Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Dec 1993

Vol. 436 No. 6

Greyhound Industry (Amendment) Bill, 1993: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. McGahon

During the debate last night I reiterated my opposition to the cruel and barbaric sport of hare coursing. However, that does not prevent me from recognising the validity and potential of the greyhound industry, which is a nice little earner for the economy. It should be developed, but unfortunately in recent years there has been a definite downturn in the industry, which was at its height in 1970. It is difficult to establish a specific reason for its decrease in popularity, but the variety of other sporting activities available to people and the lack of money in peoples' pockets are probably the main reasons.

We should foster and support the greyhound industry but I would draw the line at the barbaric activity of promoting coursing. I want to express my objection to and scepticism about, the measures introduced at the behest of the Irish Coursing Club, who successfully lobbied a large number of Deputies from all sides of the House. Statistics clearly highlight that the majority of people are revolted by the cruelty endemic in hare coursing. Many people are ashamed that we continue to turn a blind eye to that barbaric sport. The majority of Deputies in this House have no experience of coursing, although I understand the Minister has a genuine interest in dog racing.

Unfortunately, some years ago I indulged in the awful sport of coursing and was so sickened by it that I put my dogs to sleep and never went back to witness the sport again. Anybody who owns a small dog would not like to see it savaged by a rottweiler. A small timid animal such as hare is a flesh and blood creature and feels similar pain to that of a dog who might be attacked by a savage rottweiler or mastiff. That is why I fail to understand the indifference in this Chamber to the suffering of a little hare.

The Irish Coursing Club obviously fed propaganda to Deputies. Many justifications for the sport were given yesterday, such as the employment prospects. If we built a munitions factory we could supply the terrorists of the world with ammunition and that would create employment, but would that justify the building of such a factory? We are concerned about cruelty to animals. There are many laws in place to which we turn a blind eye, but if a dog or cat is cruelly mistreated those who inflict the suffering can be charged and sent to jail. Yet we turn a blind eye to the cruelty inflicted on a little defenceless creature such as a hare. Deputy Gregory gave evidence that at a coursing meeting which took place some time ago hares drowned themselves in a desperate desire to escape from the jaws of death. During the previous debate on this subject I stated that I witnessed small hares dying from heart attacks when hotly pursued by greyhounds. The screech of a dying hare is terrifying, it is similar to a child crying. I fail to understand how people can justify such ill-treatment of a hare, one of the most timid of animals.

In court yesterday evidence was given about a rabbit having his back legs tied with baler twine by a top internationally rated trainer. That is only the tip of the iceberg. The Minister is well aware that dogs are given a taste of blood to make them run faster and win the race. That is happening in every county. It is appalling. In some cases cats are used if a rabbit or hare is not available and we in this Chamber are turning a blind eye to such cruelty. Recently this House legalised the most obnoxious act in the world, that of homosexuality, but we are turning a blind eye to the suffering of timid animals. Such contradictions do not do our country any service.

I am totally opposed to coursing in its present form. I am not opposed to drag coursing, the successful adaptation that is used in Australia, where no cruelty is involved. I do not want to see the Irish Coursing Industry totally destroyed and, some time in the future, public opinion here will force the ICC to look at the modus operandi in Australia, and the sooner the better.

As to the Minister's proposal to nominate six people, I hope they will not be from the showbands, and that they will not be party hacks but will have a genuine background and interest in the greyhound industry. I support the notion of coursing on Sundays, but I draw the line at holding meetings on Good Friday and Christmas Day. There must be some standards, and I hope that will be upheld.

Mr. O'Leary

I welcome this important Bill. For too long the greyhound industry has not been given the attention it merits. At present we are setting up a national plan for our economy with the twin aims of job preservation and job creation. This Bill is especially welcome in that it addresses those objectives in the context of the greyhound industry. The greyhound industry is small in terms of the Irish economy, but its smallness is entirely disproportionate to its potential which is considerable; there are 10,000 people engaged in this industry.

Like the horse, the Irish greyhound is recognised world-wide as an animal of spirit and excellence. Both the bloodstock and greyhound industries are an integral part of the fabric of rural Ireland. To urban Ireland this may seem fanciful, but it is part of what we are. It is a deeply-rooted cultural pursuit. To those families actively engaged in breeding and training dogs and horses and to followers of those sports this is not merely business or pleasure but an active part of their heritage. That is the historical context of the Irish greyhound industry and should not be forgotten.

This Bill could be seen partly as a response to Deputy Gregory's Wildlife Bill. That short-sighted Bill sought, with the zeal of the puritan, to throw out the baby with the bath water. Although the Bill had many shortcomings, Deputy Gregory performed a most useful service by focusing the spotlight on the greyhound industry. Reading the debate on his Bill, I was struck by how hysterical it was at times. I hope this debate will be an altogether more calm affair, more in tune with reality.

The aspect of this Bill which will attract most public attention is section 3. This allows the Minister to make regulations for the muzzling of greyhounds at coursing meetings and, further, for the provision of veterinary inspection of all animals involved. A penalty of £1,000 is provided for and I hope it will be rigorously applied.

I favour the muzzling of greyhounds and deplore cruelty to animals. Coursing with muzzled greyhounds is a great deal more humane than shooting, fishing or fox hunting. It is certainly more humane than the ways in which the lives of most hares are brought to an end anyway. Romantic notions of animal life in the wild are unfounded. However, I support the humane treatment of animals and I believe this Bill goes a long way to ensuring it.

Coursing is an important and integral part of the greyhound industry. It helps to develop the industry in a most productive manner. It has helped to enhance the ability of greyhounds on the track. It should be noted that American and Australian breeders are importing Irish greyhounds with coursing bloodlines to rejuvenate the chasing instincts of their existing bloodlines. It is felt by these breeders that their hounds' chasing instincts have suffered since the outlawing of coursing in those countries. It should also be noted that coursing bloodlines were present in the pedigree of 77 per cent of winners of major track events in England and Ireland in the past ten years. That is an excellent record.

Provision for veterinary inspection is also provided and I especially welcome that. We must sincerely hope that these regulations, taken together, will greatly improve the image of coursing. The Irish Coursing Club has done much to regulate itself but the public perception is that that is not sufficient. I attach no blame to successive generations who have been involved in the management of the board. As politicians we must acknowledge that if the greyhound industry is to develop the necessary action must be taken.

In the recent past Bord na gCon's problems have been compounded by the fact that they are operating in an internationally depressed environment. For the year 1991, the last year for which the board has published an annual report, key figures are down. Betting with bookmakers and on the tote declined to £33.6 million in 1991 compared with £35.6 million in 1990. There was a decline of 6.05 per cent in bets placed with bookmakers. In the case of the tote the figure for 1991 was £6.75 million, a decline of 4.05 per cent. In comparison it must be observed that betting at greyhound tracks fared much better than at horse races where bookmaker betting declined by 18 per cent in 1991 compared with 1990. Greyhound racing internationally fared much worse than in Ireland. In the United States tracks reports a 12 per cent decline in turnover while attendances in the United Kingdom dropped by 9.6 per cent with a 10.9 per cent increase in tote turnover. In Ireland betting was down in 1991, as was attendance, by almost 3 per cent compared with the previous year. This is against a background of increased prize money and sponsorship. Prize money increased by 4.3 per cent. The total purse in Irish greyhound racing of £2,098,423 was an all-time record in greyhound sponsorship history which increased by 3.5 per cent in 1991 and represented a 27.9 per cent of total prize money payout.

The underlying problem is under-funding and funding is vital if this sector is to achieve its potential. Historically the industry was funded by a share of the tax on on-course betting. This proved inadequate. In 1990 the historic decision was taken that the industry would, for the first time, have a share of tax on off-course betting. This business amounts to some £300 million a year. In 1990 half a million pounds went to greyhound racing, £3 million went to horse racing and in 1991 the amount for greyhound racing was increased to £750,000. The Department of Finance takes in about £30 million each year in taxes on betting on horses and dogs. We must recognise the need to invest in and develop the business.

