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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 22 Jun 1993

Vol. 432 No. 6

Private Members' Business. - Wildlife Bill, 1993: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

It is significant and a vindication of the democratic process that an Independent Member is enabled to move legislation in this manner. It is a particular privilege for me to present to this House a measure which, if accepted in principle in whole or in part, will advance an area of immense public concern and interest—the welfare of the vulnerable and defenceless in nature's creation. It is a measure that will hopefully help bring to an end the medieval barbarity of live hare coursing. I move this Bill first and foremost in the interests of Animal Welfare, in an attempt to remove the most blatant form of extreme cruelty to a timid and inoffensive animal. I also move this Bill in the interest of the international reputation of Ireland. As long as the Legislature permits the appalling cruelty of live hare coursing Ireland's image as a civilised country will be, and is being, tarnished in a most damaging manner.

In recent weeks important steps have been taken to achieve one of the priority objectives of the Programme for a Partnership Government, that is, to modernise and humanise our laws, and another such step will be taken this week. It is therefore an appropriate time to confront yet a further aspect of Irish society that has been swept under the political carpet for much too long.

I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy but I would like to know if it is his intention to share his time.

No, it is not. Ireland is almost alone among modern democracies that continue to keep in force legislation which gives legal sanction to the torture, mutilation and killing of animals as a public spectacle, what we call live hare coursing. What I ask in this Bill is for acceptance of what every Member of this House knows to be the truth: that this practice is barbaric, cruel and wrong and that the law must be changed. I readily accept that many rural Members have come under great pressure to oppose the Bill. I know that coursing clubs can be powerful entrenched groups in many rural constituencies. I equally accept that I am not under any such pressure. What I ask — it is no small request — is that Members decide for themselves whether there is need to change this cruel practice. If they decide there is such a need, in the interests of justice I ask them not to oppose this Bill on Second Stage.

I want to describe in a little detail what is involved in live hare coursing and I want to be accurate and objective. While I have been a reluctant observer at coursing meetings, attending on behalf of the Irish Council Against Blood Sports, and while I found what I witnessed to be obscene, I want to avoid encouraging other Members to accuse me of exaggerating or being pejudiced. I simply wish to state that what I saw strengthened my resolve to do something about coursing. Rather than detail my own observations I intend to quote from published accounts by two reputable journalists who attended the national coursing meeting in Clonmel in 1992. The first account contains direct quotes from an article by Dick Hogan in The Irish Times of 12 February 1992. It states:

The hare is a quiet, shy little animal, that feels pain as acutely as any human being would. How do I know this? I know it because I have heard the demented screams of hares who failed to make it to the protective barrier at various coursing meetings and who wound up instead in the jaws of competing greyhounds.

Earlier, they had been competing in the chase for the hare — that's coursing. Now, they were competing to tear the live animal apart, and that is something else again, something on which the coursing authorities are not inclined to dwell.

When the dogs catch the hare in this fashion they become frenzied monsters, and only blood and torn flesh satisfy their gaping jaws. To avoid this, the handlers must try to get in early to deliver the coup de grace, a chop to the back of the hare's neck.

Usually, though, before this happens, the diminutive animal has experienced such awful, terrorising pain that, in its death throes, it emits a piercing, agonised scream.

Coursing is a cruel sport, if it is a sport at all, and that, nobody can deny.

It is so cruel at times, that nowadays the officials who administer it do their level best to ensure that neither the public nor the press will get action pictures of the kill. They would be embarrassed by such photographs because the sight of the helpless hare in the jaws of two big dogs is not a pretty one.

Rather, to most people, it is disgusting and offensive to Christian values. Which is why it would be nice to hear those clergymen who support coursing so enthusiastically explain their position.

Maybe that is something we should all do. Mine is that shooting a pheasant, or a hare for that matter, for food, or taking a trout from the river, or eating meat, if that is what you fancy, is perfectly all right, and I would do any of these things without apologising. Neither would I enter into an argument about it because I do not feel I have anything to defend.

Those who run ferocious dogs after small, inoffensive and terrified animals, like hares, do, however, because that in effect, is torturing creatures who are being used as live bait.

Those who remain unconvinced should go to one of the two February meetings to see for themselves.

More specifically, to listen for themselves. Having once heard a hare dying all doubts would be dispelled.

The second account contains direct quotes from an article by Tom Humphries in The Irish Times of 8 February 1992. It states:

Ostensibly the contest is between dog and dog. For many, including the animals, the contest is between hare and dogs and, as such, seems grotesquely unbalanced. Greyhounds travel considerably faster than hares and in enclosed coursing are presented with all the advantages, an open field, a long run, a hare that has been in captivity for three weeks and has been trained to run in a straight line.

Eventually, in the course of an evasive manoeuvre from one dog, the hare veers almost straight into the jaws of the other. The dog drives its head down and flips the hare in the air. The crowd fall silent. On the TV monitor the commentator announces that "the hare has been spotted" and the camera flashes away.

Two dogs fight over their spoil, each tugging away. Attendants run in from the wings to separate them. Carried on the wind over the silence, is the appalling agonised bleating of the hare, as the dogs struggle for possession.

The dogs are difficult to separate from their prey and the scene drags on for several slow seconds after the human intervention. One dog jogs away with a leg in his mouth. An attendant is left with another leg. The rest of the squealing hare is prised from the other dog and another blue anoracked man breaks its neck with a decisive silence-inducing jerk of the arm. The public address system announces a deadpan: "And the winner of that course was...".

Coursing people are a breed under siege. Faces turn to you with wearied recognition, sizing you up with simmering hostility.

A small primaeval, shameful quarter of the mind even demanded the spectacle, while the rest objected.

What truly shocked, though, was seeing the sport in its essence. Breaking down the components makes coursing hard to justify, intellectually, and morally.

Capturing hares and keeping them for a number of weeks, training them to run in a straight line and then exposing them to greyhounds whose objective is to kill is an odd sort of pastime. One animal is trained to run straight, while the stronger, faster animals are trained to catch it.... The world is full of obscenities.

Sports, though, should be free of such bloodstains. Sport should enhance humanity not degrade it.

