emerging budgetary crisis have given us a combination of circumstances where it is absolutely essential not only that a Government is formed immediately but that that government has the policies to address the problems we are facing.

It is worth recalling what the position now is relevant to the exchange rate. Nine currencies associated with the IR£ and the Deutsche Mark have now been devalued. Our currency has appreciated by 15 per cent against sterling and against all our trading partners, on a trade rated basis, our currency has appreciated by almost 5 per cent.

Certainly there was merit last August and during the previous number of years in defending the value of the IR£. However, the present value of the IR£, putting it in non-economic terms, is now 5 per cent greater than the makers of government policy ever intended it to be. The value of the IR£ at the moment is not the result of any series of decisions made by the Government, the Department of Finance or the Central Bank. It is the residual situation resulting from other people's currency problems. Because sterling was devalued, the lira was devalued, the peseta was devalued and six other currencies either directly in the ERM or associated with it, went down also; the value of our savings and the value of our income from whatever source has purchasing power 5 per cent greater than it had last August. That is very good news for everybody in this country if that position could be sustained, but this is where the question arises. Can it be sustained and at what price?

I believe that without major changes by a strong Government which understands the situation and is committed to change, it is not possible to maintain the present exchange rate policy and, inevitably, it will collapse and it will collapse in the most ignominious circumstances for the policy makers. There is only one policy at the moment supporting the present value of the IR£ and that is the highest interest rates since the foundation of the State. We know what that is doing to business in this country; we know what it is doing to private household incomes; in particular, we know what it is doing to mortgage holders. Yet, that is the only policy plank which the present caretaker Government has and has had since the crisis occurred in September.

In the absence of alternative policies it will not be possible to maintain the value of the IR£ unless the Government is committed to maintaining even higher interest rates over the next six months. If it is, it is not an exaggeration to say that the productive sector will wither, indeed it is already withering.

At present exchange and interest rates there will be at least 6,000 redundancies in the next six weeks and yet we have a caretaker Government without a mandate and without any notion of how to address this problem. However, there are alternatives, if the Government wants to remove the plank of the high interest rates now underpinning the value of the IR£ then it must move to restore the competitiveness of Irish industry by other means. During the course of the election campaign we suggested one major way by which this could be done — by reducing payroll costs. If employers' PRSI were halved payroll costs would come down by 6 per cent and, if that happened, jobs — which are going down the drain on a daily basis — would be sustained. However, the Government has not taken any initiative in this regard.

On the day when the Progressive Democrats left Government there was much anguish and movement in the Dáil; when the Government collapsed on 5 November as a result of a vote on a confidence motion it received much publicity. However, on the following Tuesday something occurred which did not get any publicity; the remainder of the Government went back into Cabinet and took a decision that every aspect of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress should be paid unilaterally without any negotiations with the unions, without any conditions about the reform of conciliation and arbitration and without any reference to the inconsistencies of its exchange rate policy.

The initiative in regard to the Programme for Economic and Social Progress was to secure the votes of public servants and others who would benefit from it. Since then, right across the board, the Fianna Fáil Government did not regard any promise as too expensive to fulfil. However, the officials in the Department of Labour and the Minister for Finance know about the redundancies. We all shared the information given to us by the Minister for Finance and the figure that struck me in the predictions for next year was the conservative estimate of the Department of Finance that the live register would increase by between 25,000 and 30,000 people, on average, next year; that was on the basis that there would not be a change in policy.

I know that the officials in the Department of Finance are intellectually convinced that they are following the right course in maintaining present exchange rate values, may be it is the right thing to do but it is not a sustainable policy in the absence of other initiatives. Unless other initiatives are taken to restore the competitiveness of Irish industry then the economy will wither and the conservative figure of the Department of Finance of 25,000 or 30,000 extra people on the live register will be below the numbers and the redundancies which will occur because of, in particular, the relative exchange rates between the IR£ and sterling will cause massive redundancies; indeed they are already causing them.

I did not know — until Deputy De Rossa mentioned it — that security staff had to be called in yesterday in the labour exchanges in Dublin to control the queues of people signing on for the first time——

It was in Tallaght.

(Limerick East): The main reason for that happening is not simply seasonal layoffs after Christmas, it is because of the exchange rate policy and the fact that jobs are withering on the vine. Companies are shutting down because it is not possible, in the absence of a reconstruction programme, to sustain present exchange rate policies. There is only one plank underpinning it at present, the plank of high interest rates, and high interest rates are causing even more damage to the economy and to jobs than the difficulties experienced by the export sector, particularly to the United Kingdom, deriving from exchange rate policies.

Do Members know what the prime rate is at present for the top corporate companies? Their borrowings cost 19 per cent. The Government boasts that inflation is down to 1 per cent but there is an interest rate of 18 per cent for the productive sector. I am referring to the top companies, the Cement Roadstones, I am not talking about small companies who must pay 24 per cent or 25 per cent. When the building industry, and the development, sector need a cash flow to finance their companies they pay 33 per cent or 35 per cent on borrowings. Would anyone with money invest in the expectation that they would have a return which exceeded 18 per cent in real interest rate terms? If they would, I should like to know where there is such investment, it is the highest since the foundation of the State. It is matched by the proposals of the Minister for Finance.

(Limerick East): Not in real interest rate terms. I am not talking about the extravagant one month rate which has been put in place to underpin the currency, the rate was 40 per cent yesterday and it was down to 35 per cent this morning. I am talking about the rates which the best equipped borrowers in the country must pay for money — 19 per cent for the top of the corporate sector. I got my own statement the other day and it mentioned that from that day interest rates would apply at 20.75 per cent. My daughter has a student loan, she also received her statement which mentioned that the borrowing rate was 19.75 per cent. I am talking about real people, not some kind of matrix of interest rates put out by the Central Bank to encourage people or to give a general course in economics, these are the rates which people now pay. Do Members know what their credit cards cost at present on the basis of this morning's rates? I am sure many Members possess Visa cards, certainly the Labour Party prospective Ministers have them because they intend to pay their hotel bills all over the United States using credit cards. The rate is 33 per cent on credit cards and there was not much publicity about that. You pay for your flexible friend — that is not a reference to the leader of the Labour Party.

I have a letter in my possession which was sent to my colleague, Deputy Carey, which reads:

May I congratulate you on your recent re-election to the Dáil? I am writing to express my serious concern regarding the present high mortgage interest rate. We are now paying 18.25 per cent to Irish Life Insurance on a mortgage loan. This rate has climbed by 6 per cent in recent months.

Imagine an increase of 6 per cent on a home loan. All the home loans will rise in one way or another although some will be deferred and others will not be raised until 1 February or 1 March. Whether the increases affect the corporate sector trying to borrow to finance jobs or personal borrowers, the interest rates are colossal. What has the Government done? Virtually nothing; it brought in a subsidy scheme, the money for which will run out in the middle of January. It said it would give £50 per job to the export sector — those exporting to the United Kingdom — but it got so many applicants it had to reduce the figure to £35. Will this be renewed or will we allow jobs, which have been temporarily subsidised for the past couple of weeks, to vanish? Are the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance aware of what is happening along the Border? Do they understand that cross-Border trade is starting again in a way which adversely affects people and industrialists living in Border counties? Are they aware of the outcry every day from all sectors in this regard? What is happening? The leader of the Labour Party is doing a shadow dance — some kind of mating dance — with the leader of Fianna Fáil, as if there is no urgency. We have heard about Nero fiddling while Rome burned——

Not Na Fallaí Luimnigh.

(Limerick East):——but there is no music to this particular tango.

The Rose of Tralee.

The Dead March.

(Limerick East): So many metaphors are being thrown at me, from the Rose of Tralee to the Dead March, that I am not able to cope with the amount of energy coming from the benches behind.

They were a nice duo.

The situation is catastrophic. In the first instance, the combination of exchange and interest rates is leading to unemployment and job loss rates we did not expect when we fought the election campaign. What is happening? Nothing. The Labour Party is trying to justify their participation in Government by a series of briefing, media leaks and off-the-record information being communicated to the press.

The bearded trio.

We are very familiar with that. We had the same when we were in Government between 1982-87. It came to the stage that I did not listen to the Secretary of the Government reading out the minutes of what was decided at Cabinet but instead read in The Irish Times what the Labour Party man in the Government Press Office had leaked. The Government Press Secretary could only tell you what happened but Fergus Finlay could tell you what was going to happen, and he was a far better source.

A Deputy

I bet he was making it up too.

(Limerick East): We are going to have the same thing all over again.

What has been happening in the negotiations over the past week or two? We are hearing a great deal of good news about this new vigorous Labour Party committed to change and wishing to change the face of the nation. Does the Minister know—I believe he still holds the Education brief — that there will be fewer than 30 pupils in primary school classes in 1996 — thanks to the Labour Party? This was announced this morning. Does the Minister know that the date for the divorce referendum has been fixed? Does the Minister know that there will be free university education for all, whether students want it or not?

We will have a nation of academics.

We are getting a series of good news leaks from the negotiations by the Labour Party, but every one costs money. They are all desirable and nobody on this side of the House could object to those commitments. In fact, if the wherewithal was there we would all have loved to have implemented them years ago. The Department of Finance say that on average the number on the live register will increase by 25,000 on the 1992 figure and this charade is being played against that background. There does not appear to be a penny in the Exchequer to pay for the extravagant commitments now being made on public expenditure and this is all that is being shown to us.

It is about time we had a Government. If we had a Government we could find out its policy, or if it had a policy. We could ask the Minister for Finance in the House what he is doing about exchange rate policy and the initiative he is taking to ensure that the additional 25,000 on the live register does not become 45,000 because of the exchange rate policy and consequent high interest policy being pursued. There is urgency about the formation of a Government.

Deputy Bruton, with great eloquence and firmness, dealt at great length with this matter despite the baiting from Members on the other side of the House who have a disdain for the truth and certainly do not like hearing it. I do not wish to cover that ground again but it is worth making two points. In the course of the negotiations, Deputy Shatter and I had one meeting with the Labour Party negotiators, a courteous meeting with courteous people. As other parties had, we also had a copy of the programme agreed between the Labour Party and Democratic Left. From the aspirational viewpoint I thought that was a very good policy document and I certainly could agree with the social objectives contained in it. I had very little difficulty with 90 per cent of the social objectives therein and I know that Democratic Left had a major input into this document. What disturbed me, however, was that in spite of the merits of the proposals being made there was no economic policy being put forward by the Labour Party. It is not possible to fulfil social objectives in any democracy without having the economic policies that create the resources to do so. As I see it that is the weakness in the talks on the formation of a Government —there is no engine to drive the vehicle. There is no economic policy being put forward by the Labour Party, because Democratic Left seem to have fallen off the vehicle by some accident and are no longer passengers.

A Deputy

Did they fall or were they pushed?

(Limerick East): The vehicle has neither passengers nor an engine.

The Labour Party is still there. The multiplicity of objectives, in excess of 100 — I did not count them — are stated very clearly and bluntly in that document. I could go 99 per cent of the way with the social objectives, but there are no wheels under it as there is no economic policy which can deliver the resources to fulfil these social objectives. That is the problem. Fianna Fáil has been in Government in one guise or another for the past six years. As far as I can see Fianna Fáil has had its chance. If it were to solve this country's problem we would not have problems today. It has been at it six years, it has used the best of its talents twice.

God is good.

(Limerick East): Unlike Jack Charlton, the Taoiseach, Deputy Reynolds, sacked the whole first team and brought very talented people from the backbenches and we now see the state of the nation after nine months of that. Does anybody believe that the social objectives of Government will be provided by the Labour Party and the economic drive will be provided by the Fianna Fáil Party in circumstances where it did not provide any economic drive in the past six years?

Wait until Mr. Farrell McElgunn gets them travelling when he is on the governing body of Dublin City University.

Is he on the university or the prison visiting committee?

The Dublin City University.

I thought he was on the Mountjoy visiting committee. It is difficult to take in all that information when there are 200 names.

The Deputy put a fair share of them on Spike Island.

The Minister should be on Spike Island and, indeed, if I were still Minister he would be the first man I would put on it.

Minister, call to Mitchelstown on your way home.

I wish to draw a conclusion from what I said. I share the social objectives of the Labour Party, but there is no economic engine to form the wealth creation basis for the new Government to provide the resources. I have seen a Labour Party in Government before. I know what the sequence will be: first, it will attack the assumptions on which the budget is drawn up. That has been leaked to the papers. The Labour Party is not happy with the assumptions on which the Department of Finance is drawing up this budget. It believes that greater savings can be made in the Central Fund in servicing the national debt and that there will be greater buoyancy of taxation. Mr. Randolph Churchill said that the Orange card was the card to play but when Labour is in Government the buoyancy card is the card to play. If its members cannot identify the resources to pay for something, they say buoyancy. When Deputy Michael Ahern is promoted to the Cabinet, let him remember that because when he is proposing something daft, as I have no doubt he will, and somebody asks seriously how he proposes to pay for it, let him say "buoyancy", because that is the only quick answer.

A rising tide floats all parties.

Deputy Michael Ahern's colleagues who have completed the advanced course in economics will not say "buoyancy" but "selffinancing subsidies". The Labour Party is already leaking to the newspapers reports that it does not like the assumptions being made about the economy and the 1993 budget being prepared by the Department of Finance. Suddenly they have found that the economists in the ESRI have a far more accurate measuring rod. Of course the reason is that in the last report of the ESRI there is a more benign view of the economy, and they let out more rope.

You can tax shoes.

That is getting old. When the Minister is a bare-footed backbencher among a multiplicity of 101 Deputies supporting an unpopular Government in the middle of next winter he will be glad if there are any shoes at all in his constituency. We can all draw up wish lists for Government, but the real crunch of the negotiations is how a budget will be put together in 1993 and in subsequent years that is in line with the Maastricht criteria and against the background of high interest rates, the currency crisis and the unemployment crisis. All I have seen so far are people who are trying to trick around with the assumptions so as to get more leeway for another little bit of spending.

I know what will happen because I have seen it before—there will be a gap between what the Cabinet decide should be the borrowing requirement and what the opening position is. Then you can cut public expenditure, borrow or tax, and everybody will agree, including the Labour Ministers, that the best way to proceed is to cut expenditure. Deputy Kemmy is looking at me with interest. I hope he will be in there for this experience.

He will be there next Sunday and can tell us all about it.

A reporter from the Limerick Leader rang me last night and said that Deputy Kemmy had said that Fine Gael were like the dog in the manger, that they were trying to embarrass Labour by their comments. The reporter asked me for a comment and I said there was no need to embarrass Labour because it had embarrassed itself already. I think that sums it up.

When Labour is faced with a choice of cutting public expenditure it will agree in principle but no cut will be desirable. Then it will say, "if we cannot cut we will have to borrow". It will then be pointed out to them that if they borrow it will break the Maastricht criteria — its policy document states that it is fully in line with the Masstricht criteria — therefore that card is pulled back off the table. There will then be a meeting, the "last" meeting and then the "last, last" meeting which will be held the Friday before the budget. At that meeting the misfortunate Minister for Finance will say, "we cannot cut because you would not agree; I gave you sink-the-Asgard list and you would not agree to that either".

It will be a whole new experience for them.

They will not make cuts, the civil servants will not let them borrow because that would be transparent and the idea of bogus assumptions will have to be taken off the table. What, then, will they do three days before the budget? They will raise taxes. The bottom line is that the Labour Party like its colleagues in many administrations around the world is a party of poor value, high expenditure, high taxes and high unemployment.

While we are making witty speeches here today it is no joke to have to pay a mortgage at 18.5 per cent. It is no joke that the queue at the labour exchange is so long that a security firm has to be employed to put it in order so that people can sign on. It is no joke either to be one of the 300,000 on the live register or to be one of the school leavers we see each morning on our way here queuing at the passport office, the first step in their efforts to get out of the country, and there is not much hope abroad either. Neither is it any joke that the Department of Finance shows figures to every party leader in this House which indicate that, on present policies, the number on the live register will increase by 25,000 to 30,000 next year. Yet there is no outrage at that; it is accepted as part of the furniture.

There are two parties going into Government, one with a wish list and the other with the cynicism of the party who is used to being in power, who thinks that as soon as it gets into office it will put manners on these naive people who will witness the reality at the Cabinet table. I am sorry that the honourable Labour Party, the great Labour Party, the Labour Party that was so concerned about people, are walking into this trap with the most cynical party that has held power in this country. Fianna Fáil has been cynical since 1926 and will continue to be cynical. That is why there is urgency in forming a Government. There is urgency because of the economic background but when the Government is formed I do not believe it will address the country's fundamental problems. I have no doubt that on the anniversary of the confidence debate, this will be 5 November next year, this will be an extremely unpopular Government and the index figures of our economy in terms of unemployment, emigration and, interest rates will be higher than they are today. I say this because there is strategy for radical reform being negotiated. However, there is a strategy being negotiated and that strategy is, as one journalist put it — I think it was in the Sunday Press— that instead of having the plough and the stars flying over the House the new emblem of the Government will be the plough and the cars.

I was going to offer to give a few minutes to the Minister for Education to reply, but he has had his fill now. My understanding is that the Green Paper has become part of the mulching system in the garden at the back of the Department of Education, that it has been abandoned.

Tom Petty is not a Member of this House. He is not even an Irishman and for that reason may not be well known to many Members in this House. However, I am sure that he is known to some Members and that he certainly has one fan in the PR company that took care of the Labour Party's party political broadcast for television during the November election. Tom Petty is an American ballad singer whose most recent hit was used most effectively in the Labour Party's broadcast during the election campaigns. We saw the Labour Party leader, handsome man that he is, walking on the beach, then silhouetted on a rock and gazing out to the horizon. While Tom Petty's words were used to portray a man of strength, vigour and honesty, a man unwilling to allow continue in this country the kind of politics which were a hallmark of the outgoing Fianna Fáil Party. The evocative words used so effectively to the twanging sound of a steel guitar were "And I Won't Back Down". I am sure as I remind the Labour Party of that political broadcast and in the light of Tom Petty's words, there are some who will blush behind their hands as they review their actions in the weeks since the election.