Bord na gCon is responsible for 18 centres and the managements of many of these dog tracks are crying out for development which is necessary if the industry is to survive and become more profitable. In the long term we must dispel the penny wise attitude as this makes neither financial nor economic sense. We should bear in mind that Ireland is the leading exporter of greyhounds. Our exports business is worth £40 million a year and has enormous potential. This must be tapped now.

There is one other noteworthy aspect of the greyhound industry: it is drug free. Bord na gCon has its own drug testing centre. As we are primarily involved in the breeding of greyhounds the board recognises that every greyhound in every major race is a potential breeding animal. Accordingly, every runner is tested. In addition, there is random testing at less important race meetings. The results are to the credit of all those involved in the industry.

I call on Dáil Éireann to see what the future holds for the greyhound industry in an Irish and European context. We must urgently examine the question of funding for Bord na gCon. By under-supporting the greyhound business we are, in effect, depleting a vital national asset. The effects of this are felt in rural Ireland where up to 6,000 small holders and others are actively involved in the industry.

My fellow county man and chief executive of Kerry Foods, Mr. Denis Brosnan, who is also a member of the Racing Board, was quoted recently in the Irish Field as saying that success in business equates with strategy multiplied by capability mulitiplied by capital. We need a viable plan if we are to secure sustained growth in the greyhound industry.

At European level the Government and the European Union have formally agreed that the breeding of greyhounds should be regarded as an alternative enterprise. Like any rural Deputy and as a former owner of greyhounds, on the coursing field and tracks, I am aware of the appalling problems associated with depopulation. An entire range of agribusinesses is needed to sustain populations which may otherwise disappear. The breeding of greyhounds has the potential to be one such project. We provide subsidies for products for which there is no demand, yet the greyhound industry which is a profitable and sustainable business remains unaided. What is the reason, for example, we cannot introduce a headage payments scheme for greyhounds of a certain standard and class? I have been advocating this for some time. It is time that the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry, in conjunction with the Department of Finance, looked at the industry in a positive light.

I compliment the Minister of State, Deputy O'Shea, on introducing this legislation which is timely, appropriate and badly needed. It is my hope that it forms only one aspect of a broad and far-reaching plan for the greyhound industry. I also compliment him and the Minister for proposing that the ban on greyhound racing on Sundays, Good Friday and Christmas Day should be removed. I wish to share my time with Deputy Kirk.

An Ceann Comhairle

I would have much preferred if the Deputy had indicated earlier at the commencement of his speech that he wished to share his time as it places the Chair and the House at a disadvantage.

Mr. O'Leary

I am sorry.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair assumes that he may cross the floor to call another speaker if no indication is given that a Deputy wishes to share his time at the commencement.

Mr. O'Leary

Shall I continue?

An Ceann Comhairle

If you wish——

Mr. Crawford

We agree.

An Ceann Comhairle

——but if the House so agrees I will call Deputy Kirk. I merely indicate that when time is being shared this should be mentioned at the commencement of the Deputy's speech. Otherwise, the Chair assumes that he can cross the floor and choose a speaker from the other side.

Mr. Kirk

I am sorry if there was any misunderstanding. I thank Members across the floor for their co-operation in this matter. This Bill provides us with an opportunity to have a comprehensive debate on the greyhound industry which is long established and has considerable potential. In recent times, however, the industry and hare coursing in particular, have been the subject of controversy and criticism. Most people who have the future prosperity of the industry at heart will recognise that this criticism has impacted on the image of the industry. I sincerely hope that the provisions of this Bill will repair the damage caused, particularly to hare coursing.

The coursing fraternity clearly accepts that there is a need for muzzling at coursing meetings. It appears that the Minister's request that greyhounds be muzzled is being observed. Yesterday a number of speakers dwelt at some length on the ongoing need for research and development into different types of muzzle. It will be some time before the perfect product is available. Several types are being used with considerable success. I hope this will allay the fears of those who have been critical of what has been happening at coursing meetings.

On the question of the rearing and breeding of greyhounds, I think everyone accepts that this forms an integral part of rural culture. Anyone who reads the speech by the Minister of State yesterday will readily appreciate that it is of significance to small holders and rural dwellers. Many were surprised by the statistics he quoted and to learn that so many people were involved in the industry in rural and urban areas. It provides many small holders with an opportunity to top up their income. This ensures that their holdings remain viable.

By its nature, the industry is export oriented and its value to the economy cannot be under-estimated. The figure of £40 million is significant. However, there is an urgent need for investment in facilities across the country. Track meetings are in direct competition with other social activities. Between 1975 and 1992 there was a decrease in attendances at race meetings. That is a pity. If the managements of our greyhound stadia are to attract people, investment in facilities will be necessary to upgrade them.

When I was in the Department of Agriculture, Food, and Forestry, I had regular contact with people in the industry and I know there is a great need for an investment programme. Bord na gCon has a five year investment programme but, for any programme to be successful, adequate resources must be provided. The Department is considering the introduction of the Leader development programme, Mark II. In that context I hope the greyhound industry will be considered with a view to its benefiting from the programme and the industry being developed at every level, not alone in the breeding and rearing of dogs, but in regard to customer comforts. The latter is an important aspect in achieving wider participation in the industry and increased attendance at greyhound meetings. The industry has much potential which would be worth developing.

Mrs. T. Ahearn

I wish to share my time with Deputy Finucane.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sure that is satisfactory and agreed.

Mrs. T. Ahearn

This Bill is unsatisfactory. It is a dismal response to the problems of the greyhound industry. This is disappointing, if not incomprehensible, considering that the Minister is aware, and has admitted, that the industry is in a poor state. Unfortunately, he has wasted this valuable opportunity to present a proper and comprehensive response to the problems of the greyhound industry.

It is crystal clear from the Minister's speech that his main ambition was to introduce legislation that would be uncontroversial. That is an alarming approach for a Minister to adopt. It displays a pitiful lack of courage confronting the problems within the greyhound industry. In saying that the legislation is uncontroversial I take it the Minister is appealing to Members to understand that he cannot deal yet with all the problems he knows exist. It is unfortunate that the Minister said this legislation is uncontroversial because it pinpoints clearly that, even in his view, it does not tackle all the problems within the industry.

I come from south Tipperary where the greyhound industry can be regarded as one of our indigenous industries. I agree with Deputy Dukes that the Minister is misguided in saying that greyhounds are an alternative farm enterprise. Deputy Dukes rightly disputed that claim and said that the majority of those involved in the industry are involved because they enjoy that activity as they enjoy other rural pursuits. We do not see many of those involved with greyhounds becoming millionaires. They are involved in the industry because they love the sport and the animals. However, those who keep greyhounds do not make substantial amounts of money from their enterprise. Those of us who live among those involved in the industry know it is a family undertaking in which children are as passionately involved as their parents. As a previous speaker said, the greyhound industry is part of our rural culture.

I welcome the many improvements in coursing in recent times. Speaking previously in this House, I stated that those involved in coursing were as interested and as concerned in improving the reputation of the sport as Members are in this House. I said they were responsible people and that I knew many of them personally. In recent months their commitment has been obvious in terms of the time, dedication and sense of urgency they have given to bringing about many changes in the industry. These changes are welcome. The dismal reputation of the coursing industry was shameful but we must recognise that those involved have made great improvements and deserve credit for that.

From speaking with those involved in coursing, I am aware that they are satisfied that the muzzling experiment is working well. Thankfully, very few hares are killed now during coursing meetings. The percentage of hares killed has reduced to nearly 1 per cent. The change in regard to muzzling was necessary. I am pleased the experiment is working well and that it has been undertaken in a sincere and passionate way by those involved in the industry. Those people made many other changes, too, in an effort to improve the reputation of coursing. There is strict scrutiny at all coursing meetings and new regulations have been introduced to reduce from 88 to 72 the number of courses that may be run in any day. There is provision, too, for a veterinary inspection to be carried out prior to and during coursing meetings and the industry has employed a number of experts in hare husbandry to call to clubs and advise members on such matters as feeding, medical conditions, hare paddocks and what should be done to ensure that the hares are healthy and well looked after. I congratulate the ICC on the good work it carries out.

