Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 Jun 1993

Vol. 432 No. 4

Roads Bill, 1991: From the Seanad.

The Dáil went into Committee to consider amendments from the Seanad.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment (Mr. Browne,

Wexford): I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 1:

Section 2: In page 9, subsection (1), lines 6 and 7, "has the meaning assigned to it by section 13" deleted and "means the council of a county, the corporation of a county or other borough, or the council of an urban district" substituted.

During the debates in both Houses I gave a firm commitment that I would bring as much of the Bill as possible into force immediately upon enactment. This technical drafting amendment to section 2 will facilitate me in this regard and allow for the early implementation of the following sections: section 11, declaration of public roads; section 12, abandonment of public roads; section 67, road users' duty of care; section 68, cycleways; section 69, temporary dwellings on national roads, etc.; section 70, dangerous structures, trees, etc.; section 71, unauthorised signs, caravans, vehicles, etc. on public roads; section 72, skips; section 73, extinguishment of public rights of way; section 75, temporary closing of roads and section 76, drainage.

Question put and agreed to.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Browne,

Carlow-Kilkenny): Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 may be discussed together.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 2:

Section 10: In page 11, subsection (1) (a), lines 21 and 22, ", after consultation with the Authority," deleted.

The purpose of amendments Nos. 2 and 3 is to enable the Minister to complete his review of the classification of national roads before the National Roads Authority is formally established. As drafted, the Bill would have required the Minister to establish the National Roads Authority first. He would then have to consult it before completing his review of the national road classification. Having considered the views of the National Roads Authority he would then make a formal national roads order and only at that point could the National Roads Authority become responsible for these roads.

I have already formally consulted the interim National Roads Authority on the national road classification and it has made a detailed submission to me. In the near future I will complete my own review taking account of the submissions made to me by the National Roads Authority and others. When I am establishing the National Roads Authority I will also make a national roads order. This will ensure that the Authority will take over responsibility for these roads from the day it is assigned the functions set out in Part III of the Bill, rather than having to await completion of the national roads review after its formal establishment.

It is my intention that the National Roads Authority will take over statutory responsibility for its national road functions from 1 January 1994. This is the most appropriate date since it is the beginning of the financial year and provides a reasonable lead in time to prepare for the transfer of functions. In effect, therefore, these amendments are a means of preserving the Minister's power to classify national roads in the intervening period before the National Roads Authority is formally established.

The amendments also provide that the Minister will have to consult the Authority when he proposes to make any future changes to the national road classification.

Ms Keogh

I am glad the Minister is making this amendment. It is a sensible amendment and the right road has been taken in this regard. I support the amendment.

Mr. Finucane

What type of exercise is involved in the national road classification? We discussed this matter in detail in the special roads committee and I brought to the Minister's attention a specific secondary route along the estuary in County Limerick, an area for which the Taoiseach has projected large scale industrial development in the future. That route is regarded as a national secondary one. At that committee, the Minister stated it was not his intention to reclassify any further routes on the basis that he did not have sufficient funding to conclude works on the national primary route. What is the big deal in regard to reclassifications? While I accept the logic of doing that before establishing a National Roads Authority, what is involved in this exercise? Are we talking about upgrading secondary routes to national primary routes? If so, how much road and time will be involved?

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): There is no big deal in this regard. The Minister received a number of submissions from local authorities and interested parties in regard to the upgrading of roads. I have recently been stressing reclassification in my own county. The interim National Roads Authority is in place and has given its views to the Minister in that regard.

I hope decisions will be made, but they will be made on the basis of the submissions made to the Minister by the National Roads Authority, the Minister's own views and, most important, the submissions made to him by Deputies and local authorities. The whole purpose is that if roads are to be reclassified that would be done immediately rather than waiting for the National Roads Authority to be put in place. I certainly hope the Minister will make decisions soon.

