Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 May 1993

Vol. 430 No. 4

Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Bill, 1993: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Finucane:

When the cap was introduced on RTE advertising there was much concern about the potential loss of jobs. Under this legislation the cap is being abolished and RTE will be free to increase its advertising. It is obvious that, despite the establishment of local radio stations in 1989, RTE still has a monopoly in broadcasting. This is due in part to the fact that the television licence goes towards RTE funding. People who do not pay their television licence on time receive very trenchant reminders that they are guilty of an offence.

Let us contrast the position of RTE with that of local radio stations which were established in 1989. Public representatives appreciate these stations and wish them success. It is with a certain degree of sadness that we see many of them running on a shoestring. Quite a few are running at a loss, with overall losses amounting to about £10 million. Since these losses occurred during the period of the imposition of the cap on RTE I would pose the question: what is likely to happen now that RTE is free to increase its advertising? Will that have a serious impact on local radio stations? I believe it will. The body representing local radio stations has requested a meeting with public representatives next week to highlight the effect on local radio stations of the abolition of the cap.

This legislation will also have an impact on provincial newspapers, who find it very difficult to compete for advertising space, and in many cases advertising is the lifeblood of these newspapers. Local radio stations and provincial newspapers provide an effective service for local communities. In hindsight perhaps too many local radio stations were set up in relation to the size of the country and the market for broadcasting. In County Limerick, which is not a very large county, people have access to Clare Radio, Kerry Radio, Limerick Radio and Cork County Sound. Depending on one's geographical position one has access to a wide variety of services. All these stations are competing for their share of the market.

I welcome the considerable increase in market penetration by local radio stations in the last few years. These stations have brought politics to a higher plane in that politicians and local authority representatives use local radio as a vehicle to present their ideas and policies. This has helped to enhance the status of public representatives, whose work in many cases does not receive true recognition. This Bill will have a profound impact on local radio stations and provincial newspapers unless some new method of financing is introduced for them. Perhaps they should be given a certain amount from the television licence fee. It is wrong that this revenue goes exclusively to RTE who increased their advertising space and continued to make a good profit in spite of the cap on advertising. The Minister should address the consequent effects of this legislation on provincial newspapers and local radio stations.

The introduction of broadcasting of Oireachtas debates has enchanced the status of the Dáil and the Seanad. The number of people who watch the Oireachtas proceedings is surprising. Even though this programme has been broadcast for only a short period of time, it is a very good, balanced programme. As my colleague, Deputy Deasy, quite rightly stated earlier, the cut and thrust of political debates is sadly missing from RTE broadcasts. "Oireachtas Report" is a succession of statements. If anybody watches reports from the House of Commons or the House of Lords, the proceedings are projected by the media in a far more exciting way which generates interest. As Deputy Deasy said, there should for instance be a little more broadcasting of Question Time in order to capture the excitement and vibrancy of the Oireachtas and enhance its status among the general public.

RTE has been criticised because of its high preponderance of people linked to certain parties. I do not know how that impacts on providing a television service and what sort of bias it gives to political parties.

A positive aspect of the Bill is that the Minister has directed RTE to make specific amounts available to commission programmes from independent television producers. The Minister has been known for his interest in arts and culture, so I imagine that stipulation is his brainchild to try to generate more interest and make that sector more profitable, because independent productions are up against a potential giant in RTE.

I would like the Minister to look at the impact the changes envisaged by this Bill will have on local radio and provincial newspapers. These sectors are finding things increasingly difficult. The national newspapers, who are competing for advertising space, are equally concerned. Television advertisements during prime time are bound to have more impact than advertisements in the national newspapers. The loss of revenue to newspapers was highlighted recently by the increased cost of the national newspapers. One now must pay £1 for a Sunday newspaper and soon the dailies and local newspapers will cost as much. That encourages the importation of small tabloid newspapers from England which might not be as newsworthy for the Irish public. Sales of these papers are increasing because of the price. We often think that our political message is getting through to the people, but that may not necessarily be the case. Many of them cannot afford to buy a daily Irish newspaper and are buying English newspapers, which do not necessarily highlight Irish news.

The direction of the Bill with regard to commercial productions is welcome. Although this Bill may appear small, it will have a profound impact on many other areas of the media such as local radio and provincial and national newspapers.

Dr. Upton:

Like my colleagues, I am pleased that the Minister is here. This is the first time I have spoken here in the presence of the Minister fulfilling his function as Minister. I am delighted that he got this portfolio and I have no doubt that other speakers are right about him. I join in the sentiments expressed in congratulating the Minister and wishing him well. I hope his work as a Minister will not diminish his activities as a poet.

I particularly welcome the removal of the cap from RTE. Its introduction was a disaster and there is little doubt that jobs were lost in RTE as a result of that foolish move. Money which would have been spent on advertising in RTE was spent elsewhere, particularly in advertising on Ulster Television. It was a pity that in 1990 the Government did not listen to the Labour Party. I can still clearly see the expression on the face of the Minister for Communications as he sat in the Seanad, his eyes fixed on the clock over the door, pondering his imprisonment there until the end of the debate, which went on and on. The cap was introduced against the wishes of the people. If the cap had not been removed, about 500 more jobs would have been lost as a consequence of persisting with this policy.

The proposals in this Bill will mean that money spent on independent production by RTE will increase from £2.75 million in 1992 to £5 million in 1994 and will reach a figure of £12.5 million in 1998, or 20 per cent of television expenditure in that year, whichever is the greater. Nobody can have any doubt that this marks a significant change in the way in which resources available to RTE are managed. The foreign companies from which RTE buys programmes are excluded from the definition of independent television production in the Bill. That in effect means that as far as RTE is concerned there is no backdoor way around the provisions of the Bill.

The effects of the proposals on RTE are not at all clear. Last year RTE made a fairly modest profit in the order of £3 million or £4 million. The proposals in the Bill have to be considered in the context of the likely development in Irish television broadcasting in the next few years. There is now a clear commitment to provide a television service for Irish-speaking people at an initial cost of £20 million with a subsequent cost of the order of £15 million a year at present day prices. By any standards this is a large sum of money. The provision of this amount of money will inevitably have consequences for RTE. The source of this money is somewhat unclear. It appears that some of the money will be obtained from the European Community, some from the lottery and some from RTE. The detail of the amounts of money from each of these agencies has not been spelt out. One way or the other, there will be an increased drain on RTE resources for the provision of this service. While it is a worthwhile service, it has implications in relation to how RTE will operate. It will undoubtedly increase the pressure on the capacity of RTE to make programmes within the service. I do not share the views expressed to the effect that RTE will just be a transmitting service, but the provisions of this Bill will create some pressures on RTE's capacity to produce programmes within the organisation. The effect of all this in relation to standards has not been determined. Undoubtedly the provision of Teilifís na Gaeltachta will create an added burden on the station. It is difficult to define standards because in many ways they are in the eye of the beholder.

