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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Jun 1993

Vol. 432 No. 7

Industrial Development Bill, 1993 [ Seanad ]: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

The purpose of this Bill is to create the new State agency structures which will underpin industrial development in the coming decades. Three new bodies will be created — Forfás, Forbairt and the Industrial Development Agency (Ireland) — IDA. Each of the agencies will be autonomous and will have its own board. Each will have a distinct mission and goal. However, all three agencies will operate within a framework which facilitates co-operation and mutual support. Forfás will be responsible for overall policy co-ordination and administration. In addition, Forfás will play a proactive role in ensuring co-ordination in those areas of industrial development which are outside the direct remit of my Department, such as food and foreign trade. Forbairt will develop indigenous industry by bringing together the existing functions of Eolas and the IDA, and finally, IDA Ireland will continue to promote the attraction of overseas industry to Ireland.

The creation of these new bodies represents a major step forward in the development and implementation of industrial policy in Ireland. I will return to this point in detail later, but, first, I would like to place the Bill and the topic of industrial development within the broader context of Irish economic development. As the House will be aware, the boundaries of this broader area have been explored and developed through the work of the Industrial Policy Review Group, chaired by Mr. Jim Culliton and in the subsequent task force chaired by Dr. Paddy Moriarty.

The effect of Culliton was to widen the whole industrial policy debate by pointing out that industrial development comes about through the harmonisation of a broad range of factors, many of which extend beyond the remit of my Department and its agencies. Culliton builds on this new analysis by calling for a different approach in which the requirements of industrial development would become the driver for many areas of economic and social activity.

In the Programme for Government, my ministerial colleagues and I indicated our clear agreement with this approach and stated that we would: strengthen Ireland's industrial, scientific and exporting base; increase the level of directly productive activity; encourage a dynamic spirit of enterprise; put a new emphasis on building up small industry, and broaden industrial strategy to take in all the factors that affect output and productive.

The Moriarty task force reinforced this central message and undertook, with great commitment, the difficult job of translating the need for a more co-ordinated approach to enterprise development into a series of specific tasks to be fulfilled by various Government Departments, State agencies, and the semi-State sector.

In the document Employment Through Enterprise, the Government gave its proposals for dealing with the task force recommendations in the areas of taxation, energy, ports, communications, transport, environment, commercial State enterprises education and training, competition policy, the legislative process and of course, the reorganisation of the State agencies. Taken together, the programme set down in that document represents the most concerted effort ever undertaken to address the requirements of employment and enterprise development in the State.

As far as the industrial development agencies are concerned, the conclusion of the Culliton report was that their role is an important but limited one. When reviewing industrial performance there has for too long been a tendency to believe that the agencies are responsible for job creation and for any failure to meet this country's employment needs. Set against the broad panorama of issues addressed by Culliton this view is patently flawed. However, this broader view should in no way allow complacency to creep in. The current agency structures are inhibiting the most efficient and effective development of industry and we must change them.

The problem to be tackled is evident when we look at the breakdown of jobs gained and lost in both Irish and overseas firms in the country over the six year period 1987 to 1992 inclusive. During this period an impressive total of 118,500 jobs were created but, unfortunately, this was accompanied by total losses of 108,600. Some would say that this represents a poor success rate, especially since the new job gains came from overseas companies. I dispute this overly simplified view.

Let me be clear from the outset that the contribution which overseas firms have made to Ireland, and the success which the IDA has achieved in attracting them, is not to be dismissed. On the contrary, it deserves the highest possible praise. Around three quarters of our industrial exports come from foreign firms and those same firms employ half the total workforce in manufacturing.

Over the past few years, however, the global industrial economy has been going through a recession of unprecedented proportions. Even Japan, whose industry seemed invincible during the 1970s and 1980s has started to feel the cold wind of falling orders and job losses. Against this backdrop we must consider ourselves very lucky to have been able to attract new industry and to create new jobs to replace those which succumbed to the effects of the international recession.

The danger is that we may take too much comfort from this strong overseas performance. What has been happening, in this regard, is that our successes in the field of attracting mobile investment have been obscuring our failure to really get indigenous industry moving.

The current situation, where a single agency is responsible for both indigenous and overseas firms, exacerbates the lack of clarity. This is understandable and inevitable, since any organisation will strive to present its performance in the best possible light. Its inevitability means that we must change the structures to get the clarity we require. This is what this Bill is all about.

The indigenous industry development role will be addressed by Forbairt. Before I talk in detail about Forbairt, let me pause for a moment and go back to Culliton. A great deal has been made about what the Culliton report did or did not propose in relation to the structures of the State agencies. There have been protracted debates on whether the finest points of the report are being interpreted correctly and acted upon, the more intricate the debate becomes, the more people deviate from the central point of Culliton, which was to lay down a broad strategy for industrial development and economic growth.

In the area of organisation design, many different approaches can be taken. One of the leading experts in this field. Richard Pascale talks about the constant need to achieve a balance between "fit" and "split", in other words, the need to develop organisations which are coherent and consistent in their strategies and structures, but not so unidimensional that they stagnate and become hidebound by size and bureaucracy. In the structures which this Bill will establish, I am fully confident that we have struck the right balance between these two opposing forces. In this regard, I would say with some force that I am much more concerned with getting this balance right than with conforming to some abstract notion of adherence to a precious text.

The challenge facing Forbairt will demand a different package of solutions from those which have traditionally been dispensed. In particular, it will mean changing the widespread perception within industry and the State agencies that cash grants are the main vehicle for development. If this were the case we would have solved our problems long ago. The truth is that the developmental requirements of industry are far more fundamental and the problems more deep seated. The key issue is whether our firms have the necessary competences to produce the technologically sophisticated, high quality, goods and services which international markets require and also whether firms have the internal efficiencies needed to bring those goods to market on time and on budget.

At present, we have two problems. First, not enough of our existing firms have the necessary mix of such competences to develop and grow. Second, we are not developing sufficient new start-up firms to expand the overall indigenous sector to the levels that our unemployment problems require. These problems are being addressed by the existing agencies. The IDA, for example, is developing capability-related programmes, focusing on company development and management development. It is also increasing its equity participation in firms and tying its financial supports to the development of the strategic fundamentals in firms. At the same time Eolas is offering technology audits, quality programmes, graduate placements and a host of other technology development facilities. However, this short list of initiatives demonstrates the piecemeal approach which the existing structures bring about. In creating Forbairt, this Bill will allow a much better planned approach to the development of indigenous industry.

However, we should not delude ourselves that the new structures will bring results overnight. The problems I have referred to will take time to solve. As Professor Michael Enright of Harvard Business School and adviser to the Culliton Review Group pointed out:

Firms and governments must take the long view if they are to be successful in improving their competitiveness. Industrial competitiveness is built over decades, not business or political cycles.

The objective in creating Forbairt is not to achieve a quick fix solution. Rather it is to create a clear focus on the problem and in so doing to ensure that performance targets for the new agency can be set out and appraised in unambiguous terms.

The same holds true of IDA Ireland which will be mandated to maximise the return from the attraction of mobile international investment at minimum cost to the taxpayer. This involves more than just "selling" Ireland as an attractive location. It means being aware of movements in the business and technological environment and of being able to make a successful appraisal of the strategic fundamentals of potential client firms.

In the interests of minimising grant expenditure, it also requires that IDA Ireland should be able to demonstrate the attractiveness of Ireland in terms of other factor advantages such as the quality of the labour force, our clean environment and other infrastructural assets such as our telecommunications system. In these regards the importance of the wide ranging reforms which the Government has instituted in response to the Moriarty task force recommendations can once again be seen to make eminent good sense.

I also want IDA Ireland to strengthen its efforts within the Single European Market. All of the assets which I have referred to above are as attractive to European firms seeking to expand as they are to US or Japanese firms. The opportunities offered by the Single Market are also conducive to the development of joint ventures, strategic alliances and technology transfer between Irish and European firms. This is another area which I want IDA Ireland to explore in conjunction with Forbairt.

Having mentioned linkages between the agencies, I should like to turn now to the issue of co-ordination. As I have shown, the separation of indigenous and overseas functions will lead to a greater clarity of mission at agency level. However, we must also be on our guard that this separation of functions will not lead to any overlap between the indigenous and overseas functions being ignored. This necessity for co-ordination is part of the raison d'etre of Forfás. The Programme for Government established this point. It was further reinforced in the document Employment through Enterprise where we point out that:

Forfás will have a vital co-ordinating role and will promote greater linkages between the indigenous and international sectors of Irish industry.

In the context of promoting linkages it is vital to ensure that opportunities to exploit synergies between indigenous and foreign firms are exploited to the greatest extent possible. Such business linkages are of vital importance for employment creation, indigenous business development and continued attraction of new greenfield investments. Because of the small size of the country, indigenous companies have a limited domestic market in which to grow their business. This is a significant drawback.

As Professor Michael Porter pointed out in his book The Competitive Advantage of Nations, the size of the home market and, more specifically, the nature of home market demand, is a major determinant of the rate at which a nation's firms can develop. The opportunity to supply multinational companies based here therefore represents a very significant expansion of the domestic market for Irish firms. It also represents the kind of challenge, in terms of buyer standards, to which indigenous firms need to rise if they are to compete internationally. By developing as successful suppliers to multinationals in Ireland these firms can develop world class standards with less investment in marketing and product development than would otherwise be the case.

The whole area of linkage development also raises the question of industrial clusters as developed by Porter and recommended in the Culliton report. The issue of cluster development is a complex one since it requires the formation of linkages between overseas and indigenous companies and between companies in different sectors. For example, an agro-industrial cluster could involve companies in food processing, engineering companies in production equipment fabrication and electronics and software companies in process control and monitoring. Clearly, it will be difficult for either Forbairt or the IDA to implement the clusters concept while at the same time focusing on their sectoral responsibilities.