I have quoted from what I consider to be works of exceptional journalistic merit, but perhaps I should quote briefly the Editor of The Irish Times, Mr. Conor Brady, who in a letter to an anti-bloodsports lobbyist on 8 February, 1993 stated:

The Irish Times is opposed to live hare coursing and has repeatedly said so in its editorial columns. As a matter of routine we cover some meetings each year photographically in order to remind readers of the reality of what we regard — and have described repeatedly — as a cruel and unjustified activity.

Regarding my attendance at coursing meetings, as an observer, I did not attend high profile premier events like Clonmel and Clounanna. Instead, I went to isolated local events such as Ballymore, County Westmeath, in November 1991. What I and another observer saw there provoked a letter to the press from which I will quote a short extract. The letter was in The Irish Times on November 29 1991. It said:

During the first half of the event a hare turned towards us and tried to escape between the cars, but two young boys, no more than 14 years old, shouted and shooed the poor desperate hare back into the jaws of the dogs. Both dogs caught the hare simultaneously and tugged wildly at the screaming victim, then one of the dogs succeeded in catching the prize by the neck and ran with it into the field, with the hare desperately working its back legs to get free. The dog was caught by an "official" who took the still struggling hare and finished it off with two blows to the head.

I was very shocked at the reaction of the two children. I had thought that they would stay silent or would step back and encourage the hare to escape. Sadly that was not the case. Exposing children to such cruelty and conditioning them to accept it as normal is very damaging. The Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals in a joint leaflet with the Irish Council Against Bloodsports recently pointed out:

When young people are allowed to witness such violence towards animals, it is a signal that such violence is acceptable, indeed desirable, since the Irish Coursing Club insists that coursing is actually of benefit to the environment (though they never explain exactly how). Any exposure to violence in any form is likely to raise the tolerance threshold of those who witness it, making acceptance of further violence easier. The cruelty of coursing is institutionalised legal violence, endorsed by the Government. It is no longer acceptable to the overwhelming majority of ordinary, decent people. Unfortunately, coursing has a considerable following among politicians and the clergy. We are particularly concerned that the clergy is so intimately involved, since young people look to them for moral guidance, and the clear message will be that the abuse of animals for fun is okay.

A few years ago an American psychiatrist, Dr. Boris Levinson found a strong connection between children's violence to animals and their subsequent violence to people.

"Once the barriers that stop you hurting another creature have been broken down" says Ms. Christine Donaghy of Children at Risk in Ireland, "it's only a short step to killing. And the difference between harming a small child, and going the extra bit that stops the child breathing and kills it, is very slight". "You can't really blame it all on videos or television" says psychologist, Ms. Geraldine McLoughlin, "It's all about power and control, whether they are torturing animals or other children, a common factor is a complete lack of empathy with the victim."

If we as a society were to promote care and affection for animals and an abhorrence of any form of cruelty we would all be the better for it. That is why I have moved the Second Stage of this Bill.

What I have referred to so far is in the context of live hare coursing being organised in accordance with the rules and standards as set down by law. Coursing is callous, cruel and indefensible even when the regulations are applied in full, but in recent years, scandal after scandal has disgraced even its most public events. In 1990 half of the greyhounds tested at the showpiece fixtures of Clonmel and Clounanna were positive for prohibited substances. Put simply, they were doped. The drugs were administered either orally or through injections.

Coursing clubs have been monitored and prosecuted for taking hares from the wild, outside the open season, without the required licences. Coursing clubs and events have used small, weak and even sick hares, in breach of licence conditions. At least one such club, the Moate-Tubber Club was banned from coursing for three years as a result. At the 1992 premier event in Clonmel, 37, hares died — 20 per cent of those coursed — and a post mortem investigation established that they were extremely ill suffering from coccidiosis and worm infestation.

At Clounanna, the same year, a higher percentage, 25 per cent of hares died. The ICC by way of explanation to the Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Walsh, stated that this was due to "adverse weather conditions". Anyone with even the slightest interest in animals or in coursing knows what happened at Clounanna the following year. Fortyeight hares died. Some reports say 51 died.

The Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Walsh, stated in the Dáil that "this situation is quite unacceptable". His Department ordered a major investigation. A report on events at Clounanna in 1993 is now with the Director of Public Prosecutions.

Even the ICC was forced to state publicly that the standard of coursing there was totally unacceptable to the ICC and to supporters of coursing. This happened at coursing's showpiece, their high profile National Irish Cup meeting. If standards are so unacceptable at national events under the full glare of publicity, what goes on at local events? Indeed, what happens behind the scenes, outside of the publicly organised events? What happens is called "blooding".

The Cork Examiner on 11 September 1992 reported the following under the head-line: “Two found guilty of blooding a greyhound by using a live hare”:

Two men were convicted in Tipperary yesterday of blooding a greyhound by means of a live hare.

Joe O'Reilly, Rathmooley, Killenaule, and Willie Denn, Clonagoose, Mullinahone, both pleaded guilty at Killenaule Court to having in their possession a protected wild animal, a hare, on September 9, 1991, at Mountaylor.

However, they pleaded not guilty to injuring the animal.

Padraig Comerford, wild life ranger, said he went to the lands of Matt O'Donnell on September 9, following reports of greyhounds being blooded by live hares. He saw Willie Denn carry a box containing a live hare the length of the track. Joe O'Reilly put a greyhound into a trap release box.

Witness realised what was going to happen and ran towards Mr. Denn to try to rescue the hare. Mr. Denn was holding a live hare on a string. The greyhound, which had been released by Mr. O'Reilly, got to the hare before witness could. He heard the hare screech as the greyhound caught it.

Both defendants were employed by Matt O'Donnell at the time. The ranger claimed Matt O'Donnell abused him when he went to his house about the matter... Judge William Harnett convicted both men.

Lest the House think this was an isolated incident I might quote again from The Cork Examiner of 23 February 1989 under the heading “Men Fined after Appalling Act of Savagery on Rabbit”.

What was described as an appalling act of savagery, involving the "blooding" of two greyhounds in County Kerry on October 31 last, was outlined by Garda Inspector Michael O'Neill, at Tralee District Court yesterday. He told Justice Humphrey P. Kelleher how a rabbit was savaged by the greyhounds which had been taken to a field on the Tralee-Ardfert road by two men. The men, Christy Conway... and Michael O'Shea,... were each fined £20 when they pleaded guilty of permitting unnecessary suffering to the rabbit at Bawnboy on the occasion.

