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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 23 Nov 1993

Vol. 436 No. 1

Criminal Justice (Public Order) Bill, 1993: Report Stage (Resumed).

Debate resumed on amendment No. 44:
In page 9, line 5, before "on summary conviction" to insert "having elected for summary disposal of the offence,".
—(Deputy M. McDowell.)

I listened with interest to Deputy McDowell's contribution on his amendments last week and I am aware from that and a similar contribution he made on the subject on Second Stage that he has strong views on this matter. In cases where assault on a garda is alleged, he believes the dice is excessively loaded against the defendant in the District Court. I accept the Deputy's view is based on his extensive experience in criminal trials and on his perception of the realities involved. Obviously, I do not have that type of personal experience, but I am sure the Deputy will accept that his perception of those realities and the conclusions to which that leads him would not inevitably be shared by all his colleagues in the legal profession. Indeed, the case has been as strongly put to me that in such circumstances the District Courts are more than adequately geared to deal with those matters and that the balance of public advantage does not lie in having automatic recourse by the defendant to Circuit Court hearings. I do not wish to adopt an inflexible approach in this matter, but I am sure the Deputy will appreciate that the conflicting views to which the matter gives rise pose a genuine dilemma.

I have a proposal to make which might meet some of the Deputy's concerns but is unlikely to be entirely acceptable to him. Before doing so let me put the matter in a general context. The general approach which has been taken in recent years in relation to the creation of new statutory offences is that it should be left to the Director of Public Prosecutions to decide in an individual case whether the offence should be dealt with summarily or tried by a jury. In the event that a case is brought before the District Court which the judge considers, by reason of its seriousness, should be tried on indictment, he or she will decline jurisdiction and send it forward for trial in a higher court. This is the approach which has been taken in section 18, dealing with assault with intent to cause bodily harm or commit indictable offence, and section 19, which deals with assault or obstruction of a peace officer. That general approach is a sensible one and, in relation to section 18, I see no compelling grounds for departing from it. As I have said, this has been the norm in legislation for many years.

I appreciate however that different considerations may apply in relation to section 19 in that that section is intended as a direct replacement for section 38 of the Offences against the Person Act, which this Bill proposes to repeal. It is the case at present that the offences under section 38 of the Offences against the Person Act are included in the Schedule to the Criminal Justice Act, 1951, and the effect of this is that these offences can only be tried at present summarily where the accused elects for this. This would not be the case with the offences proposed under section 19 of this Bill unless Deputy McDowell's amendment is accepted.

In view of the complex issues which arise in this area generally I intend in the context of the Miscellaneous Provisions Bill, which I have under preparation at present, to examine the question of the approach to the election to opt for summary trials and in particular the scheduled offences under the 1951 Act, including those relating to the assault of a peace officer. In the circumstances I would not be unhappy in the meantime to keep the present arrangements in relation to assaults on peace officers in place. Accordingly, my proposal would be to accept amendment No. 45 without prejudice to the outcome of the general review. For the reasons I have already outlined I would not be prepared to accept amendment No. 44.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 45:

In page 9, line 23, before "on summary conviction" to insert "having elected for summary disposal of the offence,".

Amendment agreed to.
Amendments Nos. 46 and 47 not moved.

We now come to amendment No. 48, which arises out of Committee proceedings. I observe that amendment No. 49 is related and it is proposed therefore to discuss amendments Nos. 48 and 49 together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 48:

In page 9, line 41, to delete", a member of the Defence Forces, a sheriff or a traffic warden" and substitute "or a member of the Defence Forces".

As Deputy Mitchell will recall, we had a lengthy discussion on the definition of peace officer on Committee Stage and on the question of whether it should be extended and, if so, to whom. Therefore there is no need for me to go into this matter in great detail now. For the reasons outlined on Committee Stage, I was unable to accept Deputy Mitchell's amendment. That is still the position. I instanced as an example the case of a prison officer who was assaulted in a cell and to which there are no witnesses. However, it is my understanding that the Deputy's amendment was motivated primarily by his concern at the time about the proposal to extend the definition of peace officer. In this regard, I hope this amendment will go some way towards meeting the concerns expressed by Deputy Mitchell and others during the course of the discussion on Committee Stage.