Deputy Spring knows full well, as does his advisers and his handlers, that it was political broadcasts like that, following as they did a strong and passionate speech in this House on 5 November 1992 condemning the outgoing Government, that caused the electorate to vote in such large numbers for his party. He managed to convince the electorate that within himself and within his Party there was the capacity to shift the balance of power from the so called "golden circle" and its surrounding concentric circles, out to the edges of our society, to those people who now feel marginalised, perhaps useless, uncared for or badly housed perhaps and, trying to make ends meet without any real support. The electorate took Deputy Spring at his word and endorsed by an overwhelming vote that image and message that was created for him by his PR companies and by other Members in this House. But with that endorsement came a whole heap of responsibility, responsibility that must be shouldered in an honest and open way, and which must reflect in so far as possible the policies and the reasons as given which led to the electorate's support in the first place.

Using the words of the Tom Petty song, I want to reflect on the Labour Party's actions over the last six weeks or so. I quote from Vol 424, column 2315 of the Official Report of 5 November:

They are now heartily and thoroughly distrusted throughout the length and breadth of the country. They are incapable of providing leadership or direction, or of mobilising the spirit that exists in large measure throughout the community — a spirit of determination to solve our problems working together.

The Deputy is talking about her partners over there.

These are the words from the speech of Deputy Dick Spring of 5 November already referred to by Deputy Bruton. It was these words, with the words about the radical reformation of Fianna Fáil, the party political broadcasts using the Tom Petty song, and many other speeches given by Deputy Spring and members of his party prior to and during the election, that gave people the expectation of a change of Government and, most certainly, an expectation that whoever else was in Government, it would not be the political party that Deputy Spring referred to so disparagingly in his speech on 5 November. Now, on the eve of the formation of a Fianna Fáil-Labour Coalition, Deputy Spring no longer reflects Tom Petty's words, Deputy Spring has backed down.

In their approach to the Fine Gael Party post-election, the Labour Party laid down two conditions, which have been referred to before—the Democratic Left would have to be included in the coalition and that Deputy Dick Spring would have to be Taoiseach; this was slightly modified to a rotating Taoiseach with the leader of the Fine Gael Party. Now we see that neither condition applies any longer. "And I won't back down"; Deputy Spring has backed down once again.

And he dropped the ball.

In election literature headed "An important message from Dick Spring to Dublin families" he states:

Fianna Fáil lies and distortions are dangerous. They are knowingly spreading these lies about Labour's policies to scare you away from change... These points and many others are clearly set out in Labour's programmes. You have been misled and betrayed for long enough by Fianna Fáil. To put trust back into politics I am urging you to vote Labour.

The Deputy could not say, of course, that Fianna Fáil lies are contagious.

They probably did not have the antidote for that type of contagious disease.

Two weeks after these words were circulated to the electorate, Labour are sitting down to sup with that self same misleading and betraying party called Fianna Fáil. Deputy Spring has backed down again.

Can the public really be expected to believe that in three short weeks a party that has been beset by scandals, inquiries, accusations from the Labour Party and others of running a Government as if it was its own private company, for the party's benefit and for the benefit of the party's friends, has been radically transformed in some magical way by the Labour Party Leader and his team of negotiators, elected and non-elected? I do not accept that Deputy Spring believes that such transformation has taken place, but what saddens me most is his silence and the silence of his party, particularly the elected members, two of whom are in the House now, who have been struck dumb — that was never a criticism one could make of some of the members of the Labour Party — by the number of things that have happened even since the election.

Who would have believed that a Deputy such as Deputy Ruairí Quinn or some other member would not have been loud in their condemnation in this House of the risk that the beef tribunal might be suspended because of the unwillingness of Members of this House to give the fullest possible information to the tribunal. Equally, there is no way members of the Labour Party would not have been loud in their condemnation of the outgoing Fianna Fáil Government filling every conceivable vacancy on every State board during an interim period. It begs the question, was the Labour Party consulted about these various board appointments?

Of course not.

Does the Minister mean some were left out? Can the list be made available?

The Deputy should check the dates.

The Minister should get his facts right.

The Deputy has got his facts wrong and it does not surprise me he is wrong about this also.

We must remember that while some of the discussions regarding these board appointments were taking place the Labour Party and the Fianna Fáil Party were sitting down in another room negotiating the formation of a Government. As the saying goes when the cat's away the mice will play, in other words, the mice in the Departments were playing making appointments by the new time.

I am not casting aspersions on any of the individuals who have been appointed to boards. They were lucky enough to be in favour with the Fianna Fáil Party. What I am saying is that if this great radical transformation had taken place within Fianna Fáil so that it proved worthy to sit down at the same table with the Labour Party negotiators, then surely the bona fides of that transformation would have been demonstrated by Fianna Fáil holding off making such appointments until a new Government had been formed. "And I won't back down" echo the words of Tom Petty's song; Deputy Spring has backed down yet again.

Principles for a Merc.

Lest the Fianna Fáil Party think I have forgotten that it too had a part to play in denying the Irish people the kind of Government which I believe they voted for, let me turn my attention to them. I believe that if the Fianna Fáil Party belonged to the animal kingdom, it would be found in the animal dictionary under the letter "C". No, not that "C" word made famous by the Taoiseach, I refer to another "C" word, "Chameleon". The dictionary tells us that this is a small lizard famous for changing its colour and probably descended from the dinosaur. It also refers to an "inconstant person".

This is the party, this chameleon-like party, which in 1983 would not accept the advice given by the Attorney General on the right to life Amendment to our Constitution and blindly pushed ahead to have faulty wording in our Constitution leading to the X case. This is the party who, in 1986 for their own political reasons well displayed in this House, refused to support the divorce referendum. This is the party who has consistently refused to implement an obligatory European Court decision to change our laws on homosexuality. This is the party who, despite having been in Government for the last five or six years in one form or another, discovered during the election that the goose had laid a golden egg and there was now, suddenly, close to £1,000 million available to announce an orgy of promises and commitments. This is the party who in May 1991 rejected the Labour Party's Ethics in Government and Public Office Bill one of whose Members, Deputy Willie O'Dea, said in the House on 15 May 1991 that "the Labour Party should in fairness withdraw this obnoxious legislation". The Deputy may be a member of the new Cabinet——

He is a Minister now.

The Deputy is a Minister now but he may be a member of the new Cabinet formed by the Labour and Fianna Fáil Parties. This is the party whose close friends and supporters seem uncannily to turn up in any lists of names whenever a scandal is being investigated.

The Deputy should check the names; they were members of the Deputy's party — both of them.

The party, chameleon-like, in a couple of short weeks of negotiation with the Labour Party are anxious to keep their hands on the trappings of power. Fianna Fáil are now going to present this new cleaned-up image of a socially caring and economically responsible party. I do not believe them. Does anybody in this House believe them?

Forty per cent of the people do.

However, I do believe that in Fianna Fáil there are individual Members who would like to see changes made in their way of using power and Government but, up to now, have not been heard in sufficient numbers. One wonders if, after the formation of this Fianna Fáil-Labour Government, which now seems inevitable, chameleon-like, the old familiar Fianna Fáil will reemerge.

The elected Members in this House have a serious problem of credibility with the public at large. That gives me no pleasure, and I am sure no one else in this House is comfortable with the way in which, by and large, the general public view both the workings of this House and the manner in which politicians generally conduct their business. Many of us, particularly those of us who would be seen as the newer Members, post-1981, genuinely did feel that after this election we were presented with an opportunity to improve the image and credibility of the institutions of the State.

Some within this House are currently perpetuating the impression that politicians continue to ask the people to "do as I say and not as I do" and expect people to be so desperate, or perhaps so ignorant, that they will not mind if people's words actually mean nothing.

Words must mean something. I am proud and honoured to belong to a party that made it clear to the electorate how they saw the next Government being formed and sought votes on that basis. True, we lost seats but we lost them to parties who were then in a position with Fine Gael to form a Government for which the people, by their votes, indicated their support. Such a Government would have been a good Government for this country, combining the range of policies which truly reflects the tapestry of Irish society. This country needs a Government but this sitting today is no more than a fig leaf to cover the U-turns which have been made by both parties who are now part of the negotiations.

I know Deputy Dick Spring is an honourable, decent, committed man of our times, but he has not handled the responsibility laid on his shoulders in the best interests of this country. I cannot help but think, as I noted the silenced voices of such people as Deputy Emmet Stagg, Deputy Michael D. Higgins and others, that the words of the Tom Petty song will continue to haunt the Labour Party and its members as they face the horrendous problems ahead of them in Government and attempt to explain to the generous public who voted for them why they cannot bring about the changes they so heralded in their election campaign — they have backed down. There is just a little more.

There is more, stick around.

I have been listening longer than has the Deputy.

I was getting a little carried away. I hoped Deputy O'Sullivan might produce a guitar——

(Interruptions.)

—— and start strumming an old tune.

Deputy Owen is about to conclude. I want the House to afford her the utmost courtesy.

I want the next Government to be formed quickly and on a solid basis. It is important that the negotiators do their work properly. I want the next Government to work for this country. The future of my emigrant son and of many thousands of other emigrant sons and daughters depends on a prosperous future for this country so that they may return and participate in the growth and development of their homeland.

The fears and disappointments of the people at large after casting their votes in order to change the Taoiseach and the Government can best be summed up by a well known French saying, "plus ca change, plus c'est la mEme chose”. For those who have not started French lessons that means “the more things change, the more they are the same” Is this to be the hallmark of the next Government? I sincerely hope not.

It was my intention to talk on Deputy Owen's fig leaf analogy, but lest I be accused of being sexist, I will refrain from doing so. Deputy Owen said that words must mean something and if her good wishes are what she says and if she will extend them to the Labour Party, I will say thank you very much.

The people on the Fine Gael benches seem to forget that the Labour Party had previous experience with Fine Gael; some of the people on their benches may not be aware of that.

A most memorable experience.

Indeed, and I will get to that——

(Interruptions.)

Central to the Fine Gael contribution up to this point has been the questioning of the right of the Labour Party to enter negotiations with another party.

It is just that you cannot tell the truth.

You can have any colour you like as Mr. Henry Ford said, so long as it is black — you negotiate with us and nobody else.

When was the transfiguration?

(Interruptions.)

Just one second——

We should hear Deputy Toddy O'Sullivan without interruption.

I will refer to two other issues, unemployment and the beef tribunal.

The Deputy must not refer to the beef tribunal.

(Interruptions.)

Reference has been made to it. Deputy Noonan said that Fianna Fáil had been in Government for six years. They were there courtesy of the Fine Gael Party for part of that time. To what extent did the Tallaght strategy contribute to job losses? State intervention has been criticised. Can anybody say that the present market economy provided jobs without State intervention?

Are you going to vote for the budget next month?

I will get around to that. Without being accused of mentioning the beef tribunal, I can say that export credit insurance was mentioned earlier on. It is possible that some of that money could have found its way into the coffers of Fine Gael.

That is pathetic.

Do not rule out that possibility because the only party who were not beneficiaries, and it is on the record of the beef tribunal, was the Labour Party.

(Interruptions.)

Our hands are clean in that regard. We did not extend our grubby hands to take any part of that finance.

Mr. Kenny

The Deputy is associated with the crowd who went to Moscow.

No. I am getting nearer to the truth.

(Interruptions.)

Order. Let us keep the debate orderly. I would ask Deputy O'Sullivan not to provoke——

They are getting very touchy, a Cheann Comhairle.

A Deputy

What about the image on the £5 note?

I thought Tom and Pascal were the prominent Limerick comedians. It now seems they have a third comedian in Deputy Noonan. Deputy Noonan said that dozens of proposals had been put forward in the Programme for Government. That is true. Deputy Dukes threatened that he would mention the broadcasting Bill. I hope he does.

It is a promise, not a threat.

I listened with interest to what Deputy Owen had to say and bearing in mind her background and Cork roots, I would expect nothing else from her and I believe she means what she says.

It is more than people in Kerry do.

Do not tempt me. The one good thing about the negotiations was that the Deputy was sent to negotiate with us. He made our job a little easier in finding out who our eventual partners should be.

That is not true and the Deputy knows it.

He was a good envoy. Deputy Shatter made things easier for us when they sent him.

(Interruptions.)

You are beginning to sound like the little boys and girls that Santa Claus forgot.

Did Santa Claus do anything for the rates in Cork?

On two occasions I had to take a decision on whether we would go into Government with Fine Gael, once in the Gaiety Theatre. On that occasion I opposed for a very good reason. Eighteen months prior to that decision I contested a by-election in Cork where I transferred thousands of votes to the successful Fine Gael candidate who did not increase his vote by 1 per cent. I doubled the Labour Party vote on that occasion and transferred sufficient votes to give Fine Gael a seat. On that occasion, the triumphant candidate, Deputy Liam Burke came to the rostrum and said they were now going for an independent Fine Gael Government. I could forgive Deputy Burke on that occasion but he was followed by the then Deputy Garret FitzGerald, Leader of Fine Gael, who repeated what Deputy Burke had said.

The Deputy could not vote for him then.

He had to vote for Fianna Fáil after that.

Where was he in 1922? Can he go back that far?

There was then a very unstable period in Government. On the basis of a 14 point programme we entered into Government. What happened those 14 points? Were they honoured? Deputy Barrett was one of the people who violated them. When Fine Gael could not honour 14 points, why should they attempt to pre-empt any agreement with Fianna Fáil?

The Labour Party prevented it happening.

Deputy Dukes was the Minister responsible for Deputy Cluskey leaving the Cabinet, a man who had served his country loyally and courageously and who led the Labour Party with dignity. It was done by Deputy Dukes and the present leader, Deputy Bruton.

The Deputy was not there.

I was busy trying to prevent those Deputies handing the matter over to their friends.

The Deputy was in the pocket of the RTE group of unions and was afraid to move.

That is not true.

I was at the meetings; Deputy Dukes was not.

I would ask Members to concentrate on policy matters rather than personalities. Let us avoid personalities if we can.

One of the 14 points in the programme was a broadcasting Bill. Local broadcasting was to be developed with RTE and local community interests. It never happened because the then Minister wanted to give it to his friends rather than to act in accordance with the agreement.

It was because RTE wanted to take it over and the Labour Party were in their pocket.

Why was Deputy Nealon withdrawn from negotiations when we were near agreement? On that occasion he behaved honourably but he was withdrawn. My colleague, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, was a witness to that.

The Labour Party was bound hand and foot by the unions.

No. Let us return to the issue of Dublin Gas. Deputy Frank Cluskey was forced to leave the Cabinet. At that time I shared an office with him and was close to him until the time of his death. He was mortally wounded politically by these people. Let us not forget that, I will not forget it. Whatever gloss is put on it, that chapter of history cannot be erased.

Tell the rest of the story.

Who made a promise of unilateral nationalisation for which he had no authorisation?

These are the people who say we cannot reach agreement with Fianna Fáil, yet by their utterances today they have pre-empted any agreement that was likely to arise between us and Fine Gael. It is obvious that they were just stringing us along as they did in the past. The old order changeth. We are determined to do the best for this country.

It will be all right when they get the cars.

That little acolyte has been put on the backbenches. I will deal with it when the time comes.

Deputy O'Sullivan will have his Fianna Fáil membership card tonight.

There has been much posturing today. We can say with a clear conscience that we were not the recipients of largesse from any source. That was proved convincingly at the beef tribunal.

Will the Deputy reveal his sources?

It is in the media, in all the national dailies. The record is there. Deputy Dukes can check it out.

Deputy Dukes should be the last to criticise the Labour Party. He, by his Tallaght strategy, contributed in no small way to the numbers of people unemployed. It has been said that Deputy John Bruton discovered unemployment; I think he created it, or his predecessor did by the Tallaght strategy.

We will be looking for State involvement. A political decision has never been taken to nationalise any industry. Companies such as Bord na Móna, CIE, Irish Life and so on were not created because a Labour Government took a political decision on ideological grounds. The private sector were not prepared to put their money at risk and the State had to intervene. That is the difference between State intervention in this country and in Britain, where Labour Governments took decisions to nationalise steel, coal and other industries. I do not see anything obscene in the State becoming involved in trying to protect jobs under threat.

The House will have an opportunity next week to debate the programme for Government to be presented by Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party. The Dáil has been recalled today merely to hear the announcement already in the public press of the change in responsibilities in the Administration announced by the Taoiseach and to let us know that some further progress has been made in negotiations with a view to forming a Government next week.

I came into this House in 1975, at a time when the current Ceann Comhairle also held that position. He has an enviable record. At that time there was a Coalition Government comprised of Fine Gael and Labour. The points of policy in that plan had been drafted in a very short time by people who kept their word and whose word was their bond.

In 1987 the Labour Party proposed Deputy Spring for the position of Taoiseach. They did so again in 1989 and in 1992. I should not like anything I say in this House to be viewed as indicating sour grapes or as being unjustly personal about people elected democratically. We are 166 equals until a Government is presented to the people next week. The Labour Party believed, as they did a few weeks ago, that their leader, Deputy Spring, was a person fit to carry the responsibility and the banner of Taoiseach, and it was for those reasons, I would assume, that he was proposed for that position. It will be interesting to see whether, next Tuesday, they will continue in that tradition and register a further milestone by proposing the Labour Party Leader as Taoiseach in the knowledge that an agreement has already been drafted.

In the Dáil on 29 June 1989 the Leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Spring said at column 59, volume 391 of the Official Report:

I accept the need for an adjournment. I felt very strongly that it should be an adjournment of reasonable time so as to allow for serious negotiations to take place because of the impasse which has arisen in our political situation and because there is a very serious responsibility on Deputy Haughey and Deputy Dukes in particular, as leaders of the major parties who concur on economic policy, to facilitate the putting together of a Government.

