Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 8 Apr 1993

Vol. 429 No. 5

Ireland-United States Social Security Agreement: Motion.

Minister for Social Welfare (Dr. Woods)

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves the terms of the Agreement on Social Security between Ireland and the United States of America which was signed in Washington on 14 April, 1992, and which was laid before Dáil Éireann on 26 March, 1993.

In accordance with Article 29.5.2º of the Constitution, I seek the approval of Dáil Éireann to the terms of the Bilateral Agreement on Social Security between Ireland and the United States of America. The purpose of the agreement is to safeguard the pension rights of Irish workers who move to the US to work and to protect US workers who come to work in Ireland. The agreement will benefit thousands of Irish emigrants to the US. Many would have worked and paid social insurance contributions in Ireland for lengthy periods. Usually any social security rights they had accumulated in Ireland were forfeited once they emigrated. This agreement will mean that these social security rights can be used together with their US social security rights to qualify them for a pension whether they choose to remain in the US or come home to retire. It will mean that our emigrants to the US will have the same protection of their social security rights as workers who move within the EC.

This is the most important agreement on social security which Ireland has entered into since we joined the EC in 1973. It will have a major impact because of the huge numbers of Irish workers who have emigrated to the US in search of work. According to the US Department of Health and Human Services, an extra 1,100 US pensions will become payable to Irish people who have worked in the US and most of whom have returned home. This will generate additional income of approximately $1 million to the State. My Department has estimated that around 400 people will qualify for Irish pensions immediately the agreement comes into force. The number of pensioners will increase over time as the benefits of the agreement come into effect for our more recent emigrants. The US is already paying around 6,100 pensioners living in Ireland most of whom are returned Irish emigrants. The annual value to the State of these pensions is $35 million. My Department is currently paying 200 Irish pensions in the United States. These would be pensions which the people qualified for because they had sufficient contributions paid either in Ireland or the US to qualify.

The agreement with the US covers the following Irish benefits: old age contributory pension, retirement pension, invalidity pension, widow's contributory pension, orphans contributory allowance and death grant. In the US the following benefits are covered: retirement benefits, survivor's benefits, disability benefits and family benefits for retired or disabled workers. The agreement will apply in cases where a person has insufficent contributions to qualify for any of these benefits under the laws of one or other of the two countries. Where a person has an independent domestic entitlement there will be no need to invoke the provisions of the agreement because their independent domestic entitlement is likely to be more favourable.

The agreement will operate by allowing, for example, periods of social security contributions paid by a person while working in the US to be taken into account for an Irish pension as if they were periods of Irish PRSI. The amount of pension payable will be based on the total number of years in which the person was employed in Ireland pro rata to the combined work period in both countries. Most people who worked in both countries will qualify for two pro rata pensions, one from each country. A similar method of calculation will be used by the US authorities.

A further provision of the agreement will benefit Irish workers posted to the US temporarily and US workers sent here by their parent company on the same basis. When the agreement comes into operation such a worker will only be subject to the social security laws of one country. It will mean that Irish workers posted to the US will continue to pay PRSI contributions here and retain their rights to full Irish benefits and will also be exempted from paying any social security taxes in the US. Similarly, US workers will remain attached to the US social security system for up to five years.

The claiming arrangements under the agreement have been kept simple. A person living here can apply directly to my Department to have his US entitlement examined. We will take it from there. We will send the claim to the appropriate US authority and find out any further details they might need. A US resident can apply to the US authorities about his or her possible Irish entitlement. The pensions will be paid by each country separately.

Some years ago, I took the initiative of extending the free schemes to EC pensioners and people receiving pensions under bilateral agreements. When this agreement comes into operation Irish people with US pensions living here will also become entitled to free electricity, TV licence and telephone rental allowance. As a result of the agreement 3,500 US pensioners living here will for the first time qualify for the free electricity concession and some 1,800 will qualify for the free TV licence and telephone rental. These concessions will be extended to them immediately the agreement comes into operation.

In effect this will be a pension protection network for Irish workers. It is the fourth social security agreement to protect workers' pension rights which I have concluded since I started with the Ireland-Austria agreement in 1989. My objective is to extend to our emigrant workers the same level of protection as they would have, if they worked within the EC.

The potential benefit this type of protection has for our young workforce is enormous. It means that mobility is a practical proposition for them because their future pension entitlements are secure. There are 8,500 people receiving either old age, retirement or widow's contributory pensions on foot of a combination of social insurance contributions in Ireland and other EC states. This number will go further as the next generation becomes increasingly mobile.

We have agreements in place with Austria, Canada and Australia. I will sign agreements with New Zealand and Quebec later this year. Negotiations are underway at official level with the United Kingdom in respect of residents of the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, who are not covered by the EC regulations.

A European Economic Area (EEA) Agreement is expected to come into force later on this year to bring nationals of the former EFTA States (except Switzerland), that is Austria, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Liechenstein, within the same social security legal framework as EC nationals. Any Irish workers who are in these countries will, therefore, have all their social security rights fully safeguarded once the agreement becomes operative.

Negotiations are also underway on a separate bilateral agreement between ourselves and Switzerland. When all of these agreements are in place we will then have a network of agreements with 21 different countries. This network represents a major protective safety net for all our emigrant workers. It will mean that when they reach pension age their pension rights will be secured and they will suffer no reduction or loss of their entitlements because their working careers are spread over a number of different countries. I regard these agreements as fundamentally important in my overall pension strategy.

I have seen at first hand the very positive attitude of our emigrants towards the Canadian and Australian agreements and I met with and had lengthy discussions with representatives of Irish groups and associations in these countries when I signed both of these agreements. The agreement we are discussing here today has generated a huge amount of interest both here and in the United States. Its introduction will be warmly welcomed and appreciated by many thousands of Irish workers in both countries. I will be exploring the possibility of extending the number of countries with whom we have agreements when the present phase is completed.

