Molaim: "Go dtóghtar an Teachta Seosamh Jacob mar Leas-Cheann Comhairle".
I move:
That Deputy Joe Jacob be elected Leas-Cheann Comhairle.
Election of Leas-Cheann Comhairle.
I propose that Deputy Mary Flaherty be elected Leas-Cheann Comhairle. To the best of my knowledge, a woman Member has never been an occupant of either the Office of Ceann Comhairle or Leas-Cheann Comhairle. When so many women have been returned by the will of the Irish people to this Dáil it is appropriate that at least one of the senior presiding offices in his House should be occupied by a woman. I wish to state clearly that I do not put forward Deputy Mary Flaherty's name, primarily on grounds of gender. It is important to point out that she has very considerable parliamentary experience, having been a Member since 1981 and has longer than average service in this House. During that period she has been a Minister of State at the Department of Social Welfare and a Front Bench spokesperson for her party on subjects as diverse as social welfare, energy, communications and family affairs. She is also a parliamentarian who has won the respect of Members on all sides by her conciliatory approach in her dealings with all Members and she would be an excellent occupant of the office of Leas-Cheann Comhairle. As is the tradition in the Seanad, this office should be held by a Deputy from the Opposition benches.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
I wish to indicate that the Progressive Democrats are supporting Deputy Flaherty for this position and we do so for a number of reasons. First, given the unprecedented size of the Government majority, it is particularly important that the Opposition should hold this key position. It was a long tradition in this House — until 1973 — that this position was held by the Opposition and in 1981 the then Ceann Comhairle, Deputy O'Connell, gave his casting vote for the Opposition nominee. That tradition should be restored because the fundamental health of our democracy can only be protected in the context of such a huge Government majorities and those generous towards minorities and those that differ politically from us. The test of the Government's attitude to democracy and its intent to preserve the health of our democracy will be seen in its treatment of the Opposition and minorities in this House.
Second, Deputy Flaherty represents a younger generation of politicians, despite the fact that she has 11 years experience in this House. This is an old institution and there are many Members who were elected. For that reason also, it is important that a new generation be represented in one of the office positions of the House. We have now 20 women elected to this House and it took 75 years to get to this position. In all, we have only ever elected 55 women to Dáil Éireann.
We know how difficult it is to elect women to Dáil Éireann. Members of the Labour Party know how difficult it is because it was only in the 15th election that Labour elected their first woman Deputy. Prior to the last election when five women were returned for the Labour Party it had only ever elected two Deputies. That party knows how difficult it is, and that electing a woman does not happen accidentally. It is significant — I do not say this in a partisan way — that my party which is seven years old has had six women elected in three elections and that does not happen accidentally. We must set out to encourage women of substance to enter politics.
(Interruptions.)
I am disappointed the Minister for Education is heckling me.
(Interruptions.)
I must insist on a good hearing for the Deputy in possession.
The Minister should be brought to order.
For the benefit of the Minister for Education I will quote the following from the Programme for Government:
That the Government will introduce a radical programme of affirmative action in appointing women to State boards with the objective of achieving a minimum of 40 per cent of both men and women among the direct appointments by the Government.
It is not too much to expect that women could hold 40 per cent of the positions of those who preside over this House or are we going to again have 100 per cent men for the next three or four years? The Programme for Government refers to gender proofing for all policy and legislation. We may have a Minister for Equality and Law Reform and we expect great things from him but the greatest assistance we can give to this Minister when he talks to the Fitzwilliam Club and so on is by our example, to lead the way. We will show that we will elect not just any woman for the sake of electing a woman. Deputy Flaherty is not just any woman, she is a competent, experienced and popular Deputy. She is the type of person, who would bring great credit to this House in the way she would preside over its preceedings but she would do much more than that. The Cheann Comhairle and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle represent this House abroad, leading many important delegations and meeting many foreign dignitaries. It would send a great signal to those who visit this House if a woman held the position of Leas-Cheann Comhairle. We are not looking for the top job yet.
It would send a very meaningful signal to the politicians in Northern Ireland whom we are always preaching to about being generous and open, if we too showed that minorities in this House, the Opposition in the first instance, and women in the second, were appointed to this position.
There has been much talk about change. If we continue to elect the people to preside over our business in the same way as we have done in the past we will not send out any great signal to the public, that we are interested in change. Tomorrow afternoon, the Taoiseach will receive the report of the Commission on the Status of Women. I am aware the Taoiseach has receive it publicly tomorrow. The Taoiseach is aware of the Commission's view that the reason women are discriminated against in Ireland is because they do not occupy key decision-making roles in our society. Until they do, even though much legislation may be enacted, it will not make any difference. The Taoiseach should think again about the person proposed for this position. I hold no personal grievance against Deputy Jacob. He is a very fine Deputy and, as far as I know, a warm and friendly person. I have no doubt he will do a good job, but there is more involved.