I welcome the provision in the Bill which provides for an annual review of how it is working. This means that if changes need to be made then the capacity is there to highlight them and set the basis on which they can be made. There is no doubt that this Bill presents significant challenges for RTE and a number of challenges for the local radio stations. These stations say that the effect of the Bill will be to enable RTE to compete more effectively against them and, indeed, many of these stations are struggling to survive. I doubt if anyone would want to make the case that these stations do not provide an excellent service, at least in some aspects of their activities, with limited resources. Obviously much of their activity is made up of the straightforward playing of music, which anyone could do. In relation to their news coverage and some community functions they provide a very useful service. They also provide the type of service which RTE simply cannot hope to provide because of the diversity and the size of the audience which RTE caters for.

Stations such as Clare FM can interrupt music programmes to provide the results of junior football matches in which there is considerable interest. Certainly it would not be possible for RTE to provide that type of service. Similarly, Clare FM can provide detailed coverage of proceedings in the local county council and in the urban district council. RTE would not be able to sustain that type of facility because it would have only a minority interest concentrated in one small part of the country. I am sure the other local stations provide a similar type service. Indeed, some of the Dublin local radio stations provide a very useful forum for debate. Even when debates take place late at night many people ring up these programmes to air their point of view on various controversial topics. Nobody can argue that these stations do not provide a public service broadcasting facility. Some recognition must be given to that fact. It could be argued that if public service broadcasting is provided and if it is worthy of support, then that support should be available regardless of the source from which the broadcasting facility comes.

I am pleased that the Minister is engaged in discussions with the local radio stations and has made some proposals. I understand the stations have made some counter proposals to the Minister. I look forward to a fruitful conclusion to that debate.

The neglect of community radio by the Independent Radio and Television Commission is no longer defensible. There is a case to be made for providing communities with the capacity to go ahead and establish community radio stations. That would be a worthwhile development and I hope some progress will be made in relation to this matter in the near future. Problems will arise for the newspaper industry arising from increased competition for advertising and so on. I am not sure whether there is any easy answer to these difficulties but it is true that some of the provincial newspapers are experiencing much difficulty in trying to survive. In part, those difficulties are related to the fact that the population in many rural areas is diminishing. When that happens the capacity to generate finance from advertising diminishes which in turn creates difficulties.

Many of the local stations experience difficulties because of the size of the audience they serve. I recall a debate on this topic in the Seanad, during the last Government, when Senator Donie Cassidy referred to the minimum audience size of a viable local radio station being of the order of one million people. I have many disagreements with Senator Cassidy but I would defer to his expertise in the area of broadcasting and communications. I sincerely hope he is wrong but I would be cautious about saying that, given the success he has had in that business over many years. If that is true, it raises very serious questions in relation to the viability of many of the stations which are now up and running.

RTE faces very significant competition from Ulster Television. The introduction of the cap diverted something of the order of £2 million to £3 million in advertising revenue away from RTE to Ulster Tele-Television. I understand Ulster Television has in the order of one million viewers in the Republic. That is a very important market and it amounts to about two-thirds of the RTE audience. We need to be very careful in relation to the effect of any changes made in our broadcasting legislation and how they will affect the balance of audience size between Ulster Television and RTE. RTE is obliged to provide programmes for minority interests and so on and in many ways that is a worthwhile and desirable service. At the same time we have to bear in mind that there may well be a side effect which will diminish the total audience available to RTE, diminish the advertising pool and create a number of very serious knock on problems for RTE. One of the great success stories of RTE is the extent to which it has survived competition during the past 15 to 20 years. Since Ulster Television, BBC and so on became available to most people in Ireland RTE has met that challenge very well. Sky Television presents a very significant challenge, even if it is centred on some minority audience.

A few points were raised by other speakers to which I should like to allude. Deputy Deasy referred to the desirability of televising all the proceedings of the Dáil live. In many ways that is a desirable suggestion. I would remind the House that we experienced this phenomenon for three hours in the Seanad when television broadcasting of the Seanad was introduced. It gave rise to a unique change in behaviour of the Senators. Out of the 60 Senators, as many as 47 rose to address the Cathaoirleach and ask whether it would be in order, on the Order of Business, to raise the question of their favourite pothole, housing scheme or whatever else they were involved in locally at the time. I would hope if this House is televised live that we would not go down the road followed in the Seanad on that afternoon.

The whole phenomena of broadcasting and media has very important consequences for the way politicians behave. Politicians now do media courses to improve their presentation. In many of these courses the emphasis is on presentation rather than on content and that is understandable. A considerable amount of what is said by politicians is, to use the cliché, "media driven". Politicians now speak because they sense an opportunity for media coverage. In many ways that gives rise to distortion because what is being said is designed, to some extent, for media coverage rather than because it has an intrinsic merit. That is an unfortunate distortion that we will have to live with.

Deputy Finucane is right when he speaks of the absence of the cut and thrust of politics in the Oireachtas reports. This is not a reflection on the way the Oireachtas report is presented. What we see is very much set piece stuff. Politicians come in and read scripts which have been written by third parties. What we are seeing is the concept of the politician as an actor, and this gives rise to questions about ethics. In many other spheres of life that sort of behaviour might be regarded as something approximating to plagiarism. I do not know that it is correct to go quite that far. However, if somebody is to read a script which has been written for him and which, in some cases, has been handed to him on his way into this House, it might not be out of place to make some acknowledgement of the person who wrote the script. It is only fair that the public be aware of what is happening rather than be given the impression that politicians think these speeches up themselves, when in some cases they are reading what has been scripted for them by somebody else.

The Bill is limited in its scope. I do not mean that as a criticism of it. It sets out to address a certain topic. I welcome the fact that the cap on advertising has been removed from RTE. However, I want to sound a note of caution as to the effect this Bill may have on programme making and jobs in RTE. I am happy there is scope to study how this Bill is affecting these matters and to make changes if necessary.

Mr. Foley:

I wish to share my time with my colleague, Deputy Killeen.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Browne,

Carlow-Kilkenny): Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Foley:

Like the previous speaker I wish to congratulate Deputy Michael D. Higgins on his appointment as Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht and I wish him well. I have no doubt he will make a tremendous sucess of it. I also welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, and congratulate him on his reappointment to this portfolio.

I congratulate the Minister on bringing forward this very important Bill. I would like to quote from his opening statement which was:

The Programme for Partnership Government on broadcasting states:

Our policy will be to ensure that Irish TV and Radio Programming is of the highest quality and that it remains the preferred choice of a majority of Irish viewers by:

—Repeal of the "cap" contained in the 1990 Broadcasting Act, thus enabling RTE to improve the range and quality of the public service broadcasting that it can offer to the Irish public;

—Provision for access to broadcasting for the independent sector, thus enabling them to increase output and jobs in the audiovisual industry and giving them a firm home base to enable them to compete internationally;

I also welcome the fact that the Minister is in discussions with local radio representatives. I wonder how this Bill will affect independent local radio. Legal local radio only started in 1989. Since then stations have progressed steadily to a position where today local radio listenership has surpassed Radio 1 listenership, and it has almost twice the listenership of 2 FM.

This success is due to hard work, commitment and considerable financial investment. Success is also due in no small part to their ability to deliver community broadcasting in every sense. They have shown how local radio services can enable people to communicate with their community and we, as public representatives, will appreciate this more than most.