Deputies will be aware of my determination to ensure that the pension rights of the half million members of occupational pension schemes are secure. The Pensions Act which I introduced in 1990 to provide safeguards for such pensions is still the foremost legislation of its kind in Europe. To ensure that the same kind of protection can be given to Irish members of overseas-based pension schemes, I took powers in the Social Welfare Act, passed last week, to enable me to pursue, with other countries, agreements which would afford these workers the standard of protection for their pension rights which is laid down in our Pensinos Act.

This is an important agreement for Irish workers and their families who have spent some of their working career in the United States. It will bring them considerable benefits by way of pensions which they could not have qualified for previously and also a range of entitlements under the free schemes. This initiative will be warmly welcomed by Irish emigrants both in Ireland and in the US. They will see in it a recognition of their needs and welfare. We value the contribution which they have made to the development of the country of their birth and the country to which they emigrated.

I learned this morning that the United States Congress has now approved the agreement and this means that the operative date will be 1 September.

I strongly commend this motion to the House.

Mr. Allen

Sir, with your permission I wish to share my time with Deputy Kenny.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Allen

I welcome this agreement which is progressive in nature and will take effect on 1 September 1993, if ratified today. This agreement will protect the pension rights of people who have paid social security contributions in Ireland and in the United States. It does so by allowing social security contributions paid in Ireland to be counted towards qualifying for certain benefits in the United States and vice versa. It also contains important provisions for workers who are sent on temporary assignments from one country to the other. It will cover any person who has been subject to the social security laws in Ireland and the United States and who has paid social security contributions in both countries. In the United States it will relate to benefits under the federal programme in relation to retirement benefits, survivor's benefits, disability benefits and family benefits for dependants of retired or disabled workers.

Irish citizens who worked in both Ireland and the United States and paid social security contributions in both countries will now qualify. I learned from the Minister's remarks that a person can qualify for pensions from both countries and be entitled to receive both at the same time. Another benefit that will result from the scheme when it comes into operation is that all recipients of US social security pensions of the type covered by the agreement who are living in Ireland will be entitled to apply for the free schemes available under the Irish social welfare system. I welcome that provision as it was a serious omission up to now.

This agreement is very important to many people who were forced to live in the United States but wish to return to Ireland. Up to now they were often prevented from returning for financial reasons. A person who worked in Ireland for a number of years and was then forced to emigrate due to job loss, redundancy or the high levels of unemployment in this country fell between the two systems and this injustice is now being eliminated. In addition they will qualify for the added benefits under the Irish social welfare system.

In welcoming this agreement I am at the same time mindful of the many thousands of people who left this country down through the years because of unemployment and entered the United States illegally. They are not part of the regularised workforce there. Many of these people, unfortunately, have been exploited due to their classification as aliens and receive low wages. They have been prevented from claiming benefits under the United States system and still cannot gain recognition for their long years of positive work and toil in the United States. The United States economy has been built partly on the hard work of Irish people down through the decades but many of these are still outside the system. There must be tens of thousands of Irish people who are still trapped by the unjust system in the United States.

What is the reason a person from this part of the island has to obtain a visa to enter the United States? Very often they have to endure what I would describe as a degrading procedure at the United States embassy. Indeed, when they apply for a holiday visa they can be called not once or twice but sometimes three times for an interview before eventually being rejected. We have all come across such cases. I dealt recently with a case where a brother and sister applied for visas to go to the United States to attend a wedding with their parents. The sister was given a visa while her brother was rejected. This question must be raised by the Government.

While people from this part of the island can encounter problems a person from the other jurisdiction on this island, from Great Britain or other European countries, can gain admission to the United States without a visa. This is true also in the case of people from Far Eastern countries; they can enter the United States quite easily. I cannot accept this unjust system and I have raised this question on many occasions in the House and with the United States embassy, but I have yet to be given a satisfactory explanation. It is about time that this unjust system was terminated.

What is the reason Irish people who wish to gain admission to the United States hold this unique position among the citizens of the European Community and why does the United States Administration discriminate against the Irish population? What about the so-called special relationship between this country and the United States and the special recognition in the United States of the role played by Irish people down through the years, which has been spoken about so often? Is this special relationship limited to St. Patrick's Day speeches? Is it a matter that can be raised at election time in the United States and then quietly and easily put aside or is it a genuine one and, if so, what is the reason it is not recognised in the manner I have outlined?

I ask the Minister, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Taoiseach who, we have been told will be going to the United States in two weeks time, to raise this matter with the United States authorities to eliminate this injustice once and for all. If this is done, this agreement which is being ratified today and which I welcome, would have more meaning for Irish people who are outside the system at present. The Minister stated also that further agreements will be entered into with the United Kingdom and other European countries.

I would now like to refer to the one contribution rule which emigrants have to comply with when they return to this country. They will qualify when they pay one social welfare contribution but very often this can prove to be a major impediment for returned emigrants in obtaining social welfare payments. I ask the Minister to address this issue.

Dr. Woods

Lest there be any confusion, this only applies in the case of unemployment payments.

Mr. Allen

It is unjust that returned emigrants are often faced with this insurmountable barrier. I ask the Minister to consider waiving that rule.

Mr. E. Kenny

First, I wish to take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Woods, for bringing this matter to a successful conclusion. His predecessor, the Minister for Tourism and Trade, Deputy McCreevy, signed this agreement on 14 April 1992 and I am very happy that it is to be brought into effect on 1 September this year. I have asked various Ministers for Social Welfare questions about this agreement during the past ten years or so and, as I said, I am happy the matter has been brought to a successful conclusion.

This agreement will strengthen the historic links between Ireland and the United States which date back to post-Famine times when Irish people first began to emigrate to the United States. Indeed, the stories of the American "wakes" held in this country before people emigrated never to return are part of our culture and history. From that point of view, this agreement is welcome.

There are literally very few houses in the west, from Donegal to Mayo, through Connemara to the southern counties which do not have strong connections with the United States. There is practically no house in County Mayo which does not have direct relatives living in the United States. Indeed, people from certain parishes have tended to populate certain areas of the United States. For instance, people from the Achill area tend to emigrate to Cleveland, people from Tourmakeady tend to travel to Boston while people from the Belmullet-Erris area tend to travel farther west to San Francisco, Los Angeles and so on. In addition, people from all over Ireland have emigrated to New York.