Inspector O'Neill, prosecuting, said that when they reached the field, O'Shea released the rabbit from a bag. One of the dogs pursued the rabbit and caught it. Both dogs then savaged the animal.

A local man saw what happened and informed the gardaí who found the two men a short time afterwards. Gardaí also saw the rabbit carcass and the head had been severed from the body. "This practice is known as blooding greyhounds — it was a most appalling act of savagery on a defenceless rabbit", stated the Inspector.

Mr. Donal O'Neill, solicitor, said that the defendants did not realise at the time that they were breaking the law. A very instructive observation, I must admit. The article continues: However, they co-operated fully with the gardaí and now realised that what they did was wrong.

Mr. O'Neill said both dogs were only ten months old. It was a pity, he went on, that the story, which was not quite accurate, was described in such a way.

Presumably the Garda inspector was not being accurate.

He added that the publicity would not do certain parties and sports organisations any good.

Incidentally, Matt O'Donnell, referred to in my first quotation is a very successful greyhound owner in Tipperary. When I discussed this case with a leading coursing enthusiast, a Member of the Oireachtas, he told me that such practice is widespread among the coursing community. I will not name that Member because it was a private conversation but it merely confirmed the worst fears of all of us who care about animals.

There is one additional point I might make regarding rules and standards. The view is promoted that hares are released back to the wild after each meeting and, therefore, are not re-coursed. However, the evidence, if anything, shows the opposite to be the case. For example, condition No. 7 of the licence for trapping hares states that "the hare may not be coursed more than once on the same day". Rule 86 of the Irish Coursing Club states: "It shall be an offence for a club to course a hare more than once on any day of coursing or trials". Therefore, the House will see it is not even illegal to recourse the same hares as long as it is not done on the same day. That is what our laws permit. In addition, most coursing meetings are not attended by officers of the Wildlife Service so that they do not witness the release of hares. Is it any wonder there is international revulsion at what is seen to be a backward, uncivilised and primeval practice?

Throughout Europe and the United States the name of the Irish greyhound industry is being severely damaged on account of its association with coursing which is illegal in most countries. In fact, the only countries who practice enclosed live hare coursing worldwide are Ireland, Portugal and Pakistan. In Australia, for example, live coursing is punishable by heavy fines and imprisonment whereas in Canada only drag coursing is permitted. In the United States greyhounds trained on live animals are liable to be barred from racing. A tough new law introduced in the State of Wisconsin means that no greyhound raised in Ireland will be eligible to compete there. Therefore, it seems likely that this will become the general approach throughout the United States. Animal welfare organisations and animal rights groups in Europe, Canada and the United States are advising all their members to organise a tourism boycott of Ireland. I have received hundreds of letters from branches throughout the United States confirming this; although I do not approve of it, it is a fact that that is happening. In addition, President Robinson last year received over 2,000 such letters.

As awareness of Ireland's association with cruelty to animals spreads, particularly in the United States and Canada, its negative impact on tourism will be significant. Yet, parodoxically in Ireland, opinion polls have shown that an overwhelming majority of our people are opposed to live coursing. For example, a 1987 IMS poll showed 79.4 per cent against; 11.5 per cent for and 9.9 per cent "do not knows". The ISPCA is one of the organisations supporting the campaign to outlaw live coursing here. They say, and I quote:

We are campaigning against coursing because it involves the killing of animals for fun. There is absolutely no justification for trapping hares, or any other animal, and using them to provide entertainment for a small minority who, for some unfathomable reason, enjoy seeing them being chased by dogs and fighting for their lives. It is a one-sided fight which many of the hares lose, to suffer a violent and cruel death. This is the nature of coursing.

The chief inspector of the Ulster SPCA, Mr. Norman Henry, stated, and I quote again:

It is a mediaeval sport, shameful and barbaric, and has no place in this century. It is sheer, unmitigated cruelty. There is nothing as heart-rending as listening to the cries of a hare being pulled apart by two greyhounds. This is on a par with dog fighting and the sooner it is made illegal the better.

In the last few weeks I have received dozens of cards and letters from all over Ireland supporting my attempt to change the law, the vast majority from people living in rural areas where coursing is strong.

I want to avail of this opportunity to pay tribute to the various groups, organisations and individuals who have been fighting a sometimes lonely and seemingly hopeless battle over many years to promote public awareness of and organised popular opposition to coursing. I might mention especially the Irish Council Against Blood Sports who have been a great source of inspiration and encouragement. I thank them for their untiring efforts in defence of the animal world.

I know that this House is deeply divided on the issue of coursing. However, almost everybody is in agreement that the greyhound industry is an important traditional one which has experienced great difficulty in recent years. It is my strong view that, if the cruelty and blood lust is taken out of the industry, as has been done in so many countries worldwide, the result will be that our greyhound industry will be enhanced and, perhaps more importantly, its world reputation will undoubtedly receive the major boost it so badly needs.

There is an interesting parallel in the State of Victoria in Australia where live hare coursing had been regarded as a traditional sport for more than 100 years. However, they grew up in 1965 when they introduced drag coursing — that is the use of mechanical lures — which has gone from strength to strength so that live hare coursing no longer takes place there. Drag coursing there varies in type from track to track. Most are of a type connected to a wire cable drawn down the centre of the track and returned at the end of each course in front of the slipper.

Perhaps the Minister might consider sending some of our coursing people to Australia — I am not suggesting he should leave them there—but simply to examine the changes a modern, civilised society has implemented successfully. The organisers of Austrialian drag coursing maintain that the system they use has great merits in preparing and sharpening up a greyhound for circle track racing. The experience there is but one example, worldwide, of the changes that could be introduced and implemented which would give a new and badly needed lease of life to our entire greyhound industry.

There has been some media speculation about the muzzling of greyhounds as a compromise move and today the Minister of State said he would eliminate "the kill" and eliminate the "suffering", presumably by muzzling the dogs. My position is that the use of live hares at coursing meetings is unacceptable. Hares are a protected species under the Irish Wildlife Act 1976. Capturing hares from the wild can in itself cause extreme cruelty. Only today I received a letter from a farming family in New Ross, County Wexford, which shows this to be the case. The letter states:

I am wondering if anyone has brought to the attention of the Members of the Dáil who will be voting on June 30th the awful plight of hares when they are being captured for coursing or used for training greyhounds. This happens regularly on our farm, we often find unfortunate hares which have been entangled in nets for some time, some have broken bones protruding, some of these wounds are festering. The only thing we can do with these animals is to have them humanely destroyed. We used to enjoy the company of between forty and sixty hares but now there are only three or four.