Mr. Finucane

I am a bit confused. The Minister spoke about a lack of finance and of the necessity for upgrading the national secondary routes. In reply to a submission from Limerick County Council about the N69 from Limerick to Foynes and Tarbert, which carries a huge amount of transport, the Minister pointed out that he could not seriously consider upgrading it because there was no finance and his priority was national primary routes. Is the Minister now considering reclassifying some of those routes as national primary routes? If he is, that contradicts the impression I got during a meeting of the Special Committee dealing with the Roads Bill which met during the summer recess last year.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): Obviously every road will not be reclassified. Strict criteria are laid down, including volume of traffic or the fact that the road leads to a port or an airport, etc. If the Shannon estuary is to be developed, as we all hope it will be, finance would have to be made available to upgrade the road whether it is a secondary road or a national primary road.

Mr. Finucane

May I take it that the N69 is within that submission for reclassification?

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): It is, and I will let the Deputy have the up-to-date position on it.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 3:

Section 10: In page 12, subsection (3), lines 12 to 14, paragraph (b) deleted and the following paragraph substituted:

"(b) Where the Authority stands established under section 16 the Minister shall consult with it before classifying a public road or a proposed public road as a national road under subsection (1) (a) or before making an order under paragraph (a) of this subsection relating to a national road.".

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 4:

Section 18:

In page 20, subjection (1), between lines 33 and 34, the following paragraph inserted:

"(b) The Authority shall have regard to the need for efficiency, economy and quality in the construction and maintenance of national roads and shall include an independent assessment thereof in any draft plan prepared by it under this subsection.".

In response to the debate in the Seanad, which emphasised the need for regular quality audits of the National Roads Authority's operations, I introduced an amendment to section 18 dealing with the preparation by the National Roads Authority of its medium term plan. The amendment will oblige the Authority to have regard to the need for efficiency, economy and quality in the construction and maintenance of national roads and will also require it to include an independent assessment of these matters in its medium term plan which must be prepared at least once every five years and reviewed annually. The amendment places the stress on efficiency, economy and quality in the construction and maintenance of national roads, the core function of the National Roads Authority, and ensures that these elements are fully assessed in the Authority's medium term plan. The medium term plan is the Authority's strategic mission statement and is the proper vehicle for the type of quality assessment proposed. A number of Deputies and Senators stressed the need for some pressure to be put on the National Roads Authority to have quality built into the review. That is why I am moving this amendment. The assessment will be independent, which is what most people want.

Ms Keogh

During the debate we were concerned about standards. We alluded to the Tallaght by-pass where not only did we spend money on providing the by-pass but had to provide moneys for shoring it up because of the very bad quality of workmanship. From that point of view I welcome this amendment.

It is unfortunate that the Minister was not quite so generous in this House in relation to some of the amendments that we put forward at that time. We did talk about who pays the price for all of this but I do not see any amendment dealing with that point.

Mr. Barrett

An amendment such as this is to be welcomed but this is another example of aspirations going into the legislation and imposing obligations on local authorities without backing them up with adequate finance. We are copping out and passing on the responsibility for proper maintainance to the local authorities, but how can the local authorities maintain anything when they are not given the resources to do so? We could all quote examples in our own local authority areas, including the standard of public lighting and the repair and maintenance of roadways. The Minister will drive down the Shankill by-pass on his way home to Wexford most weekends and will see the lack of quality for the residents adjoining these roads simply because we, as a country, have opted out of maintaining any standards in the context of noise emanating from major roads. Quality, from the point of view of the public, is quality of life and in this context completion of our national roads leaves a lot to be desired.

Nobody could argue that the Authority should not have regard to efficiency, economy and quality in the construction and maintenance of national roads, but there is not much point in saying this unless we are prepared to spend the money and there is no evidence that that is the case. We had an example here recently when we passed the Homeless Persons Bill and imposed obligations on local authorities to house homeless people. Dublin County Council are now putting homeless families into one bedroomed dwellings constructed for old people. I know I am straying from this amendment, but it is just another example of the Dáil passing legislation and telling local authorities that they must do this or that. Unless we give them the resources there is no point in doing that. I want to go on record as supporting the concept of the amendment but I am sceptical that we will have the resources to do what is contained in the amendment. I would like to hear the Minister say he will be giving the necessary finance for the achieving of the aspirations contained in this amendment.