When one speaks to pensioners they always tell us that they felt that they were second class citizens in that they were forced to leave this country when it did not have anything to offer them. However, they used their initiative and worked for most of their lives in the United States and in the process supported their families in Ireland. Throughout the forties, fifties and sixties the parcel from America was of major importance to the families that remained at home. While there have been advances in telecommunications and travelling time has been shortened, these people played an important part in maintaining links with Ireland. This agreement confirms their view that they were neglected and let down. I am very happy to commend the Minister for bringing the matter to a successful conclusion.

When the Minister comes to reply he might indicate the reason 3,500 pensioners will qualify for free electricity while only 1,800 will qualify for a free television licence and telephone rental allowance. These returned emigrants who are now drawing United States social security pensions worked in the copper mines in Butte, Montana, as shop assistants in Macey's in New York, as steel-workers in Cleveland and so on.

I am happy to note that people who work with American firms which have a base here and who are sent to the United States to gain experience and for training will be retained on the Irish social security register for up to five years.

Perhaps the Minister would bear in mind that on two occasions President Clinton failed to appoint an attorney general. In one instance he was unable to do so because his nominee had employed illegal aliens in the United States. This matter is a source of concern for employers in the United States who may be fearful of employing Irish people who may not have a visa. When the Taoiseach visits the United States he should raise this matter with the powers that be. This is very important legislation. It gives consolation and a degree of dignity and recognition to a great number of people who in difficult times worked abroad, sending part of their earnings to Ireland to keep their families alive.

As a member of the British-Irish Parliamentary Association it has been brought to my attention that there is a great number of Irish workers in Britain who were not in the contribution system but who worked on the "lump". In their later years they found themselves unemployable and have ended up in doss-houses and hostels, relying on the social security system. These people played their part in the building of Great Britain after the war and contributed to the upkeep of their families here. Many of them are too proud to return to the land of their birth, having worked for many years in Britain without being in any contribution system.

This agreement between Ireland and the US points clearly to the importance of people being registered for employment and having contributions credited to them. It means that pension and social security rights are safeguarded in either country. It is critically important that all negotiations between countries in terms of employment and social welfare benefits should stress this fact. We should make it as easy as possible for Irish workers in Britain and in America to be properly registered and above board, so that when they reach pension age their rights will be safeguarded.

The news of this agreement will be very welcome to a great number of people from Donegal, Mayo, Galway, West Kerry and throughout the country who emigrated in difficult times and palyed their part in the building up of the US and in keeping their families alive in Ireland. This agreement is due recognition by the Government of the part they played. I welcome this wholeheartedly and commend the Minister for his interest in this matter.

Mr. Molloy

Go raibh maith agat, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Ar son an Pháirtí Daonlathaigh, fáiltím roimh an socrú seo idir ár Stáit fhéin agus na Stáit Aontaithe a déanadh le linn do mo pháirtí a bheith san iar-Rialtas. Is maith go bhfuil sé á chur i bhfeidhm anois. Tá na mílte daoine ann a d'fhág iarthar na hÉireann chun post a lorg i Meiriceá. D'fhan a bhformhór ann ar feadh a saol ach iadsan a d'fhill, uaireanta bhí sé deacair orthu a gcearta pinsin a bhaint amach, i gcompar-aid le daoine a d'oibrigh anseo i gcónaí. Tá áthas orm go bhfuil athrú ag teacht ar an scéal anois agus ní mór dúinn ár mbuíochas a ghabháil le Rialtas Mheir-iceá as ucht an tsocruithe seo. Is dócha go mbeidh muintir na tíre seo ag baint níos mó taírbhe as ná mar a bheidh Meiriceán-aigh.

On behalf of the Progressive Democrats I welcome this agreement which was entered into with the Government in the US when my party was a member of the previous Government. I am glad that it is now being formally implemented. It will serve to standardise the complicated and entangled process of sorting out the pension rights of the increasing number of Irish and American workers who at some point in their lives travelled across the ocean to work. Already, agreements of this type exist between Ireland and both EC and non-EC countries.

A fundamental right of any person who works and pays contributions, either through PRSI in Ireland or through the primary insurance agreement in the United States, is that at the end of one's working life one should be able to receive one's full pension rights and there should be a minimum of bureaucratic fuss involved in so doing.

At present to qualify here for any form of a pro-rata pension payment, one must have made 20 PRSI contributions. This necessitates having spent 16 years working in Ireland or in a country with which a pension agreement has been reached.

If a person has spent less than 16 years working in Ireland, and has worked abroad in a country which does not have such an agreement, one will not qualify for any contributory pension.

On this point, the Progressive Democrats await the final report of the National Pensions Board, to see their recommendations on whether a form of proportional contributory pension might be paid if a person is just short of the 20 contributions required at present. That report is expected during the summer. The board is currently examining the whole relationship between pensions and social insurance payments.

It seems unfair that the difference between qualifying for some form of contributory pension and not qualifying at all is as little as one contribution. A fairer method, and one which I understand the National Pensions Board are examining, might be the payment of entitlements on a ratio basis, so that no one who had contributed in any way would be denied contributory assistance at the end of the working life.

Another important aspect of current employment trends has been covered under the terms of this agreement. Where an employee is sent by his or her parent company to work in Ireland or the United States for a specified length of time, that time will be assessed, for pension purposes, as having been spent in their native country.

While welcoming this agreement, it would be inappropriate to let the Government sit back on their laurels. What is contained in the text of this agreement is no more than a standardisation of a bureaucratic procedure. It simplifies the process of claiming a contributory pension, but sorting out these wrangles is no more than the job of the Government anyway.

This agreement will have been signed on behalf of Ireland by the then Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Charlie McCreevy a year ago next Wednesday. Why has it taken so long to bring before the House the text of an agreement which has already been signed? This does not bode well for those Irish in America working illegally and not making payments to the American primary insurance programme. The Government now needs to act to secure even the most basic rights of protection for these workers.

