Deputies expressed many views on this Bill yesterday.
Social Welfare (No. 2) Bill, 1993: Second Stage (Resumed).
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now a read a Second Time."
When the House comes to order——
I thank Deputies for their very wide-ranging contributions to this Bill yesterday——
Will Deputies please leave the House as quietly as possible? The conversation in the lobby can be heard in the House and constitutes disorder.
The contributions of Deputies yesterday were wide-ranging and apposite and it was particularly interesting that so many of the Deputies who spoke represented coastal areas. It showed deep involvement by the Deputies with constituents in the fishing industry throughout the country. There was a genuine desire to deal with this problem which has proved so intractable. I am happy that the Government has agreed to a special scheme to deal with the problems of share fishermen and I will try to answer all the points raised in the limited time available to me.
Deputy Coughlan raised the issue of the 12 months disability benefit and what would happen after that. If people in that position do not have any other contributions they can apply for supplementary welfare allowance until they requalify for disability benefit. The 13 week limit for unemployment benefit will assist fishermen as the cost of the benefits will exceed considerably the income likely to arise from them. Nevertheless, in the interest of solidarity, to which a number of Deputies referred, the Government agreed to make those provisions.
Deputy Coughlan and others were concerned about accidents on boats. I will consider that matter although to make provision in that regard would involve considerable cost. Deputy Doyle suggested a roll-over arrangement into the following year in respect of the 13 week limit for entitlement to benefit and I will consider that possibility. In some years boats are not tied up as long as in others and we will consider the possibility of making provision over a three year period in that regard. The matter can be discussed in detail on Committee Stage.
Deputy Coughlan also raised the question of reducing the time span from now until 1 January 1996, when share fishermen will receive benefit. Some of those fishermen may have paid up contributions which will allow them to receive benefit earlier. Deputies Doyle, Allen and others wanted the date brought forward but, again, that would involve considerable costs. However, I will examine the matter.
It is an exceptional case, we are talking about only 2,000 people.
It is an exceptional case, but the money might not be available. It would also set a precedent and that is a major problem for my Department in respect of social welfare matters. Some Deputies raised the matter of the precedent for back payment in respect of some contributions and that can also be considered in more detail on Committee Stage.
Deputy Doyle referred to the Court cases since 1986 and that she has been endeavouring to come up with a solution to the problem for the past four years. I will consider the roll-over concept which she suggested. She made comparisons with the UK, but such comparisons always pose problems for us because there is a large number of contributions in the UK which provides them with more scope and resources for introducing special schemes. Our scheme relates to our system and is workable. I had discussions with fishermen and they would be happy to accept a scheme along those lines.
Deputy Bell is concerned about the method of assessment for unemployment assistance. He has taken a great interest in social welfare matters for many years and usually deals with the finer points. From time to time assessment for unemployment assistance poses problems for people classified as self-employed. We will examine that matter in future but, again, it would involve modifying and controlling the system. Improvement in the management and control of the system puts an onus on the Minister and his officials to use more flexible arrangements to provide a better service. There is always a danger that improving the management and control of the system will allow people to sit back and relax because the finances are under better control and one can be sure of what is happening. Such improved technology and management puts an onus on us to consider the needs of our customers and serve them in a better way. I will reconsider the method of assessment for unemployment assistance to the self-employed to see if it can be done in a more meaningful way for people who barely make ends meet in self-employment. In many cases self-employed people are under-employed. We are inclined to believe that they are well off and earn high incomes but the majority of them earn very low incomes. Deputies Doyle and Coughlan made that point yesterday in respect of share fishermen whose average incomes are between £6,000 and £8,000. That is why I am anxious to provide benefits for the self-employed, the majority of them need the support we have provided by way of pensions, especially the windows' and orphans' pension. I am conscious of the needs of the self-employed and will examine them. Deputy Bell referred to the difficulty in making payments and suggested a fixed monthly premium and a simple and workable method of payment. I will bear those comments in mind.
Deputy Sheehan, who has a well known interest in ports and fishermen, welcomed the Bill and made many comments on it. He highlighted the fact that the first day for payment of benefits will be 1 January 1996, the day when the Spanish and Portuguese will be allowed greater access to our waters. He is correct in that regard.