I feel that many people perhaps do not consider the number of hares killed and maimed before any of their fellows reach a coursing meeting. I hope these thoughts might help in the argument against hare coursing.

Another serious problem arises when the hares are penned in large numbers in enclosed and overcrowded conditions — disease can spread rapidly among them. This has been a feature of many recent coursing events where post mortems have shown the hares were ill and diseased.

Apart altogether from this, under section 1 (1) (a) of the Protection of Animals Act, 1911, it is an offence to "terrify" any animal. Will those who set muzzled greyhounds on hares be exempt from this offence? If there has to be such an exemption how can the Minister of State substantiate his claim today that he intends to eliminate "suffering" from coursing?

Hares suffer great fear when they are netted and kept in captivity as they are by nature wild, solitary animals. When trials, as they are known, are held to train the unfortunate hares for coursing meetings what guarantee would there be that the dogs would be muzzled? The answer is none and the Minister of State will not be able to offer any such guarantee.

Apart altogether from the terror involved, large muzzled dogs can cause injury to a timid little animal like the hare. What evidence have I got to prove this? The chief Executive of the Irish Coursing Club, Mr. Gerry Desmond, will probably regret that he was quoted in the Sunday Independent on 20 October 1991 in the “Quotes of the Week” column as saying:

There were, in fact, trials carried out by the Irish Coursing Club a number of years ago and it was found that the hares were being damaged by the muzzles. We felt that it led to suffering by the hares afterwards. When hares get injured they find it very difficult to recuperate from any form of injury.

If there is any exception which allows hares to be captured and taken from the wild it opens up the possibility of abuses like "blooding" and unauthorised coursing events being held without muzzling the dogs. As I said, muzzling would also terrorise the hares many of whom die of fright from the experience of coursing. The only acceptable civlised alternative is drag coursing where mechanical or scent impregnated lures are used.

I would like to thank the Members of all parties in this House who have joined with me in calling for a free vote on the issue. It would be a great day for democracy here if the main parties, particularly Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, consented to a free vote. The issue is not one of vital Government policy, national policy and, as far as I am aware, party policy. It is an issue on which there are mixed views and opinions some strongly held by individual members of all parties. It would be a sign of the maturity of Dáil Éireann if a free vote was granted. The British Parliament last year granted a free vote on the wider issue of all blood sports. It was truly an example of real democracy in action. There should be room for the same in Dáil Éireann. There is still an opportunity to show that maturity. The tragedy is that if there is no free vote then the desire of a majority of Members of Dáil Éireann for change will be perverted.

There is one reasonable alternative, that is, that on Second Stage at least the Bill should not be opposed. That would signify, in principle at least, that there is a need for change. On Committee Stage, the extent of the change required could be decided or an alternative Government Bill could be introduced. The Dáil is said to have "grown up" recently with regard to certain issues. It is time to grow up on this matter also. A society that permits and specifically enacts laws to promote cruelty and the torture and killing of animals is something we must leave behind us. It is no longer tolerable or justifiable as we move towards the end of the 20th century.

Perhaps the House would be interested to know how our neighbours in the British Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly have behaved on this issue. In 1976, the Labour Government in the United Kingdom gave parliamentary time to a Private Members' Bill for the abolition of hare coursing. The Bill received majorities of more than 100 on each of its Stages in the House of Commons but, unfortunately, the unelected blood sports lobby in the House of Lords managed to delay and defeat the measure. The minority Labour Government fell before it could invoke the Parliament Act to override the Lords' tactics. A recent poll of MPs has revealed that of MPs responding 85 per cent would support the abolition of hare coursing. The Labour and Liberal Democrats parties are both committed to outlaw coursing as well as other forms of hunting and killing with dogs and a growing number of Conservative MPs have joined in the campaign.

In October 1984, the British Government refused to ban hare coursing in the North despite the fact that the Northern Ireland Assembly twice appealed for an outright ban. In the two Assembly debates there was unanimous all-party support for a motion to make park hare coursing, that is, enclosed hare coursing, illegal. My references are the Belfast Newsletter of 11 October 1984 and the Down Recorder of 2 August 1984.

Last week the annual conference of the Methodist Church discussed the Bill before us. On 18 June they wrote to the Taoiseach as follows:

The Conference understands that a Private Members' Bill on the subject of enclosed hare coursing will shortly come before the Oireachtas. In the opinion of the Conference the practice of enclosed hare coursing clearly involves unnecessary suffering to defenceless animals, and it requests that members of your Party be allowed freedom of conscience in voting on this Bill.

I would like to quote the following from a letter written by a very special person in her 89th year on 4 March 1967:

In my letter to the press I invoked the names of my two brothers Padraic and Willie and I was absolutely correct in affirming that they would both have been totally opposed to the inhuman treatment meted out to the innocent little hares at the coursing matches. At all times during their lives they were kind to dumb animals and Padraic's writings gave many instances of his love for animals and birds. I am certain that were they alive today they would be foremost in condemning coursing for the sadistic spectacle it is.

That letter is signed, "Yours sincerely, Margaret M. Pearse, Senator".

I wish to conclude by quoting the following from the editorial in today's issue of The Irish Times:

But hare coursing is an issue which does not bear comparison with any other likely to arise in this State. To allow a free vote on it would not be to establish a precedent. Nor can anyone claim to be unaware of the facts of the case: they are brutally clear. The contest is supposed to be between dog and dog. In reality, it is between two dogs and a hare; and only the hare can lose, and the penalty for losing is to be torn limb from limb. To call this a sport is an insult to sport.

The editorial concluded:

Irish politics and politicians need not disgrace themselves again.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Dermot Ahern.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the opportunity to debate coursing and its relationship with the greyhound industry. Unfortunately, this debate is taking place against a backdrop of very unfair and ill-informed criticism of those involved with greyhounds and the field sport of coursing. It is an absolute injustice to suggest, or imply, as people in some quarters have done, that people who participate in coursing are uncivilised. This is a totally untrue and unfair reflection on those involved in the sport. The suggestion that coursing is a blood sport is also a serious distortion of the truth. In fact, coursing is the only game sport where the objective is not to kill the quarry.