A recent estimate put the number of illegal Irish emigrants working in the US at 135,000. The Government must, as a matter of priority, turn its attention to trying to secure some kind of provision for their welfare from the new American administration. Let us hope that if such an agreement can be reached, it will not take a full year for the text to come before the House.

There has been unprecedented demand for the different visa schemes since they were first issued. Irish people in growing numbers are interested in travelling to America. The provision of the permanent visas means that at least some people can travel legally.

A standardisation of all procedures in relation to the claiming of contributory pension entitlements, and indeed all other social insurance payments, whether paid inside or outside this country, is urgently needed. I would urge the Minister to pay immediate attention to that need.

I hope the implementation of this agreement marks the beginning of that process. Many tens of thousands of people from Ireland have travelled to eke out a living in the US. There have been millions over the years. We must be very grateful to the US Government for its assistance to so many of our fellow countrymen. Galway is a county which probably has more emigrants who have had to go to the US over the years than any other county. If one was to take the Galway people or the Connemara people from places like Chicago and Boston, it would leave a huge void in those cities. They are very much part of society in those cities. Many of these people have an ambition to spend their latter years at home in their own country. I represent a constituency from which many people have emigrated and I am familiar with the difficulties which returned emigrants experience.

The formal implementation of this agreement will be of great benefit to many of those people and, although it is a year late, I express my appreciation to the Minister. It will be welcomed by many people throughout Ireland but in the west in particular. I hope this is merely the start of many major improvements to eliminate the differences which have existed for those who have had to emigrate and the loss they experienced on their return. I should like to express our grateful thanks to the American Government for its willingness to enter into this agreement with us.

Mr. Killeen

Iarraim cead mo chuid ama a roinnt leis an Teachta Coughlan.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Killeen

Fáiltím roimh an socrú seo agus tréaslaím leis an Aire agus leis an iar-Aire as ucht é a bhaint amach.

I welcome the principle that those who have paid for their entitlements should have maximum flexibility to transfer them abroad and, indeed, maximum benefits from them here. The cost-benefit comparison for such payments shows them in a negative light relative to benefits available to people on unemployment assistance. Frequently, those people who are fortunate to be in permanent employment tend to be less expert on matters pertaining to benefits. For example, many would not be aware that all contributory pensions are fully "exportable" to any country — at least I understand that is the case but, perhaps, the Minister will clarify the matter — irrespective of whether we have a bilateral agreement with that country. Several aspects of the agreement, referred to by other speakers, are particularly welcome.

The five-year rule would affect a substantial number of people who would have been in employment in my constituency with an American company for two or three years. Obviously, they would make substantial savings by continuing to make their contributions under the American system without the necessity to pay contributions here. Equally, there are many people working with companies here who on transfer to America for a period of years or months under this agreement, will continue to pay their PRSI here and will not be liable for further payments in the United States. That will, obviously, be a substantial cost saving for them, plus the extra benefits at the end of the day.

A substantial number of people lost out badly because they did not have sufficient contributions either here or in America. I understand, under the terms of this agreement, they will be able to accumulate their rights in both jurisidictions and will gain substantially.

Many people living here have American pensions and it is not always the case that they are well off. The fact that hitherto they have been debarred from benefits such as the free TV licence, ESB and telephone rental allowance has been a great disadvantage to them. I welcome the fact that many of these people will how be eligible for such benefits. I laud the principle of extending rights to emigrants — in this case our emigrants to America. As the Minister indicated, he intends, within a short period, to have a similar agreement with 21 countries. As Deputies Enda Kenny and Molloy pointed out, their constituencies, which are close to mine, have a long and sad tradition of emigration to America. This agreement will be of enormous benefit to those people who may return.

I welcome also the extension of power which the Minister has, under the pensions Act, since last year, to protect pensions by agreement with other countries. That has been a matter of grave concern not just to people who have travelled from one country to another but for those who have fears about their pension rights. This bilateral agreement, which extends benefits to people who previously had little or no benefits, is welcome and it is a very good road on which to continue to travel.

Miss Coughlan

Fáiltím roimh an socrú atá os ár gcomhair inniu agus tréaslaím leis an Aire as ucht é a bhaint amach. Socrú tábhachtach é seo do dhaoine i mo dháilcheantar féin agus d'an-chuid daoine sa tír iomlán.

I should like to welcome this bilateral agreement which has been awaited for years. We are aware of the inadequacies and the inequities for pensioners in our constituencies who are not eligible under the free schemes. Many United States pensioners, because of variations in the value of the dollar are worse off than many of our own pensioners. Access to the free schemes would be an advantage to them. Those in receipt of pensions here should be eligible for the benefits under the schemes to which our pensioners are entitled.

On behalf of the younger people I welcome the provision under which a temporary transfer will not be adversely affect their social security entitlements. It takes cognisance of the fact that many young people working with multi-national companies here travel for experience; it works both ways. This is a huge step in relation to such bilateral agreements and I look forward to the many other agreements the Minister hopes to sign.

I should like to ask the Minister, and his officials, to consider one or two points. As Deputy Molloy indicated, our emigrants have had tremendous success in the number of Morrison and Donnelly visas they have been able to acquire. Some of them have been in the United States illegally for many years and, unfortunately, were not within the social security system there. Will the Minister, through his counterpart in the United States, ask for an amnesty for those who have now obtained visas to buy back a number of years' rights so that they will have entitlement to full pensions at a later stage?

Can the Minister clarify whether unemployment assistance for returned emigrants could be introduced at a later stage? Unfortunately, because of the world recession, many people who have returned from the United States are ineligible for such assistance. Will the Minister consider entering into negotiations in relation to such eligibility?

I welcome this agreement which will help many of my constituents and those who missed out in the absence of such an agreement. I welcome the fact that the United States Congress has now approved the agreement and that the Minister's policy is to ensure equity in the system. I hope bureaucracy will not delay pension applications here.