Bearing in mind the extent of the Government majority, the importance of encouraging women to enter public life, the fact that we have a Minister for Equality and Law Reform and the Government's programme, I hope that the 40 per cent referred to in the programme will become the norm when the Government makes appointments. While it may be too late for the Taoiseach to change his mind in regard to this appointment when he names his 11 nominees to the Seanad, I hope he will follow the proposal in the programme. I hope that at least four women will be named in the Taoiseach's nominees and not just one or two token appointments which would be an insult to women in general and particularly to the Commission on the Status of Women whose report the Taoiseach will receive tomorrow. The Progressive Democrats are happy to support Fine Gael's nomination of Deputy Flaherty, whom we consider would make a fine Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Her appointment would be a great example to the many women we want to bring into Irish politics.
On behalf of Democratic Left I wish to indicate our support for the nomination of Deputy Flaherty for the position of Leas-Cheann Comhairle. It is not necessary to repeat the excellent case made by Deputy Harney as to the reason this House should elect a woman on this occasion. Deputy Flaherty is a member of Fine Gael and she would carry out her duties in an objective and fair way. She is a colleague of mine in Dublin North-West and I have always found her to be an extremely able and fair-minded person. I have no doubt that if she is elected to this position she will carry out the job effectively and do honour to this House. This appointment should have been discussed by the party leaders, as was the case in regard to the appointment of the Ceann Comhairle. It would make sense to have a Member from the Opposition benches elected Leas-Cheann Comhairle on this occasion, particularly in view of the size of the Government's majority. I have no hesitation in supporting the nomination of Deputy Flaherty.
I am putting the question.
(Interruptions.)
I formally second the proposal that Deputy Flaherty be appointed Leas-Cheann Comhairle. We welcome the support of our colleagues in the Opposition benches, particularly the excellently articulated support of Deputy Harney. While I have some concerns about the overall concept of gender proofing in seconding Deputy Flaherty's nomination I am supporting a woman of great experience and ability, both inside and outside this House. Much lip service is paid to the need for change. Deputy Flaherty is the ideal role model to have as Leas-Cheann Comhairle. The Ceann Comhairle will not mind me suggesting that Deputy Flaherty, apart from introducing a gender balance and, perhaps an age balance to the position, will create an urban-rural balance which would be very effective also. I am sure we can expect the support of all sides on this House given the lip service——
A Deputy
Particularly the Labour Party.
——paid to the role of women and the need for change. Role models are needed in his House to encourage more women at local and national level to become involved in politics and parliamentary representation. I hope we can count on the support of the House.
I assure the Deputy that I do not feel the slightest bit old.
(Interruptions.)
I support the nomination of Deputy Flaherty. It is particularly appropriate for this Chamber to support Deputy Flaherty the day before the Commission on the Status of Women launches its historic report which includes a few hundred recommendations to improve the status of women in Irish society. The commission received more than 600 submissions, more than any other commission in the history of the State. It would be appropriate if this House led by example and supported Deputy Flaherty for the position of Leas-Cheann Comhairle. The whole question of women having access to key decision-making positions is a critical one and while 20 women have been elected to this Dáil, it is by no means the critical mass of women we need in decision-making arenas such as the Dáil.
Question put: "That Deputy Joe Jacob be elected Leas-Cheann Comhairle."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 94; Níl, 59.
Tá
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Ahern, Noel.
- Andrews, David.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Bell, Michael.
- Bhamjee, Moosajee.
- Bhreathnach, Niamh.
- Bree, Declan.
- Brennan, Matt.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Broughan, Tommy.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Burton, Joan.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Costello, Joe.
- Coughlan, Mary.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Davern, Noel.
- Killeen, Tony.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McDaid, James.
- McDowell, Derek.
- Moffat, Tom.
- Morely, P. J.
- Moynihan, Donal.
- Mulvihill, John.
- Nolan, M. J.
- Noonan, Michael (Limerick West).
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- O'Keeffe, Ned.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Ellis, John.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Brian.
- Fitzgerald, Eithne.
- Fitzgerald, Liam.
- Flood, Chris.
- Foley, Denis.
- Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
- Gallagher, Pat.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Haughey, Seán.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Hilliard, Colm M.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Hughes, Séamus.
- Hyland, Liam.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kemmy, Jim.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Kenny, Seán.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Sullivan, Gerry.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Pattison, Séamus.
- Penrose, William.
- Power, Seán.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Ryan, John.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Smith, Michael.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Upton, Pat.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Walsh, Eamon.