At present muzzles are used at semifinals and finals only but I look forward to the day when, following the enactment of this Bill, that practice will be compulsory at all coursing meetings. The ICC agree with this provision in the Bill and I welcome its support in that regard. It has undertaken also to supply medication for the treatment of diseases common to hares. The improvements to which I have referred prove the point I made during the previous debate on coursing in this House — that the ICC are anxious to ensure that hare coursing has a good reputation. The club has undertaken a study into the type of muzzles used. Initially light leather muzzles were used, but they were found to affect the breathing of the greyhounds. Plastic muzzles are used now and they are found to be satisfactory. This proves that every effort is being made by the ICC to ensure that hares are not killed during coursing.

I welcome the section of the Bill which extends greyhound racing to Sundays. This provides the industry with the same advantage as is enjoyed by groups involved in other leisure pursuits.

We must recognise that families are interested in hare coursing and in the greyhound industry. Any sport which a family can enjoy together is welcome. With the advent of Sunday coursing that will be possible so far as that sport is concerned.

I have grave objections to the section of the Bill which deals with representation on Bord na gCon. I object to it mainly for two reasons. First, guaranteed representation on the board by members of the ICC has been excluded. Secondly, the Minister has not made any attempt to ensure that women are represented on Bord na gCon. Greyhound racing is a leisure pursuit in which women not only participate but have been very successful. We know from the Programme for a Partnership Government that the Government is committed to giving women a 40 per cent representation on State boards. I am tired of Ministers talking of aspirations. When will they have the courage to put those aspirations into practice? The Minister had an opportunity in this Bill to include a section that would provide for at least two of the six members of the board being women. Such a provision should be included on Committee Stage. I know of women in my constituency who have been successful in this industry. Mrs. Ann Heffernan and her family, for example, have had a long tradition of success and have given great commitment to the industry. In case I am accused of being parochial, I should mention that women such as Mary Nolan and Marie Field are noted for their contribution to the industry. If the Minister fails to make provision for the appointment of two women to Bord na gCon, we must question the Government's commitment to the 40 per cent representation of women on State boards. I plead with the Minister to include that provision in this instance. It should be only a simple matter for him, but it is very important to those who are committed to equal representation, to ensuring that people who would be valuable members of a board be represented on that board.

I cannot understand why the Minister has excluded guaranteed membership to members of the ICC. To date its members have proved excellent. They have acted impartially and have represented not only the interests of coursing clubs but of the greyhound industry generally. The failure to give them guaranteed membership in this instance is a slur on their reputation given the efforts they have put into Bord na gCon in the past. There is no justification for excluding them. Why treat Bord na gCon differently from the Irish racing authority on whose board the Irish Coursing Club is represented? There is a total contradiction in the approach of the Government to the horse racing industry and the greyhounds racing industry. Why is there one set of rules for the horse racing board and different rules for the greyhound board?

The Irish Coursing Club represents not only coursing clubs but also owners and breeders. It also operates greyhound racing in the Six Counties. In recognition of the active and important role it plays in that industry the Irish Coursing Club should be represented on the board of Bord na gCon. The Minister should seriously consider this matter. I have serious reservations about representation on Bord na gCon. If we want to bring about the many changes required in coursing and ensure it has a reputation of which we can be proud, surely the Irish Coursing Club must be represented on Bord na gCon.

I look forward to a favourable response from the Minister in regard to the changes I have suggested which are necessary to improve the Bill. I look forward to membership of women on the board and also on the Irish Coursing Club.

Mr. Finucane

This Bill is being introduced as part of the wider review of the Greyhound Industry Act, 1958. It would have been wiser to carry out the review first and then introduce a Bill to address the overall problem. I am concerned that this Bill has been introduced in reaction to a sequence of events in recent times and that it may need further modification when the wider review is completed. In recent times this industry has suffered from bad publicity and this Bill may drive a wedge between the Irish Coursing Club and Bord na gCon. It is unfortunate that the Irish Coursing Club, which was previously represented on the board of Bord na gCon, will not now have the privilege of having three executive members on that board. That may lead to a polarisation of the greyhound industry.

Following the recent contentious matters appertaining to the greyhound industry, that industry is trying to get its act together. The greyhound industry is worth about £40 million to the country. A 1990 survey revealed that the coursing industry alone is worth more than £14 million. Therefore, it is a significant industry. The Minister and I were guests at the recent Irish St. Leger in Limerick which was very enjoyable. The Blue Riband meeting in Limerick attracts a huge crowd and everybody seems to enjoy themselves. From talking to executives of Bord na gCon, it appears they would like to see further improvements in the track in Limerick and indeed in other tracks around the country to attract more people and make the events a family occasion. At present there are severe restrictions on finance for this purpose. That matter should be considered more favourably in future. Much emphasis is placed, and rightly so, on the horse industry but the greyhound industry, due to lack of finance, has been the poor relation and that should be rectified.

As the Minister is well aware, coursing has been held in my county for a long time. More coursing meetings are held in Limerick county — in Glin, Newcastle West where I live, Abbeyfeale, Rathkeale, Kilmallock, Galbally and Clounanna — than in any other county. The greyhound industry is a great source of entertainment for many people in the community. In recent times people in the industry have been concerned, particularly about the bad publicity following the unfortunate incidents that took place in Clounanna, and the fact that this matter is being addressed in the Bill is welcome. Prior to the introduction of the Bill the Irish Coursing Club, on its own initiative, tried to introduce changes, particularly in regard to muzzling, to deal with this problem which was an embarrassment to the industry. I hope the modifications proposed in the Bill will be successful and will improve the industry.

Statistics show that finances from the greyhound industry, particularly on the tote, have fallen considerably. The industry should be made more attractive and positive incentives are needed to ensure its future success. One stimulus to the coursing industry would be the introduction of coursing meetings on Sundays, as proposed in this Bill — the view has been expressed that they should be held on Christmas Day also. This move would be welcome because in many cases meetings are held over two days and Saturday-Sunday meetings would attract larger attendances.

A large number of women are interested in coursing and regularly attend meetings with their husbands. Therefore, it is important that women be represented on the new board of Bord na gCon. I have been criticised at times, even by some of my colleagues within Fine Gael, in regard to the 40 per cent female representation rule on boards. This matter was raised in a recent debate here by the Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Taylor, who said that heads would have to be knocked together to ensure that women are appointed to various bodies. In this case the Minister, who will make the appointments to the board, has an opportunity to appoint women. There is no point in talking about 40 per cent women membership and asking private bodies to ensure a gender balance if we do not give the lead. The Minister has an opportunity in this legislation to give the lead and I support my colleague, Deputy Ahearn, in that regard. In her capacity as chairperson of the women's affairs group she is very concerned about this matter. The Minister should consider this question when making the appointment.

Mr. Gallagher

(Laoighis-Offaly): I am grateful for the opportunity to support the Bill.

I refer to the comments by the two previous speakers about the need to ensure that women are represented on the board of Bord na gCon. I do not think they have cause for concern in this regard. One has only to look at the recent appointments to the commission dealing with people with a disability and the Independent Radio and Television Commission to see that Deputy Ahearn's aspirations are being put into practice. I have no doubt that women will be represented on the board of Bord na gCon, which comes under the jurisdiction of the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry, Deputy Brian O'Shea.

I am concerned about the remarks that the Bill is unsatisfactory and will not deal with the wider needs of the greyhound industry. I do not recall either the Minister of State, Deputy O'Shea, or the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry, Deputy Walsh, claiming during the debate on the Wildlife Bill earlier this year, or this debate, that this Bill will meet all the needs of the greyhound industry. Both the Minister and the Minister of State have said that further legislation dealing with the wider needs of the greyhound industry will be introduced in the House next year. The completion of a review should not impede us at this stage in addressing the very important issue of the killing of hares at coursing meetings. If we try to long finger this issue by saying it is tied up with the review of the entire greyhound industry we will be totally disregarding the concerns which have been expressed by many people outside this House. I welcome the fact that the Minister has taken immediate action to deal with this issue in the Bill.