Mr. McGinley

Ba mhaith liom fáiltiú roimh an comhaontú seo mar a dhein gach Teachta a labhair romham. Tá sé tábhachtach go ndéanfaí comhaontú mar seo ach is trua nár déanadh roimhe seo é. Tá an-chuid daoine ann a d'fhill ó Mheiriceá agus nach raibh ábalta tairbhe a bhaint as leasuithe a bheas ar fáil de thoradh an chomhaontaithe seo. Deán-aim comhghairdeas leis an Aire as ucht an cheist seo a leanúint ó ceapadh é. Bhí suim agam féin sa cheist agus is minic a d'fhiafraigh mé sa Teach cad é an dul chun cinn a bhí déanta sa ghnó.

Rachaidh an comhaontú seo chun tairbhe dhá dhream daoine ach go h-áirithe. Dream amháin ná iadsan a chuaigh ar imirce le blianta beaga anuas agus a raibh íocaíochtaí déanta acu fad a bhí siad fostaithe anseo. Go dtí seo ní raibh aitheantas le fáil ag a leithéad i ngeall ar íocaíochtaí a déanadh sa tír seo. Cuirfidh an comhaontú ar chomhchéim iad le daoine a chuaigh ar imirce go dtí tíortha i gComhphobal na hEorpa. Sin mar ba chóir.

Tá lúb ar lár ag baint leis an gcomh-aontú mar a dúirt an Teachta Kenny. Ní déantar soláthar ann do dhaoine a d'fhág Eire le cúig nó deich mbliana anuas agus atá ina gcónaí i Meiriceá ó shin go hain-dleathach. Cé go bhfáiltím roimh an chomhaontú ní cóir dúinn na daoine sin a ligean i ndearmad. B'fhéidir go mbeidh an tAire in ann rud éigin a dhéanamh ar a son siúd. Cé go bhfuair 50,000 acu visa le trí bliana anuas tá go leor Éireannaigh i Meiriceá go fóill atá ag obair ach nach bhfuil i dteideal íocaíochtaí a dhéanamh.

Rachaidh an comhaontú chun sochair pinsinéirí a d'fhill ó Mheiriceá agus atá anois ina gcónaí sa tír seo, cuid acu i mo dháilcheantar féin agus cuid eile ar fud an iarthair. Go dtí seo ní raibh siad i dteideal liúntais ar nós ceadúnais teilifíse agus ceadúnais leictreachais d'fháil. Mheas siad nach raibh an Stát ag caith-eamh leo mar a chaitear le saoránaigh nach ndeachaigh ar imirce. Ón gcéad lá de mhí Mheán Fómhair beidh na buntáistí sin le fáil acu.

I welcome this new bilateral agreement. The only reservation I have is that it took so long so conclude bearing in mind that it affects so many of our people who emigrated to the United States. The provisions of the agreement are already available to Irish people who have emigrated to other EC countries and it has the effect of putting our emigrants to the United States and, indeed, returned emigrants from the United States who are now pensioners, on the same footing as those who emigrated to other EC countries. As Deputy Allen mentioned no cognisance has been taken of the difficulties encountered in this area by our undocumented emigrants in the United States. Perhaps it is a matter we might deal with on another day but we should not forget their difficulties. This agreement is particularly good news for Irish pensioners who have spent their working lives in the United States and who have now returned here. I understand the Minister stated that 4,000 or 5,000 people will benefit from the agreement. It was a source of grievance to Irish citizens who had emigrated to the United States and returned home that people of the same age group and category who had returned from other countries were receiving social welfare benefits such as free travel allowance, free electricity allowance, free television licence and other benefits, but those people, because they were resident in the United States, were not able to avail of those benefits. This agreement is welcomed by returned emigrants from the United States as from 1 September 1993 they will be entitled to the same benefits as returned emigrants from other countries.

Pensioners who have returned from the United States have had a difficult time over the past few years. They suffered a drastic reduction in their income because of the fall in the value of the dollar. About five or six years ago the pound and the dollar were on a par, now 1.50 or 1.60 dollars equal 1 pound. No cognisance was taken of those pensioners' reduced income but they will now benefit from the provisions of this agreement.

A person in receipt of a non-State pension from the EC or any other country, who receives £5 over the amount of the non-contributory State pension does not qualify for the free fuel scheme. Eligibility for that scheme should be reviewed because returned emigrants from the UK or European countries whose income is £5 over the non-contributory State pension have a genuine grievance as they are not eligible for the free fuel scheme. The United States climate is much warmer than ours and people who have lived there are used to a higher temperature in their houses. When they return to this country they should be entitled to the same heat in their houses, they probably use more fuel than people who have never left this country. This is an area that should be considered. I have been interested in this agreement for a number of years and I welcome its completion as a step forward. I compliment the Minister and his predecessors who pursued this matter and it is long overdue.

Mr. Wallace

I would like to share my time with Deputy McDaid.

An Leas-Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Wallace

Like previous speakers, I also welcome this bilateral agreement between Ireland and the United States. Over the past few years I have had a number of inquiries from people, who, through no fault of their own, had to emigrate to the United States, regarding whether their Irish contributions could be used to augment their pensions. Unfortunately the answer on those occasions was that the contributions did not count. The Minister must be complimented on initiating this agreement and bringing the legislation before the House today. This bilateral agreement is probably the most important agreement on social security into which Ireland has entered since we joined the European Community in 1973. The United States currently pay approximately 6,000 pensions to US pensioners living in Ireland while the Department of Social Welfare pay over 200 pensions to Irish pensioners in the United States.

The main purpose of the agreement is to protect the pension rights of people who have worked and paid social security contributions in both Ireland and the United States. The agreement does this by allowing social security contributions paid in Ireland to be used to qualify for certian benefits in the US and vice versa. The agreement also contains important provisions for workers on temporary assignments from one country to another. These provisions contain rules as to which country's social security laws will apply in these cases.

It is important to mention the benefits covered by the agreement. In Ireland it includes benefits such as old age contributory pension, retirement pension, widows's contributory pension, invalidity pension, orphan's contributory allowances and death grant. In the United States it covers retirement benefits, survivors benefits, disability benefits and family benefits for dependants of retired or disabled workers. It is also important to outline the practical benefits of the agreement. For example, an Irish citizen who worked in Ireland and the United States and who had paid social security contributions in both countries might qualify for an Irish pension based solely on his or her social security contributions paid in Ireland, and a US pension based solely on contributions paid in the United States. Alternatively, if a person does not have sufficient contributions paid in either country he or she might qualify for a proportional Irish or US pension, or both, based on a combination of contributions in Ireland and the United States.