- Woods, Michael.
Níl
- Ahearn, Theresa.
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Peter.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burke, Liam.
- Carey, Donal.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Connor, John.
- Cox, Pat.
- Crawford, Seymour.
- Creed, Michael.
- Crowley, Frank.
- Cullen, Martin.
- Currie, Austin.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- De Rossa, Proinsias.
- Doyle, Avril.
- Dukes, Alan M.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- Finucane, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Gregory, Tony.
- Harney, Mary.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Keogh, Helen.
- Lowry, Michael.
- McCormack, Pádraic.
- McDowell, Michael.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- McGrath, Paul.
- McManus, Liz.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
- O'Donnell, Liz.
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- O'Malley, Desmond J.
- Owen, Nora.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Sargent, Trevor.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sheehan, P. J.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Ferris; Níl, Deputies E. Kenny and Keogh.
Question declared carried.
I should like to express my gratitude and appreciation at having been elected to the position of Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I acknowledge Deputy Flaherty's participation in the contest this morning. I know she would have been admirably suited to the position but, perhaps, I was the fortunate one today.
The position of Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and your more exalted position, a Cheann Comhairle, sometimes assume a role akin to that of a referee. There have been reports that where I come from in County Wicklow in the past referees——
Put in the boot of a car.
——have some extraordinary experiences.
Indeed.
Having been proudly involved in that sporting scene in County Wicklow all my life——
Was it your car?
——I can assure everyone that those reports were grossly exaggerated. I do not envisage that a role similar to that of referee will present a great difficulty. I feel very honoured and privileged. I assure you, a Cheann Comhairle, and my colleagues, that I will endeavour to carry out the duties of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle as effectively, efficiently and fairly as humanly possible.
Ba mhaith liomsa comhghairdeas a gabháil leis an Teachta Seosamh Jacob as ucht a thoghachán mar Leas-Cheann Comhairle an Dáil seo. The fact that Deputy Jacob, after such a relatively short political career, has won the confidence of his party and the House is indicative of his outstanding talents and qualities, qualities that I am sure he will bring to bear in the position of Leas-Cheann Comhairle.
When I agreed to let my name go forward for this position it was neither the Chair's age nor my desire to keep the position in Dublin North-West that was in my mind——
A Deputy
Or your gender.
——but the thought that many of the issues raised here this afternoon were important. Perhaps the most important issue in a Dáil with such an unprecedented majority is the desirability of having the Opposition represented in one of the two major positions presiding over, conducting and managing the affairs of the House.
When I became a Member of the Dáil in 1981 the position of Leas-Cheann Comhairle traditionally belonged to the Opposition, indeed, it was not only that position but also that of Ceann Comhairle that belonged to the Opposition. That was an important point to raise and it was a very good reason for allowing my name to go forward. I have 12 year's experience as a Deputy and the role that I had in mind for the Leas-Cheann Comhairle would have resembled that of school teacher on occasions, but, perhaps, nobody could outdo the outgoing Leas-Cheann Comhairle in that role. I still find a strange pleasure in the detail of legislation. I have enjoyed dealing with some very technical Bills and I take pleasure in seeing them pass. I would have enjoyed the role of presiding over legislation that passed through the House with speed and expedition.
As a woman, I would have taken particular pleasure in scoring a first for women by taking on the role of Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I thank my party leader, and my party, for proposing me and I appreciate the warm support received from the Progressive Democrats, Democratic Left and the Independents. I also thank members of the Government who indicated that they would have supported me had circumstances been different.
I should like to extend my good wishes to Deputy Jacob in taking up the position. I commiserate with my colleague, Deputy Flaherty, who I know would have made an excellent Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I also pay tribute to the outgoing Leas-Cheann Comhairle, Deputy Tunney, for whom I had a great affection although on occasions we clashed. Deputy Tunney served this House extremely well as Leas-Cheann Comhairle, with a great sense of humour, and preserved the dignity of the House. Even though he is a member of the party opposite I consider that, it was a sad day for this House when he lost his seat. He served the House well.
While congratulating Deputy Jacob, I nevertheless feel that the result achieved, and the manner in which the matter was dealt with today, are a sad reflection on the House. The message that goes out from this House as a result of today's vote is "Male Rule OK". The result of the vote——
I am sorry to interrupt Deputy Shatter. As the Deputy knows, when a matter is disposed of by vote that normally is the end of it, although it is usual to permit the contestants involved, to express a point of view. I cannot permit a reopening of debate on the matter.
I am not. Would you allow me to make a final point?
Yes, but that is all.
The final point I want to make is that the result of this vote spectacularly undermines the position of the Minister for Equality and Law Reform, who should tell the House whether he now intends to tender his resignation.
This is disorderly.