I do not agree with Deputy Ahearn's suggestion that the Minister is showing a lack of courage. I do not see how that charge can stand up. Members of Deputy Ahearn's party held the Agriculture brief on a number of occasions over the past 20 years and none of them showed the courage displayed by the current incumbent of the office in addressing this issue. This Bill is timely. I compliment the Minister of State, Deputy Brian O'Shea, who has responsibility for the greyhound industry, for the speed and diligence with which he has applied himself to the task of improving the greyhound industry in its totality and eliminating the killing of live hares at coursing meetings, an issue which has caused much concern and disgust both in Ireland and other countries.

When Deputy Gregory's Wildlife Bill was debated in the House earlier this year the Minister of State referred to the many technical defects in it, which could if implemented, have resulted in making the situation in regard to live hare coursing worse rather than better. On many occasions through the years Private Members' Bills which may have much merit have been sidelined by various Governments with a promise of Government legislation, which very often was not introduced. I am happy that the Minister of State has not allowed this to happen on this occasion and has tackled the problem. Last Tuesday we saw ano-there examples of the Government's willingness to tackle issues when it accepted Deputy Shatter's Private Members' Bill. I compliment the Minister of State, Deputy O'Shea, on the speed with which he has dealt with this matter.

The Minister is to be commended on his approach, which was outlined by him during the debate on the Wildlife Bill earlier this year. He stated:

I have at all times been open to and anxious to hear the views from all sides of the industry, including views on coursing.

I consider that the question of hare coursing must be handled sensibly if it is not to become a significant source of conflict and division in our society. There are many lines of division to this issue. It is not, as some people suggest, a simple division between town and country, although there are elements of this in the debate, and there is a strong lobby in rural areas in favour of coursing. It is not between animal lovers and animal haters... The divide seems to me to be placed more accurately between the extreme views which are taken at the margins at both sides of this issue and both sides are attempting to attract the middle ground in this issue through intensive lobbying and media attention.

In conclusion he stated:

A clearer approach to the problem would be to identify the specific element of the activity which it is sought to prohibit and then to proceed by legislation to prohibit that activity. Otherwise there is a serious risk of the measure resulting in unforeseen and unintended effects.

I compliment the Minister on the way he has listened to the arguments on all sides of this debate. He has formulated a set of proposals which I believe will meet the needs of most of those who are concerned about animal welfare and those who are concerned about the greyhound industry. I also wish to acknowledge Deputy Gregory's work in this regard. I am sorry he did not see fit to allow his Bill to proceed for further work by the Government. I am sorry that Deputy Gregory, who highlighted the issues, cannot accept the Minister's proposals which I believe will succeed in tackling the problem.

No doubt there will be some people on both sides of the argument who will not be happy with this Bill. However, we cannot allow ourselves to be influenced by extremists in any argument. We have to look at both sides and try to formulate a commonsense approach which can be put into practice. The approach outlined in the Bill is feasible, practical and, most importantly, it can be implemented.

I am particularly concerned with the aspects of the Bill relating to the welfare of hares used at coursing meetings. I think all people who claim to be interested in animal welfare will agree that significant steps are being taken in the Bill to improve the situation in this regard.

The Bill will not only give the Minister power to make regulations providing for the muzzling of greyhounds participating in events, but will also allow him to make regulations providing for veterinary inspection of coursing meetings and of the animals taking part in such meetings. This represents a significant strengthening of the Minister's powers in this area. The Bill provides for the supervision by vets of hares coursed in events prior to being run, during the event and after the event. This will eliminate the appalling practice of hares being repeatedly coursed, a practice which has taken place at many meetings.

The Bill will allow vets to prohibit the coursing of hares if they are not considered fit to be coursed in the first instance. It will also give them powers to prevent either dogs of hares being used in coursing meetings if they are not considered suitable for the purpose. The Bill will put in place a wide range of animal welfare regulations. The most important provision in the Bill is the one dealing with the muzzling of greyhounds, which will eliminate the killing of hares at meetings. This will prevent a recurrence of the dreadful scenes at many coursing meetings, including the meetting at Clounanna earlier this year to which Deputy Finucane referred.

Some people will argue that the Bill does not go far enough and that we should ban the coursing of hares altogether. Many Deputies have already made this point. I believe that view is short-sighted and impractical. The Oireachtas should never enact laws which cannot be implemented in practice. If we simply try to ban coursing outright by way of legislation it will end up in the same fringe or shady area as dog fighting and cock fighting. Both these practices are banned but, as we all know, they take place. It would be much more difficult to ban coursing, which is much more widespread, than either of those two objectionable practices.

Another reason coursing cannot simply be banned by way of edict or legislation is that it is tied up with the entire greyhound industry which plays a very important part in the lives of ordinary people, particularly those in rural Ireland. It is often said that dog racing is the ordinary person's version of horse racing. Many ordinary people of limited means can take part in the breeding of greyhounds and become involved in the greyhound industry. These people derive much enjoyment from their activities and they are certainly not cruel to animals.

When the Wildlife Bill was going through the House earlier this year I was walking down the street in my home town one evening when I was approached by an agitated young man who was concerned about it. Given that he was young and that he was a town dweller I assumed he would be in favour of banning hare coursing completely. However, when I outlined to him my views on the matter and what the Minister was proposing to do he breathed a large sigh of relief because he and a number of his friends were involved in a small way in the breeding of greyhounds. The banning of coursing, as sought by the advocates of Deputy Gregory's Bill as well as some of the opponents of this Bill, would have deprived many of those people of the simple enjoyment of the greyhound industry.

To drive this widespread area of interest underground simply would not work. It is a far better approach to bring the greyhound industry into a better regulatory fram work which will be open to supervision by the Minister and by this House. The provisions of this Bill are a very good means of achieving the objective of greater control, supervision and support for the industry. It is far more appropriate to have a framework of law and regulation which allows proper supervision and improves standards in the greyhound industry, which allows for the inspection and the monitoring of the use of hares at coursing meetings and which recognises at the same time the importance of the greyhound industry in rural Ireland rather than to simply ban the practice or stick our heads in the sand and pretend that horrible things are not happening simply because we have passed a law in this House which says that they should not.

I would ask all those involved on both sides of the argument to accept that this proposal is the most practical one available to us at the moment. Those who are concerned with animal welfare should recognise that this Bill is introducing significant provisions to improve animal welfare, not only for hares but also for greyhounds and, most importantly, bans the practice of live hare coursing. Those involved in the greyhound industry and coursing in particular should accept that the muzzling of greyhounds is necessary if the industry is to be preserved and promoted in the future and I would ask them to do their bit to ensure that the provisions of this legislation are implemented in practice. I would ask them also to co-operate with these regulations and with the veterinary inspectors who will be supervising the meetings and to ensure that the greyhound industry, which is an important part of our economy and of life in rural Ireland, not only continues but prospers to the economic benefit of many people in the future. I commend this Bill to the House.

Mr. Shatter

I am glad this legislation is before the House. I regret the manner in which the Government is addressing these issues but at least we are being given a further opportunity to discuss them.

It is fair to say, as other speakers have said, that this legislation would not be before us if it had not been for the Bill Deputy Tony Gregory brought before this House in the summer. That Bill forced this House to address a number of issues and one particular issue that had for too long been ignored, namely, the cruelty involved in live hare coursing.

My views are well known on this issue. I will not delay the House unduly in expressing those views other than to say that this Bill does not do what the previous speaker suggested — it does not ban live hare coursing. It does nothing of the sort. The previous speaker is somewhat confused in that regard.

Mr. Gallagher

(Laoighis-Offaly): I did not say that. I said that it would ban the killing of hares. The Deputy was not listening.

Mr. Shatter

It allows live hare coursing to continue and gives it a type of——

Mr. Gallagher

(Laoighis-Offaly): If the Deputy had been here, he would have heard what I said.

Mr. Shatter

——governmental imprimatur, but it provides for muzzling of the greyhounds.