They now have a difficulty. The industry has losses of £10 million and they are deeply concerned that their problems will worsen after the passing of the Broadcasting Bill. This could deal a crippling blow to the young local broadcasting sector with the loss of jobs and maybe the loss of local stations. They are at a crossroads and need help. They are asking that a proportion of the licence fee should be diverted to provide services which would assist independent local radio. This could be administered through a separate authority or through the Independent Radio and Television Commission.

Some of the services they are seeking include a full national and international news service, and the taking into public control of local radio transmission services. I have no doubt that the Minister will take this on board.

Our national broadcasting organisation, Radio Telefís Éireann, has a very important role to play in the social and cultural life of our nation. It should inform, stimulate and reflect the concerns of this country. It should hold up a mirror to the nation showing us who we are and where we are going as we head into the twenty-first century. It offers us a lens through which we can view the development of our country.

RTE is not the only such forum in Ireland and we must ensure that the correct balance is maintained between our national media and our local and provincial media. Ideally the relationship between them should be complementary. This is the balance to which we should aspire.

I am keenly aware of the importance of the provincial media to people in the various regions. Local newspapers in particular have an invaluable role to play. They chronicle the growth and development of the regions they represent and in doing so help bind these communities together, providing them with a forum for communication. These papers provide a variety of important functions. They act as marketplace, social forum and most important as a source of news and views concerning the region and its communities — news and views that do not concern the national media. Essentially the provincial newspapers have a vital role to play in maintaining and reflecting the special and separate identity of the regions of Ireland.

These provincial papers have to exist in an increasingly difficult commercial atmosphere. They face aggressive competition from a variety of sources for the advertising revenue they need to sustain themselves, not least from the national media. I would be greatly disturbed if the coming years saw the gradual erosion of our provincial newspapers. For this reason I would like to place on the record my reservations concerning some of the provisions of the new Broadcasting Bill.

The Minister has outlined his reasons for removing the advertising cap on RTE. However, I would like to sound a note of caution. In doing so he may well cause considerable damage to our provincial papers. In an increasingly competitive atmosphere these papers will struggle for advertising revenue with rivals who command considerable power. Principal among these is RTE.

RTE has the national broadcasting monopoly in Ireland. To a large degree it is protected from the rigours of competition by its monolithic position and the fact it is supported by a public licence fee. No such subventions are available to the provincial press and for that reason I believe that the Minister has adopted a somewhat one-sided approach. In doing so he has ignored the very real difficulties faced by local papers. Regrettably he seems to be somewhat insensitive to the great social, commercial and cultural contribution made by these papers to communities all around the country. I would press on him the need to ensure that these papers are not muscled out by larger competitors and that he take this factor into account in all his future considerations in this area.

I would like to give a cautious welcome to the new Bill's provisions regarding the independent broadcasting sector. These provisions have the potential to generate much needed employment in this area. This sector has tremendous growth potential. There are far too many bought-in foreign programmes on our screens, often of shoddy quality. If we are to replace this with quality national programming then our independent broadcasting companies need a guaranteed domestic base, through RTE services, in order to prosper and develop. Therefore I welcome the Bill's provision that RTE must make specific amounts of money available in each financial year for programmes commissioned from the independent television production sector.

My reservation about this provision is not in regard to the principle behind it but what its implications might be. I would not like to see an independent sector that is Dublin-centred. Independent broadcasting should reflect the diversity of views and beliefs that make up our country. For that reason I look forward to an independent production sector that is widely spread geographically — a video production company in Tralee, a film editing company in Drogheda etc. In this way the independent sector can contribute to the broader social life of this country. This is a healthier situation than the creation of another Dublin-based media concentration.

Essentially, this Bill is a curate's egg. There is much to welcome, but at the same time I have reservations about some of its provisions, particularly the lifting of the cap on RTE. The Minister should watch the progress of this Bill and I have no doubt he will. He should not hesitate to reform it at some time in the future if it has the negative effects on the provincial newspapers to which I referred. I commend the Bill to the House.

Mr. Killeen:

I commend the Minister for the alacrity with which he presented this Bill to the House and I congratulate him on his elevation to Cabinet status.

I am delighted the Minister made provision for the expenditure of specific amounts on the commissioning of programmes from the independent television sector. The cap on RTE introduced in the 1990 Bill did not have the effect envisaged and its removal at this stage is inevitable. In regard to the commissioning of independent television programmes, it is encouraging that section 5 of the Bill clearly defines an independent television programme. The suggestion from some Opposition Deputies that this provision and definition are in some way a slight by the Minister on RTE is extraordinary. The expenditure of up to 20 per cent of programme finances on those productions cannot be interpreted as an attempt to reduce RTE to a Channel 4 type station as suggested, a station which would merely broadcast bought-in programmes. That is totally unwarranted.

It was heartening to hear the Minister state that people want intelligent, high quality programmes and a choice of services. This is borne out by the extraordinary success of local independent radio and the role of the former Minister, Deputy Ray Burke, in that success should not be overlooked. It behoves all his successors to bear in mind Deputy Burke's experiences and the manner in which his legislation was undermined.

I urge the Minister to proceed with alacrity in addressing the problems which beset the independent radio stations. I am aware that the stations have made a joint submission to the Minister and that he is au fait with the difficulties in the sector, which I understand has losses in the region of £10 million. In many cases those stations are far more than independent projects. Some are, in the very best sense, community radio. Clare FM, my local station, provides an extraordinary level of service to the community and enjoys over 60 per cent listenership. The large number of community stations contribute to the fact that some of them are in financial difficulties, but this has a major advantage from a community prespective in that it allows the stations to deal with issues in a fairly limited and geographic area and allows them to be more responsive to the needs of the community.

Deputy Finucane outlined the effect community radio has on politics and his belief that in some way it helps to improve the image of professional politicians, none of us could argue with the need for that. It also makes the politician more readily answerable to his electorate. It provides him with an opportunity to outline his views and forces him to be more responsive to the community. As Deputy Upton stated, local radio provides news on local sports and community affairs and in the case of Clare FM provides excellent programmes on the culture, music, song and writing of the community in Clare.

The cost of setting up a network of community stations and their broadcasting facilities in a sparsely populated area is enormous. In contrast, unfortunately the non-national stations in Dublin have virtually no community input and are not community stations. I urge the Minister to consider criteria which would give an advantage to genuinely community responsive stations when he is considering further legislation to assist those stations which are currently in the independent sector but which are, in effect, directly responsive to the community needs and are community broadcasting.

The Minister indicated yesterday that there are few immediate measures available to him which would allow him to help the independent sector. Perhaps the Minister would consider removing the 3 per cent levy on the Independent Radio and Television Commission, a body which does not provide any developmental assistance or resources to the stations and a cost which, in many cases, is a burden to them.

Mr. O'Donoghue:

Deputy Ray Burke, as Minister for Communications, deserves the heartfelt thanks of the Irish public for setting in train local radio which is proving extremely successful. It would be fair to say that local radio does not talk down to the people, it is making a singular contribution to communities throughout the country.

While many aspects of this Bill are extremely welcome, certain criticisms must be voiced. This is a small island country and the argument has often been made that it would not be possible to have a number of television stations. Nevertheless, it must be accepted that Radio Telefís Éireann occupies a dominant position, indeed has a monopoly in the marketplace. That is not to say that its contribution to society over several years has not been enormous or that it is not a station of the highest quality. Monopolies and dominant positions in the marketplace are undesirable, that was the case in many member states, leading to the express regulation of dominant positions and monopolies in the Treaty of Rome.