Mr. Finucane

It is important that we should have good quality roads. In the case of many new roads the work is contracted out to independent contractors. In my own county, the new Rathkeale by-pass which was opened was an excellent job. However, I would like to know what mechanism exists for checking quality. Is this done shortly after a new road is constructed or is it done after the contractors have been paid? If, afterwards, a particular section of a roadway is found to be defective, can the local authority revert back to the original contractors and ask them to rectify that part of the road? What about roads which are part of national primary routes, such as the one from Limerick to Killarney where it does not seem to be possible to rectify constant bumps? Where does a quality audit feature in relation to this? Will a quality audit recommend that a certain amount of money be expended in retrieving part of a national primary route which is regarded as defective?

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): Regarding Deputy Keogh's queries, when the Bill was discussed in the Dáil it was agreed that some of those matters would be considered in the Seanad. That is what happened in relation to some matters and officials then had more time to consider those matters.

Regarding Deputy Barrett's comments, I agree there are difficulties with local authorities in relation to road construction. At the request of Deputies Barrett and Keogh, who spoke about noise levels on the Shankill by-pass, an amendment was tabled in respect of the noise issue. The Deputies' views were taken on board in that regard. I am hopeful that economies will be made in regard to road works when the National Roads Authority take over responsibility for the maintenance of national roads on 1 January 1994. An amount of £360 million is being spent on our national roads this year. With better management better quality roads and facilities could be provided when new roads are being built. People around the country, not just in Shankill, are dissatisfied with the condition of the area alongside the road after road construction. Given the powers the National Roads Authority will have, it will be in a position to provide a better standard of road and, more importantly, a better quality of road for residents who live adjacent to the road.

Regarding Deputy Finucane's point relating to the construction of roadways, the contractor builds the road but during its construction residents, engineers and representatives from local authorities and the Department of the Environment keep tabs on the road construction until its completion. I agree with the Deputy that in certain circumstances the end product has not been of a satisfactory standard. In my area a road is being reconstructed which was built five or six years previously. Taxpayers' money is being used for that construction which could be allocated to other necessary road works.

Mr. Finucane

The Deputy is lucky the work is being completed so quickly.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): I hope that the National Roads Authority in conjunction with the road constructors, whether the construction is the responsibility of the local authorities or private contractors, will produce better standard roads in future.

As Deputy Barrett stated, there is a need to consider the condition of the areas alongside the road following completion of road works. Money is always a problem. However, from 1 January 1994 I hope moneys previously allocated to local authorities for national road construction will now be allocated to the National Roads Authority who will be responsible for the efficiency and economy of road construction.

One of the main points raised in the Seanad and previously in the Dáil concerned the quality of roads following construction. The National Roads Authority must be accountable in regard to the quality of road they produce and for that reason there will be an independent assessment every five years in this area.

Mr. Barrett

I thank the Minister for taking on board my suggestions and those of Deputy Keogh on Committee Stage in relation to noise levels. This is a move forward. I ask the Minister to follow up on his generosity by incorporating a provision in this regard in the legislation. Noise levels on the Shankill bypass are causing a major problem. The issue of noise levels affects everybody. We have written to the Department of the Environment on a number of occasions seeking the provision of double glazing for residents living close to the Shankill bypass. I am convinced that if those residents had available resources, both Dublin County Council and the Minister would be in the High Court. Unfortunately, those people do not have resources and they depend on their public representatives to resolve their difficulties.

Regarding road quality and standards, it would be an example of goodwill if the Minister took on board the problem in relation to noise levels on the Shankill bypass. The problem is affecting a small group of people. Their lives have been transformed by this nuisance. Various studies have been carried out. There are contradictory surveys in respect of noise levels. However, the best noise level survey that could be carried out would be for a person to call to those houses adjacent to the Shankill bypass and consider if any ordinary person would be comfortable living in those houses when heavy traffic is passing. The quality of life of the people in that area has been reduced by high noise levels. Their lives would be transformed by the Department, through the county council, allocating a small amount of money to ensure that double glazing is provided in exceptional circumstances.