Deputy Spring made those comments, on 29 June 1989 14 days after the people had spoken in the general election held on 15 June that year. Deputy Spring was then and still is of the opinion that a Government should be formed by the Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil parties. His remarks in that regard are on the record. Four days later, on 3 July 1989, when the then Taoiseach, Deputy Haughey, proposed a further adjournment, given the political impasse, Deputy Spring said and I quote from column 67, volume 391 of the Official Report.:

In relation to the proposal before us regarding the length of the adjournment, I find the proposal from Deputy Haughey unacceptable and I should like to outline to the House why I do. This House, as representative of the people who elected us, is absolutely entitled to a full and frank explanation of the dilemma now facing the country. By that I mean we are entitled to be told what discussions have taken place and with whom. We are entitled to have outlined to us the degree of progress made in the formation of a Government and the obstacles that emerged in the process.

During the past few days, while the negotiators continued to work, portions of the document, which we have not seen, have been leaked by one element to the national media. Four years ago Deputy Spring was of the opinion, while negotiations were taking place between the Progressive Democrats and the Fianna Fáil Parties, that this House was entitled to a full and frank explanation from the Taoiseach in regard to the obstacles that had to be overcome in the course of those discussions. That does not appear to be the case on this occasion. Indeed, the proposal that there be a further adjournment until next week is not opposed.

I have no difficulty in accepting that the pursuit of power is a perfectly legitimate and democratic end subsequent to a general election and I have no doubt that at this moment tomorrow's stories, arising from today's contributions, have already been written by the media and that speculation is continuing in the rooms of Leinster House and Government Buildings as to who will be given what portfolios when the agreement is drafted later this week. The agreement must be drafted given that the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party is due to meet on Thursday to give its consent to it, and the proposal that a Labour Party special delegate conference should be held later this week. The final matters are now being tied up.

In politics it is fair game to pursue the ball of power when it falls from the skies I say that without any hint of sour grapes from this party because the Government bus is leaving town and members of the Fine Gael Party are not on it. Rather I object to the occupants of the said Government bus.

In the recent election the Labour Party received, in its words, a mandate for change and to go into Government. When this mandate was clarified by the Leader, and other speakers in the Labour Party, the party was enabled to explore every avenue which might lead to the formation of a Government. These discussions began with Democratic Left and continued for more than a week. Discussions were then held with the Progressive Democrats and the Fine Gael Parties but this was just a sham. In my view that mandate, to explore all the avenues which might lead to the formation of a Government, has not been fulfilled by the Labour Party.

The Labour Party has discarded the option to which the majority of people gave their consent — a Government formed by the Labour Party, the Fine Gael Party and the Progressive Democrats. Even though the Labour Party did not like one of that particular trio, this was no reason to feast on the remains of what was once a powerful political force here, namely, the Fianna Fáil Party.

On this occasion the dropping ball of political power will be fielded cleanly by Deputy Spring——

He will knock-on.

——although it remains to be seen how far down the field of progress he will be able to move with it. His team partners have not always been strong team players. Indeed, in some cases they may want to deliberately obstruct their would-be partners next week. If the Government achieves any success or brings about change the Labour Party will claim credit for this because the appointees of the Taoiseach, Deputy Reynolds, have failed to deal with the problems facing the country.

Fianna Fáil back benchers know full well — talk is rife around this House — that the blame for the savaging they received on the doorsteps in November can be laid principally at the doorstep of the Taoiseach because of his inability to lead the country towards better times. Yet, they will attend a Fianna Fáil parliamentary party meeting later this week to fully endorse, presumably, a renewed programme for Government for the kind of Government which the people, in the opinion polls and by their votes, rejected. Fianna Fáil councillors, Deputies, Senators and supporters know their party has been devastated and, to use the Taoiseach's expression in a different context, they loathe going into partnership and Government with the Labour Party.

I listened to many of the contributions of members of the Labour Party, including some maiden speeches, prior to Christmas — congratulations are due to those who have been elected. Many of them were eloquent and well delivered but the common denominator in all those speeches was extra expenditure. The advice given independently to all the political leaders and parties is that in order to balance the books next year there will have to be cuts of between £400 million and £500 million or taxes will have to be raised.

In the presentation of his credentials for the position of Taoiseach Deputy Reynolds on more than one occasion referred to his experience and ability as a businessman. Would Deputy Reynolds run his business with money he did not have? Is he now proposing to fund all the elements of the new programme with money that is not available; or are the population to be blinded by an £8 billion cheque, at least it appears to be £8 billion, to be spent in ensuing years? How do the speeches of the new Labour Party Deputies, articulate and wishful though they be in terms of the availability of money, equate with the information, knowledge and understanding of the Fianna Fáil acting Government for a considerable time, that that kind of money is not there, that unless really though decisions are taken our financial and unemployment positions will worsen. I shudder to think of the mental state of many of the Labour Party's new Deputies consequent on their supporting the Government in the next two years.

We note the leaks from the negotiating teams such as free university education for everybody. There was once a theory here that at least 90 per cent of our people should receive a decent primary education. As we developed it was considered that 90 per cent of our people should at least receive a decent secondary education. We are now being blasted by headlines proposing that 90 per cent of our population should receive a university education. That is not in any way to decry that as an aspiration, but it should be borne in mind that henceforth other very fine, fundamental methods and facilities in education will be deemed to be inferior to this new free university education for all.

When one examines our unemployment position and the position in other countries where stringent measures have been taken to reduce their levels — some successful — we discover that the crafts, skills and trades not requiring full university education constitute a very fine method of dealing with the element of unemployment as it pertains.

The agreement to be concluded this week may well be the salvation of the Taoiseach, Deputy Albert Reynolds but, to use his own words, it may be only a temporary little arrangement. It could well lead to the demise of his own party

Those who will form the new Government are to be wished well. Certainly, it will lead to a fundamental change in the type of political debates in this House, with a Government in excess of 100 Members faced by an Opposition of 55 to 60, mostly centre right. The Government will have 50 to 60 backbenchers who will be silenced except for the mutterings and rumours that will emanate from the party rooms after some months and will include some Members at present levitated since the negotiations began with Fianna Fáil on the assumption that a State car and entry to a State Department will mean immortality in terms of their good name in the minds of the electorate. I might point out that Gray's elegy included the following:

Let not ambition mock their useful toil,...

Being a practical, pragmatic politician I fully understand that this deal is signed, sealed and has only to be delivered. I fully understand that the Government will be opposed by the Fine Gael and Progressive Democrats parties, certainly in some cases by the Independents. I am not sure what will be the degree of solidarity obtaining between Democratic Left and the Labour Party in Government. Next week will afford us an opportunity to discuss the programme being presented by the Taoiseach and Government.

I reiterate I am disappointed, feel let down, that all the avenues opened up consequent on the mandate given to the Labour Party for the formation of a Government were not fully explored or pursued. It is somewhat like a person from the country travelling to Dublin for the sales, purchasing what is deemed to be a bargain and on arriving home being told there was a better bargain to be had in a different shop. Next week will afford us an opportunity to debate that issue. If the tenor of this afternoon's debate is anything to go on, I predict we shall be in for a very lively session indeed.

I listened carefully to all Members' contributions, especially to those of the Fine Gael Party. I must confess to having been very disappointed at their quality and calibre. As a fairly neutral observer of this debate I did not perceive any alternative leadership, any sharp, clear thinking demonstrated by Fine Gael Members. The most thoughtful contribution was that of Deputy Enda Kenny, the last speaker. The rest comprised a mixture of bogus punditry, creamy sarcasm and cynicism, which is no good. Such people ought to be able to demonstrate some enlightenment, some statesmanship on an occasion such as this rather than fritter away time and money engaging in useless contributions.

I was particularly disappointed at their Leader's, Deputy John Bruton, contribution. His was a long, convoluted contribution demonstrating no awareness of the economic problems afflicting the country. Neither did he demonstrate any enlightened leadership or sharp thinking in the course of his remarks or show the electorate a way forward.

Deputy Noonan, the Fine Gael spokesman on Finance, displayed mostly gallows humour and sarcasm in the course of his remarks—whistling past the graveyard. If his party had this talent, this ability, how did it not manifest itself in recent polls? If that party has what it says it has to offer surely the electorate would have recognised that long ago and voted for it? In my constituency Deputy Noonan has not been a great vote-getter. Indeed, he was elected this time round with some help from my party; he had quite a struggle to be elected. Surely he should feel somewhat humiliated by that experience and demonstrate some humble consideration? Instead in the House today he indulged in a carefree manner. As I said in an interjection, Deputy Noonan's performance made Al Jolson's mammy act appear inferior. That is no good for the country. That type of performance might be all right at a county council meeting on, say, a wet day to entertain the public gallery but, if one is looking to politicians to point a way forward, to find the requisite finances to resolve our current problems, one will not look to the Fine Gael benches. I might add that the Labour Party will not take any criticism from the same Fine Gael Party.

We were not elected to this House as some kind of penny boys, or on sufferance; in two constituencies our candidates headed the poll. We are a separate, independent party and will not be berated by anybody or accept such criticism. Our electoral strength is now almost equal to that of Fine Gael and we are rapidly gaining on it as a party. Therefore, we will not accept such lectures from that party or be treated as if we were some kind of small, penny boys here on sufferance. As far as we are concerned, that day is past. By engaging in that type of criticism today the Fine Gael Party has not impressed me nor, I imagine, the electorate who expect more from it.

We heard much about the Tallaght strategy in the past and of how constructive were the Fine Gael Party, how destructive were the Fianna Fáil Party. The Fine Gael Party today gave the country a very bad example of what Opposition should be like. As I said in an earlier contribution on this issue, Fine Gael's contributions demonstrated a mixture of sour grapes and a dog in the manger type attitude. That is no good for the future of our country.

We entered the general election as an independent party, with independent policies. We asked the people to give Democratic Left and other like-minded candidates their second preferences. Beyond that we gave no commitment to anybody. After the general election we found ourselves being obligated to help form a Government. We are doing so in a conscientious, honest way, making no apologies to anybody. We make no apologies for having discussions with Fianna Fáil. What we did not find after the general election was a magic wand with which to solve the nation's problems, for example, those of the 300,000 unemployed, the monetary problems within the EC and elsewhere and our national debt. There was hardly any mention in the House today of those three issues but if Members could address them in a positive manner rather than play acting and making farcical comments they would be making a positive contribution.

Our negotiations with Fianna Fáil are drawing to a conclusion. In an honest and conscientious way we will do our best to provide good government. We will be judged, not on what Fine Gael say, but on our performance in government and on what we do for the people. That may sound an old fashioned concept but I did not come here to be upbraided by Fine Gael, I came here to do a job of work, and that work will be done to the best of our ability. We make no apology to Fine Gael or to any other critics who have come into the House. I am disappointed with the performance of Fine Gael today, with the nonsense they have engaged in. Deputy Dukes on a good day — today was a bad day for him — is capable of giving a good analytical account. He interjected a number of times today. If that is going to be the tenor of his contribution I have a good idea of what it will be like.

Stay in the House and find out.

Deputy Dukes is capable of being objective and impressive in what he says. I say this before hearing his speech: let us put an end to this silly, useless carping criticism that has gone on here——

We listened to it for five years from the Labour Party.

That was before Jim joined the Labour Party.

——and which has disfigured and disgraced the Fine Gael Party today in the House. We have had too much of this nonsense in the past. Young people are disgusted with the carping criticism, the slagging and the bitter squabbling which has characterised Irish politics for so long.

Epitomised by Deputy Spring.

They are not looking for this kind of interjection but for a positive programme that will help to solve the problems of this country.

Six jobs on the backs of the unemployed.

We will not be deflected from our negotiations with Fianna Fáil. We are not attempting to whitewash our criticisms of Fianna Fáil in the past. Those criticisms are on record; we will not be withdrawing them but we will do the best we can to get on with life because you can learn from the past but you cannot live in the past. The problem with Fine Gael is that they are rooted in the past, they cannot move forward. The party, including its leadership, has lost its way in Irish politics. It has no defined image whatever.

That is wishful thinking.

We are the upcoming party. We make no apology to anybody for achieving 33 seats. We will do our best for the Irish people and the party we represent in government with Fianna Fáil.

Six jobs on the backs of the unemployed.

Please, Deputy Allen, let us hear your colleague Deputy Jim Higgins, without interruption.

I will be brief because there are other speakers with possibly more worthy contributions. As we are aware, today is 5 January. Exactly two months ago, on 5 November, Deputy Spring got to his feet in this House and passed a damning judgement on the Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds, and the Fianna Fáil Government. Deputy Spring told us that he was going to lead the Labour Party through the division lobbies to vote against Mr. Reynolds and the Fianna Fáil party which, he said, practised the politics of the gutter.

Mr. Spring had absolutely no confidence either in Mr. Reynolds or in Fianna Fáil. According to Mr. Spring it was a Government beset by scandals. Mr. Spring accused Mr. Reynolds of cheapening and debasing political life. Mr. Spring rightly scorned Mr. Reynolds on the grounds that having promised open government when he assumed power, he had called subsequently on the Supreme Court to establish Cabinet secrecy.

I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy but there is a convention, indeed it is a long standing one, that Members be referred to by their appropriate title in this House, be it Taoiseach, Minister, Minister of State or Deputy and I should like that to be conformed to.

According to Deputy Spring the Taoiseach was bereft of the ability to conduct himself with dignity. According to Deputy Spring the Taoiseach and company, in the national interest, had to be booted from office because they were mistrusted, incompetent and practised low standards. That was Deputy Spring's studied and calculated assessment of the Taoiseach — a gutter politician, a furtive man who liked to cover up, a man mistrusted who knowingly presided over and presumably condoned scandals; incompetent and not even possessing that most basic of ingredients, dignity. That was a crafted, hard hitting speech in which Deputy Spring rightly reviled the ten month reign of the Taoiseach. The speech was well covered in the media that evening and the following day. Anyone could be forgiven for assuming that Deputy Spring was a man of his word and meant what he said. The tenor and thrust of his speech was such that if he really believed even a fraction of what he was saying he would not be seen dead on the same side of the street as the Taoiseach, Deputy Reynolds. As Deputy Spring rightly put it, it would be "amazing that any party would consider coalescing with them". That was two months ago and, today mirabile dictu, Deputy Spring author of such vitriol and character assassination, is now about to lead his merry band of men and women across the floor of the House, guess where, to the Fianna Fáil benches to sit down and hold hands with the political party that only such a short time ago had, “gone so far down the road to blindness, to low standards, that it was impossible to see how anyone could support them”. If ever there was a case of a U-turn or indeed of An Dall ag treoireadh An Dall, this is it. As for Deputy Spring himself, we reserve pride of place for him, the number two spot, where the Minister of State is now sitting, the Tánaiste's seat side by side with, side-kick to the Taoiseach, Deputy Reynolds, the man he accused this day two months ago of whispering behind his hands and encouraging others to do likewise about the cost of the beef tribunal.

Deputy Spring, for all his acknowledged shrewdness, would want to realise one or two realities about life and particularly about political life. While politics is the art of the possible, you cannot do somebody down with the hostility and venom that Deputy Spring displayed towards the Taoiseach two months ago. You cannot denigrate and castigate the character of a person in the trenchant terms Deputy Spring did about the Taoiseach's unsuitability to hold office and now a few short weeks later, with any credibility whatever, seek to establish a working partnership for Government. It simply does not wash and simply will not work.

Fresh from the allegation two months ago that Fianna Fáil cannot be trusted, there is now a sudden Labour inspired confidence that new integrity and standards will be injected. Is the bungling incompetence of Fianna Fáil which was the source of Labour mirth in this House two months ago now to be replaced by a new Labour led competence? Is the Taoiseach's incapacity to provide leadership to be transformed by Deputy Spring, in the number two jersey, giving him the perpetual lift in the scrum of Government? Is the Fianna Fáil culture of low standards, of strokes and scandals, to be purged by the high sounding and innocuous Labour Ethics Bill? Was the Taoiseach really bereft of the dignity, as a person of which Deputy Spring accused or is the dignity there all the time, latent, waiting to be found, tapped and unearthed by the Labour Party? Or is it that Deputy Spring simply did not mean anything he said in this House two months ago and previously about the Taoiseach but that he was playing at being a political stuntman and contortionist?

Labour can huff and puff and posture as much as it wants about reform, about straightening out the system — and I am sure that the new document for Government will be dressed up in the purifying language of accountability and transparency — but where has it been for the past three weeks? While we were all being treated to the opening television snatches of the daily negotiations for Government being carried out in Government Buildings with due solemnity, as has been said repeatedly in this House today, Fianna Fáil has wiped Labour's eye. It has packed every single vacancy on a raft of semi-State bodies with Fianna Fáil hacks and hatchet men; it has made 200 appointments to Bord na Móna, Aer Lingus, Bord Fáilte, RTE, An Post, Telecom Éireann, Bord Tráchtála, the Higher Education Authority, Dublin City University, the University of Limerick and Eolas as well as others. It has also appointed judges to the District Courts, the Central Criminal Court and the Supreme Court.

I distinctly remember that approximately five months ago when we debated in this House the Regional Technical College and Dublin Institute of Technology Bills the Labour Party and I fought vigorously with Minister Brennan about his changing the text of the original Bill in order to vest in himself the right to appoint the chairman to each regional technical college and Dublin Institute of Technology governing body. We rightly warned of the time honoured Fianna Fáil record of using such positions and appointments as "jobs for the boys." We were assured by the Minister that only people of the highest calibre would be appointed. Yet at Cabinet, Minister Brennan's list of calibre appointees, mainly Fianna Fáil appointees — business people with considerable experience and standing — was replaced by the Taoiseach's list of his chosen lieutenants. Even in Deputy Spring's home base of Tralee, the Taoiseach's appointee as chairman was imported from Cork regional technical college.