A further important benefit is that recipients may also qualify for free electricity, natural gas allowance, free telephone, rent allowance, free travel, free television licence or a free fuel allowance.

It is important that people are made aware of this bilateral agreement because in the past there has been criticism that people have not been sufficiently informed of their entitlements. Last week I paid tribute to the Minister and the Department for the efforts they have made over the years in relation in making people here aware of their entitlements. In welcoming this agreement it is incumbent on all of us, particularly the Minister and the Department, to ensure that people here and in the United States — the responsibility is greater on the United States Government — are made fully aware of this bilateral agreement.

Unfortunately, in the past people were unable to avail of the benefits of this new agreement which is now more important than ever because of the many emigrants availing of visas to the United States. This agreement will be of benefit to them in the future. I welcome the agreement and compliment the Minister for bringing it forward today.

Dr. McDaid

I compliment the Minister for bringing forward this agreement today. I note that most of the Deputies who spoke on this issue seem to be from the west coast down as far as Cork. I also note that three of the Deputies are from my own county of Donegal. I wonder if that signifies the proportion of people in Donegal who will benefit from this scheme. Undoubtedly, there have been many inquiries to my office in Donegal in regard to this. I was amazed to hear the Minister say that 6,000 Irish emigrants have returned. As I said a large number of them must be on the west coast.

I will not be repetitive. Everything required to be said about this agreement has been said. Deputy Allen raised the point about visas, which is certainly a bone of contention among Deputies. However, at a time when we are introducing an agreement with the United States we should not be sending bad vibes to the Embassy which might prove counterproductive for young people who apply to the Embassy for visas. I agree with Deputy Allen but now that we are entering into an agreement with the United States we should request the Embassy to be a little more sympathetic to our problems. I suggest to the Embassy that it is a thorn in the side of public representatives that we have lost the ability to represent some of our constituents. I know this privilege has been abused in the past but I ask the embassies to reconsider their position and allow public representatives to again make these representations. Individual public representatives who abuse their privilege should be blacklisted but they should not all be tarred with the one brush. This was a great asset to our constituents provided we were able to vouch for them.

Another point I wish to raise concerning this agreement is that there are many elderly Irish American citizens in the United States who are paying exorbitant medical fees for doctors' care, home nursing care and, particularly, in nursing homes. There is a good possibility that a large number of those will return home to Ireland and there is a market in that area. We have excellent nursing homes here, they are quite reasonable and provide very good medical care. As a result of this agreement those elderly people who may have thought they could never return home may now be able to do so. Nursing homes here will benefit by providing medical care for Irish citizens living in the US who want to return to Ireland. I welcome the Bill. It is a step forward and I hope it will benefit many Irish Americans in the United States.

Mr. Finucane

At the outset I compliment the Minister for Social Welfare on bringing forward this agreement. The figure of 6,100 he gave regarding the number of US pensioners here is quite significant. Indeed, the $35 million in revenue which they bring into the country is welcome.

Having listened to the Taoiseach's St. Patrick's Day greetings and having read his speech in the Official Report it strikes me that we have a very special relationship with the United States of America and, therefore, I welcome this agreement. It acknowledges that we are giving something back to the US pensioners who decide to return here. In relation to the 3,500 pensioners eligible for the free electricity scheme, that figure is reduced dramatically when we talk about the free telephone scheme, where only 1,800 people benefit. I am sure the Minister is aware that is probably due to the stringent guidelines placed on the free telephone allowance scheme. Members of the Oireachtas have made representations for people regarding the free telephone allowance but, because of regulations and red tape, they were deemed ineligible. Pensioners from the US will be eligible for some of the free schemes but may not be eligible for others due to red tape.

An earlier speaker raised the question of the cost of medical treatment in the United States. That is a well known fact but I would ask the Minister for Health to examine another aspect of this problem. If pensioners who return to Ireland apply for a medical card, as we know they are entitled to do under the Irish system, they are subject to a rigorous means test. This is in contrast to the existing policy in EC countries. An EC resident living in this country is eligible for a medical card and, equally, we have reciprocal rights within other EC countries.

I would like to think that, in addition to these new benefits and concessions which these people will be eligible for, they would also be eligible for a medical card. In recent times I have been approached by some American citizens who have asked me if they would be eligible for a medical card. I explained the rigorous means-testing we have, particularly from the point of view of domicile and whether they have purchased a house here or in the United States, or if they rent a house and how much the rent is. There is a rather punitive regime in regard to means-testing and most US citizens who come to this country would find it extremely difficult to get a medical card within our system. If we are giving it to EC citizens, possibly we could look at it in the context of US citizens to see if US citizens would be eligible.

The question of visas is a sore point with most people here. The citizens of most countries in Europe do not require a visa to go to the States, but the practice of requiring visas is still operated as far as this country is concerned. Maybe that is because of our high rate of emigration in the past. However, in recent times public representatives have had many overtures from constituents in relation to getting visas. In many cases we know the bona fides of the people who have applied are genuine, but the American Embassy have treated us rather unfavourably and are no longer tolerating representations from politicians. That is regrettable. If there is to be a new dawn in the relationships between ourselves and the USA, they must reciprocate in kind. I would like to see that matter addressed again. At least guidelines might be put down concerning contacts between Oireachtas representatives and the American Embassy. If some Deputies abuse their position, it is wrong that all of us should be punished. Certain guidelines should be laid down, and if a Deputy does not conform to them let him not be eligible to make representations in the future.

I welcome the agreement and would like the Minister to look at the medical card aspect of it because it is an area that would attract a lot of goodwill.

Mr. Gallagher

(Laoighis-Offaly): I would like to share my time with Deputy Kavanagh, if that is agreed.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Gallagher

(Laoighis-Offaly): This agreement between Ireland and the United States is the latest in a series of agreements that have been concluded in recent years and I compliment the Minister on having concluded it.