As Members of this House know from my contribution to Deputy Gregory's Bill and from comments made by me over the years, I favour banning live hare coursing. I think it is a cruel sport, in fact it is misdescribed as a sport. I do not understand why in the interests of developing coursing, to which I have no objection, the Irish Coursing Club has not utilised the experience in Australia where they have drag coursing. This has not simply been successful in the context of retaining coursing as a real sport but has subsantially increased the popularity of coursing in Australia.

Because of the emotions in the debates on live hare coursing, the Irish Coursing Club has not been sufficiently open-minded to consider an alternative approach which would be beneficial to many people who regard coursing as a real sport and which would attract people to coursing. Sadly, they have not done that.

The Bill before the House addresses a number of issues I want to mention. The first provisions contained in the Bill deal with Bord na gCon and its make up and Deputy Dukes, the Fine Gael spokesperson on Agriculture, spoke at some length on that at the commencement of this debate. The Minister in his opening address acknowledged the problems within the greyhound industry. As someone who enjoys the occasional attendance at the greyhound track in Shelbourne Park, one can see over the years the way in which the greyhound industry is retracting in the level of attendances and the age profile of the people attending. It is quite clear the industry is in huge difficulties. I understand why this Bill is before us. It is a fire brigade measure to address issues that Deputy Gregory raised, but it is unfortunate that the major problems with Bord na gCon and the running of the greyhound industry are not addressed in this legislation.

Those who are in favour of live hare coursing often refer to the importance of the greyhound industry. I do not accept the importance of the link between the live hare coursing and the greyhound industry. The greyhound industry is a multi-million pound industry with great potential. Greyhound track racing has a real potential in the context of tourism and in the context of its potential domestic market if it is dealt with differently. Bord na gCon has been an abject failure in the manner in which it has run the greyhound industry and it is bringing the industry to its knees. I do not welcome that.

I may dislike live hare coursing but it does not mean I want to see an end to the greyhound industry. That should be a developing industry in an era when people have more leisure time, some of it forced on them by unemployment, and in an era when tourists coming to a country are looking for something unique or different in events they attend. The greyhound industry has never been tailored to appeal to tourists coming to Ireland. It is fighting a rearguard action to try to retain those who have had an interest in the sport over the years and it is making little or no impact on the younger generation. Why is that? Part of the reason is the lack of a business approach on the part of Bord na gCon and its failure in a number of areas. I also believe that the association of live hare coursing with the greyhound industry has done the latter huge damage. The overwhelming majority of people under forty have a dislike for live hare coursing and many want to see it permanently banned. For too long the greyhound industry generally, greyhound tracks, those involved in racing greyhounds not at coursing meetings but at regular meetings in venues such as Shelbourne Park, has got a bad name because of its association with coursing.

In so far as the provisions of this Bill seek to remove the special position of members of the Irish Coursing Club from Bord na gCon, they are welcome but, as Deputy Dukes said, there is no clear indication in the Bill as to who this or any future Minister many appoint to Bord na gCon. What criteria will apply? The Minister talks about there not having to be a vocational element for appointees to Bord na gCon. It would seem to me there should be a vocational element, that it should not be perhaps in the context of the Irish Coursing Club, but the people appointed to Bord na gCon should be hard-headed business people who have a vision of how to develop the greyhound racing industry. What should be irrelevant to the appointments to Bord na gCon are the political affiliations of those appointed. Bord na gCon would want to sort out its operation because there is internecine warfare going on between the chief executive and the board. In fact what is happening is a dêbacle. This Bill is an indication of the failure of a political will to come to terms with that. However, it provides at least a vehicle to try to address some of the issues.

What concerned me about the Minister's remarks is that he seemed to say he will remove the provision whereby three members appointed to Bord na gCon need be members of the Irish Coursing Club — on the basis that that was not essential — and when he comes to making the appointments he may appoint more than three members. That is the wrong approach to adopt.

This Bill should set out some basic criteria or involvement in the business world other than membership of the Irish Coursing Club as being necessary for membership of the new board. That would result in there being some merit in someone being appointed to Bord na gCon, some procedure whereby it will not be just a ministerial prerogative. There should be a procedure laid down so that when the appointments arise, every Fianna Fáil Deputy is not lobbying for some member of their local cumann to be appointed a member or that some member of the Labour Party is not lobbying for a member of their party to be appointed. God knows, we know how good this Government, in particular the Labour Party element, has been in not simply getting Labour Party members into positions, but in getting in their friends and relatives. Therefore, the likely criteria that will be applied the next time will be whether the applicant is a card-carrying member of the Fianna Fáil or Labour parties. That is not the way that should be dealt with.

In relation to the provisions on muzzling, I should like to see hare coursing banned. It is clear that that will not happen bearing in mind the views expressed by Members. I am something of a pragmatist in that I take the view that if you cannot kick a door open all the way, you kick it halfway open. On the basis that there is no possibility during the lifetime of this Dáil of having hare coursing banned, at least muzzling dogs will reduce the number of kills but it is not sufficient to reduce, they should be eliminated.

The Minister's approach to this Bill gives rise to great concern. For example, section 3 (1A) (a) states:

The Minister may make regulations providing for—

(i) the muzzling of greyhounds...

If this Minister and Government are unwilling to ban live hare coursing that provision should say: "The Minister shall make regulations providing for the muzzling of greyhounds" and there should be a time scale within which such regulations shall be made. It is not good enough for the Minister to tell the House everybody is co-operating and it may not be necessary to make the regulations.

In this coursing season there has been a substantial reduction in the number of hares killed at meetings. The Minister gave statistics of four hares having been killed at meeting where dogs had been muzzled and eight having to be put down. It is sad to say that we regard that as acceptable because, as Deputy Gregory said, there is an inherent cruelty involved in coursing even if the animal escapes unhurt. Whether it is necessary for any animal in a so-called sport, to be deliberately put in fear is a question I would raise. I accept that wild animals are constantly in fear for all sorts of reasons and that when people go hunting animals are killed. I do not have extreme views about those things.

There is something unpleasant about crowds of people gathering to watch dogs set on live animals. While muzzling has reduced the level of the kill it is quite clear from this Bill there is no certainty that muzzling will even be required by law. It would also seem, in the context of the results so far, that 50 per cent of meetings using muzzles is not sufficient. I predict that if that remains the positions, we will have a repeat of what happened last time in Clounanna during the course of this season. That would be unacceptable and would cause grave embarrassment to members of the Government. As a matter of establishing that the experiment taking place in recent months has been successful, it should now be extended to all coursing meetings; I do not think any should be excluded.

This Bill is imperfect for another reason. It is well explained in the papers published this morning that one must address not only the issue of the behaviour on the coursing track but the issue of the behaviour of those training dogs for either live coursing or for the greyhound track. An article in today's Irish Independent under the heading “Dog ‘savaged tied rabbit” states:

A rabbit was savagely blooded by a greyhound on the land of top Irish greyhound trainer Matt O'Donnell, Cashel District Court was told yesterday.

The rabbit had its hind legs tied with bailer twine when killed by the dog, according to a team of wildlife rangers whose raid on the County Tipperary greyhound training centre resulted in O'Donnell, of Mounttaylor, Killenaule, being charged with permitting unnecessary suffering to the rabbit a year ago.

One of the wildlife rangers was also assaulted during the course of a visit to this farm. The perpetrators of this action were then charged with ill-treating the animal and, following legal argument over the delay in serving the summons, the case was adjourned to the High Court. Obviously there was an attempt made here to apply the law. I do not know what will happen in this High Court application. I will not say anything about it because I would expect it is sub judice but that was just an incident that was uncovered. How many other incidents of this nature that happened throughout the country are not reported or are not known about? They are not addressed in the Bill

The problem is that, even if we provide in law for muzzling for coursing meetings, there is a huge difficulty in supervising what happens behind the scenes in training dogs prior to coursing meetings.

I would have liked to have seen Deputy Gregory's Bill being successful. In the absence of that I, and I think many ordinary people, would acknowledge that muzzling at least provides additional protections to those that obtained heretofore. I say to the Minister also that we will be watching very closely what happens. The Minister should not be tardy about bringing forward regulations and a provision on Committee Stage to change the word "may" to the word "shall". We should be assured that those regulations will be brought into force before the end of this coursing season.