I recommend, in relation to the Shankill area, that double glazing be provided in cases where it is evident that such a measure is the only solution to the problem. There is not much point in talking about the road surface if the people living beside the road find their lives adversely affected by high noise levels. The quality of one's lives is what is important.

Safety features, noise levels and the quality of life enjoyed by people living beside the roadway are important considerations. I would be prepared to travel five miles an hour slower to provide a better quality of life for residents adjacent to major roadways. There is no point in talking about good road surfaces and and grand lamp standards if the quality of life enjoyed by those living near the roadway has been reduced or that adequate safety precautions are not provided. Since the Minister accepted my recommendation and that of Deputy Keogh in relation to inserting a provision on noise level standards, I would ask him to consider people whose lives have been affected as a result of the construction of a major national road such as the Shankill bypass. I ask the Minister to give a commitment that he will sympathetically consider this and allocate a small sum of money to eliminate this nuisance for the residents living near the Shankill bypass.

Ms Keogh

As Deputy Barrett stated, we raised the question of noise levels along the Shankill by-pass and I now remind the Minister of this matter. When the Minister talked of the control of noise in an earlier debate he said that provisions in that regard — for example, in respect of those who were affected by noise levels on the Shankill by-pass — could not be retrospective. As a relatively small number of people are involved it might be inferred that this is a small problem, but it is not a small problem for those involved. Life is very difficult for them. It is a matter that could be easily rectified. I appeal to the Minister to give this matter his attention. This would avoid further representations being made in relation to that problem.

Regarding the amendment, it is good to achieve a quality audit. We are concerned to obtain the "Q" mark and that the National Roads Authority would attain the "Q" mark standard. It would be useless obtaining an audit which indicates that a road is disintegrating if the resources are not available to repair it. That is the main point with regard to funding as raised on Report Stage. We can have all the independent assessments we like, which probably only tell us what is obvious from driving along the road but they are irrelevant unless specific resources are allocated.

I tabled a question to the Minister for the Environment requesting that a percentage of EC funds be allocated for the maintenance as well as the construction of those roads.

Mr. Finucane

With regard to noise levels, the modernisation of our national primary route involves the construction of by-passes. Many people who built a house adjacent to what they regarded as a peaceful country road are now living beside main national motorways. Two people who contacted me in this regard had a valid point to make. Those people were living beside a national primary route and their whole lifestyle was disrupted. I made a simple request at the time to compensate those people for the disturbance caused by noise levels, for example by the provision of double glazed windows.

In regard to any proposed roadway a significant capital acquisition cost is set aside to compensate adjoining land owners for their land. However, it is often people living in a cottage who find themselves located beside a national primary route. Such people are not taken into account in the compulsory acquisition of land. It would cost only a small amount of money to compensate those people for the disruption to their lifestyle by the construction of those routes. It would engender good-will if they were compensated. Such a provision should be contained in the Bill.

The stretch of road from Limerick to Adare should be completed. More than £1 million will be spent this year on compulsory acquisitions and in the preparation of designs and drawings. A small amount of money should be allocated from those funds to compensate people, who will inevitably complain after the road has been constructed, for the intolerable noise levels that will affect their lifestyle.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): The amendment suggested will solve the problems raised by Deputies. I appreciate the difficulty in Shankill and I should like to tell Deputies Keogh and Barrett that I have not forgotten about the matter. It is still a live issue and we are considering how to resolve the problem without creating a precedent. If we were required to compensate people for all the roads that have been built it would amount to a substantial sum of money. While the amount of money being allocated for Shankill might seem to be small it would add up to a considerable sum if we were to address other problems in a similar way nationwide. I pass the Shankill houses every day and I appreciate the difficulty there. We are examining how to resolve the problem for that small number of residents.

In regard to Deputy Finucane's comments, compensation is available for farmers whose land is acquired by the Department of the Environment or the local council. In some instances, if a house is too near a road the council will purchase it and relocate the family. The fact that the amendments were made to the Bill setting up the National Roads Authority concerning sound levels will overcome the problem in future. In my county the Department of the Environment, and the local authority, went out of their way to facilitate as much as possible people living alongside a roadway which was to be extended. I hope that will continue to be the case. Problems arise but, with the help of the resident engineer and the county engineer, they can usually be resolved to the satisfaction of everyone.