Many of our fishermen will be claiming unemployment benefit then.
I am sure the Minister for the Marine will consider the matter before then. Deputy Bell stated that fishermen have been in limbo since the court cases but that he is happy with the arrangements. However, he finds it difficult to understand why a skipper of a boat cannot be boss, but that matter was covered in the court decision within which we must work.
Deputy O'Donoghue pointed out that this was the third social welfare Bill this year. The first of these was introduced after the budget which, in addition to the budgetary provisions, also dealt with many other issues. This was followed by the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act and now by the Social Welfare (No. 2) Bill.
I wish to pay tribute to the officials in my Department who do the bulk of the work with the support of the parliamentary draftsman's office and the Attorney General's office. As ordinary civil servants, if there is such a thing, who specialise in this area, they have set high standards when it comes to the preparation of legislation. This means that in conjunction with the parliamentary draftman's office we are efficient in the preparation of legislation. I assure the House that the parliamentary draftsman's office is particularly pleased with the service provided by my Department because this allows it in turn to offer advice and do its work effectively and quickly making few errors in the process. As this legislation is complex it is easy to make errors.
Deputy O'Donoghue also raised the issue of appeals. In this regard he mentioned in particular clothing manufacturers and highlighted the difficulties caused by the increase in VAT. He welcomed the fact that consideration was being given to the possibility of restructuring the PRSI system. However, he was concerned about the delays in dealing with appeals. In this regard I recently appointed two extra staff to the appeals office — the figures show that the position has improved — and established a decisions advisory office which is headed by a senior appeals officer to try to improve the quality of decisions. We have delegated authority to officers to make decisions — deciding officers — and it is their decisions that are appealed. Through this office we hope to improve the quality of decision and, consequently, reduce the number of appeals. In certain instances it is difficult for officials to make decisions as the position may not be clear. Very often this is not clarified until a decision is appealed. With better information and advice it should be possible to clarify the position sooner and thereby reduce the number of appeals.
Deputy Cullen said that the position in the fishing industry was unpredictable and sought the introduction of regular payments to facilitate those engaged in share fishing to make it worth their while to work. He also felt much progress had been made in dealing with the issues of fraud and abuse and welcomed the moved being made in relation to PRSI to encourage people to take up employment.
Deputy Kirk raised the issues of importance to fishermen on the east coast, particularly in the Drogheda area while Deputy McGinley, who is well aware of the position in the fishing industry in County Donegal, expressed concern about the difficulties facing fishermen there. He asked me to meet with the Killybegs Fishermen's Organisation. I recognise the contribution made by that organisation and I am anxious to meet with them. We had hoped to meet at the beginning of this week but this proved inconvenient for the fishermen because they had business to attend to in Europe. We are due to meet on Wednesday next, 1 December. The Deputy also expressed concern at the fact that disability benefit will be payable for a limited period only and would like to see it paid sooner.
Deputy Kenneally pointed out that, so far as he was aware, there were no millionaire fishermen in County Waterford. Indeed, Deputies pointed out that there were no millionaire fishermen in any of the coastal districts. Like Deputies McGinley, McCormack, Byrne and Doyle, the Deputy sought support for the industry.
Deputy Byrne expressed concern about the figures of 13 weeks and 12 months and wondered what would happen once the period of 12 months expired. In particular he raised the issues of accidents and occupational injuries. Deputy Ó Cuív also raised these issues.
It can be seen therefore that one of the main themes running through the contributions of Deputies is the need to make provision for occupational injuries. Again, we are talking about money. However, I will give this matter some attention.
Deputy Allen spoke about those who occasionally work and run into difficulties with my Department when they fail to declare the income earned. At my clinic yesterday — as Deputies are aware, I have a clinic each morning — I met one such gentleman who is a plumber by profession and managed to get some work. He found himself in the position described by Deputy Allen. We have to find a better way of dealing with these people given that they are under-employed and can get some work. In addition, they are not aware of all the opportunities available. Given that they are self-employed they could avail of the back to work allowance for a period of up to two years during which rates of 75 per cent and 50 per cent would be payable. They would be allowed to retain their benefits. That scheme would present them with a good opportunity to make a start. Deputy De Rossa also touched on this issue.