All the Minister could tell us in the course of his remarks yesterday, was the following:

These are enabling provisions which will give the Minister power to introduce the required measures without delay if the need arises. Deputies will also observe that these powers are being given added teeth by the level of the penalties being prescribed.

That is an apt phrase, "added teeth". I suppose what we want to do is to take the teeth out of coursing. There will be no "added teeth" if the regulations are not made. Even if they are made, since we are making it a "may" rather than a "shall" provision, who is to say that some Minister in some Government in the future will not rescind regulations made and create a situation where we will return to what was the position until this year when the experiment to provide for muzzling was inaugurated? It is a pity that the Government, just as it took it on itself to persuade the coursing clubs to provide for muzzling, did not encourage them into drag coursing. So far as the coursing clubs are concerned, my colleagues, Deputy McGahon, Deputy Flaherty and myself, as well as Deputy Gregory, are some kind of bêtes noires. We are supposed to be urban dwellers who do not have a feel for the countryside, who have an emotional view of animals not based on the realities of life and who are out to get people who have greyhounds and who engage in coursing. Nothing could be further from the truth. That is not what we want to do. We have a basic humanitarian view of life, which is that life in the real world, not just for animals but for humans as well, can be an extremely cruel experience. One does not have to add unnecessarily to the cruelty. That says something about what we are when we do, to use the old turn of phrase used for advertising butter.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would remind Deputy Shatter that he has two minutes remaining.

Mr. Shatter

I would hope the Minister would take it on himself, just as he took it on himself to encourage the coursing clubs to provide for muzzling — something which to them was anathema two years ago — to encourage them to look at an experiment in the area of drag coursing. I see no reason why they should not do that. Many of them have taken it upon themselves to change their practices and are doing so in good faith. Unlike some Deputies, I do not attribute motives to people which are not fair. Perhaps they should now try drag coursing as an experiment, have a number of regular meetings run on that basis and see what sort of crowds they attract. They may find that they attract many young people who currently have no interest in live coursing.

Finally, I should like to refer briefly to section 4 of the legislation. There has been a huge public demand to ban hare coursing or, at the very least, to get the coursing clubs to tidy up their act. There is a need in the interests of the economy of this country to sort out the greyhound industry generally and have a body such as Bord na gCon, who can develop that industry in a dynamic way. I have not heard a demand from anybody to provide for coursing on Christmas Day or Good Friday. It is extraordinary, in a Bill that is so short on detail and which fails to address 95 per cent of the problems that need to be addressed in the greyhound industry, that we have a section which not only provides for greyhound racing on Sundays — once we have horse racing why not greyhound racing? — but makes special provision for Good Friday and Christmas Day. Perhaps the Minister can tell me where the public demand for that came and also how many families he expects will be rushing off to the greyhound racing track to celebrate Christmas or Good Friday? That is an aspect of the Bill the Minister should again address.

Miss M. Wallace

At the outset I should like to express my support for the Bill. While most of the debate is centred around section 36 of the Greyhound Industry Act, 1958, I would like to concentrate most of my comments on the overall greyhound industry and its importance to the country. The proposal to muzzle greyhounds, along with the veterinary supervision of hares before and during coursing meetings, is exceedingly important. I am also conscious of the reason the Bill is before us at this time, ahead of the more comprehensive legislation on this whole industry.

In the controversy concerning coursing there has been a lack of detailed discussion about the importance of the greyhound industry as a whole and also the importance of the various improvements necessary to develop the industry. I am one of the people in this House who comes from a family who has been very much involved in the greyhound industry down through the years in the breeding, rearing and training of greyhounds for the greyhound track. While there has been much debate about coursing meetings, I have never been to a coursing meeting. However, I support what needs to be done at this time in relation to muzzling. My knowledge of this industry centres around the greyhound tracks and the improvements which have taken place there since we attended them as young children. Of course more improvements are required.

I would be concerned as I am sure the Minister is, at the reduction in attendance at greyhound tracks all over the country and also that Bord na gCon's main revenue sources — the on-course betting levy and the tote receipts — have been in decline. These are worrying trends in this industry. While Deputy Shatter talks about the urban side, the greyhound industry is an exceedingly important additional income in many family homes.

Last night the Minister referred to the 10,000 people who are dependent for part or sometimes for their sole income from the industry to supplement their livelihoods on small farms and so on. Mostly it is the farming community who are involved in the greyhound industry. This industry is a very important aspect of rural life and it needs attention at this time. I am glad the Minister has promised more comprehensive legislation and that the heads of that Bill are being prepared.

The greyhound industry, which is totally underexploited, has performed well. I acknowledge that there have been some improvements in the recent years and some notable improvements in some of the tracks. There is also the new dope detection programme, the trap draw computerisation and the introduction of the computerised tote system. I remember going to Shelbourne Park in the past. You went in under the stand to a very draughty area and stood on concrete. You would need to be dressed for the North Pole. Yet we all went there, summer and winter. Because of all the improvements, including the closed-in area and the carpeted area, it is now a very comfortable place for a family night out.

Deputy Shatter was concerned as to whether families would actually go to a night at the dogs on a Sunday night, Christmas night or whatever. It must be stressed it is a family night out, because one can go at 7 p.m. for the first race at 8 p.m. and be home by 11 p.m. Especially for rural families, this is the place to take their children for a night out in an acceptable atmosphere. Last night the Minister said the track is the shop window of the industry. While some improvements have taken place, it is important that they are continued. The structural improvements are very important but I would be concerned that on their own they might not lead directly to higher attendances at greyhound tracks. There is a need to promote the greyhound industry, both as a tourist attraction and as a leisure sport and also to broaden the sport's appeal.

Previous speakers have questioned the sporting and leisure aspect of the greyhound industry but in my mind there is no doubt about the great enjoyment people get from this sport. Not only is there great enjoyment in racing the dogs, but in the breeding, rearing and training of greyhounds. It is a source of great joy in many homes, including my own, to see a dog that you have trained winning on the track.

It is also a tourist attraction. Tourism and leisure activities are major growth industries. By the year 2000 it is estimated that they will be the single largest sector in the OECD countries. Tourism is an ideal mechanism for developing underdeveloped areas and rural regions. We constantly hear of the need for a more comprehensive approach to address the seasonality of tourism where everything shuts down come September. Because of the seasonal nature of the industry, employment in the sector is confined to the summer months.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I should have indicated at the start that I wished to share my time with Deputy O'Donoghue.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sure that will be satisfactory. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Miss M. Wallace

It would be welcome if Bord Fáilte were to include Bord na gCon's programme of greyhound meetings in its promotions. I suggest we concentrate on the many important activities in the winter months that attract tourists. Tourists would like a night out at the greyhound track. Domestic promotion of the sport as a leisure activity would promote greater attendance. It would increase revenue not only at the gate but to the tote and encourage increased sponsorship.

All these factors will contribute towards higher prizes and this may attract new people into rearing and training dogs. It is inter-related. As one very wise person said to me, "It does not matter what business or industry you are in, you only make money where there are people". The important thing is to attract people into the industry and make the sport an attractive leisure activity and tourist amenity.

I was glad the Minister established a task force to carry out a comprehensive review of the industry. This Bill is being introduced as a result of the findings of the task force. I welcome this decision to amend section 3 of the 1958 Act as I firmly believe that Sunday greyhound racing is important. The Sunday ban does not apply to many other activities that compete with the greyhound industry. It is important, therefore, that this industry gets equal treatment. Greyhound racing is open to families and is an appropriate way for families to spend their free time. The decision is in keeping with measures to attract people to attend greyhound meetings.

The greyhound industry can be compared to the horse industry. It is important to our economy as it generates substantial revenues. In Counties Meath and Kildare, in particular, we are very conscious of the importance of the horse industry. I believe the greyhound industry should be developed in the same way. We should be encouraging more "doggy people" to produce, rear and train thoroughbred greyhounds for export to the UK and mainland Europe. The importance of the export side of the business needs to be underlined. It needs to be stressed also that this is a genuine alternative enterprise in rural Ireland. This must be underlined for the people who are not as familiar with the industry as those who come from areas where it is based.