This, then, is a perfect example of the type of area where Forfás can play a role. That role will involve developing policy for cluster and linkage development and working with staff from Forbairt and IDA Ireland to ensure that, at an executive level, policy is implemented in a flexible and pragmatic way. For example, Forfás will need to work with the two agencies to determine the operating guidelines to be used in negotiating particular support packages with companies. The objective will be to ensure an equitable approach to overseas and indigenous companies operating in similar sectors or in competition with one another.

Another area where co-ordination will be required is in the area of company ownership changes and takeovers. The global nature of business today means that the ownership of companies cannot be seen as a static phenomenon. As Culliton pointed out, overseas companies have transferred to Irish ownership and vice versa. This is frequently in response to the developmental needs of those companies and can be a positive step. But in the agency context such transfers of ownership need to be managed to ensure that full support is provided during the transitional period. Here again Forfás will play a co-ordinating role.

The policy and evaluation role of Forfás generally is very important. In this regard I see Forfás as an important link in the policy chain between my Department and the two agencies. This centralising of the policy and evaluation activities of the agencies at the level of Forfás will make for a more open dialogue in the industrial policy area. Since Forfás will not have a direct involvement in the implementation of programmes it will be in a better position to objectively analyse the performance of the executive agencies and, on foot of this, to provide policy advice to my Department.

In referring to Forfás as a link in the chain, I want to make it clear that both myself and my Department will be the driving force in the policy area. The Moriarty Task Force made a number of recommendations — for instance, how my Department's resources in the policy area could be strengthened — and these are being pursued. I will be continuing my programme of restructuring and organisational development within the Department with the objective of ensuring that the changes which are proposed in this Bill at agency level will be fully reflected within the structures of my Department.

I would like to touch specifically on the question of policy for science and technology as I know that there is some concern among the scientific community that the focus on science and technology which has developed under the aegis of my Department in recent years will be distorted or diluted by the new structures. I would like to make it clear that I am fully committed to continuing to develop the role which technology can play in industrial development. Indeed, I am convinced that the incorporation of Eolas into Forfás will create a structure in which the technological needs of firms can be better serviced. Technology development is a vital part of company development and is something of which Irish firms are showing a growing awareness.

This was demonstrated by the huge demand for the new Structural Funds supported industry research and development scheme launched by my Department last year. Under our plans for the next round of Structural Funds, Forbairt will continue to respond to industry demands for research and development support and this is entirely in line with the capability development approach which I want Forbairt to take up with vigour. As I have said, the integration of Eolas into Forbairt will bring science and technology very much into the spotlight, not relegate it to the shadows. But I am totally committed to extracting the maximum value from the entire industrial development budget over the short, medium and long term. This means that science and technology activities will be subject to the same scrutiny and performance appraisal as the other programmes of the agencies. Expenditure on science and technology is necessary; but it is equally necessary that such expenditure should provide value for money.

These sentiments are also in line with the recommendations of Culliton that my Department's science and technology activities should be fully responsive to the needs of industry. However, I am aware that the views of Culliton on science and technology were interpreted in some quarters as being too concerned with short term gain at the expense of a long term strategy. Such a view would be inconsistent with the need to take a strategic long term perspective on the development of industry and is not based on the facts. Under Forbairt, longer-term science and technology initiatives, such as the programmes in advanced technology which are harnessing the capability of our third level institutions, will continue to be supported and there is no question of this longer-term perspective being disregarded.

On the subject of policy and evaluation, I must return again to the role of Forfás. Eolas is presently undertaking a comprehensive programme of science and technology evaluation which is providing a valuable input to the policy formulation process in my Department. This activity will now be integrated into Forfás and will continue. The same is true of the broader science and technology policy functions which are incorporated in the Science and Technology Act, 1987. In particular, I would refer to the important horizontal role which Eolas exercises in relation to international programmes such as the EC framework programme. This function extends across a number of Departments and agencies and I am anxious that it should continue within the Forfás context.

When speaking of interdepartmental co-ordination, I would like to address the role of Forfás in relation to trade and marketing. Much has been made of the fact that An Bord Tráchtála (ABT) has not been merged with Forbairt. In the Programme for Government we stated our intention to establish the new Department of Tourism and Trade which would bring a new dynamic to this area. The retention of An Bord Tráchtála as a separate body reporting to the Minister for Tourism and Trade is consistent with our belief that export development and trade promotion should be the main focus of that organisation. As far as the question of incorporating some elements of An Bord Tráchtála into Forbairt is concerned, I have reviewed this matter carefully in consultation with the Minister for Tourism and Trade. Our conclusion was that any division of the trade and marketing functions of An Bord Tráchtála would simply lead to a damaging sub-optimisation of both elements. Such an outcome would not serve well the objectives of industrial development or trade development. The need for co-ordination remains, however, and this will be achieved in the first instance through the mechanism of Forfás. To assist in this process the chief executive of An Bord Tráchtála will be a member of the Forfás board.

In addition, there already exists close co-operation in the regions between An Bord Tráchtála and the IDA-Eolas personnel. The IDA's Irish industry directorate has on-going liaison with An Bord Tráchtála as part of its activity in assisting indigenous companies to structure and implement company development plans. This activity involves day-to-day interaction between IDA and An Bord Tráchtála project executives at headquarters and in the regions. This "on the ground" interaction will be complemented by Forfás which will work to ensure that common criteria and negotiating guidelines are applied by both companies when dealing with their client firms. With these arrangements in place I am confident that industry will continue to be fully supported in respect of its marketing requirements at the level of the individual firm.

In the training area, the main recommendation of Culliton was that there should be a clear division of roles within FÁS so as to ensure that the distinct training needs of those in work and those out of work were properly catered for. This recommendation has been addressed by the establishment of a new industry division within FÁS. The objective of this division is to improve the quality of training for Irish business and to increase the amount of training undertaken. The division will work closely with industry and business to identify training requirements and assist in the design and implementation of training programmes. It will be assisted in its work by statutory and non-statutory industrial training committees in areas such as engineering, clothing and footwear and chemicals and allied products. The new division is in the process of commissioning studies in all major industrial sectors to further assist it in catering for the training needs of industry.

The establishment of the FÁS industry division will create a clear focal point for interaction between FÁS and the new bodies established under this Act. Legislative provision already exists under the Industrial Development Act, 1986 for liaison between the IDA and FÁS and this will continue to apply to the new structures.

As the House will be aware, the development of the food industry is of key importance. I have discussed the new agency arrangements with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry and we have agreed that the current situation where the Irish industry division of IDA is responsible for all food companies, regardless of ownership, will continue to obtain in the new structures. That is to say that Forbairt will have sole responsibility for the development of the food industry. I will also be ensuring that the industry is represented on the board of Forfás. The Bill also provides for a general enabling provision to allow the type of co-ordination that I have proposed between An Bord Tráchtála and Forfás to be extended to any new marketing body which may be established in the food area.

Turning to matters of practical administration, I have been anxious to guard against the creation of additional layers of bureaucracy when establishing the new structures. It is my intention, therefore, that central administrative functions relating to areas such as finance, land and personnel for the agencies will be centralised in Forfás. This approach will allow for the smoothest possible transition to the new structures and will minimise the administrative overheads and costs in the operation of the new bodies.

As I have been stressing to the House, the plans for agency restructuring which I am presenting here today are part of a concerted effort by the Government to bring a spirit of enterprise and progress to all areas of economic development with a view to tackling the pressing problems of unemployment. In a related area, the establishment of the county enterprise boards will help to bridge a gap in the current support system for local enterprise initiatives. That is why I have placed such emphasis on the county enterprise boards having clear enterprise and job creation objectives in those business areas not already covered by Forbairt. The operation of these boards at county level will be complemented by Forbairt's industrial development role at regional level.

It is my intention to ensure that the proposed administrative arrangements for the new boards are kept simple and non-bureaucratic. The support team will be headed by a county enterprise officer who will act as facilitator, directing individual projects or local community enterprise initiatives to the existing State agencies where this is appropriate. Thus, we will ensure that the county enterprise system picks up those worthy projects which might otherwise slip through the net but at the same time ensure that the activities of Forbairt and other agencies are not duplicated.

Indeed, on the contrary, the county enterprise boards will draw on the skills resident in Forbairt wherever possible. In particular, the expertise which the IDA has developed in project appraisal techniques will be available to the boards through the presence of a Forbairt specialist on the evaluation committee which each board will be establishing. These committees will consider all project proposals and will make recommendations on the most appropriate degree and form of assistance for projects, having regard to the quality, local relevance and cost-effectiveness of the proposals.

In devising the structures and organisation for the county enterprise boards, I have sought to ensure that their operations will be consistent with the need for a flexible yet comprehensive approach promoting local enterprise and economic development. The new boards will, by working closely with Forbairt and other relevant agencies at regional and national level, help to develop a local initiatives approach which generates community support for integrated efforts to promote economic development through making maximum use of local resources.

I have mentioned before that many detailed powers and functions of the new bodies will continue to be provided for in the new legislation. I should also mention that the legislation covering SFADCo and Údarás na Gaeltachta, of course, will remain in force and these bodies will continue to exercise their regional development remit within the context of the new structures.

Forbairt will actively pursue a regional development role. In the case of Forbairt, each region will continue to exercise autonomy in the administration of the small business programme. In this regard, each regional board makes its own decisions on grant applications within the context of overall sectoral development policy. The regional offices have a wide range of functions in respect of small businesses. In addition to the area of grant assistance and business advice they also maintain close links with entrepreneurs and industries in the regions, identifying and nurturing development opportunities.