The Minister has gone some of the way towards meeting the concerns expressed on Committee Stage about the proposal to extend the definition of peace officer and in particular what might give rise to obstruction of the peace officer. Section 18 of the Bill deals with assault with intent to cause bodily harm or commit an indictable offence. It states that on summary conviction a person shall be liable to a fine not exceeding £1,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months and that on conviction on indictment a person shall be liable to an unlimited fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years. These are substantial penalties. I wondered therefore why it was necessary to extend the definition of peace officer in section 19. Illustrations were given to highlight the fact that in the past traffic wardens among others have been subject to abuse. While this is inexcusable, section 18 covers this matter adequately.

Section 19 provides for a prison sentence of up to five years on conviction on indictment and a fine not exceeding £1,000 and a term of imprisonment not exceeding 12 months on summary conviction where any person resists or wilfully obstructs a peace officer. Again, these are substantial penalties. I felt we were going too far in providing for a term of imprisonment of up to five years where a person resisted a traffic warden, for instance. That was unnecessary. While this amendment goes a long way towards meeting the concerns expressed on Committee Stage by a number of Deputies, I am concerned that reference is made to a member of the Defence Forces. I wonder under what circumstances members of the Defence Forces will come in contact with the civilian population. It is my understanding that this happens almost exclusively when they are accompanied by a member of the Garda Síochána. For example, members of the Defence Forces manning a checkpoint are always accompanied by a member of the Garda Síochána who directs traffic to stop. Members of the Defence Forces act in support of the civil authority.

There is an important principle at stake here. While I do not want to take from the role played by members of the Defence Forces, which is an important one. I wonder why the Minister is insisting that the reference to members of the Defence Forces should remain. If a member of the Defence Forces is asked to carry out his or her duties on a public street, for example, it should be possible to have a member of the Garda Síochána present. If a member of the civilian population resists or wilfully obstructs that member of the Defence Forces, will that member of the Defence Forces be entitled to arrest that person and will his or her word be accepted? Would it not be sensible to say that in all circumstances a member of the Garda Síochána, in accordance with present practice, should be present? Therefore, it is unnecessary to extend the definition of peace officer to include a member of the Defence Forces.

The Defence Forces comprise the Army, the Air Corps and the Naval Service. I can well understand that members of the Defence Forces serving in the Air Crops and the Naval Service have to carry out certain duties and would be happy if the Minister decided to restrict the definition to these.

It is wrong to pass legislation which makes it a criminal offence to wilfully resist or obstruct a member of the Defence Forces in the execution of his duty. I have doubts about that because the border between the Defence Forces and the civilian population should be kept intact. It is a matter for the Garda Síochána to uphold the law; the Defence Forces are there only in support of them. If this is necessary for fishery protection, we should specify that. However, it is my understanding that, even in those circumstances, it is usual to have a member of the Garda Síochána on board a ship when an arrest is imminent.

Amendment No. 49 provides that "notwithstanding anything contained in this section, where any person is charged with an offence under this section in relation to a peace officer who is not a member of the Garda Síochána, the evidence of such peace officer alone shall not be sufficient to establish the charge". Where the peace officer is not a Garda, a third party should be present to establish the charge because it is an unnecessary incursion into the rights of people that members of the Defence Forces should now have rights over civilians and that under this legislation the words of a newly created peace officer could be accepted on its own against that of a civilian. That is a dangerous thing to do, and I say that without casting any slur on the Defence Forces who play a very important role and must be supported. The Judiciary, the Legislature, the Government, the Garda and the Defence Forces all have different roles. I hope the Minister will accept my amendment because there should be some additional protection for members of the public coming into contact with this newly created peace officer.