No one should forget that coursing is about people and a way of life in rural Ireland. Some very remote rural areas would remain remote if it was not for the coursing club. People in small rural communities come together over many weeks to organise and run their coursing meetings. Such meetings often provide a very vibrant focal point for community life. Preparation for the coursing meeting begins many weeks in advance when hares are netted and brought to the coursing fields. The hares are treated for fluke and other diseases, their feet are treated, they are properly fed and, above all, they are trained for the coursing meeting.

(Interruptions.)

I would appreciate if I was given the same attention I gave to the previous speaker.

This process takes considerable time and is all done on a voluntary basis. Trials are run for the owners of track dogs or young dogs being prepared for the track. On the day of the meeting a warm welcome is extended to all those who attend from all parts of Ireland, North and South, and Great Britain. After the meeting in the local hostelry every course is re-run, every turn is debated and every decision questioned into the early hours of the morning. Comparisons with the meetings of previous years, the improvements needed and the plans for next year are all considered.

Do Deputies want to deny these people the many long hours of enjoyment they spend over a pint or by the fireside on a winter's night reliving those memories, including stories about the legendary Dick Ryan from Goold's Cross in County Tipperary who won the Waterloo Cup for Ireland after many years with Himalayan Climber or stories about big gambles which were brought off? Do Deputies want to take away the camaraderie which has been built up over the years——

Blood money.

——with our friends from Northern Ireland and Great Britain? The coursing fields of Ireland have brought Catholics, Protestants and dissenters together and created friendships and bonds which have never been broken. It should be remembered that it is not unusual for a person from the farthest point in Northern Ireland to appear at the door of a greyhound owner in, for example, north Kerry or north Cork wanting to buy a pair of greyhound pups or a pair of saplings.

Coursing clubs, and the people involved with greyhounds, generally are the real hare conservationists as without them the hare population would not be nearly as high as it is today in Ireland. These people have fought against disease with substantial funding from the Irish Coursing Club, reduced considerably the amount of in-breeding of hares and protected the preserves from unscrupulous people who come out from cities and large towns with anything up to 12 dogs to course hares illegally. At no stage are the "antis" around to tackle those people, but genuine local people with a real interest in the sport are there throughout the year. We should remember also that there are hare shoots in Britain, where up to 1,500 hares can be shot in one day. This is essentially because coursing is curtailed there and alternative forms of sport have taken its place.

I should like to quote the following long excerpt from a speech made by a former Lord Mayor of Clonmel many years ago:

Every country has its own distinctive traditions — traditions in culture, music, literature, the crafts. Likewise each country has its own tradition of sport which make each country unique and different.

They have been built up over hundreds of years and any society that discards them lightly, out of hand will not be looked upon too kindly by future generations. So, too, Ireland is steeped in tradition and one of the great sporting traditions of rural Ireland has always been coursing.

I specifically mention rural Ireland because only someone from the land or connected with the land at some stage, can normally fully understand the laws which govern nature, where animals are born to hunt and be hunted as naturally as night follows day.

Without this understanding how can one appreciate the exhilaration and spectacle of a hare in full flight using its natural skill and dexterity to reduce a brace of well fed stout-hearted greyhounds into a mere gasping, stumbling and exhausted pair of animals.

Sometimes the reverse will happen and the hare will not survive, but that is the pattern through which nature has unfolded since the beginning of time and man is allowed very little say in its overall plan.

To try to explain this to people whose only brush with nature is a Sunday afternoon walk through a city park or a motoring trip through the countryside on a summer evening, is tantamount to trying to stem the flow of a raging torrent with a shovel and should not be attempted.

Coursing people are a breed unto themselves. You must be born into the fold. Conversions are not common.

That long but elegant and eloquent quotation sums up how many coursing supporters feel about their sport.

Those who say that coursing neither plays nor should never play any part in the greyhound industry have never bred, owned, trained or raced a greyhound and are often totally ignorant of what it takes to bring a dog to the point of racing. It would appear that some people believe that the greyhound racing industry begins and ends on a Saturday night in Shel-bourne Park. To suggest that greyhounds are bred to automatically chase the electric lure or a drag is another display of ignorance of the sport. There are very few dogs, if any, that have not required hunting or coursing in the early months of life or at least before 14-16 months. Dogs are generally coursed after the live hare in order to get them to chase the electric hare on the track.

The demand for the Irish-bred greyhound is becoming greater every year, in particular, from countries where hare coursing does not take place, including the USA and Australia. One of the reasons for this is that the dog with the coursing strain or bloodlines is stronger, tougher, faster and has greater stamina. This has increased the demand for dogs with a coursing strain, in particular, Irish dams. The records show that over the past ten years, 77 per cent of major track events in Britain and Ireland were won by dogs with coursing in their bloodline.

The importance of the industry to the economy and to employment cannot be underestimated or swept under the carpet by the "antis". An independent survey has shown that the value of coursing to the economy is in excess of £14 million, notwithstanding the numbers employed as trainers and assistants, veterinary surgeons and their assistants. The spin-off employment in specialised dog-feed, medication, tonics, collars and leads, covers, car-trailers, and so on cannot be ignored. Hotels and guest-houses benefit greatly also, particularly as it is in off-season that coursing takes place.

This is only a very small part of the industry that is clearly identified. Behind the scene the industry involves thousands of others. It is estimated that 8,000 people are involved in the industry as breeders, owners and trainers, together with those employed on racing tracks and involved in supplying ancillary services, leaving a total of 10,000 people who derive a livelihood directly or indirectly from the industry.

As far as I am concerned, the present campaign by the "antis" is only the thin end of the wedge. Hunting, fishing, shooting and beagling and other field game sports will be next. I will now quote an extract from a radio interview on 20 August 1992 concerning angling. The presenter asked the question: "Are you saying then that all angling should be banned?" The participant, an "anti" said: "I certainly am because angling is a bloodsport just like foxhunting and shooting." I wonder what Jack Charlton would say to that.

Put them under pressure.

I am quite sure that when the case for coursing and its importance to the greyhound industry is explained in a balanced way to the House and to the public in general, as I have sought to do, people will reject the activities of the "antis" and their attempts to hand on their values and views to the rural community. Are the Members of this House going to allow a small group of ill-informed anti-bloodsports people——

Seventy nine per cent of the people.