The new structures will assist closer integration between the business and technology services currently provided in the regions. In recent years Eolas has considerably increased its regional activities in areas such as technology acquisition, graduate placement and technology audits. Through its regional technology transfer officers it has been building up a hands-on relationship with firms and has been compiling an inventory of the technology needs of these firms. One of the essential shortcomings of many Irish firms is that they rely too much on their existing products and therefore lose out to competitors whose product life cycles are shorter. The integration of IDA and Eolas staff into Forbairt will enable deficiencies like this to be addressed much more effectively, with Eolas staff identifying product and technology opportunities and IDA staff providing access to the business know-how and sources of finance.

The combined objectives of Forfás, Forbairt and the county enterprise boards will be to actively foster and promote the creation of new enterprise and the growth and consolidation of existing indigenous firms. This is the central task upon which we must focus our energies and concerted efforts.

I propose to turn now to the detailed structure and content of the Bill. At the outset, I should say that the central purpose of this Bill is to enable the new agency structures to be put in place in a rapid but orderly way. The Bill, therefore, does not seek to reinvent the wheel. As I have already emphasised, the point at issue is not whether the established agencies are doing the right thing but whether the existing structures within which they are operating allow them to optimise their approach and deliver their programmes in a way which best benefits firms. Against this background, the House will, I hope, appreciate that the activities of the agencies, for the most part, are adequately catered for in the existing corpus of legislation.

This is not to say, of course, that the creation of Forfás, Forbairt and IDA Ireland will not give rise to innovative new approaches to industrial development which will require to be given substance and power through legislation in the future. If that is the case, and I expect it will be, then I assure the House that I am ready and willing to bring forward the appropriate proposals as and when the need arises. In the meantime, the Bill before the House is the first step towards a new and more clearly focused strategy for industrial development.

A number of detailed points arise in respect of the Bill which I now propose to highlight. On the question of the repeals referred to in section 4 and in the Third Schedule, I have not sought to remove any of the existing IDA or Eolas functions. The purpose of the repeals listed is to remove inconsistencies arising out of the merging of IDA and Eolas within the new structures.

In section 5 I propose to fix the establishment day of the new agencies by order so as to allow some flexibility in catering for the logistical arrangements which will require to be made on foot of the transition. Sections 6 to 9 deal with the functions of Forfás and the agencies. It is consistent with the spirit of this enabling legislation that these have been stated in general terms. In order to provide flexibility, the existing functions of the IDA and Eolas will be vested in Forfás but, for the most part, will be exercised by the two agencies subject to my direction. I assure the House that there is no question of Forfás acting as a super agency and, in this regard, I would draw the attention of the House to the fact that the provision of grants to companies by Forfás is specifically prohibited by section 9.

Section 10 provides for the normal powers of delegation of functions and for the constitution of committees or other bodies for the purposes of exercising the functions thus delegated. In this regard, I would recall to the House the recommendations of the Moriarty task force in relation to the need for a separate body for industrial standards. This arises out of the need to separate the certification activities of the National Standards Authority of Ireland from the consultancy activities of Eolas. I propose, therefore, to constitute the NSAI as an autonomous body attached to Forfás for this purpose. A similar arrangement will be made for the Irish Accreditation Board which accredits industrial testing laboratories, if required.

Returning to the question of autonomy for the agencies, I would refer the House to section 11 where it is provided that Forfás and each agency will have separate grants-in-aid, thus ensuring their financial autonomy. In section 13, the provision of the 1986 Act for carrying out a review of industrial performance has been restated and expanded to include a review of industrial policy. This is in line with the recommendations of the Culliton report that the policy activities of my Department should be strengthened and is one of a number of initiatives which I am currently examining in this regard.

The transitional provisions in the Bill dealt with in sections 14 to 21 provide for the normal transfers from the existing agencies to the new structures and for the dissolution of the IDA and Eolas. The First Schedule — Forfás and the Agencies — provides for the appointment of boards of Forfás and each agency, for the conditions of office applying to board members and for other matters such as the provisions for annual reports and accounts. This schedule contains the normal provisions applying to the members of the existing IDA.

The Second Schedule deals primarily with matters relating to the staffing of Forfás. In that regard I would ask the House to note my concern that the minimum disruption be caused to staff of IDA and Eolas in the establishment of the new structures. The Bill provides that all staff of the new agencies will hold their contracts with Forfás but will be seconded to the agencies as appropriate. Staff will effectively be able to move from one agency to another bringing their experience and expertise with them. This interchange of staff will create a dynamic open and pro-active culture required for the development of industry in the nineties and beyond.

This Bill forms part of an overall long term strategy for tackling the industrial development and employment generation problems facing us. As far as the agency structures for industrial development are concerned, it will usher in an era which will be marked by a greater clarity of mission and a strengthened emphasis on catering for the real needs of indigenous firms. It will also promote better value for the taxpayer in the moneys expended on attracting overseas investment and will maximise the benefits to be derived from linkages between the overseas and indigenous sectors. All of this will lead to a new dynamic in Irish firms and I commend the Bill to the House.

I will resist the temptation to go into the matter of the deplorable mess this Government has made of taxation policy. In the industrial sector, where we are trying to create jobs, it costs £2.30 to put £1 in a worker's pocket and, when everything is taken into account, many people on low pay are worse off in employment than unemployed. It is impossible to take seriously a strategy for employment promotion in the industrial sector that has aggravated that position in the 1993 budget despite all the recommendations of Culliton and others in that regard.

Nevertheless, I will devote my attention to this Bill. As the Government has restricted the time limit for debating such matters, we must concentrate on the Bill before us today. A great deal of money and energy will be wasted in implementing the reorganisation planned in this Bill. It will increase the complexity of the industrial support system instead of simplifying it and it is a step backwards from the main objective of building up the capacity of firms to create employment in Ireland. This legislation will result in agencies taking their eye off the ball as they jockey for positions in the new line-up.

The Bill before us is a political compromise in a struggle for power between Ministers McCreevy and Quinn. It does not reflect the needs of an effective industrial policy and to illustrate that we need only recall some of Culliton's recommendations seeking to simplify our approach to industrial and business development. Where Culliton suggested two industrial agencies, we are to have six. He proposed that the specialist agency for indigenous development should integrate marketing, design, product technology and other development supports under one roof, but this is not to be the case. Instead, An Bord Tráchtála is to be split off from the indigenous agency, which is totally in contradiction of both Culliton and Moriarity. Indeed, in five separate places in two pages of his report Moriarty emphasises the need to have such a degree of integration with An Bord Tráchtála and the valuable marketing and trading support it would offer to indigenous industry. I am glad to note that the Minister at least deleted from his speech his claimed endorsement by Culliton and Moriarty for that proposal which he made in the Seanad. Where Culliton recommended that there should be one Minister in charge who would take a firm hold of industrial policy, we are to have policy divided between two Ministers. We are to have agencies, agencies to mind agencies and agencies to pull together Ministers who are pulling apart.

In AD 66 Caius Petronius, whom I consider a very wise writer, stated:

We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganised. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any situation by reorganising, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralisation.

As testified by this Bill, little has changed since then.

I must ask the Minister to seriously reconsider his strategy. He seems to be more concerned about giving the appearance of change than with the substance of change, which is necessary. I will list five critical issues of business development strategy for Ireland in the future. To what degree do we continue to rely on foreign industry? Do we cut grants and make a decisive shift from grants to equity support for our indigenous industry? To what extent do we now abandon manufacturing as the core of our employment strategy? How do we achieve genuine subsidiarity in our approach to support for business development? On none of those critical issues does the Minister give the impression that he has a thought-out position and a strategy which he proposes to adopt. Instead, we see the Minister flying by the seat of his pants, announcing decisions first and groping around for the rationale afterwards.

Let us take the example of foreign industry. Before we set up a dedicated agency for supporting foreign industry we must have far greater clarity on the policy the Government intends to pursue. The Minister made a revealing reference to this in his speech. He stated that the point at issue was not whether the established agencies are doing the right thing but, rather, whether the existing structures within which they are operating are allowing them to optimise their approach and deliver their programmes in a way which best benefits firms. We cannot decide whether the structures of those agencies are right until the Minister decides what it is he wants them to do, and manifestly we have not done this.

For example, we must have clarity in the foreign industry area. The IDA is currently paying 66 per cent more in grant aid to create a job in an overseas industry than in the indigenous sector. When asked about this in the Dáil the Minister could offer no reason other than the competitive bidding with agencies from other countries. We must seriously question why we should give a foreign industrialist 66 per cent more grant aid to create a job than an Irish industrialist. We must bear in mind that foreign companies source a far smaller proportion of their industrial materials in Ireland — 31 per cent compared to 72 per cent by Irish companies. We must bear in mind also that foreign companies devote a lower proportion of their sales to either Irish wages or bought-in Irish services. Foreign companies are more profitable but repatriate their profits in substantial measure. Equally, foreign companies have generally not brought their product development capacity to Ireland and are vulnerable to the winds of change which occur in their trading markets.

Culliton's critical proposal in this area of policy was that the industrial grant budget for supporting foreign industry must be squeezed, that it must be systematically reduced. In contrast the IDA has been systematically increasing the share of funding to foreign industry. It has been increased by six points in the past five years to a level of 63 per cent of industrial supports. The Minister should tell us today what policy the agency will pursue and whether it will have a shift of resources away from it. There is no point in setting up agencies and then wondering what they should do. Naturally, each agency will try to claim as much of the action as possible.

The Culliton report recommends a decisive shift from grants to equity; but when asked in the Dáil yesterday about this matter, the Minister expressed the belief that this was in fact happening. The reality is totally different. Equity investment represents only 6 per cent of IDA investment at present and this is borne out by the Moriarty report. We must bear in mind that NADCORP has been abolished. The amount of equity investment being undertaken by the State in industrial development at present is declining; it has decreased from £10 million to £6 million in the past two years for which we have recorded figures.