Greyhound breeding, training and management courses, organised by Bord na gCon with the assistance of FÁS, have been held in Limerick. I hope that successful participants will be encouraged to use their knowledge and experience to exploit the potential of this industry. On the question of the proposed changes in Bord na gCon, the previous speaker was concerned on the one hand that Bord na gCon should get its act together but he was worried about who would get the actual jobs. You cannot have your cake and eat it and I hope the changes provided for in section 9 of the Bill will contribute to achieving the two goals that I am concerned about, namely, the promotion of the greyhound industry as a tourist and leisure amenity and, second, the encouragement of new people in the sector.

Finally, I will comment on coursing meetings. We all desire to see the elimination of the kill at coursing meetings. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Shea, stated that in over 400 coursing meetings up to the past fortnight only two hares were killed and two others were put down due to injuries. From these figures it certainly appears that muzzling and stricter veterinary controls have been a great help. The promise that this Bill is just a foretaste of more comprehensive legislation to overhaul the 1958 Greyhound Industry Act is positive. Yesterday the Minister said that the heads of the Bill were being drafted. It is important for the industry to bring that legislation to the House as quickly as possible.

Mr. O'Donoghue

I thank my colleague, Deputy Mary Wallace, for agreeing to share her time. I am certainly not referring to Deputy Wallace's contribution when I refer to what I can only describe as a certain amount of "Dublin 4-itis" which is contagious. I am saying nothing against the people of Dublin 4 but I am using this euphemism to describe what I regard as the complete demonisation of those involved in hare coursing. The demonisation is almost complete. There appears to be an attitude running through the debate that those involved in the sport are wild, bloodthirsty men who cannot be depended on to do anything other than to chase little animals up a field and kill them for their pleasure.

I cannot say for a moment that hare coursing is my favourite sport, because it is not, but I know the people involved. I know them as well as I know you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and even better. I know you could not meet more decent men on a day's walk. That is the truth. To describe them in the manner in which they have been described by certain sectors, including the media, in the course of this long running saga as men who have no regard for wildlife would be the greatest mistake of all. The truth is that few, if any, people in this country are as close to nature or wildlife as those who are brought up with it and learn to respect it because of their closeness to it. It is their birthright. It is important that this is put on the record. We are speaking about sportsmen. I do not agree with the killing of little hares running up a field and there is not a sportsman involved in hare coursing who was ever interested in the killing of hares. The opposite is actually the case. The genuine people involved in hare coursing are extremely disappointed when they see a hare killed. The muzzling of greyhounds is in all probability a good thing provided the sport can survive and prosper as it is of crucial importance to our economy. We are talking here not of a small industry but about an industry which contributes considerably to our economy. Sportsmen and those interested in hunting fear that the next Bill will prohibit hunting in the wild. The message should go out from the Government that while it is willing to strike a fair balance fairness must come from every side. I heard a lady on the radio some months ago state categorically that angling should be banned, that it was very cruel to the fish. So far as I am aware saints fished. St. Peter was a fisherman. Hunting is in the order of nature, which laws passed here or anywhere else will not change. While striking a fair balance here is important, it is also important to send out the message that laws passed in any Parliament of the world will not change the law of nature.

Mr. Durkan

As Members will recall I am not a member of the Dublin 4 set. I appreciate my colleague's expertise in that area. No doubt he has studied the species at close quarters and has come to a clinical conclusion and I have no doubt that there is some truth in what he has said.

I was born and lived most of my life in a rural area. I have been a hunter and a fisherman and I still fish and see nothing wrong with it. I chased hares with greyhounds and all sorts of dogs. As time passes one's attitude changes and I have changed in that I do not regard that as a sport any more, although I have no difficulty with fishing. In the middle ages coursing was the sport of kings and it was widely supported, as were boar hunting, bull baiting and other sports. Whaling and other marine activities were also pursued. Many of these activities have been stopped because of changes in public opinion. As civilisation evolves, what was acceptable 200 or 300 years ago may no longer be acceptable. I fully appreciate that.

I do not have any antipathy towards the greyhound industry. Although I do not attend meetings I know many people who do and I have no problem with it. I recognise the benefit it brings to the economy, but I fail to understand why it is necessary to have live hare coursing.

Hunting in the natural habitat, from which this sport evolved, is vastly different from live hare coursing today. When one hunts an animal or bird in its natural habitat, it has a greater than 50/50 chance of escaping. It is when we remove animals from their natural habitat and put them on territory where their senses are disoriented and they are no longer in control that the problem arises. It is at that stage that the distinct advantage is with the hunter and it is there that fair play comes into focus. Those who shoot and fish love to see fair play so that the fish or the animal has as good a chance to get away as it has of being caught. In enclosed live hare coursing the animal does not have a fair chance. One should ask oneself whether or not this is sport. When fair play ceases, it can hardly be described as such.

People are for and against hare coursing and that is their entitlement. After my last remarks in the House on this issue I had one or two letters from irate people who indicated that their first preference votes would not necessarily be coming my way in the future. That is democracy but it should not inhibit me from saying anything in this House. Such considerations should not inhibit anyone and nobody should be intimidated into thinking along the lines of a majority or a minority. People should make up their own minds and not be hassled into a line of thought that is convenient on a particular occasion. I hope Members of the House will recognise that in the future.

I agree that this Bill is an improvement, although it is not as good as Deputy Gregory's Bill. It is still possible for hares to be killed or to be injured so seriously that they have to be put down. People might say that they are more familiar with the intricacies of the sport than I, but I would claim to know at least as much about it as anybody else, having grown up in that environment. There is not a shadow of doubt that animals will be killed notwithstanding the muzzling, although muzzling is a distinct improvement on the practice heretofore.

On the one hand I congratulate the Minister for introducing this measure, but on the other hand it may prove to be insufficient. For that reason, I hope the Minister will reconsider the matter.

Deputy O'Donoghue referred to the lobbies campaigning for the abolition of various sports. I have no difficulty with natural sports pursued in a natural habitat. At present in the UK problems have arisen in regard to blood sports, such as fox hunting and so on. I do not regard stag hunting as a sport, even if it takes place in a natural habitat, although that is no longer the case. During the Middle Ages the stag would have known every inch of the terrain because he would have roamed it on a daily basis. At that time the stag would have been much more in command of the situation than is the case at present. They are now taken out of a reservation and put into a field where they are pursued. I have not seen that sport take place since I was a teenager, but even then I was not impressed by it as it involves the pursuit of a semi-domestic animal. In the Middle Ages stag hunting was regarded as a royal sport, but very few people support it nowadays.

While there are strongly held views for and against hare coursing on both sides of this House, I have some knowledge of both sides of the argument. Nevertheless, times and attitudes have changed, civilisation has evolved and trends are changing. This means that rules and regulations must also change. If that means abolishing something which was acceptable 300 or 400 years ago, we should do so. That is par for the course and a natural progression of civilisation.

I welcome the positive element of the Bill relating to muzzling. Deputy Shatter referred to section 23 of the 1958 Act, which is being amended by this legislation, under which Christmas Day and Good Friday are excluded. While there are obvious reasons for excluding those days, I fail to understand it.

We should steer away from fanaticism in the context of this legislation. There is an element of fanaticism in the debate taking place in the UK at present in relation to hunting generally in that one side will not yield to the other under any circumstances. That leads to divisive argument, and society does not benefit from such argument. I hope this debate will bring about an evolution of the arguments put forward previously and that Members will recognise each other's viewpoints with the result that we might view the subject matter in a less charged atmosphere in the future. If one engages in a debate on this subject one is likely to be cast aside as being totally irrational, irresponsible, heartless, cruel and so on by one side or the other. When people hold entrenched positions it does not lead to a constructive debate.