——to destroy the livelihoods and way of life of so many? It is obvious that the fall-back position of the "antis" is to settle for the abolition of enclosed hare coursing. This is a trap no one should fall into.

Especially hares.

Those of us from rural areas are well aware that due to the major changes in farming over the years, it is not possible to have as many "open meetings" as it was 40 years ago. However, even those who run "open coursing meetings" have encountered serious difficulties with the "antis" and their fellow travellers. Landowners were threatened that their haybarns would be burned and their property interfered with if they allowed coursing to take place over their lands — lands that were coursed for over 100 years. These threats have been made to landowners who themselves do not participate in the sport but who simply allow the use of their land. Imagine how much more vulnerable landowners would be if there were only "open coursing meetings". There have also been threats to scatter nails and glass over enclosed coursing fields. This has been threatened — and there is good evidence to suggest it happened — without any regard whatsoever for the animals who graze those lands for the other 50 weeks of the year. I wonder how principled are these people in their positions when they can attract a lunatic fringe of this type.

The Irish Coursing Club has organised coursing in Ireland since 1916. They do so on a thirty-two counties basis. As an organisation they have much to commend them. However, what happened at Clounanna was an unmerciful debacle condemned by coursing supporters and detractors alike. The time has come for the Irish Coursing Club to review its own practices to see in what way it can improve the organising and running of coursing meetings.

I call on all Deputies in this House to reject this Bill because what is called for would have a devastating effect on many people in rural Ireland. It would destroy a rural tradition of generations and above all it would irreparably damage the greyhound industry.

Let us not do this but let all those involved work together to improve the sport and eliminate any bad practices which have crept in over the years.

Sir, I thank you for the opportunity to contribute to this debate. Having listened to the two previous speakers, I am not sure where I fit in but let me make it quite clear that I hold no brief for either side. Personally, I would not engage in this activity and a great many hold a similar view. We in this House have been accused of absolutism, particularly in relation to the abortion referendum and the "X" case and, with all due respects to the previous two speakers, we have had another case of absolutism, a case of black or white. I wonder if there is a middle ground.

Deputy Gregory has taken the opportunity during Private Members' time to introduce this Bill. I listened to him put his case and he listed a number of successful prosecutions and impending prosecutions against people who have defaulted, abused hares or abused the system. The fact that he can instance cases seems to indicate that somebody is monitoring the situation and prosecutions are being taken. It must be acknowledged that the Department of Argiculture, Food and Forestry veterinary inspectors and people involved in the sport are willing to prosecute. Let me reiterate that I would not engage in coursing but that is my personal opinion and it is the right of every citizen in the country, within the parameters laid down by Members in this Chamber to conduct our affairs as we see fit.

There is other proposed legislation that some Members in this House may not necessarily agree with but we have certain standards and norms that we should strive to keep. It is up to us to put our rules in place and to dictate the type of society we want. I understand that a very large percentage of the population are interested in the greyhound industry and in coursing and that should be facilitated, but if there is unwarranted cruelty in any shape or form, either to hares or other animals, that should be dealt with properly. As I said earlier, Deputy Gregory has acknowledged that there have been successful prosecutions and there are impending prosecutions, so a system of monitoring is taking place in the State. We have often heard: "we are damned if we do and we are damned if we do not". That could be very aptly said in relation to this topic. Like Deputy Gregory, I received umpteen letters from people who are anti-blood sports but equally I received umpteen letters and communications from people in favour of it. No matter what we do we are damned but we have a duty to put in standards, norms and rules which are in the best interests and desires of this State.

I was a member of the Joint Committee on Commercial State-Sponsored Bodies which spent much time debating the greyhound industry. There were some very difficult topics which we had to examine at that time, one of which was the Sugar Company and all that debacle, but the most divisive debate which took place in that committee was the debate between the various interests not only within the industry but from outside the industry, as opposed to the industry. The committee produced a report which gives some food for thought.

Because I know very little about the greyhound industry I made it my business, a number of years ago, to go to a number of meetings. Like Deputy Gregory, I tried to go without any prior warning to the people organising the meetings. Those meetings were in my constituency and immediately I arrived I was recognised. The meetings were in progress when I arrived. I was on tenterhooks hoping against hope that no hare would be killed. As it happened, maybe it was a fluke, no hare was killed. I genuinely felt the hare had an advantage over the greyhounds. Some people may say, "It was because you were there that no hares were killed," but I do not accept that. The people organising this event did not know I was coming; in fact, I arrived late at both meetings and no hares were killed. I was very surprised at the type of person who attended the meetings. I knew most of those people and they did not appear to be bloodthirsty or cruel in any way. I was impressed by the way in which the meetings were run and particularly by the organisation and how they took care of the hares. I was shown exactly what they do both before and after the meetings. That may not happen all over the country and I am not making any boast for my own constituency. All I am saying is that I made it my business to go to see a hare course meeting, knowing full well that this Bill or some similar Bill would come before the House in the future.

From the standpoint of virtual ignorance of the sport I asked at the time whether it was possible to muzzle the dogs. The reaction I got was that perhaps it was but they did not feel the actual chase would be like what it was if the greyhounds were muzzled. I understand from media reports — and I have no prior knowledge — that the Minister is investigating the possibility of muzzling the greyhounds and the coursing club have indicated they are willing to investigate it if they have not already done so. It may be that there are difficulties involved but it is something that should be looked at. I speak as somebody who is virtually ignorant of the whole scenario.

If there are difficulties and if unwarranted cruelty and harm is caused to any animal it should be investigated and if the coursing clubs are not looking after what is proper in all the circumstances then action should be taken and proper veterinary controls put in place. I ask the Minister and the Minister of State to ensure that whatever legislation they introduce will contain very strict controls in order to ensure that we do not have a recurrence of the incidents mentioned by Deputy Gregory. I have heard of those incidents and I would be shocked had I been present at any of those meetings. I know coursing people in my own locality would condemn it.

Deputy Gregory referred to drag coursing. This is something about which I do not have a great deal of knowledge, and neither would most people on this island, but it is something that could be examined. Perhaps the Minister could put it to the main body and the coursing clubs to see whether it could be investigated.