The paramount question is whether it is fair that RTE should be allowed to take all the licence fees and be allowed to enter the marketplace in relation to advertising revenue in a way which places its competitors at a severe disadvantage. This legislation will require follow-up legislation because, unless that is done, local radio stations will be placed at a severe disadvantage. There is only so much advertising revenue in the market and, if this Bill is allowed to stand on its own, it will be possible for RTE to engage in predatory pricing and to undercut its competitors, making it impossible for them to survive. That would be a great tragedy.

Those who argue against sharing the licence fee between local radio stations and RTE say that the State cannot, should not and must not aid private enterprise in this way. In order to create prosperity in this economy it has been the practice of Government agencies, such as the Industrial Development Authority, the country development teams, Údarás na Gaeltachta and others, over the years to grant-aid private enterprise in order to stimulate employment and buoyancy in the economy. There is no valid reason why that should not apply in relation to the licence fee. There is a misconception in some quarters that the licence fee is the property of RTE and that it is collected by An Post for RTE. The truth of the matter is quite different. The licence fee is not the property of RTE but rather is channelled to RTE by the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications. It is not a contribution to RTE but is a contribution to RTE made at the Government's discretion.

There was much talk a few years ago about levelling the playing pitch. It could be said that experience has shown that the previous legislation while meritorious in many respects did not level the playing pitch. However, this legislation if allowed to stand on its own merit will change the goal posts in a major way. It will place the print media and local community radio at a severe disadvantage. RTE's monopoly of advertising revenue will be increased dramatically to the detriment of the print media and local radio stations.

The Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht has stated that it is his intention to introduce follow-up legislation at a later date. In this respect I would ask him to give serious consideration to the distribution of licence fee revenue in such a way as to give the local community radio stations an opportunity to compete on a level playing pitch in the advertising revenue marketplace.

The problem concerning the print media is more complicated and difficult to resolve. There is little doubt that one of the major disadvantages facing the print media today is the importation of cheaply priced British newspapers which sell at a high rate here. The concept of VAT on Irish newspapers must be addressed. We can be proud of our high quality print media at national and provincial level, quality media which deserve the support of Irish Governments. Unfortunately, we have been neglecting to assist the print media here and VAT on newspapers is an issue which must be examined seriously in the future. I realise that is not a question for the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht in the context of the present Bill.

In this Bill the Minister attempts valiantly to assist independent film producers and those involved in that sector of the media. I question the efficacy of the section dealing with that because there is little to prevent people currently employed in RTE transferring their communications or media companies or the shares therein to members of their own families, thereby circumventing the section which is intended to prevent what can only be described as favouritism by the RTE Authority. It is important that the Minister ensures in the context of this Bill that producers who work for RTE are independent in the true sense of the word. In the past the situation has fallen short of what one would hope and expect.

I welcome the decision by the Minister, as initiated by the former Taoiseach and Minister for the Gaeltacht, Mr. Charles Haughey, to proceed with the establishment of Teilifís na Gaeltachta. It is not often realised that the Irish language has taken on a new sense of meaning for Irish people. The integration of Europe is feared by many because they feel that we might lose our identity in such a framework. The use of the Irish language is increasing here, which I welcome. There is a growing awareness of the language and it is a testament to the traditional resilience of the Irish people in the face of adversity. The establishment of Teilifís na Gaeltachta will stand as a monument to the Minister because it will help to continue the growth of interest in the Irish language throughout the State and will lead to a greater understanding and belief in our own traditions and culture.

This is an important Bill which addresses one of the cornerstone's of our democracy, namely, the question of communication. It requires detailed examination. My reservations in this regard relate to the issue of fair competition in the marketplace and to the possibility that the independently produced films and programmes will not fall into independent hands. I strongly believe that the measures I have already mentioned need to be addressed. I am confident that the next Broadcasting Bill, which I hope will be introduced at the earliest possible date, will provide an opportunity for local community radio to compete on a level playing pitch. Our failure to do that will mean the end of the tremendous initiative put forward by the former Minister, Deputy Ray Burke, when in 1988 he introduced the Broadcasting Bill dealing with this matter.

Unless it is recognised that local radio cannot compete with a monolith there will be unfair competition in the market place. There is no valid reason why licence fees should not be divided out in a fair and equitable manner and I hope the Minister will address this issue. I would stress that I am in no way critical of RTE, I understand its unique position in Irish society and the contribution it has made and continues to make. Dominant institutions and monopolies throughout history have proven to be temptations that have led to abuse. They are counterproductive ultimately and rarely if ever achieve the noble objectives for which they were established.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe:

I wish to refer to a point raised by Deputy O'Donoghue in relation to the removal of the cap on RTE's advertising and the growth of the independent broadcasting sector. I am sure all Deputies welcome the Minister's intentions with regard to the independent broadcasting sector. It is an important industry, it has a role to play and the Government must support it. Deputy O'Donoghue referred to RTE staff and their connections outside RTE and with the independent broadcasting sector. People who are part and parcel of RTE have independent production companies outside RTE. The Minister must review this area. Is there any impediment to a staff member of RTE establishing an independent company and obtaining contracts through the backdoor method? There is a danger that by allocating money to the independent sector we are bolstering such people who are working on that sector and not contributing to the growth of the independent sector. It is ironic that the media call for politicians to declare their interests, but perhaps the Minister might address this concept in regard to RTE staff. It might be appropriate for those in RTE who have independent companies, and those acting in a consultative role, to declare their interests. What applies to us should equally apply to them. The provision in the Bill in respect of the independent broadcasting sector is good, but, I hope when we review this area in perhaps two years we will have achieved our objectives.

The Bill did not address the issue of local radio stations. Politicians welcomed the growth of independent radio stations. It is appropriate to mention the former Minister, Deputy Burke, who grasped the nettle by addressing the problems caused by the operation of pirate radio stations. We now have a thriving independent local radio network around the country. Such stations are a great asset to rural Ireland because they bring communities together and highlight local events. They involve the local people and provide a social service that many thought would never be achieved. The Minister should give some consideration to supporting the independent network in the next Bill. Given the monopoly enjoyed by RTE, how can the independent sector survive? Now that this Bill provides for the removal of the cap on RTE's advertising I would ask the Minister to level the playing pitch for the independent sector.

I will be parochial and refer to another arm of RTE in Cork, 89FM and the restricted hours under which it operates. Since the emergence of the other local radio stations in Cork, 96FM and 103FM, the ratings for Cork About, as it was known, have dramatically fallen. The people working in that radio station are extremely competent but they feel aggrieved because they have no opportunity to compete on any level playing pitch with the local radio station. I am aware the Minister met people from 89FM. I would ask him when the next Bill is introduced, to grant an extension of hours to his station so that it can adequately compete.

