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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 May 1993

Vol. 430 No. 4

Order of Business.

It is proposed to take Nos. 3 and 4.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that:

1. Business shall be interrupted at 4.45 p.m. today.

2. The proceedings on the Second Stage of No. 3, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 4.45 p.m.

3. In the case of the resumed debate on No. 4, the speech of each Member called on shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case.

I would also add that I would like the Whips to come together after the Order of Business to arrange for a statement to be made by the Minister for Finance in relation to the sale of Greencore shares, which, I am sure, is of concern to the House.

May I now ask if the proposal that business be interrupted at 4.45 p.m. this evening is satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Is it agreed that the proceedings on Second Stage of No. 3 shall conclude at 4.45 p.m. today? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with item No. 4, the resumed budget debate, satisfactory and agreed?

Arising from the budget debate, will it be possible for this House, in view of the budgetary implications of the matter raised by the Taoiseach, to debate rather than simply have statements on the sale of Greencore shares? It is not satisfactory that one is not entitled to have answers to questions in the Statements procedure. This House was assured by the Minister for Finance as recently as 36 hours ago that he was completely satisfied with the sale of Greencore shares and he congratulated the stockbrokers on how they had handled the matter.

It is wrong to anticipate discussion on the matter now. I gather the Whips will be considering the matter, as outlined by the Taoiseach.

On a point of order, there is substance in the matter being raised by Deputy Cox in that there are very serious questions that must be answered about the credibility——

That is not a point of order.

The point I am making is that there should be an opportunity to have some element of question and answer in this debate as opposed to statements which would not shed full light on what has happened.

I am sure the points of view expressed by Deputies will be taken into account.

I have a Private Notice Question tabled on this matter, and I am sure other Deputies have also. I take it the Taoiseach is leaving open the opportunity for the Whips to agree statements. It is a serious matter that the Government entrusted with running the country cannot even manage to sell off bits of it efficiently. I am sure——

Let us not anticipate debate on the matter now.

If there are Private Notice Questions the Minister for Finance will be happy to take them if that is what is agreed. We do not mind which way it is taken.

I was trying to obey your ruling, Sir, that we should not interrupt when you were in the middle of reading out the Order of Business, but others got in ahead of me. I welcome the fact that at last the Taoiseach has agreed at last to allow statements in the House. I hope that is the agreement that will be arrived at between the meetings of the Whips. I agree with other Deputies that a straight statement form of debate will not be sufficient to investigate the gravity of the situation vis-á-vis the suspension of the Greencore shares.

Deputy Owen, I must dissuade Members from debating the matter now.

Can the Taoiseach tell the House if in the instructions he will give to the Whips he will allow that point to be made?

There is an indication that the House will consider the matter today and that must be adequate for the time being.

Could I further ask the Taoiseach if when he comes into the House to make his statement he can indicate to the House whether he has actually asked the Minister for Finance to consider his position as Minister for Finance——

These are matters that can be raised at the appropriate time.

——as would happen in any other country if a matter of this gravity occurred where negligence and incompetence——

Wait for the facts.

The facts must make very bad news.

The time has come for the Minister for Finance to face the music of his own incompetence and negligence.

Deputy Owen may not continue.

The facts make it even worse.

That is what the Deputy thinks.

May I clarify, before we agree to this arrangement, that we are not being asked to choose between questions or statements, that we will have an opportunity to question the Minister if we agree to statements being taken today? It is not a matter of either or.

I have not put any restrictions on what type of debate the Whips will agree to; it is a matter for all parties to agree. If Deputy Rabbitte has tabled a Private Notice Question, we are not trying to sidestep it; he is free to ask his questions on it. So too is everybody who has tabled a Private Notice Question. I cannot for the life of me understand what Deputy Owen is trying to insinuate when she said that at last the Taoiseach had agreed. The Taoiseach was not even asked. He came into the House and offered to arrange for a statement to be made by the Minister for Finance.

On a point of order——

Deputy O'Malley rose.