What a coincidence that in December 1992 County Longford should produce so many highly qualified people for State positions — people such as Fianna Fáil councillor James Coyle who was appointed a director of Bord na Móna; the Taoiseach's right-hand man, Mr. Benny Reid of Aughnacliffe, who was appointed to the board of CERT; Mr. Joe Deane who was appointed to the board of Nitrigín Éireann Teoranta and Fianna Fáil officer Tom Donlon who was appointed to the board of Eolas. There were other appointments also. The already appointed Mr. Noel O'Hanlon, another right-hand man of the Taoiseach and formerly of the now closed O'Hanlon ambulance company from County Longford who let several hundred people go during the industrial relations dispute, is chairman of the VHI with the attendant perks, not least of which is a specially provided VHI Mercedes Benz car.

At present so-called high powered, delicate negotiations are taking place to form a Government with Labour's so-called avowed aim of cleaning out the system, yet right in front of their eyes, in full public gaze, as if by way of a direct dare or challenge, Fianna Fáil in an act of brazen provocation appoint 200 plus of their own members to important and sometimes highly paid positions for the next four to five years. There is not a whimper about this from Deputies Quinn, Taylor or Howlin, let alone from Deputy Spring. All I can say is that Fianna Fáil must have had some fun at cumainn meetings as they drafted the various short lists for submission and appointment. If this type of dumb spectator compliance is going to be the hallmark of Labour's contribution and input to building a new Ireland, I am afraid that like 1992, each of the years 1993, 1994, 1995 and 1996 will be an annus horribilis.

Whatever else he may be, Deputy Spring is certainly not naive. He has chosen to turn a blind eye to what Fianna Fáil is at. The spate of appointments which have been made by a caretaker Taoiseach and Government right in front of Deputy Spring's nose is a blatant abuse of power, privilege and public money. If Labour was serious about showing any great intent in relation to restoring standards then it would have fired a shot the moment the first silent appointment was made, would have insisted on such appointment being rescinded and would have vetoed any further appointments by insisting that they all be put on ice until such time as a new Government came into office. As I have said, Deputy Spring is certainly not politically naive and what he has chosen to do in relation to this piece of Fianna Fáil hatchetwork is to deliberately turn a blind eye. However, that is entirely a matter for the Labour Party and Deputy Spring. If Deputy Spring is unwilling or unable to assert himself at this early stage, particularly when he has Fianna Fáil literally over a barrel and clawing in order to get back into office, it augurs very poorly for his ability and performance in the major tests ahead, and there will be many major testing times ahead.

If Deputy Spring can square his actions and performance with his political conscience then I will be happy for him. If he can sell that to his Labour Party delegate conference, as I am sure he will, then good luck to him. However, the one thing I am sure of is that he will not be able to sell it to the legions of floating voters who gave him the nod on this occasion in the vain expectation that they were voting for change, that they were banishing the Taoiseach and Fianna Fáil from office, now only to see Deputy Spring handing the political oxygen mask to Deputy Reynolds and company and helping to put them back into office for the next four years.

It is now patently clear that Labour's intention from the very outset was to enter into coalition with Fianna Fáil, that this, in fact, was the preferred option. It is also quite obvious that in order to bring these circumstances about everything was done by Labour to contaminate the political atmosphere for talks with Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats. We should remember that it was Deputy Spring and not Deputy John Bruton who put down the firm marker that there should be a rotating Taoiseach. That was a fixed position for talks with Fine Gael but, as has been said already in this House such condition has now completely evaporated; Labour is not even looking now for the Finance Ministry let alone the Taoiseach's position. Again, the Democratic Left, which Labour did everything possible to denigrate and subjugate during the period 1987-89 and again from 1989-92, had to be part of the negotiations and even part of the Government if a deal was to be done with Fine Gael. Today's negotiations are drawing to a conclusion and the name Democratic Left is not even a tiny element in the equation. Labour boasted openly that Deputy Dick Spring was meeting Deputy John Bruton in the Constitutional Room in the Shelbourne Hotel to "put manners on Mr. Bruton", according to MEP Mr. Barry Desmond. How can one put manners on a party Leader who is without a shadow of doubt one of the straightest men ever to grace the Irish political scene, who is the very essence of integrity, who is one of the most original political thinkers of our time, who has not a political taint of blemish on his character or career and who does not go for the easy option? Was it not another Labour leader in a different setting at a different time who pronounced that a week is a long time in politics? Two months has been a very long time indeed. All I can say to Deputy Dick Spring is that if it works, it will have been a nice neat trick.

It has been clear for over three weeks that when the thick fog of political deception lifts and the inspired leaks of the negotiating teams end, we are to have the ultimate offering in political cynicism — a Fianna Fáil-Labour Government. I think it is appropriate that we should take some time this afternoon to reflect on this political hybrid before it appears in its full and consummated glory before the House resumes next week. It is also appropriate that current political events coincide with the festive Christmas holiday period. This is the season of pantomime, of theatrical illusion, fictional frolics and magical display. It is the time of the conjurer, the magician and trickster. It is a period when on stage men play women, women play men and nothing appears to be what it seems. Moreover, it is also the season when the circus comes to town and apparently when the National Concert Hall will entertain the Labour Party faithful.

It is more with a personal sense of sadness than anger that I watch bestriding the national political stage a piece of political theatre that fits much of this description. In lighter moments, I am tempted to view it as farce but for most of the time a darker mood prevails. Then for me, as I believe for many thousands of others outside this House, it is nothing but pure tragedy.

It is the tragedy of the lost opportunity and the undermining of democracy. It is the tragedy of the triumph of cynicism over principle, of weasel words over truth and decency. Thankfully, even in tragedy there is occasion for laughter, if for no other reason than to preserve our sanity and perspective on life, be it political or otherwise. For in this, as in many good Shakespearean productions, there are the all too brief appearances by the clowns.

A part of the problem is, of course, the perspective, politically speaking. In recent days, the roles of the hero, villain and clown have become confused until in the public mind the distinctions have blurred and the characters have become indistinguishable. I will return to this theme.

Fianna Fáil has been in Government for a full six years. During its first term in office as a minority Government, from 1987 to 1989, Fine Gael by application of the Tallaght strategy ensured public expenditure was contained and the Exchequer borrowing requirement brought under control. We also used our position to force through social reforming measures for which Fianna Fáil had no enthusiasm and in which they had no interest. The Adoption Act, 1988, and the Judicial Separation and Family Law Reform Act, 1989, are two examples. There are others. In these areas it was Fine Gael and not the Labour Party who took the initiative as social reformers.

During its second term in office which commenced in 1989, Fianna Fáil was in coalition with the Progressive Democrats. Since October, of course, we have had a Fianna Fáil minority and now an ongoing Fianna Fáil caretaker Government. When a Government has a majority, the power of the Opposition is reduced. Nevertheless, Fine Gael played a constructive parliamentary role during the 1989-92 period. We shone the political spotlight on the growing unemployment crisis and proposed a variety of constructive initiatives at a time when others were only paying political lip-service to our rapidly growing dole queues.

We helped expose a variety of scandals such as Carysfort, Telecom and Greencore. In relation to the beef industry, in this House, we concentrated on the extraordinary failure of Government and the appalling lack of judgment displayed in regard to export credit insurance and the IDA's sponsored package of proposals designed to elevate the Goodman Group to the status of a semi-State body. Unlike others, the leaders of Fine Gael during this period did not use the Dáil Chamber to engage in character assassination of people outside this House who could not defend themselves, nor did they personalise criticism of the Taoiseach of the day or of Ministers. Criticism voiced related to ministerial competence displayed and never descended to personal rancour. Allegations were never made that could not be stood over.

During this period also Fine Gael succeeded in using its position in Opposition to press the Government to either introduce or support a variety of reforming measures. Legal, social and environmental reforms were enacted that would never have seen the light of day without initiatives taken by the Fine Gael Party. Sadly, little that Fine Gael achieved during this period has been acknowledged.

During the 1987-92 period, the Leader of the Labour Party was portrayed regularly as some sort of colossus astride the political stage. When Fine Gael, in the national interest from the Opposition benches, adhered to the Tallaght strategy, Deputy Spring and his colleagues never missed an opportunity to rhetorically dump political manure over the heads of Fine Gael Deputies. His penchant to oppose everything and deride everybody resulted in his political canonisation — the leader of a mere 14 Deputies in the Dáil in the era of the newstime sound bite was said to be the real leader of the Opposition.

What political commentators missed, as tragically did tens of thousands who voted for Labour in the recent election, was that none of the opposition was real. It was simply Bar Library special pleading decorated with a colourful ribbon of political rhetoric. It was all a sham.

Few, if any, Labour voters contemplated the possibility that Labour would prop up or join Fianna Fáil in Government. If Deputy Spring had signalled such intention, he would have been lucky to have been returned to this Dáil with a dozen Deputies, let alone 33. I suspect also that few of the 33 Deputies elected for Labour truly contemplated such a possibility. This is something cooked up by Deputy Spring together with his backroom kitchen cabinet most of whom are unelected and unaccountable to the public and to the Labour parliamentary party for their actions.

Sadly, many newly elected Labour Deputies have landed in this House on their leader's slip-stream and, in awe of his position and stature, are too dumbstruck to voice opposition to the direction of current events and are merely mouthing complacent support. Many of the newly arrived, on the day of the count of the next election as Labour seats tumble around them, will look back on their current silence and acquiescence as a fundamental error. They will wonder why none of them went to the trouble to read the Fine Gael Programme for Government published three weeks ago and why no serious negotiations were undertaken to form a Government involving Labour, Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats. They will wonder why they failed to notice there existed a great measure of consensus between these three parties on social issues that provided for the implementation of an agenda of the most radical programme of social reform in the history of the State. They will puzzle over why Deputy Spring regarded getting into bed with 68 Fianna Fáil Deputies a more attractive proposition than cohabiting with 45 Fine Gael and ten Progressive Democrat Members of this House.

Perhaps the answer is that it is more exciting to climb into bed with a partner who promises new positions than with one whose positions are known and trusted and coincide with yours. Or maybe Deputy Spring was simply intimidated by the prospect of a political ménage à trois. Perhaps he simply felt more at home with Deputy Reynolds, the current caretaker Taoiseach, as a political supplicant than with Deputies Bruton and O'Malley as independent men of principle.

I cannot help but wonder how a Fianna Fáil-Labour Government is more attractive to my constitutency colleague, Deputy Eithne Fitzgerald who, regrettably, is not present, whose extraordinary poll topping exploits are still a major talking point and I have frequently joined forces with her to oppose many of Fianna Fáil's outrageous and indefensible rezoning proposals on Dublin County Council.

I wonder about Deputy Jim Kemmy for whom I have always had both friendship and respect and at whose request I travelled to Limerick in 1988 to address a public meeting on the Judicial Separation Bill at a time when it was opposed by Fianna Fáil. On radio, he explained it all away as being simply business — a strange explanation of current events from a socialist Deputy. Having regard to past critical comments made by him in relation to ethical standards deployed in some areas of Irish business, this comment might have had a greater significance than even he realised at the time or yet in view of his disappointing and somewhat pathetic contribution in the House today.

I wonder about Deputy Niamh Bhreathnach who voiced opposition to Fianna Fáil's blatant disregard for the health of women in the recent abortion referendum. I wonder about Deputy Seán Ryan who has assailed Fianna Fáil for its blatant disregard for the homeless and its failure to tackle the jobs crisis. I wonder about Deputy Michael D. Higgins, a consistent critic of Fianna Fáil on a wide variety of issues. I wonder how any of these Deputies and their colleagues can join forces with the most reactionary and backward looking party in this House. I particularly wonder whether the true implications of what they are doing have yet dawned on all Labour Deputies.

A total of 39 per cent of the first preference votes cast in November were for Fianna Fáil who sought a mandate for a one-party Government. Over 60 per cent favoured the rest, i.e. 60 per cent of those who voted favoured sending Fianna Fáil into Opposition. The formation of a Fianna Fáil-Labour Government is a corruption of the democratic process and a betrayal of those who voted for Labour and who voted for, and were promised, change. The party that promised the electorate change is now extending to Fianna Fáil its longest uninterrupted period in office for over 20 years. It is turning a scandal ridden incompetent party lacking in backbone that 60 per cent of the people of this country rejected and want put out of office into a permanent party of Government.

In this House, on 5 November last, Deputy Spring attacked the Taoiseach stating that "he is not a Taoiseach who has ever received a mandate from the people". He went on to state that "he was elected Taoiseach following a typical Fianna Fáil power play. He owes his mandate as much to the former Cathaoirleach of the Seanad as to anyone else". It appears that, following the vote that is to take place in a few days time, Deputy Reynolds is to remain "a Taoiseach who has never received a mandate from the people". He will continue to retain office following a typical Fianna Fáil power play in which Fianna Fáil clothes will also be worn by members of the Labour Party. The only difference will be that the role Deputy Spring formerly accredited to the Senator now Deputy Seán Doherty will be played by Deputy Spring himself. If this was the world of the movies, it would be entitled "Back to the Future 3".

In that speech of 5 November in this House before the Dáil was dissolved Deputy Spring expressed the hope that Fianna Fáil would be "swept out of office" as a party as it had by its "behaviour time and time again ...cheapened and debased one of the highest callings there is and dishonoured those who serve the public in political life". This is the party that Labour has now chosen to sweep into office and keep in Government.

In the same speech Deputy Spring described the current caretaker Taoiseach and present permanent Taoiseach in waiting, Deputy Reynolds, as being incapable of providing leadership or direction. He did not mince his words. Referring to the man Labour Deputies will be supporting in a vote for Taoiseach in a few days time, Deputy Spring listed a whole series of reasons for not appointing Deputy Reynolds as Taoiseach. I will refer to some of them. In volume 424, columns 2313-14 of the Official Report of 5 November 1992, he said:

This is the Taoiseach who promised open Government, but whose Government fought in the Supreme Court to establish a system of Cabinet secrecy that files in the face of that promise.

...This is the Taoiseach who talked about a Government for all the people, but whose policies have been viciously cruel to many thousands of people who live on the margins of our society. This is the Taoiseach who talks about consensus, but who governs behind closed doors.

... This is the Taoiseach who says over and over again that the buck stops with him, but who makes every effort he can to ensure that the buck lands in the lap of the civil servants who work for him on behalf of the State. This is the Taoiseach who preaches about respect for the institutions of State in this House, but who has lost the ability to conduct himself with dignity in any crisis, as we have seen in recent days.

Is the curriculum vitae so comprehensively and eloquently drawn up by Deputy Spring, the one that members of the Labour Party believe worthy of approving in voting for Deputy Reynolds as Taoiseach for a full Government term — in case there be any doubt about it, a full term is what it is to be? Unlike Dougal on “The Magic Roundabout”, Deputy Reynolds is not apparently for either turning or for rotation. It also seems it was not an issue on which he was seriously pushed.

In the Dáil, on 22 December, six weeks after delivering the above diatribe, Deputy Spring assured the House that "everything that was in that speech was important to me then and it is important to me now". I wonder about that word "important" and what it means. I wonder did Deputy Spring when he delivered his speech on 5 November or does he now believe anything he said in it? If he does believe it, how can he enter Government with Deputy Reynolds? If he did not believe what he said, why did Deputy Spring deliver such a speech in the first place?

How can the Taoiseach retain any self-respect or stature by entering government with Deputy Spring? Has Deputy Reynolds asked Deputy Spring to withdraw these criticisms on the floor of this House or has he simply been assured by Deputy Spring that he never meant what he said? After all, was it not Deputy Spring who acknowledged that "no member of a government can operate effectively if his or her integrity is challenged for purely political motives" by another colleague in government? That was also said on 5 November. Presumably, it is no longer a relevant consideration.

Referring implicity on 22 December to a passage in his earlier speech where he stated with reference to Fianna Fáil that "one political party in this House has gone so far down the road of blindness to standards and of blindness to the people they are supposed to represent that it is impossible to see how anyone could support them in the future without seeing them first undergo the most radical transformation", Deputy Spring stated "in our discussions with Fianna Fáil we have detected an awareness of the need for fundamental change". Presumably, some type of political Geiger-counter or water diviner was deployed in the detection process. If it was, Sir, it clearly was not working in the light of the serious scandals in regard to the appointments that were made in recent weeks by Fianna Fáil as caretaker Government. If no Geiger-counter or water diviner was employed, perhaps Deputy Spring and his happy band of negotiators have witnessed a revelation of amazing proportions that remains hidden from the rest of us. It must be truly amazing as in that speech of 5 November, Deputy Spring also stated at column 2318:

Given these three things — the low standards exemplified by past and present members of the Government; the policy of forcing the most vulnerable sectors of our community to carry the burden of financial adjustments and modernisations; and the undermining of some of the country's most important economic assets — it must surely be considered amazing that any party would consider coalescing with them.

The "them" is, of course, Fianna Fáil. The amazing is about to happen.

These two speeches when examined against the actions of the Labour leadership are breathtaking in their hypocrisy. Words when uttered by the Labour Leader have ceased to have any meaning. They mean what he says they mean at a particular time and their meaning can change as circumstances change.

Such an approach was classically described by George Orwell in his book 1984 as “double-think”, and the language used to articulate it as newspeak. Last May in this House referring to Fianna Fáil's approach to the X case, I quoted a passage from Orwell which epitomised politics as practised by Fianna Fáil. I will not delay the House by repeating it. Suffice to say that clearly the new political order is such that the philosophy of double-think and the language of newspeak are also to be practised by Fianna Fáil's soon to be junior partners in Government.