Mr. Kenneally:

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. Some speakers have suggested that provisions in the 1990 Act were incorrect and that this Bill has been introduced to correct that. I do not consider that the 1990 Act was necessarily wrong. An attempt was made in that Act to divert moneys away from RTE which is in an advantageous position, by putting a cap on its advertising revenue by limiting the time it could broadcast advertisements in each hour. This Bill provides for new ways of diverting moneys from RTE. The provisions of the 1990 Act were perhaps not as successful as might have been expected and the Government have reacted in that regard. Perhaps the 1990 Act was not successful because of Century Radio, though the provisions in the Act did not help Century Radio because it has now closed down. It is time to change procedures in this regard and I am glad the Government are addressing that problem.

I am concerned that a possible reduction in the fees charged by RTE, due to an increase in its advertising time, will mean less advertising on local radio stations. As we are all aware, local radio stations have been very successful. I am sure that, like me, other Deputies have noticed that more and more national companies have tended to advertise on local radio stations over the past number of years. I hope that these companies will not decide to revert to advertising on RTE. I am sure this will not happen, but one should sound a note of caution in this regard. We should strive to help local radio stations to the greatest extent possible.

I have a particular interest in new programmes. There is a need for more comprehensive coverage of national and international news on local radio stations. There is also a need for more Irish language news programmes. The great demand for the Sky News station indicates the interest Irish people have in news programmes. I should like some help to be given to local radio stations to enable them to provide a more comprehensive news service. Too many local radio station licences may have been given out initially and some stations have amalgamated. I believe more and more stations will amalgamate in the future. Some local stations are extremely successful — they are ahead of RTE1 and RTE2 — but unfortunately other stations are not so successful. If the service provided is good enough local stations will succeed.

I do not wish to be seen to be knocking RTE, which does a tremendous job. Before multi-channel television was available in my area, people used to talk about how great the BBC and ITV were. However, when one looks at these stations on an individual basis one can see that RTE is better than any of them. It is very important that this legislation is being introduced at a time when there are so many developments in the broadcasting area. In addition to the 1990 Act and this Bill, more legislation in this area will have to be introduced in the future to cover the growth in satellite channels.

This Bill is like a curate's egg — good in parts and flawed in parts. In time these flaws may mitigate against some of the objectives of the Bill. This is particularly so in regard to the provisions dealing with the independent broadcasting sector. While the Bill is committed to the development of independent broadcasting, it may in its application stifle this growth. I welcome the thrust of the Bill. We are all aware of our unemployment problem and any measure which generates employment is to be welcomed and encouraged. The Bill proposes to create employment in the independent broadcasting sector.

I wish to refer to untapped potential in that sector. There are many creative and enthusiastic young people working in this area who can make a major contribution to make to the future of Irish broadcasting. There is an unexploited reservoir of talent and ambition in this sector. However, it has been exceedingly difficult in recent times for the independent sector to make its mark, given the market dominance of RTE. RTE has had a protective monopoly in this area and is supported by public licence fees. Therefore, it is exceedingly difficult for small independent companies to compete with this corporate muscle.

If one wishes to see what the independent sector can achieve one has only to look at Channel 4 in the UK. The encouragement and acceptance of independent programming is an integral part of this channel's remit. This has resulted in considerable growth in the independent broadcasting sector in the UK. It has also led to a richer diversity in terms of available programming and, ultimately, greater consumer choice. It has offered an outlet for a new generation of programme makers and generated valuable employment in this sector. This is the model to which we should aspire. Unfortunately, I do not think this Bill is capable of achieving this. People in my area receive the Welsh service from Channel 4. I should like more Irish language programmes to be broadcast on our airwaves to cater for the increased interest in the Irish language at present.

There are a number of reasons this Bill fails the independent sector. While the Bill goes part of the way towards encouraging development, its seems to have the primary aim of copperfastening RTE's dominant position. Section 4 deals with the independent sector and provides that RTE must make specific amounts of money available in each financial year for programmes commissioned from the independent television production sector. The amount to be set aside in 1994 is £5 million, rising in stages to 20 per cent of television programme expenditure in 1999. On paper this provision seems more than adequate. However, there are serious loopholes in the legislation.

Section 4 (5) provides that any moneys not spent under the independent programming account must remain in the account and be added to the following year's allocation unless the Minister authorises RTE to withdraw this money. I am concerned that RTE will be able to create an artificial situation and make a case to the Minister for the diversion of the money not expended into the general running of RTE. I do not believe the Bill is sufficiently rigorous in its construction to avoid such a situation. I ask the Minister to reconsider this provision with a view to ensuring that no money destined for the independent sector can be diverted into any area of RTE under any circumstances. I have no doubt that at some future date financial difficulties will arise and RTE will prevail on the Minister of the day to divert this funding. I do not think the Bill possesses sufficient safeguards to prevent this happening. This is a fundamental weakness in the Bill which does not bode well for the independent sector.

The Bill does not contain many other necessary safeguards. There is no certainty that independent producers will be given access to the airwaves. The Bill does not contain any guarantees in this regard. As a result there is every possibility that RTE may for its own reasons stand in the way of the broadcasting of these programmes. I accept that there has to be some type of quality control over programming, but from my experience I know that there is no shortage of quality and talent in the independent broadcasting sector. I am concerned that this Bill does not copperfasten the right of independent producers to have their programmes broadcast. This is the most fundamental right of all, it is the raison d'être for any broadcaster. At the end of the day RTE holds all the trump cards and the independent sector has not been given the legislative back up it so badly needs.

I do not see anything in the Bill — maybe I am wrong — which will prevent RTE personnel involved in the production business from transferring their assets to family members, thereby giving them no apparent financial interest. The main reason for developing the independent sector is to introduce new blood into broadcasting and to allow for greater diversity in terms of programming. I am afraid the provisions of this Bill may perpetuate or copperfasten the status quo of the present closed shop. Its provisions comprise a mixed bag. There is much on which to commend the Bill but it is flawed in certain respects. I should like to see these defects rectified as soon as possible if the true potential of broadcasting is to be effectively tapped.

Mr. M. Brennan:

I welcome the introduction of this Bill. In particular, I very much appreciate local radio. In this respect I want to refer to North West Radio and Mid-West Radio in Sligo and Ballyhaunis. Local radio has provided news coverage in addition to comfort to local communities and is one of the greatest things that ever happened in rural areas. It has been of enormous benefit to local communities providing locally-orientated programmes, chat shows, Irish music and other types of entertainment.

We are sometimes critical of RTE but we must remember that it has done tremendous work in broadcasting and television over the years. However, I noticed recently that RTE people appear to be very cynical about politicians and politics. For example, when the Maastricht Treaty was being negotiated and our former Taoiseach was involved I noticed that RTE considered it more important to devote time to discussion of Carysfort College on the relevant morning than to the Maastricht Treaty. I was not happy about that. I was in Dublin and switched to see the BBC's coverage of the Maastricht Treaty, which was far greater than that of RTE. I was not very happy either about the discussion on "Morning Ireland" on that occasion.

We are aware that local radio began to operate legally in 1989 and since then they have made steady progress to the extent that their listenership today has surpassed that of Radio 1 and has almost twice the listenership of FM2. That is an enormous advance by local radio, which has brought enormous comfort to listeners in rural areas, young and old, who can listen to reports of local events. They provide news items and information on what is happening locally, which is a great service. That is why I want to give them credit on their achievement. Local radio should be financed from our licences.