This is probably one of the most emotive issues which has come before the Dáil for a long time. Despite the fact that we have grave problems on this island I would ask people not be so entrenched in their positions and that they should accept some middle ground on this issue. Perhaps the Minister's suggestion would be the best.

We, as legislators, should always be very careful about the way in which our laws impact upon the general public. Not so long ago a man arrived into my office and asked whether he should apply for a job in a hospital. He told me that six months earlier — on 1 January 1993 — he lost his job in customs and excise as a result of decisions both in this House and in Europe. He then got another job on the construction of one of the interpretative centres in County Meath. What happened there? Because of lobbies and actions the man lost his job again within six months. He came to me and asked whether it was worth his while to apply for the job in the hospital in view of the fact that the report was that they would be closing the hospital. I do not say that in jest but when we come in here and talk about indigenous industries and creating employment we may very well — and Deputy Gregory may acknowledge this — put people out of their jobs. If that is the case we should tread very warily. I prefaced my remarks here by saying that in effect I am in the middle, I am the ordinary five foot eighter; as Deputy Shatter and Deputy Michael McDowell would know, I am the reasonable man, the man on the Clapham omnibus. I would like to see proper controls and proper monitoring of this sport if it is being abused by certain individuals on this island.

Am I right in thinking I have 30 minutes?

I wish to share my time with Deputy Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny).

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I tabled a reasoned amendment to Second Stage of this Bill which, I am told, for a series of technical reasons is not in order. That is a great pity but since the substance is more important than formalities I intend to say what the thrust of the amendment is.

The amendment was designed to tighten up the procedures observed at coursing meetings and to provide for a further and deeper reflection on the conduct of such meetings. It was also designed to discover whether some of the views expressed this evening can be turned into regulations which will, while maybe not meeting the case made by those opposed to this sport, will at least give them the feeling that it has been regulated or controlled as far as possible. Our proposals would provide for the drawing up of licensing criteria for coursing meetings and the banning of meetings where those licensing criteria are not met. They would also ensure the presence of a wildlife ranger to supervise activities at all meetings. Before a course takes place and a veterinary report is issued the wildlife ranger could be empowered to ban or stop the holding of a meeting if he is not satisfied with the veterinary report. They would require also that a study is carried out to determine whether greyhounds used for coursing should be muzzled during a meeting and whether meetings should be open instead of closed meetings or closed park meetings. We also propose that in the light of all those factors, we should proceed with implementing proposals of that nature quickly and review the experience of the operation in two years' time to ascertain whether the case is still contentious or whether there might be a view at that stage that coursing should be banned.

That is our approach and we believe it is a reasonable one. It is not my intention to demonise anybody and I was pleased that Deputy Gregory avoided the practice of demonising people who hold a different view from his. However, I have to say to Deputy Gregory and others who support this view that there is always the potential for making a serious error if we adopt an excessively anthropomorphic approach to what we are doing. While I am not in any way impugning Deputy Gregory's intentions or sincerity, it is a serious mistake to view the world of animals through the eyes of a human and there is an element of that in what Deputy Gregory is doing. It is time we considered where the balance lies to get a proper perspective of what is involved in any aspect of life in the wild.

The argument about hare coursing has gone on for longer than Deputy Gregory or I can remember. In fact, it has gone on for far longer than any Member of this House can remember and the reason is simple. As far as I am aware human beings have been hunting since homo erectus first appeared on this planet. Hunting took place long before that; it began the moment insectivorous and carniverous animals appeared on this planet. Hunting has been an integral part of the food chain in the natural world since the existence of animals of intelligence on this planet. The signs are obvious. Even today animals which no longer need to hunt still do so and there are many examples. My well fed cat is an accomplished hunter of mice and rabbits and regularly brings home the carcases of such animals, more significantly, she brings live animals home to play with them. The hunting instinct is well rooted in that animal. My dog chases hares on a large area of bogland near my home, although he appears to have only the chasing instinct. He would be baffled if he managed to corner a hare. That is a part of the instinctive genetic make-up of many animals and human beings, although I do not intend to go into that aspect of the matter tonight.

It is nice to know the Deputy keeps two hunters at home.

There is a practice in politics in Kildare known as stag hunting to which I am an enthusiastic adherent.

The hare in the wild must be a prolific animal to survive. In Ireland the hare has many predators some of them recently imported such as wild mink which have escaped from many farms throughout the country. The stoat, crows and foxes are all predators of the hare to the point where the proportion of hares in the wild that die of old age is very small. The hare is not unique in that regard. It is said that only about 10 per cent of hares in the wild die of old age, the remainder die of disease, predation and many other factors brought about by modern living. Road traffic and farm machinery kill most hares. Apart from road traffic and farm machinery, the fox is the greatest threat to the hare. The fox population is flourishing and as it increases, the threat to the hare inevitably increases.

I have heard hares being taken by foxes. I do not know if Deputy Gregory has ever heard a hare being taken by a fox. If not, I recommend that he and others who support his view go for a walk in the countryside on a still summer's evening. They will frequently hear foxes barking and hares being taken by them, squealing in the way Deputy Gregory described in his quotation from The Cork Examiner earlier. I do not believe anybody here would go so far as to suggest that we should stop foxes taking hares and if Deputy Gregory heard a hare squealing on the edge of a wood or common in the countryside would he rush to rescue it from the jaws of the fox?

I know some people will argue that the fox and other predators take hares from necessity, but that humans do not have to. That is a fair point, but humans still like to keep and breed dogs and train them for their particular innate abilities. The logical conclusion of the argument against hare coursing is that we should no longer keep animals that are natural hunters, even the ordinary cat, or try to breed out their hunting instincts. That would be absurd. It would be even more absurd to take the next logical step in an anthropocentric way of looking at the world and say that because we do not like to see animals hunted or killed or own animals that hunt or kill, we should breed out their hunting traits and do something about breeding out the hunting instincts of the human species as well. That is the logical conclusion of the argument and I am sure everybody would agree it does not stand up.