Culliton was very decisive in this area. He envisaged the IDA becoming an aggressive venture capital organisation. He said it should be prepared to take as much as a 60 per cent stake in companies if necessary. He recommended board representation by the IDA and a separate division for seed capital. The Minister should state whether this is the proposed approach. Is this what Forbairt will be doing when it is independently established? The Minister confused me yesterday. He expressed very warm support for equity involvement by the IDA; he deplored the passing of NADCORP but did not say he would reverse the policy in these agencies. It is time to indicate a strategy. Let us have the strategy first and then decide if this is the vehicle for executing it.

I turn now to the third critical issue, the question of the future of manufacturing. There is a very real question as to whether we should dramatically shift our focus from the manufacturing sector as the centre of our employment strategy. Culliton rightly questioned the value of the £600 million spent each year on industrial support. He observed that only 65 per cent of proposed jobs were achieved at the peak by industries establishing in Ireland and that by the seventh year employment had fallen to just 42 per cent of the target they set when they got grant aid. He concluded that there was no robust evaluation of the success or value of the grant support programme, still a critical question. A recent FÁS study showed that over a five year period we can expect to have only 12,000 extra people at work in manufacturing. During that time we will have spent £3,000 million in trying to support manufacturing industry when one takes in not just the IDA, SFADCo, Udarás and FÁS budgets in different areas but the £150 million that Culliton estimated is available through tax breaks and other supports. I will not do the obvious calculation of dividing the £3,000 million by the 12,000 to come up with the figure. It is just mind boggling. We are talking about millions of pounds per job. The Minister has the knowledge and supports, perhaps he could do the calculation.

Since the Deputy's equation is flawed I will not do the arithmetic.

I am not pretending the equation is not flawed. I am trying to illustrate the scale of expenditure if we continue the strategy of spending £3,000 million of taxpayers' money and at the end of five years have 12,000 extra jobs. It must be seriously questioned. Culliton questioned whether the money we were putting in was needed. These figures should stop us in our tracks. We should be asking why we have heaped tax burdens on the service sector which is clearly the only sector promising growth in employment. FÁS anticipates 63,000 extra jobs, five times the employment growth expected from manufacturing. We seem to have learned nothing from Government strategy in this area. We are asking services to bear 21 per cent VAT and 21 per cent PRSI on their very high labour content. We are asking them to bear four times the rate of business tax and hoping they will find it easy to create employment. It is against the odds that they will create 63,000 jobs. The money allocated to support services from Bord Fáilte and the IDA in the international service sector is a tiny fraction of the budget, less than 10 per cent of the IDA budget and, about £3,000 per prospective job, compared to the hundreds of millions of pounds in the manufacturing sector. This issue should be seriously addressed. We should be looking for a decisive shift in this Bill from reliance on manufacturing to support tradeable services. That should be the core of this Bill but it is not and has not been mentioned by the Minister.

The fourth issue I want to address is subsidiarity. I very strongly believe that there is great scope in Ireland for "bottom up" strategies, we should support initiatives from the bottom up and find innovative ways of reinforcing that support. However, the county enterprise boards are an ad hoc response. Instead of wiping the slate clean of a flawed proposal from the previous Government the Minister has tried to limp along with the same policy. The proposal was not guided by an assessment of how successful regional development could be achieved. No one has convinced me that the 36 bodies which propose splitting Dublin into five different areas are the proper vehicles for regional development. That is not the way to go about it. There has never been an overall strategy for regional development which would underpin this as a sensible step forward. Culliton rightly said that a lot of the devolved power should be to regional bodies and regional authorities where there is an ability to assess infrastructure for a region and take a broader view of what will happen.

I commend the Minister for trimming down the extraordinary original proposal, but he has still not changed or reassessed policy. His recent announcement regarding the arrangements for appointing 450 board members was made before he decided the boards' policy. His statement gave no details of powers such boards will have to allocate grants. It did not give any idea of how their results will be judged. It did not set out a system of clear, democratic accountability for money spent and work undertaken. There has been no real consultation with the communities and experts on regional policy who shape effective regional strategy. There will not be a Dáil debate on their establishment and yet these bodies are to be entrusted with the spending of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money. This is another serious case in which the Minister, under pressure to be seen to be doing something, announced a decision without having taken care to decide the new policy strategy.

In the four critical policy areas I have listed there seems to be a depressing continuity of existing policy. Even worse, there seems to be a new set of political lamp posts against which our unfortunate public servants in industrial agencies have to cock their legs. I expected from the Minister a programme of radical change in policy but we are getting more of the same, which Culliton and many others have shown has not served us well.

Even if one accepted the proposed reorganisation in this Bill, there are surprising gaps. Culliton clearly called for proper regional structure within Forbairt which would embrace SFADCo and Údarás na Gaeltachta. It is not clear how these will be linked as they are not mentioned in the Bill. The Minister seems to suggest that they are in some way hidden in the structure but it is not clear whether they will be controlled by Forbairt in their execution of policy or influenced by Forfás in the co-ordination of policy. They do not warrant a mention in either place.

In the area of science and technology the Minister is at pains to try to damp down fears about the downgrading of science and technology. One of the core issues which came up yesterday is that the Government has taken the opportunity of using EC funds to cut its budget. EC funds were there for additionality. The thrust of the EC's plan was to see Ireland make a new effort in research and development to support the growth area from industry to come, the seed potatoes, as I said yesterday. Instead the Government has taken this short-sighted view. When it saw money on the table it grabbed it and put it into its pocket to find something else to do with it. Additionality was always a part of this and is even more critical in the research and development area.

There has been a 50 per cent increase.

That is a slogan. We are not on "Questions and Answers" today; we have some time. The reason for the 50 per cent increase is that the EC has supported a programme which did not include any State aid. The Government has taken the opportunity to cut its budget. On Friday we will have time to discuss this when dealing with the Estimates. The Estimates show a cut of 25 per cent, 27 per cent when account is taken of the micro-electronic line. That is the reality. The Government is spending less and the EC is making up for its shortfall as well as trying to achieve growth. That is not sensible. Culliton criticised this and in his report stated:

We are concerned that the formulation and implementation of industrial related S and T policy has not been clearly defined. The present situation for example, where some industry related S and T programmes are developed and administered by Eolas directly and some initiated by the Department ... is unsatisfactory and a cause of confusion.

That matter has not been addressed in the Bill. There is not a clear statement that the Department's S and T initiatives will be pushed out and put into the industrial sector, where decisions in that regard can be made. That matter should be included and perhaps the Minister will return to this issue later.

I want to consider if fundamentally the split between domestic and foreign industries makes sense. Fine Gael and I seriously question the sense of separating foreign industry from that of indigenous companies. Judging from the existing position, higher grant aid is allocated to foreign companies and the separation is likely to make the uneven treatment even worse. The new agency will be trying to prove its prowess in the competitive bidding the Minister describes and will be trying to land mobile foreign investment. When the Government examines those split agencies, the indigenous agency will have a much lower success rate on paper. The Government should be spending more and not, as is now the case, less per job. People will be of the view that supporting indigenous companies is not worth the long haul and that it is best to opt for the short fix and support the IDA. If the Minister does not make a policy decision to endorse the squeeze on the foreign section, coming near to an election he will want to make many announcements in order to provide the quick fix the people demand. Such announcements will relate to foreign industry, and it will not matter if only 42 per cent of the jobs promised are realised. That is where the pressure will tend to be. The split will make that a more likely outcome.

Culliton in his report advocated the need to move away from the question of ownership of companies. The critical issue for him is strengthening the capabilities of firms operating in Ireland and developing their integration into the Irish economy. The logic of that is to develop industrial policy based on functional divisions and not on divisions based on ownership. If Culliton and the industrial review were faced with two separate agencies — for example, the IDA and Forbairt — I would not be surprised if Culliton would recommend that because of the diminishing significance of ownership those agencies should be amalgamated to provide a coherent approach. It must be questioned if reorganisation is taking place in a way that makes sense. The Minister stated: "The fact is that the current agency structures are inhibiting the most efficient and effective development of industry." I do not consider that fact has ever been established. I have never seen any analysis of why indigenous industry has failed to respond to the support available to it. I am not aware that anyone has claimed that the reason this is the case is that the IDA was not split.

Surely if you are claiming the IDA is only interested in foreigners and not interested in——

They are claims, but I would expect analysis, justifications and sensible explanations from the Minister and not just an undertaking to establish agencies because it was suggested in a report that this might be an improvement. There is a need for serious analysis to consider if such agencies will work. The Minister rightly said that we need a separate package for the indigenous sector, but he has not said what the package should be or why the split in the IDA is necessary to put the package in place. It is a reflection on the Minister's Department if insufficient attention has been given to the indigenous sector. Why did his Department allow the position to evolve that it did not have specific measurable policy objectives so that it could identify that it had gone down the wrong road and that our indigenous sector was being strangled? I would rather the Minister state that he will not accept the IDA's policies and that he will change the policy and issue specific policy directives to that agency. The mistake is being made of putting the restructuring of the agencies before deciding on policy. It would be better if both problems were resolved by addressing the policy defects in regard to the agencies and not changing their structure, which involves major settling-in problems.

There is no doubt that clustering developments, joint ventures and sub-supply are critical factors if we wish to strengthen our manufacturing base. A coherent policy in this area will be more difficult after the split. Forfás will have to put back together what this Bill has torn apart. It will be more difficult once the new structures are in place to have a coherent policy on cluster development and a coherent strategy on joint ventures, sub-supply and linkages. The two agencies are being pulled apart. The hope is that Forfás, which has no directive power, will be able to put those agencies back together again. Forfás will have to struggle hard to get the information and scope to put those agencies back together.