While RTE 1 and 2 have a monopoly vis-á-vis the licence fee, local radio should receive part of that revenue to keep it going. It is not easy for them as they have invested large amounts of money for which they should be compensated.

RTE gives great sports coverage to local and national games, gaelic football, hurling, soccer, the World Cup and the Olympic Games. I want to give credit where it is due.

I am happy that local radio has done so well since its legal initiation in 1989.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Is Bille tábhachtach é seo mar tá tionchar an-mhór ag RTÉ ar gach seirbhís raidió agus ar gach nuachtán ar fud na tíre. Tá tagairt déanta cheana don tionchar atá ag RTÉ ar mheath na Gaeilge, agus b'fhéidir nach bhfuil dóthain déanta ag RTÉ mar a dhéantaí tráth. Bhí seans acu cláir Ghaeilge a chraoladh ach is dócha go bhfuil deacrachtaí ann maidir le meascán cothrom bheith ann mar tá daoine ann nach bhfuil Gaeilge ar a dtoil acu agus dá mbeadh an iomarca Gaeilge sna cláir bhainfeadh sé sin go mór den líon éist-eachta agus féachana. Ach, os a choinne sin, is stáisiún náisiúnta RTÉ agus ba chóir go mbeadh Gaeilge le cloisteáil ar an raidió agus ar an teilifís. B'fhéidir go bhfuasclófar an fhadhb seo nuair a bheidh teilifís Ghaeilge againn, agus tá súil agam go n-éireoidh leis an mbeartas nua seo.

Ach b'fhéidir gur fearr an meascán. Más clár iomlán Gaeilge atá ann beidh lucht féachana ann, ach beidh daoine eile ag breathnú ar chláir eile seachas iad, b'fhéidir ar stáisiúin ar nós an BBC. Nuair a bhíonn an meascán ann, fiú an cúpla focal Gaeilge, má fhítear seo isteach sa chlár go nádúrtha músclaíonn sé seo spéis na n-éisteoirí sa teanga. Sna stáisiúin áitiúla ach go háirithe, bíonn antionchar ag craoltóirí nuair a labhraíonn siad as Gaeilge mar ghnáthdhaoine ar spéis leo Gaeilge a labhairt.

I compliment many people in local radio who, when introducing their programmes, use the "cúpla focal" in a natural way, thereby allowing people to understand that our native language is not something reserved for fossils, museums and intellectuals nationwide. It is great to hear an ordinary person — who may not be a teacher or public representative — using the "cúpla focal" in cluasíní, when everybody knows exactly what he or she is saying.

The removal of the cap on advertising by RTE is a double-edged sword. I am sure RTE are delighted that they will be enabled to earn as much advertising revenue as they wish. On the other hand, if they earn unlimited revenue through advertising, such revenue will be correspondingly reduced through the other sources of advertisement. Newspapers are often forgotten in the overall world of communications. We should remember that newspapers constitute the historians of our times in that the printed word will remain long after radio programmes have been forgotten. Therefore, newspapers should also be protected in this respect. We should remember that local newspapers must compete with the nationals, RTE and perhaps with local radio. It may be difficult to divert money from licence fees to newspapers but they are the people who, through private enterprise, produce daily newspapers. I have often thought that the production of a newspaper containing so much news is the nearest thing to a miracle every time it comes off the press. All of us think that the statements we issue are the most important statements they receive and wonder why they are not included. Given the amount of material they receive it is a marvellous achievement to publish a newspaper which is up to date.

The newspapers are not appreciated enough, given that they have a lasting impact. They are a valuable source of information for historians long after the screen has gone blank, unless of course one stacks up video tapes.

I join others in paying tribute to the local radio stations which should be protected and defended. I would have no qualms if some of the revenue raised by way of the licence fee was diverted to these stations. At the beginning some members of the public foolishly thought that individuals would jump in and invest in local radio to make a profit. It is now realised the profits will be limited. Indeed, I admire those who are prepared to invest in local radio. It should be remembered that even those local radio stations which are doing well are in financial difficulty. I ask the Minister to take the financial position of local radio stations into account, given the service that they provide. Indeed, they are much more than radio stations in that they issue warnings about the danger of flooding, oil spills and so on in local areas. They even annouce death notices.

I compliment local radio stations for the programmes they produce which are of an extremely high standard. The listenership figures prove this. In this regard I should mention the local radio station in my own area, CKR, which is among the top stations in the country and can hold its own with RTE. In relation to advertising, however, it is not competing on a level playing pitch having regard to the fact that big companies want RTE to carry all their advertising.

I also compliment local radio stations for carrying Irish language programmes. This is exactly what we want; the language should not be reserved for special State occasions.

I sound a word of warning on the question of programmes produced by independent film-makers. Many people within RTE have a direct line to the Authority and if some of them set up their own companies we may not know who we are helping. Perhaps when the Minister comes to reply he will outline what the position will be in this regard. While we should encourage independent film-makers to produce drama programmes and so on people should not be allowed to use inside information to gain access to those at the top.

In conclusion, I ask the Minister to examine seriously the role newspapers and local radio stations play in our society.

Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht (Mr. M. Higgins):

I thank all the Deputies who have contributed to the debate on Second Stage, in particular for the constructive approach they have taken. In relation to the concerns voiced there was a commonality of expression. I will deal with these in a few moments.

In my introductory speech I said that this was but the first critical step in my approach to broadcasting. In developing my response to the Bill I was particularly anxious about the jobs situation. Let us be clear about some matters. Section 3 of the 1990 Act put jobs at risk. When I met the RTE Authority they made it very clear that they had prepared notices for individuals in case the cap would not be removed. In addition, the advertising industry presented clear evidence that jobs were at risk. I found myself in a situation, therefore, where jobs were under immediate threat and I had to act. If I had decided to wait to encompass what is included in this Bill in more general legislation I would have been playing with those jobs and livelihoods.

All of the Deputies who spoke expressed concern about local radio stations. Officials of my Department had a series of technical meetings with the Independent Radio and Television Commission and AIRS prior to my substantial meeting with the representatives of AIRS which lasted for over two hours. This has been followed by a further series of technical meetings between my staff and that organisation. I was presented with a series of proposals not unlike those made in the House today. In return, I made a number of proposals to see how I could be of assistance to them. I can assure the House that I take the commitment contained in the section of the joint programme for Government dealing with the viability of local radio stations very seriously, like the other commitments contained in the programme.

A number of points were raised during the course of the debate which, with respect, improved as it progressed. I believe that Deputy Frances Fitzgerald was confused in that she accused me of interfering with RTE by removing the cap while at the same time she wanted me to reach in to the editorial function of RTE. While I wish her well it seems her script had been issued before she heard my speech because, for example, she also accused me of not developing a concept of public service broadcasting. In my speech I drew a distinction between an approach built around the communicative order as opposed to market segments. That was probably the clearest statement on broadcasting policy offered in this House for some time. I am not asking everyone to agree with me but I have stated explicitly that I regard broadcasting as a part of the communicative order of society and I am approaching it from a rights perspective. Therefore the rights of minorities and genders have to be balanced. One would arrive at a different set of conclusions if one began by looking on the population as being divided into a series of market segments.