Another problem can arise where business people living on or near a roadway are not compensated when a new road is constructed. I am unhappy with that position because if business people lose much of their business due to the construction of a new roadway they should be compensated. Farmers, and others are compensated if their land is acquired. This is a problem I intend to discuss with the EC and the Department.

On noise levels, the amendment to the Bill should solve that problem.

Mr. Finucane

I understand that farmers are compensated when their land is acquired and that if a person's house is situated near a new roadway that person is relocated. However, I am referring to the person who in many cases lives adjacent to that road. I am aware of cases where this has happened. When these roads are being designed it is obvious which houses will be affected. Those people cannot be ignored and their good-will is required in this regard. There is much merit in compensating people for the effect of noise levels. Money should be set aside to ensure that if those people require double glazing to reduce the noise levels caused by the motorway traffic that will be provided. That would avoid confrontation at a later stage when they complain to the council about the problem of noise and are told there are no funds to deal with that problem.

Acting Chairman

Before calling Deputy Boylan I must remind Deputies we are dealing with an amendment from the Seanad, and, therefore, the debate should not become too wide.

Mr. Boylan

I support the case being made by Deputy Finucane and I take on board what the Minister said in relation to compensation. It is not a straightforward matter of acquiring land from a farmer and stating that land valuations are so much. One must look at the farm and the enterprise and determine what possible inconvenience will be caused by dividing the farm. A dairy farm may be divided down the middle. A grazing field of ten acres may be divided and cattle will have to be driven across the highway. Acquiring land that is needed to build a road is not the end of the problem. The Minister, who is a rural Deputy, will be aware of that factor which should be taken on board. I fully subcribe to the notion of compensating business people. Too often I have seen family businesses, which had been built up over many years, being destroyed following the construction of a ring road or a by-pass. That is unacceptable.

In regard to petrol filling stations, if a new road is being constructed which bypasses that facility there should be an onus on the local authority to provide a site for the person concerned to develop a similar business near the new road. Either a cash compensation should be offered or the owner should be provided with an alternative site for the business. This would be a reasonable course to follow and it would reduce the need for compulsory purchase orders.

Mrs. Doyle

Will the Minister consider extending the funding by his Department to local authorities for the maintenance of national primary route lighting? This matter relates to the efficiency, economy and quality of the construction and maintenance of roads. At present the capital cost of national primary route lighting is funded by the Department and Structural Funds. However, the ongoing maintenance cost of national primary route lighting, which is a very heavy burden, has to be met by local authorities, who have no financial base. It seems ironic, given the high standards that must be met to ensure safety and efficiency on our national primary routes, that responsibility for maintenance of national primary route lighting does not rest with the Department.

I welcome the Minister's commitment to consider the question of compensating businesses who find themselves cut off as a result of the construction of new national roads. I am sure the Minister is very conscious of the problems in Barntown in our constituency of Wexford where two commercial premises will experience major difficulties with the realignment of the N25 and at Ballinaboola where several business will be cut off. As matters stand these businesses will not be entitled to compensation. A reasonable and rational approach should be taken in these cases. I urge the Minister of State to pursue the matter with the Minister and any other authority as may be necessary to ensure an equitable resolution to these difficulties. I welcome the fact that we are receiving more and more European money to spend on upgrading and realigning our national primary and secondary routes.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): Since taking office in this Department I have considered the latter matter, which has posed a particular problem. The people in Barntown and Ballinaboola are unhappy in that they will lose out as a result of road improvements in that area. As regards lighting, I appreciate there has been a difficulty in this regard. The National Roads Authority, which will begin operation next year, will receive a block grant and will have power to allocate money for road lighting and road maintenance.

Mrs. Doyle

Road lighting maintenance.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): It will be the function of the National Roads Authority to decide on necessary improvements in a particular area.