Culliton in his report said that companies that had their head office functions in Ireland should be treated as indigenous. It would appear that his suggestion will not be endorsed in this Bill. How can the position which might emerge from this new arrangement be justified, that a foreign owned industry, for example, a development agency, could gain access to capital grants on the basis of competitive rates with other countries while an Irish company with the same idea would be denied those grants and have to obtain funds elsewhere? A distinction based on ownership is no longer meaningful, given the change in business today. Policy changes are necessary. The Minister's attitude in regard to the food industry is revealing and in his speech he said that the position as it stands in the food sector should be maintained. The food sector is not dramatically different from other sectors. Indeed, the food sector is perhaps a stronger sector and what appears to be within reach in the food sector should be emulated in other sectors. Instead, we are providing for a different way of handling the food sector. The food sector is the sector that has the strongest indigenous base.

The best industrial policy for Ireland would be one that extended to include all services, including tourism, and not confine itself to manufacturing. That is the type of change I would like to see. The test should be that firms can create new business based on new foreign earnings. There should be a much broader consolidation of industrial agencies, including agencies like BIM, CBF and An Bord Tráchtála.

By the end of this year Ireland will have a most bewildering panoply of more than 55 agencies disbursing State funds. Regional authorities may continue to be established by the Government. However, strategy in regard to the critical issues facing us today is not in place. Policy measures are being adapted without adequate regard to their consistency and without a clear and unified policy agenda. Against a background of 300,000 unemployed, this is unforgivable.

The premise established before the Culliton report, the Moriarty task force and other publications was that the Minister of the day had a clear understanding that there were too many agencies with overlapping responsibilities competing with each other. This caused enormous bureaucracy and led to difficulties for people getting the information and support they needed, whether such support was required financially or in an advisory capacity. It was not necessary for Culliton to tell us that was the premise or for Moriarty to emphasise it. It was understood for the last number of years that something had to be done about it. That is the base from which we should be starting and while the Minister subscribed clearly to that on many occasions in this House or at committee meetings, and had a very definite grasp of the difficulties and the changes he wanted to bring about, based on the most recent reports, he should have gone in the direction of reducing substantially the layers of bureaucracy involved in the administration of the agencies, thereby creating a target number of agencies.

That is what was agreed by all but in the context of the Bill before us today that is not what will happen. Indeed, even in practical terms it will be worse than it is in theoretical terms. It is in the practical sense that we required change. On my reading of this Bill, and comparing it to the other reports we have received, I am greatly concerned about its practical application. The creation of Forfás over Forbairt and the IDA is an unnecessary structure. Despite the Minister's speech this morning, which was delivered in very carefully chosen language, I remain unconvinced of the need for Forfás. Indeed, it will create a super-structure, which is what the Minister said he did not want to do and which will inevitably be the controlling dead hand over the activities of Forbairt and IDA Ireland. For this reason the strength of authority will, by perception and practicality, rest with Forfás. Though in theory autonomous, the IDA and Forbairt will inevitably find themselves subject to the control and influence of the board of Forfás. That concerns me and I do not see it bringing any direct benefits to the operation of Forbairt or the IDA. I cannot see what contribution it will make to making those agencies — one concerned with indigenous industry and the other with foreign industry — dynamic in their role of bringing various projects, either international or indigenous, to fruition.

I am concerned that we are creating competing structures by setting up these agencies in the manner outlined here today. Human nature being what it is, competition is inevitable and they will use their position of power and influence to promote their raison d'etre as opposed to the creation of jobs, the enhancing of industry and encouraging the growth of industry. We have witnessed this in the past and the Minister is well aware, as are all Members in this House, of the type of propaganda which can occur and the tendency of these agencies to protect the agency at all costs. That was the first principle: the agency must survive irrespective of whether it is doing the right job.

Like Deputy Bruton, I found it extraordinary that the Minister would say:

... the point at issue is not whether the established agencies are doing the right thing, but, rather, whether the existing structures within which they are operating are allowing them to optimise their approach and deliver their programme in a way which best benefits firms.

The second part of that statement is fine but there appears to be a contradiction between the two.

The issue in regard to this legislation is not policy but the restructuring of the agencies.

That is the mistake.

I accept that but I do not think one can divorce the two, particularly in the light of what the Minister has stated today. Surely we should be considering whether they are doing the right thing and whether they are delivering the policy to do the right thing. That is the context in which I see this issue. I understand the Minister's point about structures but I am concerned greatly about the thought processes that actually put those sentences together because it is a very dangerous viewpoint.

We will respond to that.

I believe that the way it is expanded upon there is extremely unhelpful.

The message that this Bill is sending forth from this House today is that once again we have tremendous ability as politicians to create consistently an enormous number of structures which address the theory of what we believe to be necessary. But we fail, as we have failed, particularly in the last decade, to create the required jobs. The theory does not match what is happening in practice. The plethora of agencies, the part amalgamation and the overlapping of these agencies is a further weakness in the structures that are being created here today.

The question of indigenous versus foreign industry concerns me greatly. I do not subscribe to the view that it is Irish industry versus foreign investment. They are both crucial elements in the development of our economy in a broader sense as well as in creating jobs. The fact that over the years we may not have obtained the best results from our efforts in those areas does not negate the need for continuing growth and particularly the availability of mobile investment. With the globalisation of markets and companies, particularly manufacturing plants, seeking strategic locations and carrying out marketing and research we must play our part and I believe the Minister agrees with that. It is nonsensical to suggest that we should not continue to attract foreign industry to this country.

Because of the globalisation of markets it is absolutely crucial that we continue to seek as much as possible of that investment because it is investment which is legitimately creating jobs here. I know we have had some unfortunate experiences with companies who came here, availed of the grant aid and, after a period of time, disappeared. I do not believe that was their intention; that is the way the markets went and we must live with it the same as everybody else. It is in the area of grants versus equity that the problem can be addressed so as to overcome the obvious difficulties that caused great anger within the trade union movement, among employers and right across the board, in regard to how these funds were perceived to have been used, or abused, as the case may be.

I agree that establishing an agency to overlook the development of indigenous industry and a separate agency to attract foreign industry here is correct. My difficulty in this regard was the creation of Forfá over the other two. It is clear, as the Minister said here some time ago, that there is a view among Irish entrepreneurs — I am not talking about high flying, successful people, but smaller business people who create 15 or 20 jobs, which are crucially important — that if a person goes to the IDA with a German or Dutch accent——

Or a Danish accent.

——or even a Danish accent, he is very welcome, is given the red carpet treatment. The bureaucracy seems to disappear and the person is asked what he wants. However, for an Irish person trying to set up a similar business there are all sorts of barriers in the way. I disagree with my colleague in that I believe there is much evidence that this happens. The fact that a task is given to an agency to deal specifically with the development of indigenous industry will be extremely helpful in expanding our economic base, with our ability to create jobs in the economy in Irish-led industry.

Many industries which we create have the capacity to grow. One does not need to be a massive employer to compete on an international market. One of our failings is that when we reach a certain point we are loath to share part of our companies. That attitude is endemic in the Irish psyche. We must learn that when business grows to a certain size, to secure its future, we must look to outside investment, whether from within this island or outside it.

It may come from within the staff.

It may come from many areas. Why should so many Irish pension funds invest in companies outside this country, sustaining jobs abroad? I would like to see the day when almost all money invested in pension funds is put to work in this economy for the creation of jobs here. That is of crucial importance. We all know that there is a tremendous fund of money outside this country, creating and supporting jobs in other countries.

As regards joint venture, Forbairt must work in conjunction with IDA Ireland in seeking potential investors in Irish companies. As our market is limited many companies who fail in terms of ongoing development must look abroad for investment. However due to their cost base and financial structures these companies do not have the capacity to make that move. It is at that point that we need dedicated people to attract foreign investment. Many indigenous Irish industries have failed due to a lack of proper advice or lack of courage to go into partnership with other industries. I am talking now about industries right across the board in all sectors.

That is a fair point.

There has been an imbalance between direct support for foreign industry and for indigenous industry, and that matter must be fully addressed. In a study carried out for the Progressive Democrats of medium-sized indigenous industries we were taken aback that the need for more grants was not top of the list — it was substantially down the list — but rather the cost structures that caused difficulties — in other words, the cost of renting property. The cost of renting even an IDA owned property may be prohibitive. We have made some strides in the area of telecommunications.

The Deputy is absolutely right.

The cost base is the determining factor in creating and sustaining jobs. Until such time as our taxation policy marries in with these areas we will not reap the benefit of consistent growth in employment creation and the sustaining of jobs. Small indigenous companies wish to see these matters addressed in the first instance.

Another matter that has been referred to is the possibility of equity investment to ensure seed capital for companies. I recently spoke to companies who had negotiations with the IDA in this regard and I am confused, as are these companies, as to the criteria laid down for equity investment and the demands made by the IDA as to the requirements on companies in return for equity investment. The Minister should consider this matter. There is confusion in the IDA in this regard and the message coming out to people trying to set up companies is by no means clear. There should be clarity and consistency in this area so that the issue is quickly understood.

Equity capital provided through State agencies should be circulated on an ongoing basis. For example, if £500,000 is put into company X and £500,000 into company Y, as that £1 million percolates through the IDA and back into the system it could make £20 million. This is a much better way forward than providing grants, which is dead money. The State should not necessarily try to make profit from its equity. If there is some benefit that would be welcome, but the money should circulate on a continuing basis. As resources are scarce, the more we utilise and circulate money through industries the greater will be the return. We must consider the maximising of available funding on an ongoing basis in those areas. Another matter that must be considered by the Department is the abolition of grants. It is not necessary to abolish all grants.