On reflection, I think the Deputy will want to think again about her decription of my actions as "a liked, liked Bill" which is somewhat similar to the use of double adverbs by Mrs. Thatcher for which she became infamous when she lectured the miners for being "very, very silly". She was also being unfair in using the words "interference" and "ad hocery". The need for a policy was developed in my speech.

Deputy Fitzgerald's contribution also contained a number of buzz words, including "freeze frame", "pay-offs", "unravelling" and a complicated image about knitting which I found to be rather unusual. She pointed out that the Bill would lead to a fabric which was distorted and jangled. This was an unfortunate mixed metaphor at best.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): The Minister never dropped a stitch.

Mr. M. Higgins:

I accept the points she made about local broadcasting. Let me repeat, I will address the issue. Deputy Fitzgerald did make a very good point when she spoke of the importance of music. I share her concern. She correctly describes tradition as a tool of local democracy and an important cultural contribution. She is correct, as were other Deputies, in stressing the important role of drama and that it should be assisted. In the cut and thrust of politics she is right to describe my legislation in whatever way she likes. I will be concentrating on the positive suggestions she made.

Deputy Quill spoke about the need for a more comprehensive Bill. I have addressed this issue already. I said I had to deal with the immediate threat to jobs, which is very important. I will address these issues in the more general legislation to be brought forward. The Deputy said that most of the Bill was laudable; this was courageous of somebody who did not join with me in opposing the cap in 1990. Her change of mind is welcome and I respect it. It is not easy for somebody who votes for a measure to say simply that it has not worked. I will take on board the points she made, including the importance of vigorous current affairs, music, drama and the other cultural contributions in broadcasting.

I found all the contributions very positive in that regard and I certainly will be looking at all these areas. I will facilitate a broad debate. In my introduction speech I said I hoped when I would introduce general legislation to give people an opportunity to discuss a broadcasting regime that will last past the end of this century. This will give us a great opportunity to debate broadcasting within a culture.

I thank Deputy De Rossa for his very complimentary remarks. He is correct in saying that the use in my script of the word "exploit" is verbal abuse and I take his correction in the spirit in which it was offered. One always develops creativity and allows it to flower and one does not, in fact, exploit creative talent. It is very good to correct the use of language. I will be, as he suggested, reviewing section 31. He has hit on a very important point: people have concentrated their attention on the orders made under section 31 but the best way of looking at it may be to move back from the order itself and ask how the section is functioning in relation to other sections of broadcasting legislation. If we are introducing fundamental legislation on broadcasting we need to look at the corpus of legislation that exists and question the intent of section 31 and ask how it related to other duties and responsibilities which are specified in the existing legislation and how they are being fulfilled — for example, to section 18 which places obligations on the Authority. I will be carrying out a comprehensive review.

Deputy O'Sullivan has a long interest — indeed he spoke to me about it some time ago — in a subject that Deputy Quill raised, the extension of RTE's broadcasting hours in Cork. I am examining this at present and in the course of preparing my total review of broadcasting legislation which will lead to substantial legislation I will be looking at the operation of the 1988 Act. I would be very foolish not to take this opportunity and in doing so we will address a number of the issues the Deputies raised.

I thank Deputy Kemmy for his kind remarks. He rightly stressed the importance of local radio. The 1988 Act set up a regime for local commercial radio and it also brought the Independent Radio and Television Commission into existence. I again state my dissatisfaction with the provision made for community radio. What people thought they were getting into in 1988 and 1989 has changed. The public wanted stories, drama and documentation as well as news and current affairs and they voted with their ears. People who thought the public would be satisfied with a diet of less had to change and many stations that began with one idea came around to a different view through talking to their listeners. Their programmes now include current affairs and news.

The fact that I am bringing forward legislation to deal with television in the independent sector does not mean that I am neglecting anything else. I have spoken already of the meetings that took place before I finalised this legislation. I am very well aware of the views of the different lobby groups. I cannot put the newspapers right but I am certainly aware of the arguments they are making. One cannot speak of an easy migration of advertising revenue from the visual to the print medium as it simply does not work like that. They have difficulties that I addressed in my opening speech. I like to see local radio and local newspapers as part of the communicative order. I may be more concerned than some of the newspapers themselves about tendencies towards monopoly in the ownership and editorial structure. Very often monopolistic structures are tending to reach out from the national arena into the local provincial press. I met the representatives of the local press and held a very good and positive meeting with them. I am looking forward to a meeting with the members of the national newspapers of Ireland. I had a meeting with the RTE Authority as well as the RTE group of trade unions. I have met the members of the RTE Authority as well as the RTE group of trade unions. I have met the members of the Independent Radio and Television Commission and AIRS. I have been practicising a process of consultation. I find if difficult that those who say they welcome the removal of the cap will vote against the Bill. Is this as a result of my proposals on the independent film sector? My proposals are both specific, tightly defined and accountable. In response to the many points raised on the "stand alone" distance between commissioning and the actual ownership of production, I have gone to the trouble of defining it. I have also ensured that all commissions have to be reported on and the report comes back to the Oireachtas. I will be monitoring the situation.

I will be also monitoring predatory pricing. Deputy Deasy raised many points which I have covered already but he may need to be assured that I will not be allocating time for my own poetry as I have not the slightest intention of reaching into the commissioning decisions of RTE. My responsibilities essentially are to introduce and provide the best broadcasting regime that will accomplish the objectives stated in the Government programme. I intend to do that.

Deputy Burke made an interesting speech in which he outlined his thinking at the time he introduced the Broadcasting (Wireless Telegraphy) Act, 1988, and the Radio and Television Act, 1990. With respect, I have not changed my own view and I appreciate the vigorous defence he made of his, which I think was a mistake at the time.

I will now deal with one or two specific points because I would like to respond to Deputies in the same spirit of generosity with which they prepared their contributions.

We all recognise that local radio has a number of set costs which range from the high cost of news and current affairs, transmission costs, the costs involved in producing documentaries and the costs relating to the running of special projects. I think it was Deputy Deasy who asked whether I had looked at the profile of local radio. That was where I began. I realised that some stations are viable and doing well but others are in difficulty. This breaks down in turn to stations that are seeking mergers and those that are in difficulty and resisting mergers. There are also other divisions we could make between stations whose origins are loosely in the community and who have now turned commercial or the many more that began in a commercial vein and have now become community.

I have spent a great deal of time assessing the degree of their investment, their initial capital costs and their present capital requirements. At a meeting with the executives of AIRS which lasted more than two hours I discussed with them not only the list of proposals they put to me but also a set of proposals which I put to them. That meeting has been succeeded by contacts with my Department on how best to advance their position and I intend to follow that through. There is a clear, unequivocal commitment in the Programme for Government to make local radio viable and I will address that matter with the same degree of commitment and urgency as I am addressing other matters. In this legislation I am trying to protect and create jobs.

In making proposals for local radio I will bear in mind all the points raised by Deputies. I have met not only the representative organisations dealing with stations but also individual station owners, one of whom told me yesterday that they simply want me to provide a regime that will last for a period of time rather than respond quickly to particular demands. They would prefer me to take time with the matter in the way I am proposing rather than to respond to each individual proposal in the short term. I am not going to lose time on this matter but I will give it the consideration necessary to provide a regime for local and community radio which will last. In preparing this fundamental change in broadcasting I will consider the total structures of broadcasting. It is past time for us to consider Radio na Gaeltachta, Teilifís na Gaeltachta, local community radio and RTE, and I will be considering all these appropriate structures.