People of my own age and younger do not worry about pensions and social welfare entitlements at an early stage in their working career. However, it is to be welcomed that these people will now have an increased level of protection for the future, for times when their incomes may not be as secure as they are now and when they may need to claim social security either in the country in which they are now resident or when they return here. On behalf of the people who will, in time, benefit significantly under this agreement, I want to compliment the Minister on his conclusion of it.

On the coming into effect of this agreement, approximately 400 extra people who have returned to Ireland from the United States will be entitled to some form of social security benefit. I note also that 200 Irish people are currently in receipt of benefit in the US. Could the Minister elaborate on the expected number of Irish people who will come into benefit in the United States within a short time of this agreement coming into effect?

I am glad that the arrangements in regard to free electricity, free television licence and telephone rental will also be extended under this agreement. I have come across a number of returned Irish emigrants who cannot avail of the benefits which are available to Irish social welfare recipients and these people feel very disadvantaged because of the treatment they receive compared to people who have accumulated benefits in Ireland. I know these people will particularly welcome this extension.

I am also happy that the claiming arrangements under this scheme will be simple. We are all very much aware of the difficulties people have in making claims under the social welfare system. It would be inconvenient if people had to deal with two national administrations. I am glad therefore that the Department of Social Welfare here will take the ball and run with it and deal with the administration of social security in the United States when a claim is made.

I would like to ask the Minister for some further information on this matter. The social security system in the United States is not as well developed as it is here and I am concerned that people who may have accumulated entitlements to certain benefits in Ireland while working here and who then move to the United States may not be able to carry that entitlement with them. Can the Minister say what Irish entitlements remain uncovered under this agreement and if anything can be done to improve the situation so that people will not find in five or ten years' time that they are not covered for something they thought they were covered for.

I would like to thank the Minister on behalf of younger people who in the course of their working lives will be able to build up entitlements to benefits in this country and in other countries in which they work, particularly the United States. With the implementation of the Donnelly and Morrison programmes, people will be in a much better position to register for social security in the United States and build up credits which will benefit them in later years. On behalf of those people who will benefit in the years to come, I would like to thank the Minister for concluding this agreement and hope that he will be able to respond to the questions I have raised.

Mr. Kavanagh

I would like to thank Deputy Gallagher for sharing his time. I want to join in the total welcome of the House for this measure. The Minister has concluded several of these agreements and he is to be particularly complimented on this. Deputy McDaid seemed to regard this as a purely west of Ireland or south of Ireland problem. Most of the citizens who have had to emigrate from the eastern part of the country took the shorter boat to Britain and, in latter years, to Europe. Nevertheless, we do have a number of people in the east who will benefit from this measure. In the mood of the House at the moment, I had better declare a small interest in this. I do have a brother who is at present involved in employment in New York and maybe he will make the decision to come back when he hears of this new arrangement, although, judging from his status over there, I doubt if he will be asking for a pension.

This agreement will at least accord some measure of rights to people who have spent much of their working life in America, not through choice, but because of the economic position here. There is a general perception that all Irish-Americans are wealthy and that they stay in big hotels in the west when they visit. However, my view in that regard changed when as Minister for Tourism and Transport, I was trying to promote the tourist industry. During that time I met many Irish people in New York and elsewhere who were annoyed that we should seek contributions from them and request them to join golf clubs and so on for their occasional visits to the country. That type of tourism promotion is important but we also have responsibility for those people if they retire here or return if our economic position improves. People who choose to return and give their knowledge and expertise to our community are entitled to certain rights. The Minister stated that he has got a good deal for Ireland, but we should also be generous in the other direction. He is doing that in accepting that not alone should this agreement benefit pensioners who return here but that it is our responsibility to improve those pensions if necessary. I ask the Minister to include in this agreement widows of Irish emigrants who have qualifications here and in America but who were born in America and wish to live here. Such persons should also benefit under this agreement, but that may be provided for.

During election campaigns particularly, one regularly meets pensioners who live here and who have American citizenship. I do not know if their circumstances will be altered under this arrangement, but they are unwilling to exercise their vote franchise because of a fear of losing their pension rights or, conversely, their American citizenship. That is an old chestnut that needs to be examined. This may not be the case, but some people believe that if they are granted citizenship after working for many years in the United States they forfeit all rights here, particularly in regard to voting in Dáil and European elections. They may be entitled to cast their franchise in local elections and I ask the Minister to clarify that matter. Such people should be made aware of their entitlements in that regard as well as their benefits under the pension schemes which will operate here and in the United States.

I thank the Minister for introducing this measure. I am sure many Members have friends in America. We are inclined to believe they are wealthy and would never need to avail of Social Welfare benefits and so on here, but that is not the case. It is necessary to stabilise the position between the two countries as the recent currency fluctuations cost many returned emigrants a great deal of money in the past year or two. I accept that there are swings and roundabouts in this area. Nevertheless, if this measure can be of assistance when one's income is diminished because of the economic position between one country and another, it is welcome and I commend the Minister for introducing it.

Minister for Social Welfare (Dr. Woods)

I thank Deputies from both sides for their interest in this important agreement between Ireland and the United States of America. When we started work in 1989, we first concluded an agreement with Austria with little or no delay. We then started work on the agreement with the United States which was much more complex because of the vast number of Irish people involved on both sides which is expected to increase in future. This agreement will have a huge impact and major implications for those people and, consequently, it has taken somewhat longer than expected to complete. In 1991, I made special efforts, particularly during the summer, at diplomatic level to bring this agreement to a conclusion because of the many complex and technical issues delaying its implementation. At that stage I received great co-operation from the officials in the American Embassy here, I emphasise that because questions were raised in this House in relation to visas. That broke the log-jam and led to the signing of the agreement in early 1992.