I support Deputy Mitchell's amendment. There is a dangerous development proposed in this legislation which brings the Defence Forces very much into the area of civilian public control. This legislation is, after all, about public order; it is essentially about policing civilians in public places. The distinction between the role of the Defence Forces and the Garda Síochána must be maintained. We have seen what happens in other jurisdictions when the Defence Forces are given a role in civilian policing. The Defence Forces are not given that role here except in exceptional circumstances where they act in support of the police force, and that is their proper role. In this section the role of the Defence Forces is being redefined; they are being given essentially a policing role. That is a dangerous development and should not be implemented in the way proposed. Deputy Mitchell's amendment seeks to address that in a particular way.

This is not the first time legislation of this kind came before this House. I recall that in legislation dealing with telephone tapping there was provision to give the Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces a role in authorising telephone taps. We now have this second occasion where the Defence Forces are being brought out of barracks, so to speak, and onto the streets. That is not good for the respected role of the Defence Forces in this State. It is very worrying. The amendment Deputy Mitchell has tabled seeks to address the problem, and I support that.

I agree with the thrust of Deputy Mitchell's amendment. The Defence Forces see themselves solely as a support to the civil power and do not want a role for which they are not trained. Coming from a family with a military tradition I can say that military people I have known would be very uncomfortable in such a role and conscious that they are not trained for it. I am not sure that the wording of this amendment is adequate but I certainly support its spirit.

I thank the Minister for taking into account the points made in regard to sheriffs, traffic wardens and others. We need to address the question of the inclusion of the Defence Forces. It is possible that where the Garda called in the Defence Forces to aid the civil power, anybody who assaulted a member of the Defence Forces would be doing so because such member was acting in aid of the Garda. It would seem reasonable in such case to include the member of the Defence Forces because if the Garda do not have the assistance of the Defence Forces when they need it, with the same rules applying to the members of the Defence Forces acting in support of the Garda, there would be a difficulty. Perhaps the Minister would clarify that point.

In regard to the Minister's amendment in relation to sheriffs and traffic wardens, I emphasise it does not mean that this House does not accord status to these officers. There have been sheriffs, traffic wardens, park attendants in this city and around the country, appointed legally and operating within the law who have been assaulted, we cannot condone that.

I should like to satisfy myself as to what is involved in this proposal. The retention of members of the Defence Forces suggests that the Minister is being careful in certain circumstances to draw a distinction between a member of the Garda Síochána and a member of the Defence Forces who are both in attendance where there is a riot and there are assaults on both. If additional powers are not given to officials or officers other than members of the Garda Síochána I, like Deputy Walsh, would be sympathetic to what the Minister seeks to establish here. I look forward to clarification of this matter by the Minister.

Regarding Deputy Fitzgerald's first point, nobody is sending a signal from this House that in some way it is correct to assault or interfere with a traffic warden or a sheriff or to condone the most recent vicious attacks on people who could be regarded as peace or fisheries officers, particularly in the midland regions. Nobody condones that type of attack and the full rigours of the law must be applied to people who engage in that type of activity against those who have been appointed by the State to uphold law and order.

As Deputy Walsh pointed out, this section does not propose to grant extra powers to the Defence Forces, nor does it propose to redefine their role. The role of the Defence Forces is clearly set out in legislation and has been maintained by every Government. It provides that they may be called out from time to time to aid the civil power. No member is suggesting that where a member of the Garda and the Defence Forces are controlling a riot and both are badly injured, we should not distinguish between the imposition of penalties on those causing the injury. The legislation ensures that where the Defence Forces are deployed to aid a civil power, which is the only case in which they come into contact with members of the general public — I am not suggesting that this should be extended — penalties imposed in respect of an attack on a member of the Defence Forces should not be less than those imposed in respect of an attack on a member of the Garda Síochána. I hope no Member disagrees with that position. It is important that the amendment I tabled which includes a member of the Defence Forces, is accepted by the House and I would not accept any dilution. No redefinition of the role for the Defence Forces is proposed. No one is suggesting that the Defence Forces will now be out of control in regard to maintaining public order on our streets. They are not being given the power of prosecution or arrest, that power remains with the Garda Síochána. The amendment provides that where a member of the Garda and a member of the Defence Forces are working together to control a riot and where both are seriously injured, the penalties imposed in respect of injury to a member of the Defence Forces should be no less than that imposed in respect of an injury to a member of the Garda.