The Deputy is absolutely right.

There must be flexibility among experts in State agencies in attracting industries and helping them grow. There should be a change from the grant mentality. It is not legitimate to state that that will never exist again. It must diminish in the types of funding available and that money could perhaps be used in better ways. It cannot be removed totally from the agenda.

A point that keeps cropping up is the question of the continuing decrease in employment creation in the manufacturing area. Throughout the world the manufacturing base is consistently falling. The big job creator is the services sector.

We have a 10 per cent manufacturing tax and a 40 per cent tax for the service industries. I do not suggest that the 40 per cent should be reduced to 10 per cent but the gap is too wide. There is tremendous potential for growth in specific service areas. There has been a growth in companies dealing with estates and processing VAT bills and all that sort of thing. The services area is labour intensive and the banks need not necessarily get into this area. The 40 per cent rate needs to be reconsidered with a view to creating an incentive for the services sector. We must recognise the potential for job creation in that sector. In advance of the next budget the Minister will have to take a hard line in terms of the artificial barriers which taxation creates to creating sustainable employment. We can talk here and introduce legislation until the cows come home but the Minister more than anybody must recognise that the greatest barrier to employment creation is taxation. The things we are dealing with will remain peripheral if the core issue of taxation is not tackled. Not alone am I talking about personal taxation but about taxation in areas where companies can be created to give sustainable employment.

I am unhappy with FAS. That is not to say that there are not excellent people in the organisation. I am sure my view represents the view of many politicians who deal with small industries and with people trying to deal with FÁS which has become one of the most bureaucratic self-perpetuating organisations ever. I regret to say that, and it is not a reflection on individual talent in the organisation. What has happened with that organisation in the last number of years greatly distresses me. People dealing with FÁS are equally distressed. Hundreds of millions of pounds are available to be channelled through FÁS but we are not getting the best return for that money. Is that because much of it comes from Europe and we feel we do not have to be quite as concerned about how we spend it? Recently I was approached by a small operator involved in selling computers. Over the last number of years computers and telecommunications equipment has become disposable so that a servicing sector in a small company is not needed. This operator was in the small end of the retail end of the business. He does not have the business any more because now when a telephone or a computer breaks down people get a new one. It became unnecessary in a small company to have full time maintenance staff. The young man had never sought anything from the State and as his job had gone he decided to seek contracts from a number of small companies in the same position and set up his own maintenance company which would employ himself and two others. This 24-year old man went to FÁS. Because I could not believe their attitude I, too, got on to FÁS who confirmed that they would be delighted to help provided that the man signed on at the labour exchange for the next 13 weeks. Words fail me. This young man did not want the dole. He wanted to earn his living but that £60 per week would have made an enormous difference in that it would enable him to buy petrol in order to get around in the car. The man had not the money but all contracts had to be moved straight away once the original company closed down. The man lost his opportunity and he is deflated by the attitude of the State. He considers that perhaps the State wants him on the dole. I am using this case as an example.

That is a good example.

This man wanted to earn his living and create a few jobs but the State said, "sorry, we want to pay you to do nothing for 13 weeks and then we will look at your case". That is the reality of some of the FÁS schemes and how they operate. I regret it.

An Bord Bia should be under the auspices of the Department of Enterprise and Employment. It should not be in the Department of Agriculture. The Government should forget about setting up this body if it is to be in the Department of Agriculture. It must be a dedicated specific marketing organisation for the agricultural sector in its broadest sense. We should not have the poacher and the gamekeeper in the same organisation. There is a legitimate battle to be fought by the Department of Enterprise and Employment who will be supported in this House in the best interests of the food and agricultural industry. I wonder why we needed the agency structure which the Minister has outlined. A point that has been mentioned is that the Department of Industry and Commerce, as it was for decades, failed to be the policy maker.

The primacy of policy making in industry must lie within the auspices of the Department that embraces that area, that is the Department of Enterprise and Employment.

I agree entirely.

It is a crucial element. There has been a huge failure in this area.

It suited politicians in many respects to allow the agencies to decide everything. I compliment the former Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley, who saw this and began to institute the necessary changes. We agree on who should be the policy maker for the foreseeable future; it should lie within the Department.

It is fair to say that never in the history of Irish industrial policy has there been so much hype and expectation surrounding an industrial Bill. Two successive Governments have contrived to cloud their appalling management of our economy on the basis that implementation of the Culliton report recommendations was just around the corner. The impression has been fostered that the Culliton proposals somehow are a panacea for our endemic unemployment problems, a claim which the authors of that report never made. Government Ministers and backbenchers have learned the defensive mantra that they are committed to Culliton. Asked what they are doing about the unemployment situation, invariably the answer is that they are implementing Culliton.

Apart from the budget this is the first legislative measure introduced by this Government that purports to address the jobs crisis. However, anything that could be remotely associated with Culliton has been claimed by the Government as yet another decision implementing Culliton, even when this was purely coincidental. Even when it was not a matter of coincidence, such as the proposed revised telephone charges — the euphemistic term used was rebalancing of telephone charges — it was purported to be the implementation of another Culliton decision. I read the Moriarty report very carefully and I am satisfied it does not do anything except anticipate the EC directive on competition.

Eighteen months since the publication of the Culliton report this Bill does not even mention jobs policy. The Minister has said — I think to the amazement of the public watching or listening — that the Bill was not intended to address policy. I will return to that point later. Notwithstanding the delay, the Bill is a rushed effort characterised by compromise between the partners in Government and running counter to Culliton's proposals. This is not a Bill to simplify, rationalise and render more effective, as Culliton recommended, but rather one that will authorise the creation of three State agencies where previously there had been one.

There will be three new boards, three new chief executives, three new headquarters, and all of the energy-sapping, time-consuming rivalry which accompanies this style of reorganisation. The Bill is the weakened offspring of rowing parents who, for the sake of public appearances, patched up their row in a compromise that has more to do with politics than with industrial strategy.

Now I know why we needed the epidural.

Conceived in the brutal climate of domestic violence that was life in the Fianna Fáil/Progressive Democrats household, this child was not born before Fianna Fáil got a barring order against the Progressive Democrats. When the Progressive Democrats were cuckolded by Labour——

"Scrap Saturday", where are you?

——the Bill was reshaped in the Christmas spirit of good will and compromise. The outcome is a panoply of agencies, excessive bureaucracy and the roots of a new conflict between the wish to locate the industrial effort within a single Government Department and the creation of a new Department which serves only to fragment that effort.

The crucial function of marketing is to be split from the other functions of industrial development. The marketing board. An Bord Tráchtála, will report to the Minister for Tourism and Trade. Forbairt, the agency to stimulate the indigenous drive, will report to the Minister for Enterprise and Employment. This is an unfortunate and unnecessary division. It appears that the Government is destined to repeat its mistake in the pivotal food industry. Attention has been drawn to the Minister's comments on that. Forbairt will have the development of the food industry as a key objective. However, the promotional function is to be allocated to yet another board, this time under the aegis of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry, to be titled An Bord Bia. I could not agree more strongly with what Deputy Culliton——

That is taking the mantra much too far.

One wonders why I made that slip. I could not agree more with Deputy Cullen when he said that, if we must have a board to promote our products in the agricultural area or specifically in the food industry, the last place it ought be located is within the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry. I am thoroughly in the Senator Feargal Quinn camp on his comments on the recent report. If this becomes the preserve of the producers in the industry it will undermine the entire thrust toward industrial development because over the past 25 years our big failure has been to industrialise agriculture to the extent we might have done. Instead of focusing on the industrial drive — as recommended by Culliton — we have five agencies and three Ministers. Of course, that excludes the Minister for Foreign Affairs whose Department could and should logically perform those functions of the Department of Tourism and Trade not allocated more properly to the Department of Enterprise and Employment.

Clearly certain functions of the Department of Tourism and Trade — for example, the reporting function of An Bord Tráchtála — should be a matter for the Minister for Enterprise and Employment. I can see no reason that the foreign, promotional aspect ought not be the task of Iveagh House. This duplication is repeated abroad where this small country finances separate offices for the Department of Foreign Affairs, the Industrial Development Authority and An Bord Tráchtála; indeed, SFADCo is also represented abroad. That is not the end of the story. We are advised that the existing regional structures are imported into this Bill. New regional structures are contemplated within the context of EC structural funding. SFADCo and Údarás na Gaeltachta remain in place. An entire new web of county enterprise boards, remote from the proposed new agencies, inconsistent with existing regional structures, is being put in place. This array of State agencies could scarcely be more confused or confusing, excessively bureaucratic, often contradictory and focusing on the wrong problem.

I accept and have long argued the need to shift the focus of the industrial effort to indigenous industry. More than ten years ago Telesis consultants provided the supportive arguments for that analysis, concluding that Ireland had strong agencies and weak indigenous companies. I do not believe that the solution to our unemployment crisis is to weaken the agencies or create a super agency and subordinate new agencies. I find it hard to be persuaded that the IDA could not have been directed to reorganise so that there was a clearer focus, structurally a separate division, on the development of indigenous industry. I acknowledge that the IDA always has been more successful in accommodating itself to the language of Telesis and, indeed, to the language of other analysts than it has to implementing their recommendations.

However, most people will look askance at the Minister's remarks. They were essentially the same as those delivered in the Seanad except that the Minister has since discovered Monsieur Richard Pascale. I met Professor Michael Enright——

He was in the Seanad.

I read Professor Porter's views but I am acquainted with Monsieur Pascale. It is interesting that Monsieur Pascale has been quoted to justify the structures the Minister proposes to put in place. I am fascinated by the concept of "fit" and "split" and I am sure the Minister will tell us more when he responds.

Go back to the birth pangs of FÁS.