Deputy Spring and members of the Labour Party should be under no illusion as to the public outrage generated by their behaviour. It is seen not so much a U-turn as a backward flip. The voiceless, the unrepresented and the marginalised sectors of our community in whose direction Deputy Spring regularly pays lip service in his penchant for engaging in levitation politics now include the 330,000 people who voted for the Labour Party in November last. I do not think that they will again at any future date, be seduced by soft focus pictures on their television screens of the Labour leader gazing wistfully over cliffs as mild music plays in the background. I look forward, Sir, to the type of party political broadcast the Labour Party may change to for the next election.

It could have been different. Deputy Bruton, the Leader of the Fine Gael Party and Deputy O'Malley were both sincere in seeking co-operation from the Labour Party in putting in place an entirely new Government built on a common set of policies and a relationship of mutual respect and trust. In contrast, in the days following the election, Deputy Spring and his colleagues deliberately set out to destroy any possibility of a relationship of trust and mutual respect developing. At no stage would Deputy Spring agree to a joint meeting of Deputies O'Malley, Bruton and himself to lay the foundations for engaging in the comprehensive negotiations necessary for the formation of a three party government. Deputy Spring's apparent problem was that Deputies Bruton and O'Malley, unlike Deputy Reynolds, would not go to him on bended knee and pledge fealty. They were people determined to retain their personal sense of decency, integrity and independence.

Few who voted Labour now believe anything the Labour Leader says. When the Fianna Fáil/Labour programme for Government is published with a great fanfare of political trumpets, no one will believe any of the promises contained in it. Just as Fianna Fáil failed to seduce the majority of electors with their basket of election promises in November, few will in the month of January take seriously the recycled list of promises that will be contained in the Government programme. Fianna Fáil/Labour post-Christmas sales talk will be no more convincing than was the Fianna Fáil pre-Christmas sales election manifesto.

Moreover, neither will credibility be given to any assurances forthcoming from Deputy Spring whose arrogance is growing with his every appearance in this House. It is astounding that the Labour Leader should tell the House this afternoon that he will give the House assurances as to the validity of the programme. Does he not realise how damaged he is and how damaged his credibility is in the eyes of the general public? No doubt, as he did in this House on 5 November and on 22 December last, he will continue to speak of truth and integrity in politics and see all criticism of him as media conspiracy.

The reality, of course, is different. For the past three years Deputy Spring has led a charmed political life in the media, which continued throughout the general election campaign. I became increasingly alarmed during that campaign at Deputy Spring's evasive answers when questioned about his post-election intentions; little or no coverage was given to statements I made challenging him as to his intentions and predicting the possibility of a Fianna Fáil-Labour Government. These statements were no doubt perceived as being so at variance with Deputy Spring's whole approach to politics and things he has said in the Dail in the immediate run-up to the elections as not to be worthy of publication or serious coverage. They have sadly proved to be prophetic.

Like the general public, the electorate, the editorial writers and political commentators are entitled to feel aggrieved at being so seriously misled. Deputy Spring, either as Tánaiste or Leader of the Labour Party, should resist the temptation to engage in any further special pleading in this House about his commitment to truth and integrity.

Truth and integrity are two political currencies which were heavily traded by Labour in the prelude to and during the general election campaign. Never has a currency been so rapidly devalued and debased — or, perhaps in the new language of Eurospeak we should speak simply of a semantical realignment. Deputy Spring's first and only major political achievement in the heady days that followed the November election has been to give both truth and integrity a bad name.

There is no doubt, that in the days that follow, the political circus will continue. The Government party spinners will tell yarns of how one or other party has triumphed in the negotiation process and how we are now on the verge of a great new dawn. We will be told more about the "good chemistry" between Deputies Quinn and Ahern and will marvel at their comradely implosions. We will learn more of how the Labour combatants struggled with Fianna Fáil to secure their agreement on the holding of a divorce referendum and to take action to guarantee greater integrity in politics, issues which would have caused no difficulty to either the Fine Gael or Progressive Democratic Parties. We might even be on the receiving end of further revelations from the Labour clown — or was it a court jester — who told The Irish Times that Labour expected to do better in Government with Fianna Fáil because the Civil Service took Fianna Fáil more seriously than other parties. No doubt the heroes will stand on their soap boxes to proclaim the coming of the new dawn. I expect, however, that it is more likely that it will ultimately be the clowns who will hold centre stage.

Nothing done or said by any of the participants in this shoddy affair can hide the fact that this will be a Government lacking an electoral mandate formed in circumstances which will only fuel the general public's disillusion and cynicism with politics and politicians.

It was difficult to listen to Deputy John Bruton lecturing the Labour Party backbenchers, it might be better for him to keep an eye on his own backbenchers, to lecture them or install wing mirrors on his Front Bench.

The Labour Party in 1973, 1981 and 1982 put Deputy Bruton's party in Government and placed him in a Mercedes, but unfortunately, he was responsible for bringing down two of those Governments. However, during the 1989 election Deputy John Bruton advised the electorate in his constituency that a vote for the Labour Party was a wasted vote. He advised them to give their second preference votes to the Progressive Democrats. However, he was glad of Labour Party votes when a Labour Party candidate was eliminated; he did not say they were wasted votes. I do not want Deputy John Bruton or his party to shed any crocodile tears for the Labour Party, he should weep for himself and for his own party. The Labour Party are able to handle themselves, as they have done for many years in this House and will continue to do so for many years to come.

Deputy John Bruton was highly critical of further State spending which is advocated by The Labour Party. He might have taken a different view if he had looked at the roads in his constituency, the hospital services or the schools, and multiplied the problems by the number of other constituencies. Obviously, he has not identified the problems. For example, he should look at the housing list in the various constituencies and see the problems of those who do not have a house and then he might not tell the House that there should not be further State spending. It was his actions and those of his party in regard to the Tallaght strategy which caused many of the present difficulties.

The Labour Party will not be part of a Government which will not change direction. Whenever the conference takes place, we are confident that the Leader of the Labour Party will be satisfied that the people he represents, those who have been ignored, will be clearly identified and that there will be solutions to their problems. People must have houses in which to live and hospital services when they need them, not only when they can pay for them.

The most important problem — unemployment — will be addressed by the Labour Party as a result of its participation in Government over the next four or five years. We will not be lectured by Members of Fine Gael who have done nothing to alleviate the problems of people represented by the Labour Party over the last 70 years and we will continue to do so without the help of Fine Gael. We propped up Fine Gael in Government for a number of years. We will not prop them up in future and will not be taken for granted by any party. We will do what we can and serve the best interests of the people we represent, those in most need.

In all the events since 25 November, when the election took place, there is a great deal of food for thought, particularly for politicians, but also for the media and the voting public. The Labour Party, its leader in particular, are, in many ways, hoist with their own petard. I admit that Deputy Spring and the Labour Party have done extremely well since 1987; I give them credit for having presented and sold, very successfully, an image of a caring party to which Deputy Fitzgerald has just referred. However, that image is very largely based on rhetoric because, during that period, the Labour Party did not do anything in terms of making decisions at national level. Indeed, up to a couple of weeks ago, it did not show any ambition in regard to having responsibility for doing anything. However, it built a very solid and substantial reputation for itself and has been electorally very successful on the basis of the kind of rhetoric we have heard from the Labour Party since 1987, in particular since 1989, especially from Deputy Spring.

That brings its own difficulties because it shows that in politics over the last six years the media and the public placed a far greater value on rhetoric than on performance. I say, without the slightest degree of rancour or regret, that it seems to be very clear that politicians, the media and the public, attach a greater value to rhetoric without performance than to sense, calmness of analysis or reason. I admit that I paid a certain price in this regard but I have a feeling that, as time goes on, more and more people will come to realise how empty rhetoric is and the value of reason. Rhetoric has its own difficulties because it builds expectations.

I do not know the present state of public expectation regarding what this Government in the making will do or how it will perform. However, if I am any judge those people who still believe they were right to have voted for Fianna Fáil or the Labour Party have a very high level of expectation about what can be done, not just in 1993 but for some years in future. If they find things are not being done as they were led to expect they will be very critical. No amount of complaining or righteous indignation on the part of those involved in that Government, whether it be the Taoiseach, Deputy Reynolds, or Deputy Spring, about criticism and no amount of allegation about them being demonised will be listened to. They will be reaping the whirlwind they have sown by puffing up expectations in the way their rhetoric has done over the past five or six years.

The Labour Party has a double problem out of all this rhetoric and expectations. This can be neatly illustrated by asking the simple question: "what will happen if by the end of this week no deal is done?" What will happen if per adventure — to use the most neutral term I can; as Members know I do not go in for high blown rhetoric and as you know, a Cheann Comhairle, this is supposed to be one of my political faults — there is no agreement by the end of this week and inconceivably if Fianna Fáil were to say "no" to the deal although I cannot see that happening, or the Labour Party special conference, which Deputy B. Fitzgerald spoke about were to say, "no, there will be no deal"? Where does that leave the rhetoric? What then will be the expectations? What will have been the value of this tortuous process we have seen over the past couple of weeks?

Is anybody seriously suggesting, indeed is Deputy Fitzgerald or any other Member on those benches so naive as to say that the Leader of the Labour Party is going to arrive at the special delegate conference next Sunday and tell the delegates that he does not recommend acceptance of the outcome or the conclusion of negotiations? If there are any sweaty palms at that Labour Party conference on Sunday they will be among the leadership of the party, whether elected or appointed, who are worried that not all the delegates will do what the top table recommends them to do. There may be roses, singers, guitars and poetry at the top table but at the end of the day the delegates will be asked to say "yes" to what is put before them.

If, in spite of everything, the delegates say "no" what then will be the position of the Labour Party? Where then will be the shine on this marvellous supposed political astuteness and expertise that the media has told us so much about over the past few weeks? Is it not the case that the Labour Party has firmly and determinedly painted itself into a corner over the past number of weeks from which it has no hope ever of escaping? It is my expectation that the delegates will say "yes" because a great many of them still think that Deputy Spring is God and the ones who think know at this stage they have very little alternative but to accept whatever is agreed. I wonder what they think of that?

I invite Deputies in the Labour Party and the Fianna Fáil Party to reflect on how they will feel on budget day when they find, as inevitably they will, that the 1993 budget is very restrictive, and certainly much more restrictive in terms of public expenditure than either Fianna Fáil or the Labour Party have led people to believe since the beginning of November? What will they say to themselves when they find that the budget is probably less benign or, indeed, more difficult on the taxation side than they would like to see? How will they feel when they find that there is not the kind of elbow-room for doing all the nice things they always talk about doing and which we would all like to see done? How will they feel when they see it is a restrictive budget, after all this talk we have heard since the beginning of the election campaign from the Fianna Fáil and Labour Parties? Their Deputies are going to be asked to go through the division lobbies on budget day next month, to vote for a budget which, if there is any shred of sense to it, will be much more restrictive than what we have been hearing from Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party over the past ten weeks.

Those Members who have spoken in this House, as has Deputy B. Fitzgerald among others, and extolled the virtues of this mysterious programme, which none of us has yet seen, are going to feel fairly sick because there is not going to be a great deal of expansive action in that budget. Some may wonder if it may not have been better for them to stay quiet about their expectations and pretensions to solving the problems of the world when they see what the Minister for Finance brings before this House next month. I ask the Deputies in those two parties, because they in particular are concerned, and the media to reflect on that. We then may get the more reflective debate that Deputies Kemmy and Michael Higgins are looking for. We should get rid of some of this rubbish of rhetoric out of politics here and start talking about reality and not high flown ambition that is not grounded on any prospect of things being implemented in the short term. That has passed for politics here for far too long.

It has not given me any degree of pleasure to watch the discomfort of Labour Party Deputies since we resumed after the election. Let me say that Deputy Spring over that period has looked like somebody who is on a constant diet of unsweetened lemon juice because he does not look a bit happy. I have watched the discomfort plainly visible on the faces of the Deputies on the other side of the Chamber as we have spoken about what is going on behind the closed doors of negotiations which Deputy Spring said a couple of weeks ago he never wanted to see again. We have seen a little bit of the outbreak of humour and temper that this kind of discomfort gives rise to today.

I have some good friends in the Labour Party but I will not embarrass them all by saying who they are. I have great personal regard and even affection for Deputies Michael Higgins and Toddy O'Sullivan. However, I found out today that even they may not have been told the full truth about some of the events they spoke about here today by others in the Labour Party. Deputy Toddy O'Sullivan, for example, spoke of his friendship with the late Mr. Frank Cluskey, a former Deputy — I was a friend of the former Deputy and, indeed, I was a member of the Government he resigned from.

I wonder whether Deputies M. Higgins and T. O'Sullivan have reflected on the fact that Deputy Spring, who is now the Leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, the deputy leader, Deputy Liam Kavanagh, and our MEP, Mr. Barry Desmond, were all members of that same Government and collectively went along with all the decisions taken by that Government, including those to which the late Mr. Cluskey, wrongly in my view, objected.

Have the Deputies been told the full story because we have heard some very partial accounts today of events that took place in that Government? I do not know if they have and to the extent that they are getting only a partial view they have a very unreal view of what happened in that Government and, more importantly, what is more likely to happen in the Government they propose to form with Fianna Fáil.

I listened to Deputy Kemmy complain about carping criticism. He does not like it, especially when his party is at the butt of it. However, what does he do about it? He proceeds to criticise me in the carping fashion he complains about. However, I will not complain about that. I am used to that, it is part of life in this House and in politics. I wonder what Deputy Kemmy will think when we see the proposals in next month's budget. Let us not forget that Deputy Kemmy was one of the people who voted against the budget proposals in January 1982. I would be willing to bet that, when Deputy Kemmy sees the budget proposals next month, he would be delighted if he could swop them for the budget proposals of 1982.

Deputy Kemmy and others had a go at me about the Tallaght strategy. I would bet my bottom dollar that when the Minister for Finance, whoever he may be, whether a Labour or a Fianna Fáil Deputy, comes into this House next month to talk about the background to budgetary policy, that Minister will say the same things about the economic fundamentals, exchange rates, our balance of payments and so on, that we have been hearing from Fianna Fáil since 1989, but he will not say that any credit is due to the Tallaght strategy. The same Labour Deputies who are today sneering at that policy, and who did so in the autumn of 1987, will be sitting on those benches on budget evening taking credit for what has resulted from it and going into the lobbies to vote for what that Government puts before us. None of that would be possible if we had not had at least a modicum of economic common sense in the last six years. If there is nothing else I am remembered for in politics, I will go to my grave a proud man because at least there was one party that had the courage to take such a course when it was badly needed and when the Fianna Fáil Government needed a bit of stiffening in its backbone on economic issues. I will come back to that matter in a moment.

There are many people in this House whose obligations to the general public are huge, who persistently try to ignore the importance of basic economic and financial common sense to the people who are unemployed, who are homeless, who cannot get health services or who have to rely on the State for any services. Unless there is some reasonable degree of financial soundness the State cannot provide any of these services. We need look no further than Central and Eastern Europe to see proof of that. Indeed, there are Deputies on the other side of the House who seem to be more familiar than I am with Central and Eastern Europe, those who went there for rest, recreation and education.

The Deputy is an expert on everything.

When this House last met on a similarly futile occasion on 22 December, I said I was worried by what I heard from the Labour Party about budgetary issues for 1993, but I am even more worried by what I have heard in the last two weeks. Information about what is going on in these discussions about budgetary policy always comes from Labour Party sources. As far as I can see, the Labour Party is the nearest thing to a sieve in Irish politics. As Deputy Noonan said, that seems to be a matter of deliberate policy. I would say to Fianna Fáil in the words of the good old admonition, caveat emptor— let the buyer beware — because it may very well be buying itself a mess of trouble by taking in this party that leaks like a sieve on every important occasion.

The word now being fed to the media is that there are still significant differences between the Labour Party and Fianna Fáil in relation to expenditure items and budgetary targets. Of course, it is the handlers in the shadows who say these things not the appointed negotiators, they are more circumspect. A couple of days ago when Deputy Howlin was interviewed about this matter he made a very disingenuous attempt to say that the difficulty related to what he called differences of emphasis. What he really meant of course, but did not wish to say, is that the Labour Party is once again having difficulty accepting that there is a limit to the amount of money that can be plundered from the pockets of today's and tomorrow's taxpayers to pay for their current political ambitions. It seems that nothing has changed in the Labour Party in the last ten years, since January 1983. Exactly the same problem was there then.

Deputy Fitzgerald seemed to illustrate that point very neatly. He showed the same unwillingness to make choices or to attach priorities to any area of policy. If Deputy Fitzgerald, the Labour Party, and even Fianna Fáil are trying to fool people into the belief that everything can be done at the same time, they are in for a very rude awakening. No matter what our commitment may be to any area, whether it be of social policy or economic policy, that involves current or capital expenditure, you have to accept one simple thing—you cannot do everything at the one time and in any given year you have to assign priorities and make choices.

It is not enough to come in here as Deputy Fitzgerald has done — when he is longer here he might find this out — and say there are potholes in Meath and there are homeless people in Meath and that Deputy Bruton should look at 41 other constituencies. We all know that, but the difficulty is in deciding how much you are going to extract from taxpayers today and in future years to do the things you so rightly want to do for the people who are affected by the potholes, blighted by homelessness or whatever.

If the Labour Party is going into Government with a Fianna Fáil Party that seems to have the same disease, that is totally unwilling to assign priorities or make choices, the Government they set up will be a very bad one. There will be many unhappy backbenchers; they will be unhappy royally on next budget day and they will be unhappy for as long as that Government is in office. I have no confidence in the ability of the present Fianna Fáil leadership to withstand the temptation to go along with that kind of soft option thinking in the Labour Party because, as far as I can see, Fianna Fáil is addicted to soft options.

The negotiators who will be meeting again over the next few days would do well to remember one simple thing — were it not for debt service charges our current Government financial accounts would be very heavily in surplus. That means one thing — the negotiators would do well to remember this — that we are still paying today for current consumption and capital investment of previous years and will continue to do so for some time to come. That, in turn, means that our ability to meet the problems identified by Deputy Fitzgerald and others from the resources we are currently producing is seriously compromised and cruelly limited.