The point is that there is a mechanism in place under which unemployed people can do occasional work and continue to claim their unemployment benefit. I introduced this provision in this year's Social Welfare Bill. I took regulatory powers in the 1993 Act under which unemployed people who do occasional work can earn the equivalent of their daily rate of unemployment assistance plus £15 in respect of each day worked and still qualify for the full rate of assistance for the remaining days of the week on which they are unemployed. For example, an unemployed person with a dependent spouse and three children can earn up to £37 for each day worked without affecting his or her entitlement to unemployment assistance for other days of unemployment in that week.
In recent years I made every effort to make information available. I sat down with officials of my Department around the country and told them that people are not aware of the schemes available. When we introduce new provisions we forward fact sheets to Deputies and Senators but it takes effort to get this information to the people who need it. We are putting job facilitators into the main offices so that people may discuss their problems, just as is done in TDs' clinics. Generally people in social welfare offices are under too much pressure and there is always somebody else waiting. People need time to short out their problems. This new system is functioning now and much effort is being put into getting information to people individually.
There are probably other ways of treating people who are really under-employed rather than unemployed. Recently a councillor from my party complained to me about people working and drawing the dole. I had the cases investigated, about 20 in all, and what was going on in every case was legitimate but, because people see a person working one day and drawing the dole another day, they think something crooked is going on. That is not the case and people in lofty positions, such as the Governor of the Central Bank, should understand that. They look for flexibility and as we become flexible things will look different. It is necessary to tackle the problem of the under-employed and that was emphasised by Deputy Allen, Deputy De Rossa and others.
Will the Minister comment on the anomalies in the Christmas bonus?
That is complicated because when a person goes on disability benefit, having been on unemployment assistance, the whole household income changes.
The income may be reduced.
Very often it is not. If the other person in the household is earning, the person in receipt of benefit gets it at a lower rate. However, I noted the point made by the Deputy and I will look into it.
Fishermen sometimes get into debt to moneylenders because of their situation. The Minister has introduced pilot schemes, but when will we see the Credit Control Bill? This is important in the run-up to Christmas.
I agree. Like Deputy Allen, I am conscious of the problems. The different elements, banks, credit unions and community welfare officers etc., must be brought together. This has been done in Cork in a very sophisticated way and great credit is due to the people involved. That system now operates in a number of areas. It is particularly important that people get support at Christmas time. The Credit Control Bill is complex and includes many elements. It will probably be published before Christmas.
I want to reply to a point raised by Deputy De Rossa. As part of the normal Government procedures for the award of public sector contracts the contractor is required to obtain a tax clearance certificate from time the Revenue Commissioners. To obtain this certificate all payments due by the contractor in respect of PAYE, PRSI, VAT and corporate taxes must be up to date. These procedures will continue to be strictly enforced. This is particularly important in view of the substantial number of contracts to be awarded over the next few years as part of the very significant investments under the National Development Plan. This will ensure that contracts are only given to bona fide and legitimate contractors whose tax and PRSI affairs are in order.
Having a tax clearance certificate means that the contractor's tax and PRSI affairs are in order at the stage at which the contract is awarded. However, it is important to ensure that the contractor continues to meet his obligations under tax and social welfare codes. My inspectors will be particularly vigilant in this area. I assure the House that all public sector contracts will be inspected on an ongoing basis for the duration of the contract. Any employers who fail to meet their obligations will be strictly dealt with under the income tax and social welfare Acts. In this context arrangements are being made to have my Department notified of all sizeable contracts awarded, particularly in the case of investments under the National Development Plan.
I am issuing a clear warning at this stage because the Government is about to issue huge contracts over the next few years under the Structural Funds. We will crack down very hard on public sector contracts and others to ensure that they comply with the wishes of this House.
When will this Bill be taken in Committee?
It is proposed to take it next week, subject to agreement between the Whips.
The Minister indicated that there will be a number of important amendments which he described as simple. However, they have major implications. I hope they will be published well before Committee Stage is taken.
Not only will we publish them well in advance, we will give the Opposition spokesman a special brief; we are now doing for Opposition spokespersons what is done for Ministers.
Question put and agreed to.