Proinsias De Rossa
Question:4 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the briefing given to him on 7 October 1993 by Mr. John Hume regarding the Hume-Adams talks.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Northern Ireland Developments.
John Bruton
Question:5 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the outcome of his discussion on 7 October 1993 with Mr. John Hume, MP, MEP.
Jim O'Keeffe
Question:6 Mr. J. O'Keeffe asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on his talks with SDLP Leader, Mr. John Hume outlining the matters discussed, the conclusion reached and the follow-up now proposed.
Jim Mitchell
Question:7 Mr. J. Mitchell asked the Taoiseach if, in view of the most recent developments in Northern Ireland, he will consider the reconvening of the New Ireland Forum.
Mary Harney
Question:8 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach if he will give a private briefing to the Leaders of the Opposition Parties on current developments in relation to Northern Ireland.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 4 to 8, inclusive, together.
The leader of the SDLP, Mr. John Hume, briefed the Tánaiste and myself on 7 October with regard to the position reached in his discussions with the leader of Sinn Féin, Mr. Gerry Adams.
In pursuit of the Government's highest political priority to establish a basis for a just and lasting peace and a permanent cessation of all violence, the Tánaiste and I undertook to evaluate carefully the position conveyed to us in consultation with our Government colleagues. With a view to ensuring that this process can make a very important contribution towards building a consensus for peace, the Government is taking full account of it and is deciding how best to continue our efforts in discussions with the British Government for the achievement of the objective of peace on this island. As I said in Bodenstown on Sunday, the two Governments must work together to reach a common understanding in their own terms on a framework for peace, consistent with their international obligations and their wider responibilities to both communities.
As the joint statement issued after our meeting with John Hume states, this work on building a peace process requires much patient effort and preparation. A period of reflection, assessment and discussion is necessary. The Government believes that at this stage confidentiality is in the best interests of peace and that further elaboration is not yet appropriate. However, as I said on Sunday, in the end, everything that is done must be open and above board, and there can be no secret agreements or understandings with organisations supporting violence. Negotiations on a political settlement can only take place between democratic Governments and parties committed exclusively to constitutional methods.
As I further stated in my Bodenstown speech, peace is by far the best path to any worthwhile and durable advance, and it is ultimately the responsibility of the two Governments to provide a framework which would make this possible. As the Programme for a Partnership Government makes clear, the Government seeks to work towards an accommodation between the two traditions in Ireland. I also said in relation to this on Sunday that we must all recognise that a broad accommodation of different identities, rights and aspirations can only be on the basis of freely given agreement and consent. We seek peace without seeking to predetermine the future. The solution to be achieved must be set within the parameters of a definitive renunciation of violence and recognition of the validity of both traditions.
The reconvening of the New Ireland Forum does not arise at present.
In regard to the John Hume briefing of the Taoiseach, will he confirm that the revelation in The Irish Times this morning in regard to the details of what is proposed by the Hume-Adams process is correct? In that context, will he indicate to the House whether he believes that is a realistic basis on which peace can be achieved on this island? Will he not agree that to pursue what is revealed in relation to the Hume-Adams process would require the amendment of Article 1 of the Anglo Irish Agreement which provides that the people of Northern Ireland must agree to any change in the constitutional status of Northern Ireland?
I do not propose to comment on speculation. I regard the comments in The Irish Times this morning as speculation, not revelation, and, consequently, I do not propose to speculate on the matter to which the Deputy referred. Nevertheless, I assure the House, as I did last week and in my speech at Bodenstown, that Article 1 of the Anglo Irish Agreement will remain intact. It is part of an international agreement to which both Governments are committed.
Will the Taoiseach agree that secrecy is the stepmother of misunderstanding and that, to a great extent, unjustified fears have been expressed about what is taking place among sections of the community who are not represented in the discussions? Will he agree that if there is to be commitment to a final agreement all sections of the community must be involved in the process and not just told they can say yes or no at the end of the process?
As I said in my reply, the Government believes that confidentiality is in the best interest of peace and that further elaboration is not appropriate yet. I am sure Deputy Bruton, with his vast experience, knows exactly what I mean in that regard. He and his party were involved in the Anglo-Irish Agreement and the secrecy which surrounded that agreement contributed to its successful conclusion.
Mr. J. Bruton rose.
I now call Deputy O'Keeffe. I will call Deputy Bruton again if necessary, but the Chair believes he should first faciliate Deputies who have tabled questions on the matter.
Will the Taoiseach indicate to the House what approach has been made to the UK Government following the publication of the Hume-Adams report or when he expects such an approach to take place? Bearing in mind the legitimate concerns of the Unionist parties in Northern Ireland, will the Taoiseach say what approach has or will be made to the Unionist parties to discuss the position following the publication of the report of the Hume-Adams talks?