It is that factor more than anything else that lies at the heart of the injustices that are currently being inflicted on the unemployed, the poor, the homeless, the handicapped and a great many other people. As long as we continue to spend tomorrow's income today we will continue inflicting that kind of injustice on all those people and will continue marginalising people even though nobody in this House wants to do so, because we will be depriving ourselves in a very real way of the fruit of our labours that we should be able to use to solve today's problems and to invest in order to foresee tomorrow's problems.

What I have been saying is popularly called monetarism or Thatcherism by people on the other side of the House; when they were in Opposition it was awful to be a monetarist. It amuses me to hear Fianna Fáil Ministers, particularly the Minister for Finance, claim that this was what they always believed in. If we look back on their history we will realise that it was their unwillingness to accept any modicum of financial common sense that visited so much blight and suffering on thousands of people in this country, including the 300,000 unemployed. The choice of soft options in budgetary policy, in a very real sense, does nothing more than perpetuate those injustices.

I suspect that we will see many so-called imaginative policies on job creation and public investment in whatever programme finally emerges from this graceful and leisurely gavotte that is going on between the Labour Party and Fianna Fáil. The very notion of job creation is a myth. Jobs are not created. Jobs are won from markets because you succeed in persuading some other person to pay out money for a product or for a service. That is how jobs are made available. This applies to the public sector also because, if a job is to be made available in the public sector, people have to be persuaded to part with some of their income in the form of taxation in order to pay for that job.

The popular fantasy of job creation, especially in the public sector, is nothing more than a pernicious myth and it diverts attention away from the real sources of expanding employment which are and can only be competitive production and effective marketing. We had examples of job creation in the public sector here in the past. I do not remember exactly what the figure was but in 1977 a Fianna Fáil Government decided to create in the region of 10,000 jobs in the public service. We all paid our taxes at that time to create the jobs and to pay the salaries of those public servants for the next ten years and what happened? In 1987 another Fianna Fáil Government took more taxation from us in order to produce an early retirement plan to buy those same people out of the Civil Service.

All we got for job creation was people temporarily employed over a ten year period in the public service, more taxation and less employment in any of the productive sectors of our economy. We paid higher taxes and no net new jobs were created as a result. That is the myth of job creation and that is how fancy notions of job creation of the kind that we will see in the Government programme actually tell against the people who have real jobs and the people who can provide real jobs for their neighbours.

It is interesting to see the nuances and flavours that are coming out of these discussions. I have read in the papers in the past couple of days suggestions, apparently emanating from Deputy Quinn, that we should not expect too much in terms of immediate job creation, that there may be a continuing need for some period of time for the more cosmetic parts of the system that we have at present. I tried to decode that, and I am used to decoding what Deputy Quinn says. What he actually means is that the negotiators are not coming up with any immediately obvious ideas that will expand total employment here.

Therefore, we are going to continue with the kind of system, for example, that allows FÁS to spend £240 million per year on a huge range of programmes, many of which I am told by people in FÁS could be carried out at a fraction of the cost in our vocational schools. What would be the creative thing to do there? The creative thing to do in that situation — and I will be delighted if I see anything like this in the Government programme — would be to look again at those programmes and decide that the large portions of it that can be carried out more effectively and more cheaply in our vocational schools be taken out of FÁS. The money should be given back to the vocational part of our educational system. If that is done the taxpayer will get better value for money, young people will get better training and we will all save ourselves some money in the process. That seems to me to be common sense because the money we save can be used to solve some of the problems that Deputy Brian Fitzgerald beats his breast about as if the Labour Party was the only one that ever saw a pothole or a hospital ward. That would be something worthwhile and I would be delighted, and astonished, if anything of that kind is contained in this Government programme. I will not say anything about the programme at the moment. I will have another opportunity next week to give my views on that.

There has been some talk about public investment today and in the course of the discussions taking place. Public investment is, of course, one of the household gods of the Labour Party. We heard Deputy Toddy O'Sullivan talk about it again today. I suspect that a great many of the new Labour Deputies, these people sparkling with novelty and oozing creativeness out of every pore, are actually hard-core traditionalists of that same old time religion. They are actually obdurate traditionalists who refuse to see that that particular god has failed them very badly. If one looks back over our economic history, for decades it will be found that the return on what we classify as economic investment as opposed to social investment in the public capital programme has been abysmal. It has not produced extra national income or extra employment on anything like the scale we require.

On both those counts it has fallen woefully below the performance of the private sector which both the Labour Party and the trade unions love to criticise for its alleged lack of performance. If we had had anything like the same return on economic investment through our public capital programme from the public sector as we have had from the private sector over the past five or six decades we would certainly have a greater level of employment here, would have a far better infrastructure and would have wasted less of our own taxpayers' money and foreign borrowed money.

During the course of the election campaign Deputy Spring seemed to perceive some problem with public investment. For those who do not believe me I would suggest, although I know the Labour Party do not like to be lectured by anybody in this House, that they read an article by Finola Kennedy in the Sunday Independent of 3 January 1993. There is one lesson that Ms Kennedy did not draw from the detail in the article. She set out in a table the proportion of GNP that has gone on capital investment in recent years. In another table, where apparently the author did not see the connection, she referred to the change in employment over those periods. A couple of years after the periods when we had the highest proportion of GNP invested through our public capital programmes we find that we had the worst results in terms of employment and one would expect it to be the other way around.

That is a bit simple, and the Deputy knows that.

One would expect to find that after years of high public investment there would be a good response in terms of employment but the record is totally different. During the course of the election campaign Deputy Spring seemed to discern that he had some difficulty in that regard. He said at one stage, I cannot remember his exact words, that he saw nothing wrong with public investment in areas where it would produce a satisfactory return. He carefully did not define what he would regard as "a satisfactory return".

The Fianna Fáil Party for all its modern jargon I believe suffers from the same intellectual blindness on this issue. It is also a devotee of these famous household gods of public investment. Many Members of this House will remember the absolute apoplexy of indignation that we saw from the then Fianna Fáil spokesman on Finance in 1984 when I proposed that we should introduce guidelines for the assessment of public capital expenditure programmes. Many will remember the savage opposition of the Fianna Fáil Party to our programme for improving the performance of our commercial semi-State companies and the Labour Party who were in Government with us at the time, between 1982 and 1987 supported our programme. That programme produced very significant and useful results. The very idea of applying to investment in the public sector anything like the criteria that we applied in the private sector was enough to send Fianna Fáil into orbit.

I would bet my bottom dollar that sometime over the next year or so Fianna Fáil will come before us again and will pretend that it has in place systems for measuring the possible return on public investment. If that happens I will be delighted, especially if Fianna Fáil mean it.

I will be astonished also, because it does not fit with the old fashioned religion of the Labour Party and Fianna Fáil about public investment, to expect that the taxpayer should be given some kind of assurance that he or she will get the same value for money out of public investment that we rightly look for from private investment. I am not talking about housing, schools or hospitals but without economic investment, without that kind of approach to public investment on the part of these two parties who are now about to set up in Government, we would be wasting taxpayers' and EC money.

It was never more important to have economic investment than it is today when we have 300,000 people unemployed and are about to embark, apparently, on a seven year programme to spend £8 billion of European Community money added to whatever capital moneys we raise from our own resources. It seems that the people who are in charge of making decisions about all that should be almost demonically concerned with getting value for money, because value for money means a chance for some of those 300,000 people to get a job when we are spending these billions. That programme should be guided by a very hard headed determination to build a case for sustainable extra employment, but I fear it will be guided by an outdated doctrinaire prejudice that is shared by the Labour Party and Fianna Fáil.

While this rather passionless dalliance has been going on between Fianna Fáil and Labour the rest of the world has not stood still. We still have uncertainty in currency markets. Irish exporters are in all kinds of difficulty and all kinds of businesses in the Border areas are in serious difficulty. It is true that some short-term palliative measures have been put in place but they will not solve the problem; they cannot and will not solve the problem. It is blatantly obvious that we need a realignment of currencies in the Exchange Rate Mechanism and that individual devaluations can be no substitute. That means a number of simple but difficult political things. It means, for example, that the German Government must be told it is time to stop making the rest of the world carry the burden of German reunification which we all support, that it is time for the German people to start bearing a bigger part of the cost. It is time to tell the French Government that while a realignment at this stage might be politically embarrassing in the run up to March elections, failure to realign could be even worse, and the evidence is there today. If we do not have a realignment, the French franc will be the next target, and there are some suggestions of that today. That would produce even more electoral embarrassment next March than a realignment today.

Our Government should be busily engaged in putting together at EC level the political forces and alliances that will secure that common sense result, but of course, our present Government cannot do that. It is a lame duck, outgoing caretaker Government trying to decide how much of its barely held economic principles it should ditch in order to become the weakened partner in a new coalition.

Across the Irish Sea the British authorities are setting in place procedures for the scrutiny of the next phase of a major expansion of activity in Sellafield. I hear the Irish Government is thinking of making mild noises about objecting to that but what it should do before the deadline expires next Monday, is make it unambiguously clear that we want a full public inquiry which will allow all our concerns to be put fully before the competent British authorities. In addition, we need more concerted action at European Community level to prevent any member state — whether the UK or any other state — visiting the consequences of unreflected growth in these areas on its neighbours. Again, our present Government has not got the moral or political authority to do that nor will it have before next Monday — the expiry date for making objections under procedures currently in force in the UK.

There is a series of other problems waiting to be dealt with and I do not think they are being addressed in these negotiations. Over the last few weeks Members will have been receiving letters from the bakery and confectionery industry which is being severely damaged by the differences in VAT rates on both sides of the Border. Under the 1992 Finance Act, for example, people involved in riding establishments are subject to four different rates of VAT and for some activities, theoretically they can be subject to three different rates of VAT for services delivered to the same customer. We have a VAT law which places hotels that let rooms for functions in a very anomalous position. Is anybody addressing those problems? Is there any plan to address those problems in the budget we will have next month or in a Finance Bill we will have later?

I note with gladness that the lunatic proposal for putting a third banking force in place now seems to be disappearing. The proposal was to create in effect, a political bank owned by the State, like the old Soviet Gosbank. That proposal was yet another example of the devotion of Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party to the old redundant family gods of public ownership. As far as I know the Gosbank in Russia is now very sensibly being privatised. I am delighted to see that the Fianna Fáil-Labour version of the Gosbank will be choked before it is born.

Is there any space for consideration of these and a host of other pressing problems in the discussions that are going on, or are the negotiators sitting around congratulating each other on the quality of the rhetoric each is producing with regard to the Government programme? The final nonsense comes from the way the media are beginning to write so wisely, so percipiently and so perspicaciously about the fact that there are some social reforms that can be carried out without involving a lot of money. What a blinding flash of insight. What an amazing discovery. I am astonished that our hardbitten political reporters can fall for that old nonsense. We have always known that there are great many social reforms that can be carried out without costing a great deal of money but, hey presto, when we have two parties in discussion having difficulty agreeing a budget, all of a sudden, by accident, the media discover that there are some social reforms that can be implemented without costing a lot of money.

What is happening? I will tell the House what is happening. The spin doctors in the Labour Party — I do not know whether Fianna Fáil have a new spin doctor yet after the departure of the last man who made such a bags of the GPA flotation — found that they had to have something nice to say coming up to the end of last week and they make this great discovery that some social reforms do not have to cost money. They will mention a date for a divorce referendum; we will have legislation to deal with the fallout from the X case and I am sure there will be five or six other things in the programme. When the people see the programme they should not be impressed by it. They should besiege the party head-quarters of Fianna Fáil and Labour asking why these things were not done 20 years ago, when the biggest obstacles to doing them were people in Fianna Fáil and, I regret to say, the odd one in the Labour Party as well.

And a few in Fine Gael.

Yes, and a few in Fine Gael. Let us not have it now that, because this promiscuous apostasy is taking place between the Labour Party and Fianna Fáil, social progress will suddenly be possible. I would like to have a firm date in mind so that we all know when this nonsense will finally come to an end.

I have listened to the contributions in this Chamber and wish to express my huge disappointment, which I am sure will be shared by most members of the general public who are aware of the Fine Gael contributions. It is sad. If Deputies opposite read the Official Report of today's proceedings I am sure they will be saddened by their contributions. Somebody referred to children who did not get Christmas presents. That is an apt way to describe the contributions from the Fine Gael benches.

We have heard many charges by various speakers. I will not try to respond.

The Deputy may be told to go away, as he was told to remove himself during the election campaign.

Nobody asked me to remove myself. It might have happened in the Deputy's neck of the woods but it did not happen to me. The various charges made were pure and utter rubbish and the people who made them were aware of it. That is all I will say in relation to most of them.

The Deputy should trail his coat a bit. We would like to know what he thinks.

I did not come in here with a prepared speech like the previous spekers. Deputy Dukes was the only one who ad libbed, while also referring to a prepared script.

The Deputy has much to learn about the people on this side of the House.

I do not have a prepared speech but I have fire in my belly from listening to the pitiful contributions of Fine Gael. That is what prompted me to come into the House but I do not have a prepared speech.

Say something.

It is sickening to have to listen to the lecturing from the opposite benches. Denis the Menace or Basher might have made better contributions. It has been said that the Taoiseach and Fianna Fáil did not receive a mandate.

Their future partner said that.

It was the Deputy's colleagues.

It was a quote from Deputy Spring.

Deputies quoted what they regarded as relevant extracts from speeches and used them incorrectly. Fine Gael speakers made that charge this afternoon. We cannot turn back history. An election was held on 25 November last. The charge was made today that one party campaigned for single party government. The party of which I am a member looked for a strong mandate and we got what we asked for, the strongest mandate given by the electorate.

The Deputy's party did their usual trick of starting high and finishing low.

If Deputies opposite do not like the facts, I am sorry. They should not try to twist them. It was claimed that we did not get a mandate. What has the Taoiseach got?

Deputy Spring.

What did Deputy Bruton get with his 20 per cent of the vote? Is that a mandate? Some of his colleagues claimed they had achieved a rainbow mandate but in reality they have not a mandate. We, as a political force, have got what we asked for — a strong mandate. Ours in the strongest mandate. That is a fact.

Reference was also made to a tribunal in another place.

The Deputy's delicacy does him great credit.

In due course we will have the report of the chairman of that tribunal. It was said that Fianna Fáil claimed privilege at the tribunal. We did not and it is important that this should be said.

Deputy Dukes claimed that he would not indulge in rhetoric. He began his speech at 5.50 p.m. and engaged in much rhetoric during the 45 minutes he spoke. He referred to the problem in relation to servicing the national debt. This is a huge problem which I have spoken about in this House in the past, when I indicated that the cost of servicing the national debt is a ball and chain on the development and growth of the economy. Most people accept this. I will refer briefly later to how those debts were incurred.

If the Deputy's party had had anything to do with it in the years 1982 to 1987 the debt would have been much bigger. They opposed every measure I took to reduce the borrowing requirement.

Deputy Dukes had a very good hearing. Let us have the same respect for the Deputy in possession.

There are very serious national matters which urgently require to be addressed and warrant special attention. The Taoiseach indicated that during the past two months effective Government has continued and progress has been made on a number of major issues. He mentioned the settling of the Structural and Cohesion Funds. When the figure was first mentioned the Opposition suggested that the Taoiseach, and others, were misleading the general public in order to secure the ratification of the Maastricht Treaty. The Taoiseach, and his team, returned from Edinburgh with a package which surpassed expectations and are due great credit.

A matter of national importance that warrants special attention is the totally unacceptable level of unemployment. Other serious issues needing attention are the international currency crisis which is having a serious effect on mortgages, bank loans and the development of business; the overall state of the public finances; the need for State investment, in particular in Aer Lingus, the DART and other areas of public transport; social welfare benefits, the need to address crime and vandalism; the need for social legislation; and the situation in Northern Ireland. They are just some of the serious issues facing this country. It is essential that major new initiatives be undertaken to address these and other issues of national concern and to meet the other challenges that will have to be met during the nineties.

I welcome the fact that two responsible parties have come together to discuss how these matters can best be addressed. If a programme for Government is agreed I am confident that it will be fresh, innovative and positive, it will also be a creative document based on economic and budgetary strategies agreed in a spirit of partnership by the two parties.

I have listened to the contributions made this afternoon by speakers on the opposite benches but have heard nothing but rhetoric and slagging. Can we, in a cool and calm manner, look at the facts as they relate to the way the economy has been managed in the past decade? Earlier I seemed to be a thorn in the side of Deputy Alan Dukes when I referred to debt service charges. Can we look briefly at the way the economy has been managed in the last ten years? Can the Deputy stand up and say honestly that the first half of that decade was the better as it related to the development of the economy?

It was absolutely necessary. Can the Deputy tell me what has happened to the total national debt since the middle of 1987? Has it gone up or down?

It has not doubled.

What has happened to it? It has gone up each year.

I did not interrupt the Deputy, but what I do know is that he held the portfolio of Minister for Finance for part of that period and I am asking him to look at this matter in a calm, cool and reflective manner.

The national debt has increased, I tell the Deputy calmly.

We all make mistakes. Let us all accept——

The only criticism the Deputy's colleagues had was that it was not increasing fast enough. They wanted to spend more money all the time.

I did not interrupt any speaker and I asked a simple question in a cool and calm manner. I am simply saying that successive Governments have made mistakes.

They were not mistakes.

Fianna Fáil has made mistakes in the past. What I am doing now is taking the last decade in isolation and looking at the way our economy has been developed. I am simply asking the Deputy to look at the facts and the way the economy has been managed during that period. In 1982——

In 1981 inflation was 21 per cent; in 1987 it was 3 per cent.

Deputy Callely without interruption, please.

I seem to be upsetting Deputy Dukes.