The final sentence of that paragraph reads: "In this regard, I would say with some force that I am much more concerned with getting this balance right than with conforming to some abstract notion of adherence to a precious text". That was the first time I heard a Government Minister refer to the Culliton report as a precious text. There is some truth in the point, nonetheless, having regard to the fact that we sheltered beneath it and that this and the previous Government claimed for so long that Culliton would be our rescuer, it is now the precious text.

The Minister also said: "The fact is that the current agency structures are inhibiting the most efficient and effective development of industry". That is a subjective judgment and the Minister is entitled to his opinion. I presume the advice available to him is better and more structured than the advice available to me but, essentially, I regard that as a criticism of the IDA. For some extraordinary reason SFADCo——

And the perception of the IDA by the market as per Deputy Cullen.

I take the point but this criticism can be justified. It has nothing to do with the present occupant of the post but where were Government Ministers and, indeed, Governments during the past 20 years who thought the IDA could do no wrong? I remember being heavily criticised in this House when I raised certain questions about the efficacy of the IDA, its priorities, concentration and focus. This was tantamount to betraying the national interest. Down through the years successive Ministers have been very happy, not only to praise the IDA without qualification, but to exploit the public relations opportunities provided by it to open a plant and get the kudos.

Absolutely.

In that sense I am uneasy about the fact that suddenly the conventional wisdom swung around to make us believe that the IDA is part of the problem rather than the solution and that we must revamp it and create new agencies.

The IDA, in regard to its glamour role, did what it had to do very well. Unfortunately, it did not accept the argument advanced at the time that, as well as attracting mobile investment, it had to develop the indigenous sector if we were to have a permanent industrial base. My criticisms of the IDA centre on its extraordinary ability to adapt to the language of criticism of its role and not do a great deal about it.

The Telesis report published in 1982 was not the first but it made many of the points which are reinforced in the modern language of today in the Culliton report. The representatives of the IDA were quick, on the equivalent of the "Today Tonight" of the time, "Seven Days", to say that they were ahead of the Telesis report, that some of the reforms had already been implemented and that they were getting on with the task of implementing its recommendations. This did not happen, it took a decade to implement even the more moderate recommendations in the Telesis report, which is regrettable. This has been the predeliction of the IDA in protecting its own institutional role.

However, the IDA has accumulated many skills and acquired valuable knowledge which can only be used to optimum effect in developing indigenous industry if there is interaction between the experience garnered in the international marketplace and in developing domestic industry which can be partially or wholly foreign owned these days. The issue of ownership was dealt with by Deputy Bruton or Deputy Cullen. Interaction is critical and unless we develop and accelerate these linkages we will continue to fail to make any real impact on the jobless figures or build up a strong indigenous industrial sector. Therefore, if the IDA has been trady in relinquishing the glamour role in favour of the hard slog in constructing a strong indigenous sector then it was — and is — the task of the Minister of the day to redirect that focus. On balance, ministerial intervention could, even at this late stage, cause the IDA to concentrate on indigenous industry.

If restructuring is necessary, the IDA, as currently constituted has moved beyond the point of being reformed from within.

Perhaps but I would like to refer to what I think the Minister's reference was when in Opposition — the dual structure or agency, which we do not have. If my argument is out of date, in terms of the capacity of the IDA to reform itself, so be it but my point is that one could have a reorganised Industrial Development Authority and a genuine regional structure beneath it which would obviate the necessity for county enterprise boards. That would be a far simpler, more effective, less costly and wasteful structure for the promotion of industrial development. Less time would then be spent in jockeying for advantage in the new hierarchy and duplication and unnecessary competition would be minimised.

I accept that Culliton recommended two stand alone agencies. As I said, that was the Minister's preference when in Opposition——

As against the super agency which was the alternative.

If the Minister had gone back to the drawing board, it did not have to be the alternative. The Minister's preference has not been given expression in this Bill. This seems to be the classic case of the Minister preferring the dual structure and the Taoiseach, heading the Fianna Fáil element, preferring the super agency. The Taoiseach tells the Minister that he can have his two agencies provided he can have his super agency with the result that we now have the Taoiseach's super agency and the Minister's two agencies. That is the problem.

And 36 county enterprise boards.

Like Deputy Bruton, I give the Minister credit for trimming the wilder fringes of that web. However, it remains to be seen if he will be able to control the lads at local level and prevent them from engaging in wholescale patronage.

The Minister indicated that we are dealing with a technical Bill. Like Deputy Bruton, I think this is regrettable because we have waited a long time to debate the Culliton report in this House. Despite the establishment of new committees and the additional sitting hours, we have not yet had an opportunity to debate the Culliton report in any great detail. Indeed, some of it is now out of date. It is a mistake, in the rush to enact legislation before the House rises, to restrict us to a technical Bill which does not give us any insight into the Minister's views on major policy questions in regard to industrial development, industrial strategy and on wider economic policy today. In so far as the Minister refers to policy questions, for example, equity participation and the role of science and technology, it is by way of justifying the proposed structures; he does not give us any indication of where he or the Government stand on these crucial policy issues. Rather, he justifies the proposed technical structure.

I wish to refer to the four main areas of change which Culliton is seeking in our strategy for industrial promotion. First, he says there is a need for a decisive shift from grants towards equity, taking account of the requirements for attracting the more mobile firms for which we are competing with industrial promotion agencies abroad. We have not heard where the Minister stands on the critical issue of the shift from grants to equity, apart from an untypical slip-up by him yesterday. I was amazed at this slip-up. Deputy Bruton and I — the Minister very kindly arranged a briefing for us the previous day — raised the extent of the shift to equity away from grants and the open-ended approach under which, as the Minister rightly said, we doled out hundreds of millions of pounds in the past without necessarily getting value for money in the process.

It emerged yesterday at Question Time that the Minister had bought hook, line and sinker the new IDA line, that is, "What is Culliton talking about? Everybody knows we have been shifting towards equity; we have made great progress in this area, the graph has been on the way up in recent years". It transpires that progress has been minimal and is declining. When one takes into account the abolition of NADCORP, which had a minimal role in equity participation, — this was one of the ad hoc measures brought before this House rather than a comprehensive approach to the revamping of industrial policy — the IDA's 6 per cent looks even more paltry. I presume the Minister will consult his advisers and the IDA on this matter. There is very little point in paying lip-service to Culliton in the critical area of taking an equity stake rather than giving grants if the situation turns out to be otherwise.

According to the Culliton report there is a need for a refocusing of the target for industrial promotion in favour of promoting industrial clusters. That is the nub of my argument for trying to maintain some coherence and single agency control. We have failed to foster clusters, interaction and the linkages which we so badly need. In fairness, some progress has been made in this area by the IDA in recent years but it is too little too late. The size of our domestic market does not allow us to expand and create jobs, etc. unless, as the Minister said, we feed-in in terms of supply to the multi-national companies located here.

One of the interesting aspects of Culliton's reference to the tax dimension is that he does not put forward any argument for the elimination of a great many of the tax reliefs, tax shelters, etc. In discussing these deficiencies, Culliton failed to mention that the existing tax regime and tax shelters encourage transfer pricing manipulation which, in turn, discourages the development of local linkages — it suits the multi-national corporations to maintain international linkages in order to facilitate transfer pricing. This was exposed in the NESC report of December 1992 entitled, Association between Economic Growth and Employment Growth in Ireland. That report dealt with the phenomenon of transfer pricing, the extent to which the multi-national corporations have used it and which, in turn, raises very serious questions about the reliability of our output and the current account surplus in our economy.

The Culliton report stated that there should be a squeezing of the budget of the agencies to ensure efficiency and value for money. We are deluding ourselves if we think as, apparently, the IDA does — it is on public record as saying it is doing precisely this: perhaps it has been doing this since the open-handed days of the seventies——

It is being done for them.

That is desirable, but the figures show that it is not anything like we would have expected and that the shift has not taken place towards equity. The fact that there will be three agencies competing in this area will mean it will be very difficult for the Minister to do this for them. There will be extraordinary pressure, rivalry etc., and it will be very difficult to squeeze the budget in that area.

The Culliton report suggested that there should be a new deal for the commercial State enterprises, giving them a clear mandate, the resources and day-to-day independence to accomplish this. What can one say about this? There is nothing in the Bill about the commercial State enterprises. It seems that Culliton is a great deal to the left of the Minister in this issue. I cannot see where the Minister is giving these enterprises any clear mandate or resources for this day-to-day independence or to accomplish it. I will not refer to any of the major issues of the day in this area, but this has not happened.

It is regrettable that the Minister has gone for a minimalist approach and that, in order to enact legislation before the House rises, he has come before us with a purely technical Bill which does not afford us the opportunity to debate any of the major or crucial policy decisions which have to be made. How long do I have left?

I made a submission to Culliton on behalf of my party. As the record will show, many of my recommendations are reflected in Culliton's report. There are a number of minor defects in the report which ought to be put on record. We will be inducing a sense of complacency if we somehow go along with the view that if only we could implement the Culliton report we would make a major impact on the level of unemployment.

Absolutely.

The authors of the report have been very careful to point out that that is not the case. We should keep this to the forefront of our minds. One of my minor criticisms is that having raised the issue of industrial policy at EC level in the context of rationalising national aids to industry the report does not expand enough on this point. There is a need to say much more about the requirement to build-up the organisational capabilities of firms if they are to succeed in international markets. Questions such as the size of firms and their corporate structure are largely ignored in the report. While the report argues for the shutting down of many of the tax shelters, ending section 84s, etc., it does not venture into the dangerous territory of how these act as an inducement to multinationals to engage in transfer pricing.