Mrs. Doyle

Perhaps the Minister would encourage the Authority to think along those lines. As a former member of a local authority he knows the difficulties involved.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): As soon as the National Roads Authority is set up discussions will take place on that matter. I appreciate there is a difficulty for the local authority in Wexford in trying to maintain national route lighting. On the question of compensation it is difficult to find a balance. In the area of land acquisition, landowners sometimes agree with local authorities on the amount of compensation to be paid. When agreement cannot be reached the matter goes to arbitration where the market value is agreed. In deciding the value, questions such as disturbance and whether cattle have to cross a road are taken into account. However, this system does not always ensure a happy ending, particularly in regard to underpasses and roadways. Difficulties arise in that in some cases the Department refuses to grant underpasses while in others they allow them to go ahead. For example, in New-townmountkennedy underpasses have been approved, whereas in Enniscorthy and other parts of the country they have not been approved.

Mrs. Doyle

Will the Minister indicate what are the departmental criteria in relation to underpasses and pedestrian flyovers? There seems to be a discrepancy in terms of the granting of permission in these cases. I understand that underpasses will be approved for the N25 at Barntown although they were refused in Enniscorthy. Farmers in that area find they have split holdings and must bring animals from one side of a Euroroute to another. Why in some cases are underpasses and flyovers acceptable while in other cases they are not?

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): From dealing with the Department in the past, the criteria are laid down on the basis of safety. There is an anomaly in that in Barntown underpasses will be approved while they were refused in Enniscorthy, a decision with which the people there are dissatisfied.

Mrs. Doyle

The people in Barntown are very pleased.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): I will see if there are defined criteria in this area or whether the matter is decided on the basis of the number of landowners on a roadside.

Acting Chairman

Now that Wexford matters have been sorted out, let us hear from Deputy Helen Keogh from Dún Laoghaire.

Ms Keogh

Let us get back to the Bill now.

Mrs. Doyle

These matters are very relevant.

Ms Keogh

They may be relevant to the Deputy, but not to me. I realise that local matters are often raised here; indeed, I have raised them myself and one always takes the opportunity to do so. The Minister said that the National Roads Authority will have discretion in deciding on the allocation of moneys for lighting and so on. I ask the Minister to bring to the attention of the National Roads Authority the debates that have taken place on this matter. Even if amendments were not accepted on certain elements of the Bill, the various misgivings should be brought to the attention of the relevant authority because it is very important that it is aware of the misgivings of people involved in local authorities.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): When the new Authority is set up it will be made aware of the views of this House. The interim Authority in operation at present closely follows debates here and in the Seanad and it is likely that some of the people on that Authority will be members of the new Authority. That decision has not been made yet.

Mr. Boylan

The Minister said Deputy Doyle and Deputy Keogh were slightly parochial, but these matters will be repeated nationwide. Of concern to my region, although not in my constituency, and I am not being parochial——

Acting Chairman

We are not building a road.

Mrs. Doyle

We are filling the potholes in Cavan.

Mr. Boylan

They will be filled if the figures I quote are taken on board.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): The Deputy's area will receive priority this year.

Mr. Boylan

National primary and secondary routes comprise 6 per cent of the total road network, while regional and county roads — and we experience major problems with county roads — comprise 94 per cent of the total road network. Yet the 6 per cent which carries 37 per cent of traffic receives 54 per cent of all moneys, while the 94 per cent which carries 63 per cent of traffic receives only 46 per cent of all moneys. How can that be explained to people who are up to their ears in potholes, people who do not come within an asses roar of my county? I would welcome the distribution of money on the basis of the volume of traffic using the roads. That would mean a transfer of £58 million to county and secondary roads. It would be a fair distribution of EC and departmental moneys and would solve the problem. Perhaps the Minister would comment on that matter.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): Successive Governments in the last ten years agreed that key routes would be upgraded and developed in the interests of the economy. Because we are a peripheral nation we want to ensure our goods are transported quickly. I appreciate that there is a difficulty on secondary and county roads. Cavan and Monaghan have been given priority by the Department of the Environment this year. The increased allocations should solve some of the problems there.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 5:

Section 20: In page 24, subsection (5) (a), line 41, "decide to" deleted.