Hare coursing cannot be compared with many of the other blood sports to which people rightly object. I do not think, Sir, that hare coursing could be compared with, for example, dog-fighting anymore than pheasant shooting could be compared with cock-fighting. Fighting between male creatures — and dog-fighting and cock-fighting are fights between males — is very common indeed, and fighting to the death between male creatures in the wild is not uncommon either. However, that is most typically either in defence of territory or in competition for mates. Broadly speaking, that does not happen with domestic animals, except perhaps in the case of household dogs that are allowed to roam free. There are often cases of males of that species fighting fairly ferociously. On the whole the circumstances in which fighting to the death between male animals happens in the wild do not apply to domesticated animals and they are not in any way comparable with the circumstances in which dogs kill hares.

Neither do I think, Sir, that hare coursing can be compared in any way to badger-baiting. Badger-baiting is usually intended to wipe out the badger population in a given area, an activity for which I believe there can be no possible justification. I do not agree with the doctrine that is common around our countryside today that we should get rid of most of our badgers. They are entirely inoffensive animals. I know that people link them with bovine TB, but I do not think that destroying whole colonies of badgers is the way to deal with that problem. However, if we feel we have to kill badgers then there are far better and quicker and more humane ways of doing it than badger-baiting. This is definitely the kind of bloodsport for which there is no need, and it seems there is no breed of dog in this country that has as a natural part of its genetic make-up the hunting of badgers. There is no comparison between hare coursing and any of the other more objectionable blood sports to which I think virtually all Members of this House would object.

It goes without saying that the last thing supporters of hare coursing would want is to wipe out the hare population anywhere. I am not going to argue — other people may but I am sceptical about it — that the coursing fraternity are the greatest friends of the hare in that they have an interest in keeping up the hare population. I do not think people are entitled to claim that as a great virtue on their own part, any more than I think their opponents are entitled to allege against them that they are diminishing the hare population, because they are not. In fact, if one looks at the effects of coursing, even on the worst estimates we have of it, the number of hares that die as a result of the activities of coursing clubs is only a tiny fraction of 1 per cent of the number of hares that die in the wild from all the other causes I have mentioned. Especially, they are only a small proportion of the number of hares that die of predation by other species, including the fox.

Some years ago, Sir, a House of Commons Select Committee looked at a Bill to regulate hare coursing in the UK and it might be worthwhile if we reflected on some of the things they found. I regret, Sir, that because it is a photocopy I am working from that I do not have the exact reference of the document, but I will provide it for the Official Report. The findings of that Committee were very interesting and I would recommend it as reading to those in this House involved in this debate. What I say will necessarily be selective because I cannot quote all of it. However, as far as I can do it, Sir, I have selected pieces that seem relevant to the debate and that are not loaded.

On the question of kills and the dramatic photographs that we sometimes see, the committee said:

The tug-of-war photographs do not, of course, indicate whether the hare is alive or dead. Nevertheless, since it is admitted by all that between 75 per cent and 80 per cent of the hares killed die instantly, it seems probable that a similar proportion of those carried off or pulled at by the two dogs are dead. From the evidence of kills observed, the Committee are of the opinion that the pickers-up reach living hares and dispatch them within a relatively short time (to be reckoned in seconds) unless the hares are carried away by the dogs.

That, Sir, puts Deputy Gregory's remarks in a perspective that is not given by the rather artistic and flowing prose he read from one newspaper article. On the general question of physical suffering the Committee remarked, and again I quote:

Most wild animals die a violent death, but this does not justify the infliction by man of avoidable suffering even if it is no greater than that which the animal will suffer in the course of nature. The question is whether the degree of suffering caused by a sport is such as would justify legislation to ban that sport. The Committee conclude that a hare which dies instantly on being caught by a dog cannot be said to suffer physically, but that a hare which is caught but not killed suffers physically until it is dispatched.

That again, Sir, puts comments and reports about hares being killed at meetings in a different perspective from the one we get from the reports we normally hear.

On the question of what might be called mental suffering the Committee said:

The hare is a prey species, that is to say, it has evolved with the capacity to move with great speed and to escape from its predators by that means and by jinking. Its flight is a natural instinctive and behavioural response; it is, in fact, a normal state of affairs. Just as it is biologically necessary for an animal to heed the warnings of physical pain, so also is it biologically necessary that an animal of that prey species should not suffer psychologically by reason of being chased. If an animal did so suffer, its capacity to escape would be impaired and the species would risk elimination by the process of natural selection. In addition to these considerations, it must be observed that an animal of a prey species like the hare has also evolved the capacity instinctively to resume, very quickly after the chase is over, exactly what it was doing before the chase began.

That again, Sir, puts a great deal of what has been talked about here in the perspective — the proper perspective, I would argue — of the natural world. It is interesting to reflect on the conclusions of that Committee. In its conclusions the Committee stated the following: "The Committee do not believe that chasing the hare causes terror." That is in keeping with what was said earlier. The committee went on to say: "The ethical question should in their opinion be for the individual conscience and not for legislation". That is an important principle.

The Deputy forgets one thing.

Deputy Gregory does not know yet what I have or have not forgotten. If he will be good enough to listen——

There is no enclosed coursing in Britain, so all the Deputy's comments are irrelevant.

If the Deputy would be good enough to listen, as I listened to him, he will hear what I have to say. I think it is an important consideration whether a question of this kind should be for the individual conscience or for legislation. I will reveal my prejudice immediately. In any case of this kind where there is an argument as to whether a matter should be dealt with by individual conscience or by legislation, my instinctive reaction is always to leave it to the individual conscience if that can realistically and properly be done.

Tomorrow night in this House we are going to debate a Bill the aim of which is to take out of the area of legislation a certain area of human conduct and hand it back to individual conscience. I expect — though I may be wrong — that Deputy Gregory is going to support that Bill and a good many other Members of this House, who have the same view that Deputy Gregory has about the issue we are discussing now, are also, I hope, going to support that Bill. I would recommend strongly that they support it if they had any notions of doing otherwise, but that is another day's work. That, I think, Sir, illustrates the point that there are some areas of human conduct where, try as we might, the law may not be able to deal with all eventualities and where in any case the law is probably going to make an ass of itself if it tries to go too far.

I have made the point that the number of hares killed at coursing meetings constitutes only a very tiny fraction of the total number of hares that die in any given year. I hope, Sir, that I have put it into a perspective that is a little different but more in keeping with the rhythms of nature than we tend to hear during the course of this debate.

Debate adjourned.
Sitting suspended at 8.30 p.m. and resumed at 8.45 p.m.
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