The report also fails to note that it may be part of the general strategy of transnational corporations to split up production among various countries, thereby hindering the development of local linkages. This raises very difficult questions for a small country like ours and makes it all the more important to address this question at European level. If we have a Common Agricultural Policy, I cannot see why we cannot attempt to construct a common industrial policy. It would be foolish to suggest that the Government can address this question within the confines of this island. It cannot and I urge that this matter be raised at European level.

Sir, I wish to share my time with Deputy Hughes.

Carlow-Kilkenny): Is that agreed? Agreed.

The debate on this Bill in the wake of the Culliton report and the subsequent Moriarty task force on its implementation affords us the opportunity to debate at some length the industrial issues of today.

In his opening address the Minister for Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Quinn, said that in the years 1987-92 a substantial number of 118,500 jobs were created but that we lost in the region of 108,600 jobs in the same period. That statistic bears out the very significant change in the industrial base. Further on he states:

... our successes in the field of attracting mobile investment have been obscuring our failure to really get indigenous industry moving.

This debate affords us the opportunity to focus on the reasons for our relative failure to create employment in indigenous industries. It is timely to ask why we have lost so many jobs and where they were lost. I do not have the background information available to the Minister but I believe that jobs have been lost in the labour intensive industries. I can give a statistic I elicited from a parliamentary question some time ago. In 1973 there were 7,000 people employed in the footwear sector but, by 1992, that figure had fallen to approximately 700 people. This is of particular interest to me because the footwear industry was a very significant employer for many years in my constituency of Louth. Unfortunately, the contraction of the industry is reflected in the very high levels of unemployment in Dundalk, Drogheda and Ardee. It is worth asking whether there is an argument for introducing on a pilot basis a special environment for the footwear industry. More people would be employed if the industry was buoyant and, by its nature, the footwear industry is labour intensive and will continue to be.

The Culliton report identifies the urgent need to reform taxation but we are realistic enough to know — having regard to the commitments to the national debt and the range of demands on public expenditure — that this will be a slow and tedious process. It is worth asking whether we should take certain industries and introduce taxation reform on a pilot basis to monitor the impact of the reforming measures in terms of job creation. The failure of our indigenous industry to grow and develop is most disappointing. While we have invested very heavily in our educational structures it is not unreasonable to ask why this investment has not been reflected in more entrepreneurs coming on stream. Is it because the enterprise culture is not as strong in Ireland as in other economies in Europe and round the world? The Minister referred to Professor Porter's book The Competitive Advantage of Nations which supports the importance of the home market. With a population of approximately five million our home market is very small indeed as a consumer market base. Naturally, industries need a home market but they must also export. However, there are additional costs in exporting as a result of transport costs and the attendant marketing structures required.

This debate gives us the opportunity to question our propensity to tinker with our structures. More colourful phrases have been used to describe the establishment of new State bodies. The decision to reorganise the Industrial Development Authority and set up the three bodies which the Minister proposes is quite a dramatic change. We need to establish a demarcation line between the areas of responsibility of Forbairt and the county enterprise boards to avoid any overlap and duplication of roles.

Agriculture is our largest industry and we can learn some lessons from what has happened to it over the years. Up to the early 1970s, agriculture was a dormant and less than progressive sector but on our entry to the Community with the opening up of new markets that changed. Given the constraints of the tenure and size of farms, other factors were at work that ensured the rapid development of the industry. ACOT, now Teagasc, has responsibility for research, advice and development, all essentially operating under the same umbrella. From my experience as a public representative over a long number of years I know — from the various people who have come with an idea for a small industry — that there is a great lack of advisory help. I went to the bother of compiling a list of the various aids, incentives and supports in County Louth and I was quite surprised at the range of services available from statutory and non-statutory sources.

The vast majority of people contemplating setting up their own small industry would simply be unaware of their availability. If an advisory service had been available to individuals who, for some reason or another, were in difficulties with financial management, technical expertise and so on, to guide and help—in effect to act in a guardian angel role—many of the small industries which went out of business might well have been saved. If the Minister and his officials have an opportunity to study in closer detail the role and significance of the combination of advisory, educational and research sections operating within the same organisation there may well be lessons to be learned.

In this House we are all practitioners of the theory of industrial development. Having listened to a fine contribution from the previous speaker, Deputy Rabbitte, one could not but think that the gap that exists between the theory of industrial development and the practical difficulties on the ground is quite significant. This is something we must all bear in mind when deliberating on the subject.

I hope the formation of the new structures for industrial development in Ireland will bear fruit. We need jobs and we need them badly. None of us will pretend there are readymade opportunities on the ground nor that there is potential there which is not being taken up. It is not like that. We are living in a competitive world where production cost structures are relevant to the cost of the product we will be selling into Europe, America or markets outside those trading blocs. The Culliton report clearly identifies the need to get those structures right. I hope that over a period when the new bodies are in place that can be achieved.

I take the opportunity to congratulate the Minister and join other speakers in welcoming the Industrial Development Bill. While I agree it may be a theoretical exercise, I am satisfied that already such practical divisions operate within the IDA both at headquarters and at regional level, with various personnel being primarily responsible for the promotion of the Irish manufacturing base abroad and for promoting indigenous industry. It may be a theoretical Bill but it gives us an opportunity to focus on the necessity to promote industrial development. With 300,000 people unemployed, our manufacturing and service industries have come under the microscope, more particularly the State agencies whose responsibility it is to encourage industrial development.

Having been for many years an agriculture-based economy with agricultural produce still playing a dominant role in the value of our exports, this country has had a fair degree of success in attracting foreign industry and assisting indigenous industry to evolve, to satisfy the sophisticated market requirements of Irish and world consumers. In this age of transparency I support the efforts of the Government in separating the functions of the old IDA. Many Irish manufacturers and potential entrants often felt they were treated as second class citizens or that Irish industry would not be given the same consideration and financial assistance as glamorous overseas projects. I welcome the refocusing of attention on the role of indigenous industry as a vehicle to create growth and employment levels. Unlike foreign industry, who have a plan to establish in Ireland for various reasons — be it to gain a foothold in Europe or, alternatively, because of our extremely attractive taxation regime — Irish manufacturers, in the main, have been unable to make their plant and accummulated skills and workforce mobile. That was particularly noticeable during the last currency crisis when there were several closure threats, one of which materialised and none of the industries involved was Irish-owned.

Today market forces require industry to make radical changes in a very short period if they are to survive at a time of rapid technological change. There is a perception that foreign-based industries have high levels of productivity, that they have been more dynamic and more competitive. Many of our native industries have established very successfully overseas branches and joint ventures which can compete with the best of their competitors abroad. Very few Irish firms can survive without penetrating export markets as the demand on the Irish market would not be sufficient to justify high levels of investment in plant and machinery.

Forbairt, who will have the responsibility of developing indigenous industry, will have a singularly important role to play. It is my belief that our ability to attract overseas industries is diminishing for several reasons, not least of which is the increasing unemployment levels in those countries which originally provided much of our foreign-based industry. We have also seen a tightening up of tax regimes in those countries which has the effect of diminishing the attractiveness of repatriated profit or, at the very least, ensuring that the tax regime here is not taken in isolation when it comes to the taxation of group profits.

I should like to express my grave reservations in relation to the new United States proposals which have been mooted for some considerable time. Reference was made in the media yesterday to the proposal to tax undistributed foreign profits of American companies operating abroad. Such a move could be disastrous for Ireland in relation to existing foreign-based industry here. I call on the Government to mount a vigorous campaign against these proposals. I am deeply concerned about the new legislation which has gone through the House of Representatives which proposed that undisbuted, unrepatriated foreign earnings would be taxed at source. This would blunt Ireland's preferential 10 per cent corporation tax as an incentive in attracting foreign industry. This would also have a greater impact on Ireland because of the number of US firms located here as a proportion of industry. A particularly disturbing aspect of this new legislation is the proposal that all profits retained in Ireland, or more particularly in overseas accounts, would be subject to a retroactive US corporation tax at 24 per cent or a total of 34 per cent, allowing for the 10 per cent Irish manufacturing tax. This would cause considerable damage to investment potential in Ireland and the ability of those firms to develop here. At present many US firms, based in Ireland, are using this country as a means to penetrate the European market but also markets further afield, such as the Far East. These new proposals will handicap them at source and in doing so will stifle the process of job creation. I urge the Government to do everything in its power to campaign against these damaging proposals and to call on our friends in the US Congress — we have friends there — to support us in this objective and to help the Irish Chamber of Commerce in fighting the proposals or, at the very least, to ensure they are watered down and particularly that the retrospective taxation of unrepatriated profits would not take place.

Encouraging US firms to locate here is one of the foundation stones of Irish industrial development policy. This policy has provided us with thousands of jobs over the years. In my own county of Mayo there are at least 2,000 US-based jobs which are the primary industrial force in the county.

Some of our traditional-type industries, particularly clothing and footwear, are the subject of attack from low cost countries and from our own taxation regime which should be more sympathetic to this particular weak sector of Irish manufacturing. We have competitive advantage in certain indigenous industry. Since the imposition of the extra 5 per cent VAT on the clothing and footwear industry in the budget the Minister has had discussions with the representative bodies. Despite the fact that we had been told there would be an examination of the impact of PRSI on low manufacturing costs, that the Minister would consider a market development fund and that there would be a change of focus in relation to IDA grant assistance for machinery, nothing has happened. Last night another company, namely, Baize Textiles Limited lost their support, and the workers and management are doing their utmost to survive. We have already witnessed several closures in the clothing industry.

As a person who knows a certain amount about the industry I appeal to the Minister, three months on from the budget, to respond to the representations he has received, to his meetings with IBEC and to put in place a scheme to reduce the level of PRSI on the low manufacturing base. The clothing industry continues to provide a large number of jobs in Ireland. We talk about indigenous industry; let us put some practical focus on it as a matter of extreme urgency.

Debate adjourned.
Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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