Not one bit.

If the Deputy in possession addressed his remarks through the Chair rather than directly to a Member of the Opposition it might help to avoid the interruptions we have been having.

Between 1982 and 1987 the economy was totally mismanaged. In relation to debt service charges which have been mentioned in the House, the national debt was doubled. We had huge inflation and high taxation rates——

It came down from 21 per cent to 3 per cent.

——while many people emigrated, our GNP was off the rails, etc. I do not think it is my duty this afternoon to outline all the facts as they are in the record books.

And the Deputy knows them.

Let us now look at the period 1987-92 when our economy was totally transformed. This transformation started the day Fianna Fáil took office in 1987. Fianna Fáil has handled our national affairs better in a number of crucial areas.

Pray tell, what happened to emigration and unemployment?

To be fair to the man for whom I seem to be a thorn in the side——

The Deputy does not even rate as a thorn.

He is going to praise the Deputy.

——by implementing his Tallaght strategy he contributed to that transformation. Unfortunately for him he did not receive any recognition from his party.

What happened to unemployment and emigration during that period? The Deputy does not want to know.

It is important, given that we are talking about the development of our economy and the way it should be managed during the next few years and about which Government will be in office, that we reflect on what happened in the past. That is the reason I have taken the last decade and divided it into two five year periods. The record speaks for itself and I do not have to elaborate any further.

Fianna Fáil is the biggest political party and has always given clear expression to the deeply held beliefs and aspirations of a broad spectrum of the people. We have constantly provided decisive and positive leadership and supported and assisted the people to reach new heights of achievement and we will continue to do this in the years ahead. We believe the people have the capacity to succeed no matter what the challenge and we have a clear vision of what we want for the present and future generations. I am happy that we have, in a responsible fashion, entered into discussions and negotiations to continue to achieve the aims of our great national movement.

That was a ringing and declaratory defence of Fianna Fáil's traditional position. Like Deputy Callely, I did not come into the House with many well researched pages on Deputy Spring's recent contributions. Nonetheless I wanted to make some response to Deputy Noonan's comments on the currency crisis and on the Labour Party/Democratic Left agreement on a platform for Government.

A great deal of nonsense has been spoken here this afternoon, and written, about the configuration of Government for which the people voted. I do not think it possible to draw the conclusions that have been drawn, either here or by commentators in the media, that it was obvious that the people voted for this or that Government configuration. Certainly, one can draw certain conclusions but how one can seriously say that this or that type of coalition Government should obviously follow on the decision of the people escapes me. I will concede to Deputy Dukes that certainly one can say that the Irish people did not vote for the Labour Party putting Fianna Fáil back into office. However, that presumes that there is an alternative or, presumably, from the point of view of the Labour Party, that there is a better alternative.

I listened very carefully for most of this afternoon to the speeches from the Fine Gael benches. At the end of them all, apart from this detailed nit-picking criticism of the Labour Party, I have not been able to discern what it is that is on offer as an alternative from Fine Gael.

Deputy Dukes treated us to a long lecture on the merits of monetarism and reintroducing strict controls on public spending. I should like to make a couple of points on that later because I am tired of having my position and that of my party on that distorted. I am sure Deputy Michael D. Higgins will deal with the Labour Party's view on it.

I did not say a word about Deputy Rabbitte.

The Deputy did, by implication. In referring to the contract between Labour and Democratic Left——

I reserve my most cordial remarks for the Labour Party.

In dealing with the contract between Labour and Democratic Left one could only take the remarks as implicit whereas Deputy Noonan was very explicit.

I hope that what we are not seeing in this Parliament is Fine Gael being dragged to the right by the Progressive Democrats and their obsession with the Progressive Democrats looking over their shoulders. I read a number of articles in last Sunday's papers with great interest. Indeed, Deputy Dukes was very selective in the economists he drew to our attention. I read his own dissertation on Nigel Lawson's book with great interest. I have great respect for Deputy Dukes' contributions in this House but, even there, he could not refrain from lecturing the rest of us on his views on monetarism.

It was a heaven-sent opportunity; what else could I do?

The extraordinary thing is that he presumes that nobody can understand those concepts other than himself. He went on to praise the Lawson/Thatcher experiment in more florid terms than I have seen on the part of any commentator who has written on the same book in the British media. It seems to me that, whatever else is evident that has failed — Deputy Dukes referred again this evening to the position in Eastern Europe — Thatcher and Lawson failed and that the shambles in which the British economy is left is palpable evidence of that, if any such evidence were needed.

The Deputy should read the book.

I propose to. In Deputy Shatter's phrase, "it all could have been so different". I wonder whether it all could have been so different. I have not heard anything this afternoon that suggests we are dealing with anything other than a situation in which, "hell hath no fury like a suitor scorned" because certainly that has been the flavour of the contributions from the Fine Gael benches. How could it all have been so different? It seems to me, if that is the case, that Fine Gael certainly mismanaged the position in which it found itself, that by the time it had awoken to the results of the general election and stopped reflecting introvertedly on the implications of those results, it was too late for it to seize the day. Consequently, it now finds itself in the position of being side-lined and must confine itself to this criticism in anticipation of a programme for Government that has not yet emerged.

I repeat my concern about what will be contained in that programme for Government, but I also repeat my willingness to stay my hand until I have a look at it and see what it contains before I presume to criticise it. That was the real deficiency in the litany of speeches we have heard this afternoon from the Fine Gael benches, that they really have not put forward an alternative.

The Deputy's party has been successful in getting them to surrender anyway.

Not for the first time. Deputy Noonan did treat us to a worthwhile analysis of the challenges posed by the present currency position and which will confront the new Government. However, he stopped short of saying what Fine Gael is recommending that would be different from the stance taken by the acting Government and the previous Fianna Fáil Government to date. Nonetheless, I welcome the opportunity to have these questions ventilated in the House because I have spoken before about what seemed to me to be the unseemly consensus that has reigned on such an important issue.

The fact is that sections of Irish business are hurting. We cannot pretend that that is not happening. One economist, writing in last Sunday's newspapers to whom Deputy Dukes did not refer, listed the alternatives open to us as: first, do nothing and hope the situation will right itself; second, press for acceleration of the European Monetary Union process with tighter bands; third, let the IR£ float freely or, fourth, link with another currency. It is clear that the prospect of linking with another currency is not one that is open to us. If what is more likely to be meant there is that we should renew the link with sterling, I think everybody in this House is agreed that that is not a viable option for us at this stage.

In the debate on the Bill put through the House before Christmas to end exchange controls I referred to the analysis that all of this is the fault of Germany, that Germany had not provided prudently for the costs of unification and so on. That is part of the analysis only. The other part is that the British economy, post-Thatcher, is in decline and will be in decline for as far as one can see into the future. Certainly, there are no kudos for this country in hitching our economic hopes onto the wagon of the British economy. Therefore, that particular option of renewing our link with sterling is not one that is viable or that we could consider.

The second suggestion, that the IR£ should float freely presumably was not made seriously; in terms of our relative strength and size in all of this it is not a real prospect.

I should like now to refer to a paragraph from a paper which the chief executive of Greencore, Mr. Gerry Murphy, delivered at the end of November; I do not have the precise date. He said:

For indigenous industries including food, clothing and of course tourism, the new currency climate is the most profound change since Ireland joined the EEC 20 years ago. The food industry has to contend with the additional shock of losing MCAs in a few weeks. If national macro-economics require maintenance of the D-mark line, we simply have to come to terms with the implications for trade with the UK. We have no choice but to go back to the drawing board.

I submit that neither a statement from a chief executive of a leading food company such as Greencore nor the enormity of the currency crisis for sections of our industry can be glossed over because I do not think it is the EMS itself that is under speculative attack. I think the entire system is at risk and for various reasons it has lost credibility, and that it is in all our interests that it be saved. It seems that the argument in its favour has two dimensions: one is the role it plays in encouraging and facilitating intra-European and intra-Community trade and the development of the Single Market, the other is the central role of the system in fast-tracking to full economic and monetary union which must remain a first priority of the Community.

In that respect it is interesting that in The Observer of 3 January 1993 an economist, a teacher at Trinity College, Cambridge, dealt with the question of the pace of monetary union. His entire thesis is that the schedule set out for monetary union has been so long that it puts the entire enterprise at risk. That appears to be what we are experiencing at present. The article deals with the short term and essentially narrow interests of bankers if you allow bankers to continue to call the shots. I quote from the article by John Eatwell in The Observer of 3 January 1993 as follows:

But the committee of central bankers which devised the policy for monetary union managed to create a procedure which virtually guarantees the failure of the entire enterprise.

Their strategy for transition to a single currency is defined in purely monetary terms — convergence of rates of inflation, low government deficits, small national debts — while ignoring the conditions of the real economies. The separation of money and the real economy is also the rationale behind the case for an independent central bank. If monetary and fiscal policies were not interdependent, and the economy were smoothly selfadjusting, there might be a case for independence. But monetary and fiscal policies are very closely intertwined.

That is a key comment which is misunderstood by many commentators. Unless we can manage to assert some element of political control over the financial markets we will react constantly from a position of weakness to the present challenge. Of course, that cannot be done in an Irish context alone; it will have to be done in a European context. I am not aware of any initiatives taken by this Government or the Minister for Finance to cause such measures to be examined at European level or to enable us to assert the necessary political control over the financial markets. That has to be a priority of the new Government. According to the article in The Observer of 3 January 1993 the first option is to do nothing and hope the situation will right itself. That seems to be the option on which we are relying.

It is all very well for Deputy Dukes to go one step further than his colleague Deputy Noonan and suggest we go for a negotiated realignment. I happen to agree with that. If we do not manage to bring about negotiated realignment our situation is likely to be worse and we may inevitably and inexorably face a unilateral situation. I do not think that is in the interests of this country or of workers in the vulnerable traded sector into Britain. If we are to have a negotiated realignment there is no point sitting back and saying the situation is changing in Germany — that may happen — and then say nothing will happen until after the French election. There would be further erosion of economic sovereignty if France were to go along with that in advance of the general election. Therefore, that is not likely to happen. I sincerely hope that is wrong because we are hurting so severely that we cannot await the outcome of a general election in France. At a time when important and valuable sectors of our industry are at risk and when the building societies are beginning to impose huge increases in interest rates on people's mortgages and where jobs are threatened, we cannot wait for the outcome of the general election in France. That is why the new Government must have as an economic priority carving out the circumstances for a negotiated realignment at European level.

In conclusion, may I make a brief reference to the figures the Minister trotted out frequently in defence of his present policy? I do not argue that the policy of last November was not correct. What I am saying is that it is not a static situation and as it progresses, the position that may have obtained last November no longer exists. It is not a situation of all pluses and no minuses. The Minister trots out his favourite bench mark calculation that a devaluation, for example, of 10 per cent would add £150 million to the cost of debt servicing. That seems a lot of money in the present budgetary situation but what is the cost of the alternative? Already we have put £50 million of tax-payers' money into the Market Development Fund — that is now expiring — and the employers' confederation are saying they need another £200 million quickly or they will lose a further 6,000 jobs in the next six weeks. There is a cost there. There is also, obviously, a social welfare cost if workers are thrown onto the dole queue that must also be put into the equation. You cannot simply say that if we were to go down that road it would cost us £150 million, as if the alternative does not have a cost attached to it as well and, in my submission, perhaps a greater cost. The Minister says that a similar devaluation would lead to a 4 per cent deterioration in the debt-GNP ratio. Again I ask, on what assumption for growth? That conclusion of a 4 per cent deterioration in the debt-GNP ratio has to be based on some assumption for growth. I would ask a further question: what will the current stance do to growth in 1993? That is the other element that is not being taken into the equation. There is an assumption in our existing policy for growth and for the implications it will have in terms of economic performance next year.

I am not arguing for a unilateral devaluation or anything like that but for an end to this see no evil, hear no evil policy we are engaged in at present. I suggest we cannot go on indefinitely with the damage that the unprecedented high interest rates are doing to the economy, the impact on the domestic home-owner through mortgage rates, the threat especially to those sections trading into the British economy and the threat to additional workers being thrown out of employment.

Obviously, there will be pain for French and German industry also if they are to adjust to an exchange rate induced reduction in price competitiveness in much of the European marketplace. However, there is a price for Ireland whatever the authorities do: sticking with the Deutsche Mark has already cost industry and may, if maintained, push the economy into a slump. Realignment imposes a cost on the Exchequer, the National Treasury Management Agency and budgetary policy and puts a premium on interest rates vis-à-vis those of Germany and France. The cost to the Exchequer and taxpayers of realignment has to be weighed against the significant cost to both of the hard currency approach. The £50 million subsidy fund to small firms is not peanuts. The prospective rise in mortgage interest relief, now becoming a reality, will also be very costly. The case for budgetary discipline is made whatever happens on the exchange rate. The interest rate premium need not be long-lasting and it is not as if we do not already have one. By way of a serious contribution to what has been sometimes a trivial and vitriolic debate, largely because Fine Gael sees the prospect of Government being snatched from it, I should like to put forward the confronting of this currency crisis as being a major priority for the new Government.

Deputy Noonan said he would agree with 90 per cent of the programme agreed between the Labour Party and Democratic Left but said the defect was that it was not underpinned by any economic strategy. That is not the case. I do not wish to go into this matter in great detail now but, for example, proposals like the total revamp of industrial strategy, the creation of a separate Department of Enterprise and Employment, the development of a third force in banking, the proposal for a community enterprise programme, the proposals for radical tax reform and specific proposals such as the revision of the business expansion scheme and so forth, can hardly pass as not being economic measures.

Deputy Dukes chose to ridicule the proposal for a developmental bank and made his now familiar references to the Soviet Gosbank as if this was what was being contemplated. Clearly, Deputy Dukes has never heard of the significance of the State bank in, for example, the French economy which gives the French Government some power and instrument in terms of influencing interest rates which we do not have. Deputy Dukes chooses not to see that. I should like to put on the record our proposal on a developmental bank which is:

We will pursue the development of a State banking system, based on a combination of ACC, ICC, the Trustee Savings Banks, and An Post, possibly on a joint venture basis with a major European bank.

Such a bank can initially draw support from the thousands of transactions, and hundreds of millions of pounds, involved in State business, ranging from Social Welfare payments to investments by semi-State companies.

It would of course have to operate according to the highest standards of prudential banking policy, but it would also take a much greater account of the economy in which it operated.

A State banking system will provide a valuable third source of savings, credit, and investment. By ensuring more effective competition, it will transform the banking and financial services sectors generally. It is in the banks' own interests to become more fully involved in the economy in which their depositors and their borrowers, and indeed their share-holders live.

The proposed privatisation of the existing State banks, ICC and ACC, will be cancelled.

If Deputy Dukes chooses to ridicule that proposal he should devote a little more attention to it than he did in his two assaults on it so far which have been glib and superficial.

As a member of the Oireachtas Committee on Employment, in which Deputy Dukes' party did not participate, time and again the case was brought to us by business people, and representatives of business, that one of the major defects in industrial policy in this economy is access to capital, access to seed capital and access to equity capital. We were told that the commercial banks will make decisions in the interests of their share-holders and where those interests are not deemed by them to be compatible with the interests of the domestic economy, then tough luck. We have had a myriad of examples of business persons coming before that committee and pointing out the difficulty of getting access to capital and the need for a developmental bank, not in the sense of lending money for every daft notion which comes their way but to make an investment decision, a statement of confidence in the future of this economy. We were told there should be such an alternative source available for the development of enterprise here.

I shall be very brief. We are coming towards the end of the debate and I am very pleased to speak immediately after Deputy Rabbitte who made a thoughtful contribution. It was different from the contributions we have heard all afternoon, which were characterised by a certain amount of bad temper and often by sheer viciousness in terms of their character assassinations on the leader of the Labour Party, members of the Labour Party and others. He was being thoughtful when he referred, for example, to the importance of us bearing in mind the external environment in which the new Government will be formed, particularly in relation to the currency crisis and the other economic problems, paramount of which is the problem of unemployment, and the need for us to be flexible in our approach to the many options which are available but all of which have downside costs. I would like to think that the new Government, when formed, will be able to begin with this teasing out our options. I will return to this point in a moment.

As I listened to the last contribution in which the case was made for a third banking force, flexibility in dealing with the currency crisis and the need for an interventionist strategy in relation to job creation to impact on our unemployment problem, I contrasted it with the opening speech by Deputy Bruton. I listened with great care to what Deputy Bruton said. He said we must not return to the sixties or the seventies, avoided the eighties altogether and spoke about the nineties. He followed this by making what is now the usual allegations about the State sector and the public service. It is rather cheap to attack the public service and it is profoundly ideological to see something inherently wrong with State investment or the semi-State sector.

He went on to quote, and I believe misconstrue, an article written by my colleague, Professor Michael Laver of the Department of Political Science and Sociology, on the new shape of Irish politics in terms of its urban-rural pattern. Deputy Bruton found something inherently wrong with building local authority houses which he saw as providing a sort of class ghetto. This is poor and cold comfort to those who are homeless and on housing waiting lists. Sadly, it was a tired old rerun of an ideological antipathy to the semi-State sector and a notion that somehow all forms of public expenditure were inherently bad.

I listened to this speech with great care and remembered, as other Deputies have, the times we met here since the election. I recall when Deputy Bruton was proposed as Taoiseach by Deputy Barry. Deputy Barry referred to the international tradition from which Deputy Bruton as Taoiseach would draw, the powerful and strong tradition of Christian democracy. As Christian democracy is a force in international politics and in foreign policy, I am afraid the economics of Fine Gael also seem to have stopped in the thirties.

That is not true.

Unfortunately, we had more of that from Deputy Dukes. He has taken upon himself the role of suggesting that practically no one in this House, particularly of the Left, is literate in economics, a point well covered by Deputy Rabbitte in his contribution.