The Irish people have a great interest in the story telling and narrative and they welcome story telling in forms of drama and documentaries. I am pleased that the public have been able to communicate this wish to the many broadcasting practitioners. I remind Deputies who commented on my proposals for the independent sector that I have taken a great deal of time considering this matter in terms of the independent person and the commissioning body. I have set up procedures that are transparent and Deputies will have an opportunity, on an annual basis if they so wish, to question these procedures. I give the same advice to those who are concerned about predatory pricing. I would refer Deputies to my opening speech on Second Stage when I said I will be keeping a close eye on this matter. I will exercise my powers in the event of abuse of the system so as to prevent an unacceptable predatory pricing regime.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): The Skibbereen Eagle is alive and well.

Mr. M. Higgins:

Yes, but the gaze is directed in a slightly different area. Deputy Kemmy said that in the early days, before the introduction of regulations in relation to independent broadcasting, many of the work practices and conditions were unacceptable, and that is a good point. The viability package for local radio must include conditions and procedures that will be acceptable, which will in turn lead to the making of a professional contribution.

I particularly thank those Deputies who welcomed the contribution made by broadcasters in relation to the use of the Irish language. Tá súil agam go mbainfear i bhfad níos mó úsáide as an Ghaeilge ar an raidió áitiúil agus i gcúrsaí cralta i gcoitinne, go háirithe chun cúrsaí reatha agus mórimeachtaí na linne seo a phlé, agus go mbeidh béim ar leith ar nuachtchláir agus nuashaothar scríbh-neoireachta, agus mar sin de.

Is iontach an borradh is féidir leis na meáin chumarsáide a thabhairt do chur chun cinn na teanga. Glacaim leis an tuairim a nochtadh inniu go bhfuil i bhfad níos mó suime sa Ghaeilge, i litríocht na Gaeilge, i saol na Gaeilge agus sna Gaeltachtaí faoi láthair ná b'amhlaidh roimhe seo. Tá súil agam go mbeidh ar chumas lucht cumarsáide ag leibhéal an Stáit agus ag an leibhéal áitiúil agus príobháideach a thuilleadh a dhéanamh, agus beidh fonn orm cabhrú leo.

On the whole question of commissioning of independent film production, there is an enormous creative resource in this country in the whole area of film and television. I propose that the independent film sector should have access to RTE. In my introductory speech I said there is no reason that a national station should not be used as a starting point for our young film makers and I intend to ensure that this is done. When I make specific provision requiring a sum of money I am accused of interfering with capacity within the station. Let me make this point clear. In my meeting with the RTE group of trade unions and the RTE Authority I stressed that RTE's greatest asset is in the creative capacity of its workforce. It is my wish that this creativity be used in the station to make programmes. I am not saying what programmes should be made but simply giving my views on broadcasting. I do not see a creative workforce as being locked into a kind of regime which would be market segment led. It should be used to produce new products and to create new and exciting initiatives. I hope that the creativity that will result from the interaction between the independent sector and RTE will be of benefit to both.

Deputies raised the question of the impact of this Bill on various areas of broadcasting and communications generally. I will have an opportunity of reviewing the legislation if necessary. I believe I have come up with the best definitions possible and the best mechanisms for transparency. Most of the concerns raised were about local radio, which I have addressed.

It is very important that people realise what is at stake in the history of this argument. When the independent sector first approached elected representatives some of them made an uncritical demand for a share of the licence fee. The more recent submissions are very well thought out and do not make such a simple demand. They do not ask for a single measure or that money be expended in a blanket way. These people have responded positively to my request for information about their practical problems of operation, which differ from one case to another. My approach will be to respond with respect for the complexity of the matter. I have told this sector that while no decisions have been made, of most value has been their identification of precise levels of costings and how they might best be assisted. Deputy Finucane raised that point, as did Deputy Pat Upton who was concerned that the effects of this Bill within RTE would lead to a lack of creativity. I have addressed that issue.

Deputy Foley raised the question of my approach to this matter. I do not agree that my approach is one-sided or insensitive to local papers or local radio. In the past I have been more defensive of local newspapers than many others. I saw good local newspapers fall to hostile bids for ownership. If there are not conditions of employment with regard to competing products and another media locally, the newspaper which is paying union wages under good conditions is at a disadvantage. By improving conditions in local radio one indirectly creates a level field in relation to employment and conditions. The proprietors of local newspapers indicated to me that they did not oppose lifting the cap. There were other matters which impinged upon them much more, of which I took a detailed note and am addressing. Deputy Killeen made a point with which I agree, with regard to Clare FM, which he claims is one of the most successful stations. He raised an interesting question about the levy on the Independent Radio and Television Commission. Any fundamental review of broadcasting must review the 1988 Act. Even Deputy Burke acknowledges that conditions have changed since 1987.

Deputy O'Keeffe spoke about the independent sector. The House has just two issues to decide, the removal of the cap and my proposals for the independent sector. Taken with the revival of the film board, the changed regime on taxation on film production, the provision on Telefís na Gaeilge and my support for small production units within the Gaeltacht, all I am doing in this proposal is putting together perhaps the most favourable atmosphere for film and television production that has prevailed for some time because I know the creative capacity of the people involved, the immense job potential and that if we create good jobs in this area they will not be vulnerable to a decision taken at a distance. One is talking about intelligence products with low transport costs, over which one has so much control and something for which we have a recognised genius. With regard to recognition, a 24 year old man competing against 4,100 products won a gold medal last week in Houston, Texas, for his arts production "Blood on the Canvas", a film completed in Telegael in Spiddal. We also have the success of Neil Jordan and the wonderful woman who won her second Oscar for make-up.

All these proposals are very positive. This small measure is a critical first step directed towards job protection. I was not talking about an abstract threat to jobs in the future. There was a real threat to jobs in RTE in the advertising sector, a real flight of advertising revenue from this country. There was negativity in relation to the independent sector. First it froze, then it shrank and a number of jobs were lost. I have turned this around. I will be coming back to the Dáil with comprehensive legislation, without undue delay, and that will follow the philosophy I outlined in introducing the Second Stage of this Bill. It will be derived from arts, culture, Gaeltacht, broadcasting and heritage. It will be a democratic theory of culture and within which there will be an approach which sees citizens as part of the communicative order with rights. This will guide broadcasting as much as it will guide other things. While I recognise the existence of the market-place, I will not allow market segment thinking to lean on any aspect of culture — and broadcasting is included — to distort it from its true creative and responsible contribution to contemporary and future Irish culture.

I thank Members for their positive and thoughtful contributions which I assure them I will bear in mind, particularly when I am preparing my new framework legislation. Tá mé thar a bheith buíoch as ucht an méid a dúradh san díospóir-eacht seo ag an céim seo.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Mr. M. Higgins:

With the agreement of the Whips I suggest Tuesday week, or earlier if possible.

Committee Stage order for Tuesday, 18 May 1993.