Deputy Molloy and others asked why it has taken so long to implement the agreement. It involved a complicated and time consuming technical procedure in the United States. The agreement was signed in April last year, but there is a requirement in US social security law that before a signed agreement can be enforced, the President of the United States must transmit it to Congress for a period during which at least one House of the Congress has been in session on each of 60 days. This period generally encompasses about four to five calendar months. If the 60 day session period is not completed during one Congress the entire period must start again in the new Congress. The previous Congress in the United States adjourned on 2 October 1992 and this meant that the full 60 days session period had not been completed in respect of the agreement. It had, therefore, to be resubmitted in January 1993 and a 60 day requirement has now been finalised. Following this both sides must exchange diplomatic notes certifying that each has completed all the legal and constitutional requirements. The agreement then becomes operative on the first day of the third month following the month in which these notes are exchanged. As expected, the agreement will be in operation by 1 September this year. We have just received word that Congress has finally accepted the agreement.

Deputy Molloy expressed some criticism of me in that regard, but I assure him that my officials, my predecessors and I worked hard to ensure that this agreement would be concluded. The signing of this agreement will be a start in supplying a network of agreements and supports for emigrants.

Deputy Gallagher stated that young people are not very concerned about pension rights. That is true but, of course, such rights are important and young people will realise that later in life. Deputy Gallagher raised questions about the value of the simplified claiming and the Irish entitlements which are not covered by the agreement. It is simpler to state what is covered and that includes the old age contributory pension, retirement pensions, the widow's contributory pension, the invalidity pension, the orphan's contributory allowance and the death grant. Other items are not covered, particularly short term benefits such as unemployment. That question was raised also by another Deputy. The difficulty is that unemployment insurance is a federal state co-ordinated programme administered by each state under national guidelines. Each state collects contributions, maintains wage records, takes claims, determines eligibility and pays benefits. Therefore, the states are not in a position to enter into an agreement on unemployment payments.

Deputy Allen welcomed the agreement and requested that we be mindful of the position of people who are illegal. I am very conscious of the position of these people and I will bear in mind the points made by Deputies in this regard. He also referred to the one contribution rule. I want to make it clear that the one contribution rule has nothing to do with this agreement; it is an EC rule, not an Irish rule. We do not like this rule and are opposed to it, but we understand it — it prevents people from travelling to another country to claim unemployment payments there. Obviously, there were objections to this practice and consequently the one contribution rule was introduced. Ireland has argued that the one contribution rule should be waived in the case of countries with close ties, for example, Ireland and England, where people regularly come and go. We make that argument all the time. While we have not succeeded in our request, we will continue to argue this point. As Deputy Allen said, it is ridiculous that a person from across the water has to get one week's work here before the contributions he has paid come into operation. As I said, the one contribution rule is an EC rule and has no effect on this agreement; it does not arise in this case.

Given that the House supports the motion, I should say that I took the liberty of preparing a fact sheet which I can distribute to Deputies after the debate. This sheet contains all the facts in relation to the agreement. If they wish, Deputies can take this sheet home with them.

Mr. Allen

That is confidence for you.

Dr. Woods

I waited to see if the Whips supported the motion. This is why it is so important that we stick by what has been agreed by the Whips. The sheet was printed on the basis of the Whips agreement.

Deputy Kenny referred to the length of the negotiations. I have covered that point. Once again, I thank the officials involved in the preparation of this agreement. Deputy Molloy referred to the pensions board report. I expect that report to be published during the summer. This report will deal with the outstanding issues which have to be addressed. The Deputy asked that consideration be given to pro rata pensions. The Deputy may be aware that I have already introduced pro rata pensions in certain areas. The pensions board will look at this question. The Deputy asked why it has taken since last April to introduce this motion. I have explained the reasons for this and I trust that the Deputy will note these.

Deputy Tony Killeen welcomed the protection afforded to occupational pensions. This very important protection was contained in the Social Welfare Act. I will be seeking in the negotiations to extend that protection to occupational pensions in other countries.

Deputy Mary Coughlan stressed the importance of the Morrison visas. She referred to those people who are undocumented and not covered as yet. She also referred to the importance of the agreement to County Donegal. I believe that the numbers referred to are under-estimates rather than overestimates. However, time will tell if this is the case.

Deputy McGinley welcomed the agreement. He was concerned about the free fuel scheme. The position in relation to the free fuel scheme and the extra benefits is that the conditions which apply to Irish people apply to people who receive pensions from another country. This was a major development. I got Government agreement to the extension of the extra benefits to people with pensions from another country. This need not have been done; it is not done in other countries. This also applies to the agreement as it stands at present.

Deputy Dan Wallace welcomed the agreement and highlighted its effect on people in Cork. When I was in Boston recently I met Cork people who are very involved with emigrant groups there. This agreement affects a number of Cork people at present and will affect large numbers in the future. The Deputy suggested that we should make the agreement as widely known as possible. I will certainly do what I can in this regard. The fact sheet is a first step in this process. I trust Deputies will use local radio to inform the public about the agreement.

Mr. Allen

He is doing a drop-in tonight.

Dr. Woods

That is good news. Deputy McDaid stressed the importance of the agreement for County Donegal. I agree with the points made by the Deputy in this respect. Having attended the St. Patrick's Day celebrations in New York, I realise a large number of Donegal people are living in New York. They make up the largest group of Irish people living there. Very large numbers of people from Donegal, Mayo and the west coast generally will be affected by the agreement.

With regard to the Embassy, some of the issues which have been raised can be taken up with the new American Ambassador, Jean Kennedy-Smith.

Deputy Pat Gallagher referred to the position of young people and the need for a simplified claim system. The system will be a simple one and both sides will pursue claims on behalf of their own people.

Deputy Kavanagh claimed that there was general welcome for the agreement. He referred to people born in one country who spent time in the other country. The key factor in this regard is the attachment to the social security system in a country. A person who has been attached to the American social security system will be covered here and a person who has been attached to the Irish social security system will be covered in America. This point is covered in article 3 of the agreement — a copy of the agreement is available in the Dáil Library — which states: "The Agreement shall apply to any person who is or has been subject to the laws of one or both of the contracting States and to the dependants and survivors of such a person within the meaning of the applicable laws of either State." Therefore, there is no need for any concern in this regard. Once a person has been attached to a social security system in one country they will be covered in the other country.

This is a very welcome agreement and I am happy to have been able to bring it before the House at this time. I thank the House for the welcome it has given to the agreement.

Question put and agreed to.