In relation to the first part of the Deputy's question, I again confirm that the report to the Tánaiste and me and, consequently, the briefing we gave to the Irish Government, will not be sent to the British Government. In relation to the second part of his question, I will avail of the opportunity at the summit in Brussels on 29 October to have a discussion with Prime Minister John Major on the developments and I will convey my views to him. Representatives of the Unionist parties were invited by the Tánaiste to meet for talks in relation to this matter, both the Tánaiste and I have availed of every possible opportunity, in his context and in mine, to assure members of the Unionist community that peace is on the agenda, but peace without a predetermined future.
The Taoiseach did not rule out reconvening the New Ireland Forum at a future date. Will he confirm that it is his intention to consult the parties through some forum similar to the New Ireland Forum at an appropriate time? Also, will he acknowledge the difficulties with which we are faced because constitutional parties in the Republic are excluded from the talks while great efforts are being made to include an unconstitutional party in Northern Ireland?
There are no plans to recall the New Ireland Forum. If the Government believes at some future date that there is a need to recall it, all constitutional parties will be contacted. In relation to the question of exclusion, nobody is being excluded in regard to this development. I am present in the House each week to reply to questions and the Tánaiste and I supply the House with what we believe to be appropriate information at present. Deputy Mitchell is an experienced politician and I am sure he will agree that many things are better left unsaid in the development of a peace process. It is a very sensitive area and matters can be interpreted incorrectly by some of the parties we are trying to bring into the fold. Consequently, we believe we are adopting the correct approach. At the end of the day, everything will be above board. There will be no secret agreements and, when appropriate, we will release more information. However, in the meantime we believe we are following the best path to arrive at a consensus for a peace process which will rebound to the credit of all Members of this House.
Does the Taoiseach believe it would be a breach of confidentiality to give a confidential briefing to the Leaders of the Opposition? Did the Taoiseach brief Nelson Mandela during his recent discussions with him in relation to the Hume-Adams talks?
I did not give the detailed briefing that has been suggested to Nelson Mandela. He asked about the present initiative towards peace and he made it clear during his press conference that he supported the peace process and paralleled developments here with what happened with his organisation, the ANC, in South Africa. Apart from that I gave no detailed briefing. Nelson Mandela made his comments and support quite clear and it was unsolicited despite what some people may think. I did not commandeer him or capture him in Glasgow and bring him here as some people suggested. He wanted to come here, he came here and he has great respect for the efforts of Irish people down through the years in relation to apartheid and to the actions of successive Irish Governments. There was no detailed briefing in relation to that. We will continue to develop matters as we think fit and we will inform the Opposition parties. However, I would refer the Deputy to the Anglo-Irish Agreement which was in gestation for a long time. The Opposition at that time was not consulted in regard to it and, consequently, the Government of the day was able to do its business and bring the Agreement forward. I would ask the Deputy to afford us the same support and respect for confidentiality as we afforded the Government then.
How would a confidential briefing to Leaders of the Opposition breach confidentiality?
Briefings in Cabinet would breach that confidentiality and, therefore, briefings outside Cabinet would also breach confidentiality.
I propose to call Deputies who tabled questions on this subject again for a second round of supplementary questions. I would ask them to ask brief and relevant questions.
Will the Taoiseach agree that it is time he made a comprehensive statement of Government policy in regard to Northern Ireland and that it is unacceptable that we must on a weekly basis extract information from him in respect of his attitude to the situation in Northern Ireland and the possibility of political progress there? In relation to a new phrase I heard the Taoiseach use today, "peace without a pre-determined future", will he tell the House what precisely that means? Is it one of the terms in use in the Hume-Adams briefing or is it used in the context of discussions between the Taoiseach and the Prime Minister of Britain? Where does this new concept fit in with Government policy?
I ask for brevity.
It is my own phrase, it is nobody else's phrase, it was not coined by anybody else and this is not the first time I used it.
What does it mean?
I have said on numerous occasions in this House, and outside, that if we could get a cessation of violence it will change the whole environment in which political talks and dialogue can take place. I have made it clear that I am not putting a condition on a peace process of a pre-determined future before we have peace. I did that on a number of occasions.
When does the Taoiseach expect that Provisional Sinn Féin will say that it does not support the continued campaign of bombing by the IRA and is it not about time it said that?
I do not know how many times I have said that I abhor and denounce violence and everyone connected with it. I have made it abundantly clear and it is rather facetious of Deputy Bruton to ask me to repeat it. Everybody knows that most Members are against violence and it is not necessary to ask for that to be stated every day of the week.
Will the Taoiseach agree that it is hard to take seriously the democratic credentials of people who continue to use violence to this day and who support the use of violence for their ends? Should we not ensure we do not give respectability to people unless and until they foreswear violence?
I have said repeatedly that there is no place at the table, and there will be no place at it, for people connected with violence until there is cessation of violence. I have made that position clear and I will not change it. If Deputies continue to ask the same questions I do not have much option but to repeat myself. I must say that violence in the North of Ireland is coming from both communities, it is coming from Loyalist paramilitaries and the Provisional IRA. The Loyalist paramilitaries have repeatedly put statements on the public record to the effect that their violence is reactive to other violence. I would logically suggest to anybody who is interested in developing a consensus for peace and a cessation of violence that they try to bring about an end to violence on one side in the expectation of a response from the other side. That is the position and I hope I do not have to repeat myself. Everybody is against violence but we must recognise that if we can get a cessation of violence we will have peace in this country and be able to live ordinary lives and in that atmosphere we will be able to plan for the future.