Forget about the "at last" business; it does not arise as far as I am concerned.

Let us have order. I am calling Deputy O'Malley.

The only satisfactory way of dealing with a matter like this is by way of a debate. If statements are made here, the opening statement will be made by the Minister of Finance. He will give his version of events. Other Deputies will then speak. They will raise various questions, but there will not be a reply by the Minister for Finance to those questions. That is not satisfactory. It is not possible to elucidate fully——

I do not want a further reference to this matter.

What is the procedure for this debate?

The Whips will meet.

I am afraid their hands might be tied before they commence their discussions. The Taoiseach intervened a couple of times to say that if Private Notice Questions are tabled, he would be willing to take them. My concern is that if, when the Whips meet, Private Notice Questions are down that will be the only method of elucidation. I want to be sure that the Whips will be able to allow both to take place.

I will have no further reference to the matter. Deputy Harte, on a different matter.

It is on exactly the same matter. I concur with Deputy O'Malley. During your service in this House, you have seen it move from being a debating Chamber to one where Deputies come in and read out statements. Deputies on the Opposition side of this House find it unsatisfactory that matters are dealt with by way of statements.

The views of Members in this matter will doubtless be taken into account and ventilated by the respective Whips.

Further to the item I raised yesterday morning on the Order of Business, will you tell me if anything can be done if the Taoiseach or a Minister does not want to answer a question? Do you have any powers to see that they answer questions?

The Deputy knows full well that the Chair has no power to compel any Member of this House.

Is there any method of appeal?

If the Deputy feels strongly about the matter he might have it referred by his colleagues to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

When will that meet?

I will convene a meeting quite readily at any time if there is proven cause.

Will you convene a meeting immediately to discuss that very point?

Deputy, Members of your party are on that committee.

You are the Chairman.

I am Chairman.

Will you convene a meeting?

I have had no such request from the members of the committee.

That is not true.

I will ask them to ask you, if that is the way it should be done.

In view of the statement by the Minister of State at the Department of the Marine in regard to the escape of the eight million salmon, will the Taoiseach advise us if there has been any success in recapturing these?

(Interruptions.)

This is very serious.

Is there any reward for finding them?

Is it true that Davy Stockbrokers have been hired in the matter?

Please, Deputy Barrett, I rather enjoyed the bit of humour you have added to our proceedings, nevertheless it is not in order.

I have no doubt that the Minister of State, Deputy O'Sullivan, will capture these elusive salmon. I wish to inform you, Sir, that at this very moment a letter is being sent to your office requesting you, as Chairman, to convene a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges in the near future.

On the matter of the avoidance of answering questions.

In view of the events in the House of Commons last night when the British Government was defeated on the Maastricht Bill and in view of the prolonged uncertainty which will ensue, will the Government make a statement on the Maastricht Treaty because we do not know where we stand in relation to it?

This important matter should be raised at the appropriate time in accordance with our procedures. It is not relevant now.

It is of the greatest relevance to this country. It only arose during the night and it should be dealt with urgently by the Government.

There are many ways of dealing with that matter, Deputy O'Malley.

Will the Taoiseach state what steps he intends to take to discard the "tricky" image of members of his party——

I will hear a final question, a relevant one I hope, from Deputy Rabbitte.

What is the position with regard to the miscarriage of justice Bill? In regard to yesterday's controversy, is it the Taoiseach's intention to publish a new schedule of legislation having regard to the wafer thin schedule with which we are dealing and the fact that we have pirate stuff from the other House to keep this House going?

If the Deputy has a specific matter to raise, that is all right, but I am not aware of it.

What about the miscarriage of justice Bill?

It is in the course of preparation, a Cheann Comhairle.

In view of the private briefing that the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party got vis-á-vis the disbursement of lottery funds, is the Taoiseach satisfied that the methods to be used this year by his Government are in keeping with the legislation? Will £3 million only be made available for youth and sport? I recognise that he is no longer young and probably does not participate in sport, but many young people in this country do.

The figure is £17 million and increasing and not £3 million as reported.

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