That concludes the debate.

Two amendments were taken together.

Sorry, Deputy.

On Report Stage I have a right to reply to my amendment.

Order. When amendments are taken together only the mover of the amendment, in this instance the Minister for Justice, has the right to reply.

It was only agreed to take the amendments together after the Minister moved her amendment.

I was not in the Chair at that time.

That is what happened.

In this instance I will allow the Deputy to reply, normally that would not be allowed.

We would love to hear what the Deputy has to say.

I note the Minister did not reply to the points I made in respect of my amendment; she may have overlooked them. I join the Minister in saying that the House is sending out a message that nobody would tolerate an attack on any public servant in the circumstances she outlined and the full rigours of the law under section 19 would apply in such cases. Section 20 singles out the Defence Forces and the Garda Síochána. Traditionally the role of the Garda Síochána involved dealings with civilians which the role of the Defence Forces did not. The argument which the Minister applies to the Defence Forces surely applies to the protection of fisheries officers, many of whom are perhaps more vulnerable at sea or on lakes because they are not armed to deal with thugs who endanger their lives. In one case a life was lost. It is difficult to understand why it is not proposed to extend that provision to include fisheries when it is considered necessary to extend it to include members of the Defence Forces. There is an important principle involved here. I accept the Minister's amendment greatly improves the position in relation to the points I made. However, I consider my amendment is necessary to safeguard against a peace commissioner, who is not a member of the Garda Síochána, giving evidence against a member of the civilian population. I am disturbed about the reasons for including the Defence Forces in such a selective way and I hope the Minister will accept my amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 49:

In page 10, between lines 5 and 6, to insert the following:

"(7) Notwithstanding anything contained in this section, where any person is charged with an offence under this section in relation to a Peace Officer who is not a member of the Garda Síochána, the evidence of such Peace Officer alone shall not be sufficient to establish the charge.".

Does the Minister accept my amendment?

I dealt with that amendment in my initial response and when I spoke on amendment No. 48. This amendment is similar to one Deputy Mitchell tabled on Committee Stage. At that Stage I explained I was unable to accept it. The case I instanced at that time was of a prison officer being assaulted in a cell to which there were not witnesses. I considered it was important that the law as it stands and what is proposed in this legislation would remain unchanged. If we were to accept what Deputy Mitchell proposes no case could be made against a person who might assault a prison officer in a cell in the absence of witnesses. I accept Deputy Mitchell is concerned about this matter but I have gone a fair distance along the road in my amendment to alleviate his concern.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 50:

In page 13, line 5, after "phone" to insert "facsimile transmission,".

I shall be pleased if the Minister accepts the amendment. If there is no controversy in relation to the remainder of the amendments the House may wish to conclude the Bill.

There is a controversy.

Deputy McDowell said that if I accepted the amendment he would not speak on it. I will accept the amendment.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 50a not moved.

I move amendment No. 50b:

In page 13, between lines 10 and 11, to insert the following:

"24.—In the case of Local Authority flat complexes where the evidence of tenants on the criminal or unruly behaviour of other tenants cannot be obtained due to intimidation or fear, the Court may take into account the word of a Garda, not below the rank of Superintendent, that the tenant is behaving in a criminal or unruly manner, as evidence in any application by a Local Authority for a court order to evict, or otherwise penalise, a local authority tenant.".

This is an important amendment and one to which we should return in the morning.

Debate adjourned.
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