This is a drafting amendment to remove any doubt that the National Roads Authority can perform the function itself where a local authority fails or refuses to comply with a direction to carry out that function.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 6:

Section 62: In page 58, between lines 14 and 15, the following paragraph inserted:

"(c) such other classes of vehicles or road users as the Minister may prescribe in relation to toll roads generally, specified classes of toll roads or specified toll roads.".

In response to an amendment in the Seanad that road users with special needs be exempt from paying tolls, I moved an amendment which would allow the Minister to make regulations extending the list of exemptions. The original amendment referring to road users with special needs was too vague to form the basis for an exemption from tolls. A potential private investor would need to be very clear about what classes of vehicles or road users were exempt because it would have a real impact on expected toll revenue and because it would raise questions as to the practical arrangements for identifying exempt vehicles or road users. The existing exemptions have the merit of being clear and precise. This new amendment should improve things. It was argued in the Dáil and the Seanad that the Minister should have this power.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 7:

Section 72: In page 66, subsection (3) (a) (iv), line 41, before "fee""specified" inserted.

This is simply a drafting amendment that requires that a public notice of the preparation of draft by-laws controlling skips should indicate the specific cost of buying a copy of those by-laws. This change brings us into line with similar provisions in the Bill.

Mrs. Doyle

Will the Minister specify if this relates to the new road authority or the Minister?

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): It is intended to allow local authorities to draw up their own by-laws on skips. In both Houses the danger of unlit skips in towns and villages was pointed out. Because of that it has been decided to give total control of the implementation of the by-laws to local authorities.

Ms Keogh

The Minister's point is well made. This danger was referred to in both Houses.

Mrs. Doyle

I am concerned about what I understand to be an EC Directive affecting roadside trading. I am not talking about big commercial ventures but about local people selling local produce such as strawberries or potatoes in season. I accept that unlit skips are dangerous but I understand the local produce seller wishes to be involved in a daytime operation during normal sunlight hours and I assume that a dangerous structure would not be left during the night nor would such traders be parked on a dangerous bend or corner. What is the Department's view? Am I right in thinking that an EC Directive is about to be imposed on us to eliminate what is part and parcel of the character of rural life? I hope we will not take European bureaucracy to madness in banning what adds to the colour, the pleasure and enjoyment of country life for so many people.

Acting Chairman

I would remind Deputies that we are dealing with a very specific amendment from the Seanad and I am afraid that some of the things mentioned do not relate to it.

Mr. Boylan

There are points that need to be emphasised in case people will ask, "Why did you not hammer that message home when you had the opportunity?".

Acting Chairman

The Chair is not supposed to allow that.

Mr. Boylan

This matter came up on Committee Stage of the Roads Bill and I understood that there would be no difficulty with regard to traditional selling of farm produced. Outside of Dublin, I regularly see a young chap whom I admire engaged in this business. No matter how early I come to Dublin, that young lad is there doing business. This man parks in a very safe place. I accept that it should be a condition that a person does not just pull up on the hard shoulder. We do not want to get so tied up with EC legislation that we ban young people from earning pocket money or perhaps income for the farm in this way.

Indiscriminate parking of skips certainly must be ruled out. We cannot make it impossible for a person to go into the business of collecting refuse although such work would have to be regulated. Included in the area of unlit skips are unlit parked lorries which are extremely dangerous for road users. I will support any regulations to control that but I would not ban the use of skips in their proper place for the collection of refuse and I would not ban traditional farm produce selling.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): There is no question of banning the use of skips. We are giving the power to local authorities to introduce by-laws to control the operation of skips. This Bill does not impact on those who sell strawberries or potatoes or any other fruit on the roadside. I have not heard anything about an EC Directive but I will have it checked out. The Casual Trading Act lists what is exempt and what is not and that is implemented by the Department of Enterprise and Employment. I will check with that Department to confirm that there is no EC Directive and I will notify the Deputy.

Question put and agreed to.

Amendments reported and agreed to.