Let us deal with some realities. If one looks in an elementary way at the history of Irish economic performance, where are the great achievements? If one looks at what has been built up in the thousands of jobs that have been created by semi-State bodies in producing new products and technologies and if one was not to be confined by history but was as I have often been invited by the larger parties to look at the marketplace, what companies can afford the research and the budgets for marketing in terms of testing new products and developing new technologies other than those in the semi-State sector? Again, one found, rather sadly, that because they are State or semi-State bodies, they must automatically be excluded from their development potential. It is interesting that the Fine Gael Party who lost its nerve after the election is now falling back on the old bits of furniture that it left in the attic, old economics, anti-State ideology, accusing people who are in favour of local authority housing of fomenting class division, and so on. That is a particularly sad notion.

Let us be straightforward about the recipe which Deputy Dukes suggested. He stated that there was no such thing as job creation, that jobs are won from markets. That view has been rejected by the incoming President of the United States, Bill Clinton; trickle-down economics have been abandoned in the United States. The most recent appointment to the Treasury Advisory Team by Norman Lamont, Professor Wynne Godley of Cambridge, is advising the exact opposite to what Mrs. Thatcher and Ronald Reagan advised as recipes for the British economy. As previous speakers have pointed out, the British economy is a wasteland. Yet, what Deputy Dukes had to say, in some kind of version of hard-hearted Hannah is that we must keep on suffering and as we continue to suffer, inevitably, the economy will improve and ultimately jobs will be created. Whatever Government is formed will have to deal simultaneously with an economic and fiscal crisis on the one hand, and a social crisis on the other. It is interesting to note that the electorate saw the scale of the social crisis, measured by unemployment and by the crisis in the caring services, as of even greater proportion than the scale of the fiscal and monetary crisis and wanted us to restore to economics the traditional title of political economy.

The electorate wanted a change in direction. I am amazed at the manner in which the Fine Gael Party and the Progressive Democrats can stand up and, de Valera like, look into their hearts and tell us what were the intentions of the Irish people when they voted in the election. Deputy Shatter in a fit of spleen suggested that the Labour Party in a Leninist manner, wanted to disqualify the people, and that the people did not know what they were doing. Both Deputy Shatter and Deputy Dukes believe that Deputy Spring is an image creation of the media. Fine Gael should know what an image creation is. The reality is that Deputy Spring's party, of which I am proud to be a member, doubled its membership in this House; the Fine Gael Party lost seats, the Fianna Fáil Party lost seats and the Progressive Democrats gained a few seats. These are realities. Fine Gael can accuse us in as bad tempered a way as it likes and of disqualifying the media, the public and everyone else and it can prance up and down and stamp its feet and say as often as it likes that it wants its leader to be Taoiseach, but, unfortunately, we are living in a political system. I am tired of being told in this House that we are all supposed to be very European. There has been no extraodinary character to what has taken place in recent times. The same thing happens after most general elections in the European political systems with which I am familiar.

What happened was that bluntly, in one opinion poll after another, the public said they were deeply concerned about unemployment and wanted a change in economic direction. They also wanted significant changes in social policy and they saw that by voting for the Labour Party they could achieve that. Now after the election we must face the reality that both of the major parties have lost seats, the smaller parties have gained a few seats and we have doubled our representation in this House. We have a responsibility that is politically moral to negotiate on the basis of our programme.

Now there is a new type of ethic creeping into this House from those who have been beating their breasts all afternoon about their concern for Deputy Stagg, me and so on. Some Deputies quote folk songs and Deputy Shatter used a series of mixed metaphors drawn from comedy and tragedy. Bluntly, the fact is that the people had a good look at the Fine Gael Party and gave them fewer seats. After the election Fine Gael said it wanted to form a Government and have a Fine Gael Taoiseach. Not only that, it also believed that, although we doubled our representation, we had no right to talk to those who are closest to us on policy.

There was a kind of seedy innuendo that it is acceptable for electors to send Democratic Left Deputies into this House, and they are all decent people but we must not talk to them. I would like people who read the record to compare, for example, the speech of Deputy Rabbitte on the financial crisis we are facing in the ERM with the economic speeches that were made by members of the Labour Party. People can then make their own judgment as to whom it is appropriate to talk in terms of being responsible in relation to the economy.

Deputy Dukes spent a great deal of time warning Fianna Fáil about the dangerous group with which it is going to shortly contaminate itself as far as he is concerned, and having earlier barracked my colleague, Deputy O'Sullivan, made reference to the Broadcasting Bill. I want to put on record that I was at most of the meetings with Deputy O'Sullivan where we met the former Minister, Deputy Mitchell, and the former Minister of State, Deputy Nealon. We agreed the heads of a Bill with Deputy Nealon only to find that when he went back to the Minister it was thrown back in his face by Deputy Jim Mitchell. Those are the realities.

It is unworthy of Deputy Dukes to say that Deputy O'Sullivan was "in the pocket of the RTE group of trade unions". Deputy O'Sullivan was defending a paragraph that was explicit in the 14 point programme that broadcasting would be developed in co-operation with RTE and community interests. The major party in the Government at the time, Fine Gael, were welching on that for reasons I will not weary the House with this afternoon, but Members should not find it difficult to speculate on what they were. At those meetings what we were resisting was commercial radio and we were defending community radio. There were points in our case for community radio that were different from the proposals of the RTE trade union group. We saw the great contribution that had been made by public service broadcasting and were not interested in wrecking it. That is what we said when we were debating the Broadcasting Bill.

Now that we have influence we can seek to make such progress as we can in relation to an adequate communications policy. However, this idea is a very interesting one because I think I know why the people, many of them, are declining to vote for, with greatest respect, the traditional alternative party who have conferred respect upon themselves. That is, simply, they do not like sanctimonious lecturing; they do not like people saying that they are the natural alternative for Government, that Labour do not really understand economics, that Labour are hung up about jobs, about housing, health and so on. What is true in this House is that those of us who are in the Labour Party and in the parties of the Left are psychologically closer to the people who are affected by waiting lists. We do not apologise for that. What is also very true is that many of us have spent a very great deal of time in understanding the whole nature of economics, and some of us understand much better than conservatives in different parts of this House what a wasteland Britain is as a result of Thatcherism and that is why we try to save Ireland from Thatcherism in terms of economic policy. Just as a footnote Deputy Dukes might write down somewhere that Thatcherism is not in fact monetarism because it did not control the monetary supply. If I was a different kind of Deputy now, who is no longer in this House, I could go on for five weeks on that one.

The fact of the matter is that with our unemployment level at over 300,000 anyone who comes into this House on a tedious afternoon and offers the prescription, as we begin a new period for Government, that jobs are won from markets is being unrealistic. That is some policy. The fact of the matter is that not only in the United States economy, in every economy in Europe, there is a whole change going on because what has happened is that the strategies of the last ten years have gradually contracted demand, among other things, and one is seeing a return to different forms of neo-Keynesianism and different forms of investment is necessary to try to stem the scale of the social crisis of which I spoke.

Let us be calm and positive. We are dealing simultaneously with a social crisis and a financial crisis, and anyone who suggests that one must put the financial crisis first and wait to address the social consequences of that as some kind of residuum is simply not being responsible in relation to the scale of the social problems we have in this country. Indeed anybody who, for some extraordinary reason, is waging a kind of campaign against public investment is behaving in an extraordinary way. Let us be very clear about what we have had for a great deal of the time. We have been treated by different Governments on different sides of the House to a kind of climatological theory of economics in which we have been asked to see that when conditions are right eventually investment will take place and from that jobs will come. The fact is that the scale of the job requirement is now so great we can no longer rely on such a strategy. There is need for guided intervention in the economy, to use such funds as are necessary; we may need, if necessary, to borrow so as to mitigate the scale of the social crisis. Let us stop the nonsense of those who are saying repeatedly that we must swallow the hard medicine if ultimately our children's children's children are to ever have a job in this country. That is what is coming from that side and I quite frankly, hope that what we are not seeing, as Deputy Rabbitte said, is a regression to Fine Gael's right wing thinking — that assumes that there was a significant departure from it in the first place.

There are a few very important points that have to be cleared up in regard to the Labour Party and democracy and the lectures we have had all afternoon. In regard to a party that got 40 per cent of the vote of the electorate, I have heard people suggest this afternoon that we who had 33 seats were not entitled to talk to that party as of right because the "respectable" party was available with their diminished strength. We were also not supposed to talk to the Democratic Left who were, for unstated reasons, unacceptable. We were also not to talk to the diminished party without the new little party with them in the same room lest they feel insecure. When there were all these vetoes all around the place we were supposed to beat our way past them all and then when we were sitting down, the party that really knew economics, and the party who are the keepers of the Holy Grail of right wing economics, between the two of them, would put manners on us, to use the phrase that was quoted earlier—an unfortunate phrase, I agree.

Let us think of Deputy Dukes who expressed both admiration and affection for me earlier, which I can return. He was making a case for a calmness of analysis. He found something seriously wrong with rhetoric. He found that he was suggesting that reason was doomed. I believe I have not disqualified the electorate at all. I happen to believe very much in the intelligence of the Irish electorate in all their subtlety; I think they know what they are doing. I think they do not like being told that they are being swayed by rhetoric, that they have in fact been appallingly abused by what are called spindoctors and image managers in the case of Deputy Spring. I think Deputy Spring has done a very good job in building the alternative, in building support for the Labour Party, doubling its representation and a whole series of other things. People should look at that and try to see that maybe that is the road to go.

There was a rather sneering reference made to "this tortuous process" and how the proposals of the Labour Party had been invented by the party leader and by unrepresentative people who were in a `kitchen cabinet"—these are the phrases that were used—and that the ordinary delegates who would attend our conference would have at the top "singers, roses and guitars etc." but that they would have very little opportunity of affecting things. I believe, quite frankly that our members know a little better than that and are much better informed about what our options are.

There is an appalling reference that was made by Deputy Dukes that the Labour Party are having difficulty about the amount of money that can be plundered from the taxpayer. I wonder who it was that was against the wealth tax in this country and what kind of parties and what kind of political thinking. What I wonder too about it, when all the froth has settled, is how unreasonable it was for us to turn to parties and ask them to abandon their proposals for privatisation which was in effect job destruction. I think it would have been much fairer, much more balanced if people waited for the programme. I have not said if this programme will be accepted or not. It is not completed; negotiations are not finished, but I can assure the House — and I was chairman of the Labour Party for 11 years — that when Labour members and Labour delegates come to evaluate what they will do they will be influenced very calmly by an entirely new historic situation in which Irish politics is moving into a European model. Most of all they will be influenced by how possible it is to construct politics of hope, how it is possible to turn economics around in a way that can be within certain constraints but at the same time impact much more on job creation, how it is possible to create demand by using one's capital spending in a wise way. They will not be hung up in any sense about that, and there will be people at that conference who will have read as much economics as the people over there. The difference will be that they will be thinking with their heads but they will also be very much feeling with their hearts for the people who have been on the waiting lists and that is terribly important.

I want to conclude by saying that the nature of the speeches this afternoon was unfortunately quite vicious at times; it is perhaps due to disappointed expectations. The fact of the matter is very simply this: the Labour Party has gone to the public with a programme after the election which did not give a clear majority to any party. It has taken its programme where it can be negotiated and has refused to put itself into a straightjacket of right wing economics in which one could not move. It has, as well as that, decided to make demands and has listened to those who are responding to its demands. That, it seems to me, is quite democratic. It has not disqualified the electorate; it has not disqualified the media; it has not accused anybody of a plot and is remarkably pleased that the public doubled its vote. Despite all the insults to the intelligence of the public from Fine Gael this afternoon I happen to believe that the public's intelligence will endure long after the bad temper of Fine Gael.

Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle. I would just like to make a few points. I have no intention of travelling the same ground that has been ploughed so often here this evening. I am surprised at the attitude of Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats. They have attacked a Government which has not been formed and a programme which has not been put together, agreed or published. It is a most unusual development which can only be classified as a charade. I would have expected to hear Members of Fine Gael, the Progressive Democrats and others stating where the Government failed over the last two months in carrying out the business of Government and in managing the affairs of the nation. We have not failed, we have done this extremely successfully. Is their attitude a substitute for the lack of any constructive criticism which the parties opposite could level at this Government over the last couple of months? Is that the reason for fighting the election all over again and or trying to bring a new form of Opposition into this House? It is strange, to say the least, to try to turn the result of the election on its head. We face very serious problems and an Opposition party should not indulge in this kind of sterile debate. The public look to this House to point the way to the future and there is no point in going back over the year to recall remarks which were made a long time ago.

Deputy John Bruton spoke about credibility in Government; when he was Minister for Finance he introduced a budget in this House which caused the Government to fall because of £8 million which he intended to raise from taxation on children's shoes and clothing.

This year's budget has not been introduced yet.

There would not have been an election if it had not been for the Taoiseach's incompetence.

Please, Deputy, allow the Taoiseach to speak.

At the time Deputy Bruton wanted to raise the £8 million to which I referred, in the Department of Energy there were £31 million additional Appropriations-in-Aid which meant that there was no need to raise the £8 million in the first place. That certainly shows his level of incompetence at that time.

There was a saving the year before that.

I could give many more examples but will not waste the time of the House. I could not believe my ears today when I heard Deputy Bruton bragging about the great deal he put together in relation to the joint venture between NET and ICI when he was Minister for Industry and Commerce. It was the worst deal ever made on behalf of the taxpayers, it was a white elephant. At least he did not boast about the other deal made behind close doors — I am glad that Deputy Dukes has joined us as he will be familiar with this — with a banking institution which set the liability of the taxpayers at £200 million more than he anticipated. I would have expected Members of the Opposition to forget about the election — it is over — and to advance constructive ideas as to how our problems might be solved. We were lectured this evening on the evils of borrowing from two former Ministers for Finance on the Opposition benches. However, they allowed the national debt to double.

What was wrong with borrowing, the Taoiseach wants to borrow more?

Deputy Dukes, please desist——

Where is Michael O'Kennedy?

The debt-GNP ratio as shown by the National Debt Treasury Agency management last Friday has reduced to 102 per cent of GNP and the GDP ratio has gone down to 91 per cent. I would have expected the Opposition Members to acknowledge that a reasonable job has been done in the management of the public finances in very difficult times.

Fantastic.

They should not insult the intelligence of Deputies by saying that the way forward is not through——

Reynolds and Ahern.

They cannot deny that structural investment will create jobs and will bring economic growth. It is a legitimate instrument of public economic policy and if they deny it I will lose all faith in reason or commonsense coming from that side of the House.

Members of the Opposition know that there cannot be growth in foreign markets when all markets are in recession but we must do everything humanly possible to relieve the social problems of the community and we are trying to get this country back to work. The Opposition should applaud any efforts in that regard.

Does the Taoiseach have a plan yet?

What about the exchange rate?

Deputy Dukes should allow the Taoiseach to make his contribution without interruption.

I know why Deputy Dukes allocated the Department of Finance to Deputy Bruton who failed, at the second attempt, to have a budget passed in this House.

He did not fail, the Taoiseach's party implemented his budget.

It is quite clear, from listening to Members of the Opposition, that the only type of criticism they could level at this side of the House was in relation to appointments. Those who live in glasshouses should not throw stones. The Members of the Opposition who criticise the Government should examine the record and apply the same criteria which they applied in this House today in relation to a statement I made here on 14 December last. I stand over every aspect of it, no appointments have been made by the Government, apart from that of Deputy Flynn, since 14 December. There were references here and elsewhere to other appointments made over the last three or four months and the impression was given that they had been made since my statement. I do not think that any Member of the Opposition would seriously suggest that when the Government secretary retires he should not be replaced.

Who is for the chop?

The Government made appointments on 28 November and 4 December to the governing bodies of Dublin City University and the University of Limerick, whose terms of office had expired in September and October respectively. I am sure everyone will agree that it is not desirable to leave large institutions without governing bodies or boards——

Fianna Fáil appointed a higher education authority which did not meet for six months.

When you have a good Fianna Fáil man apparently it is all right.

Are we supposed to leave such appointments until the Opposition decide they will talk to another party about the formation of a Government? A very interesting appointment was made in the mid west, regarding which Deputy Carey should inquire. He should also examine appointments made after the last election and at various other times. However, there are still many vacancies on State boards——

Are there some left?

Indeed there are.

(Interruptions.)

This evening we have seen, for the first time, an all out attack by the Opposition on a Government which has not been formed and a programme which has not been put together. The normal courtesy of parliamentary life in this House, since I came into it, and observed by all previous Opposition leaders, was to wait and see what happened before criticising a Government which had not been formed. I do not know the reason for this onslaught, perhaps some Members were trying to prove that they could be leader of the party opposite.

(Interruptions.)

There is no point in criticising the Government who successfully managed the affairs of the country for the last couple of months. This is a new style of Opposition, of which we have heard so much between 1987 and 1989. With all due respects to Deputy Dukes, he certainly invented a new style of Opposition but now there has been a U-turn by a man who is not sure whether he will be leading the party for much longer. Quite clearly there are both male and female contestants over there for that job.

You know the feeling, Taoiseach.

I am well able to watch my job and I hope the Member opposite is able to do the same.

Speak about appointments——

There is always a second chance, Deputy Dukes, do not give up too quickly. However, any pretence of new style Opposition went by the board here this evening and was thrown unceremoniously out the window because as I said already they have put the cart before the horse.

We have heard enough, enough red herrings have been thrown into debate here this evening. I will conclude by saying that we will get back to building a platform to tackle the problems the people want us to tackle. The two parties are entitled to talk about building a common platform and putting forward a common policy that will respond to the changes that need to be made in society.

A make-over.

We will look at the major problems facing this economy. We recognise that we do not have all the answers but we are making an honest effort to build a common platform. We will resume that job and will then see how successful we have been between now and next Tuesday.

Question put and declared carried.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.5 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 12 January 1993.
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