The Taoiseach must be aware that the vast majority of people on this island want peace and reconciliation, a political settlement, as quickly as possible. Certainly, they want the violence to end. On a best case scenario will the Taoiseach give an indication as to what the Government's thinking is in regard to what the future steps might be in the coming months which would lead to a cessation of violence and to that political solution? What are the Govenment's best hopes in that regard? If the Taoiseach expressed a view on this there would be a rallying of support for that from all sections around the country.
I do not know what more signals the Deputy can ask for from me. We are continuing our efforts to build a consensus for peace and to follow a strategy that hopefully at the end of the day will lead to a cessation of violence here. That is the direction we are taking and the strategy we are pursuing. In the light of that everybody should understand exactly what we are trying to do. We must make a fine judgment in this regard and we will not endanger the process at this stage by having various comments made in the public arena as to what the position should or should not be because this would force people into positions they may not wish to be in. We believe the way we are handling this process at present is the best way and when the appropriate time comes we will inform Deputies further.
The Taoiseach has spoken unambiguously today and previously about his position on peace and that view will be shared by almost every Member. However, does the Taoiseach not see the difficulty in that the IRA has managed to get to the centre of talks with the SDLP? Many people see it as a sickening spectacle that the Irish Government should be playing second-hand roles, the British Government a third hand role, our parliamentary Opposition a fourth hand role and the Unionists a fifth hand role in relation to those talks? Does he not see the great suspicions and problems that this gives rise to?
I do not speak for any other House of Parliament except this one and I reject totally any suggestion that the Irish Government is playing second fiddle or a messenger to anybody. I have made it clear that any suggestions we make to the British Government in relation to the pursuit of a strategy to which we are engaged will be made by us, they will be our suggestions. I totally reject that we are second class citizens here or that those in the House of Commons are third class citizens. That is not the position. At the end of the day it is up to the two Governments to agree a common position in relation to this matter and to lay down the conditions between the two Governments and that will be the position.
The Taoiseach referred to a process, will he give details of the key elements of the process, who is involved and at what stage is the process? Will he give an assurance that his Government will not directly or indirectly become involved with any individual or group unless there is a cessation of violence and that that would be a prerequisite?
I have already stated on two occasions today and on numerous other occasions that the conditions for a seat at the table for Sinn Féin is a cessation of violence.
May I ask——
One moment Deputy. I have allowed a second round of questions on this subject which has been dealt with adequately——
It has not.
——and there are other very important questions to the Taoiseach which I am sure the House wishes to deal with. I will hear a final brief question from the Deputy.
The Taoiseach said that the British Government will not be briefed on the Hume-Adams process. Is he saying that the British Government will not be briefed by the Irish Government? Does the Taoiseach know if the British Government will be briefed by John Hume, because, presumably, it will not be briefed by Gerry Adams? With regard to the statement made by Gerry Adams — and it is extraordinary that all sorts of statements are made outside this House but that we cannot have a debate here — Gerry Adams made two points, one that his requirement and the requirement of the IRA is that there must be a British response on the basis of national self-determination for all the Irish people and the other is that a cessation of violence cannot be a prerequisite in this process. Does the Taoiseach seriously think——
That should be adequate, Deputy.
Will you leave that to my judgment?
No Deputy, the Chair will decide these matters. The Chair is in charge of Question Time——
I am asking the questions.
——and supplementary questions. The Deputy has had quite some latitude and he should now bring his questioning to a conclusion.
If you would let me conclude my questioning we would waste less time.
I asked for brevity.
I am being as brief as the subject permits.
As the Chair permits.
As the subject permits.
I said that the Chair is in control here, Deputy.
The subject is even more important than you. Given those statements by Gerry Adams, does the Taoiseach feel that progress can be made on that basis? Will he indicate to the House what other process he is engaged in to seek to have the democratic parties in Northern Ireland, the British Government and the Irish Government sit down in negotiations about the future of Northern Ireland and the achievement of the ending of conflict between its people?
I do not intend to comment in this House on any aspect of statements made by Mr. Gerry Adams. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Sir Patrick Mayhew, made his position clear, the British Prime Minister has made his position and that of his Government clear, that they will listen to any suggestions or proposals from the Irish Government in trying to find a path to peace in Northern Ireland. Yesterday in the House of Commons the British Prime Minister made it clear that he felt compelled to listen to what the Taoiseach might say in relation to any suggestions he might have in trying to bring about a cessation of violence. I have already said that the report of the Hume-Adams talks will not be passed on to the British Government. It is up to us to decide what proposals to make to the British Government and at the end of the day it is up to the two Governments to consider what progress can be made.