At the outset I stated I was not a member of any grouping, such as Dublin 4, or any other socially desirable element and that as I come from a rural background I have knowledge of both sides of the argument. I do not believe the enactment of this legislation will affect other sports. A certain amount of revulsion will be expressed against any type of sport which is seen to be cruel, but the less bloody sports are not likely to be severely affected by this legislation. Deputy O'Donoghue stated that fishing will be the next sport to be abolished. St. Peter and Fionn MacCumhail fished and I am sure many Members of this House have enjoyed that activity and will continue to do so. Nevertheless, we cannot say that activities will not be reviewed in the future. Circumstances and attitudes change and all activities must be considered as the need arises. One cannot argue that we should not proceed with this legislation because it might encourage the introduction of legislation abolishing other sports in the future. If that were the case legislation would have frozen in time several hundred years ago and society would not have moved forward.

I welcome the provision relating to muzzling but I would have welcomed the introduction of further restrictions in regard to this sport. It might be ironic that a person with a rural background should adopt such an attitude, but that is my view. I hope the Minister will monitor the operation of the legislation when it is enacted with a view to ascertaining whether further improvements are required which might, if necessary, eliminate any unsavoury or undesirable activities of a cruel nature.

Mr. M. Ahern

I wish to share my time with Deputy Kemmy.

Acting Chairman (Mr. McGrath)

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. M. Ahern

I welcome this important legislation. For far too long the greyhound industry has not been given the attention it merits. We are in the process of devising a national plan for the economy, the twin aims of which are job preservation and job creation. In so far as this Bill addresses those objectives in the greyhound industry it is especially welcome. In the context of the overall economy this industry is small but this does not detract from its importance to those involved or from its potential which is considerable.

Like the horse, the Irish greyhound is recognised worldwide as an animal of spirit and excellence. The bloodstock industry, and the greyhound sector in particular, forms an integral part of the fabric of rural Ireland. For rural and urban families who are actively engaged in the breeding and training of dogs and horses and for the followers of those sports it is a deeply rooted cultural pursuit. It is not merely a question of business or pleasure, it is part of their heritage.

Section 3 of the Bill will attract most public attention. Under the legislation the Minister will have the power to make regulations to provide for the muzzling of greyhounds at coursing meetings and the veterinary inspection of all the animals involved. A penalty of £1,000 is provided for and I hope it will be rigorously applied. I understand that at those meetings where greyhounds were muzzled there was a dramatic reduction in the number of hares killed and that the meetings were run to the satisfaction of all those present. I hope this will allay the concerns of those who argued that coursing meetings could not proceed if greyhounds were muzzled. It can now be seen that it has proved to be a success.

Coursing with muzzled greyhounds is more humane than shooting, fishing or fox hunting. Therefore those who have been complaining about coursing should remain quiet in the future. I support the humane treatment of all animals, including hares. This Bill will go a long way towards ensuring this. People who do not live in a rural community have romantic notions about animal life in the wild and are not aware of what happens in the countryside. I was reared on a farm but having listened to some contributions I think I must have come down from Mars.

Coursing forms an important and integral part of the greyhound industry. It has helped to develop the industry and enhance the ability of greyhounds on the track. It should be noted that American and Australian breeders are importing Irish greyhounds with coursing bloodlines to rejuvenate the natural chasing instincts of their existing bloodlines. These breeders believe that their hounds' chasing instincts have suffered since coursing was outlawed in those countries. It should be noted also that coursing bloodlines were present in the pedigree of 77 per cent of winners of major track events in England and Ireland during the past ten years. This is an excellent record.

Along with the muzzling of greyhounds, provision is made for veterinary inspection. I especially welcome this provision.

I sincerely hope that the implementation of these regulations will greatly improve the image of coursing. The Irish Coursing Club has done much to regulate the industry, but this has not proved sufficient. I attach no blame to those who have been involved in the management of the board. We must acknowledge, as politicians, that if the industry is to develop the necessary action must be taken.

In the recent past the problems of Bord na gCon have been compounded by the fact that it is operating in an internationally depressed environment. In 1991, the last year for which the board published an annual report, the key figures were down. The level of betting with bookmakers and the tote was down to £33.6 million compared with a figure of £35.6 million in 1990. Bets placed with bookmakers declined to a figure of £26.8 million, a decrease of 6.05 per cent while the figure for the tote declined to £6.75 million, a decrease of 4.05 per cent.

By comparison, greyhound tracks fared much better than horse racing tracks where the level of bookmaker betting declined in 1991 by 18 per cent over the figure for 1990. Internationally, greyhound tracks fared much worse than tracks in Ireland. For instance, tracks in the United States reported a decline of 12 per cent in turnover while attendances at tracks in the United Kingdom dropped by 9.6 per cent and tote turnover by 10.9 per cent. In Ireland the level of betting was down in 1991 while attendances fell by 2.89 per cent over the figure for the previous year.

This took place against a background of increased prize money and sponsorship. Prize money increased by 4.3 per cent giving a total purse of £2,098,423, an all time record. Sponsorship, which increased by 3.5 per cent in 1991, represented 27.9 per cent of the total payout.

The underlying problem is that there is a lack of funding. Funding is vital if this sector is to reach its full potential. Historically, the industry was funded by way of a share of the tax take from on-course betting but this proved inadequate. In 1990, the historic decision was made that for the first time the industry would also receive a share of the tax take from off-course betting. This amounts to approximately £300 million during the year. In 1990, the greyhound racing industry received £500,000 while the horse racing industry received £3 million. In 1991, the figure for greyhound racing was increased to £750,000. This is still not adequate. Each year the Department of Finance takes in about £30 million from betting on horses and dogs. We need to recognise that there is a need to invest and develop this business.

Bord na gCon is responsible for 18 centres and the managements of many of these dog tracks are crying out for development which is necessary if the industry is to survive and become more profitable. In the long term we must dispel the penny wise attitude as it neither makes financial nor economic sense. We should bear in mind that Ireland is the leading exporter of greyhounds and that this business is worth £40 million a year and has enormous potential. This must be tapped now.

There is one other noteworthy aspect of the greyhound industry — it is drug free. Bord na gCon has its own drug testing centre. As we are primarily involved in the breeding of greyhounds the board recognises that every greyhound in every major race is a potential breeding animal. Accordingly, every runner in every major race is tested. In addition, there is random testing at less important race meetings. The results are to the credit of all involved in the industry.

I call on Dáil Éireann to see what the future holds for the greyhound industry in an Irish and European context. There is an urgent need to examine the question of funding for Bord na gCon. By under-supporting the industry we are, in effect depleting a vital national interest and not allowing it to reach its full potential. The effects of this are felt in rural Ireland.

At European level both our Government and the European Union have formally agreed that the Irish greyhound industry be accepted as an alternative form of enterprise. Like any rural TD I know at first hand the appalling problem of rural depopulation. An entire range of agri-business is needed to sustain populations that will otherwise soon disappear. Greyhound breeding and racing have the potential to be one such project. We have subsidies for projects that there is no demand for, yet the greyhound industry, a profitable and sustainable business, remains unaided. Consideration should be given to making a grant available to greyhound breeders to help sustain and improve that business.

The Minister should consider giving representation on the new board to members of the executive committee of greyhound owners. There is representation on Bord na gCapaill for horse owners. I commend the Minister for bringing forward this legislation which was badly needed. This is only one aspect of a more far reaching plan for the greyhound industry.

Mr. Kemmy

The Minister is a man of his word. During the debate on Deputy Gregory's Private Members' Bill he said he would bring legislation before the House by the end of the year and he has done so. In so far as this Bill strengthens the Minister's hand and controls the industry, I welcome it. I have strong views on this matter which are well known within and outside the House, but I understand how difficult it is to tackle the problem; it is not a simple black and white issue.

The coursing industry has a bad image. Greyhound racing has long been the Cinderella of the racing industry. I understand the Minister went to look at greyhound racing in other countries, including America. That was a good thing because, for too long, greyhound racing in Ireland has had a seedy down-at-heel image and we can learn from other countries, America included. We can also learn from Britain where there have been attempts to clean up greyhound racing and make it a more family-orientated sport. In Ireland greyhound racing has been usually a male-dominated sport with a not very good image. That is the background against which this legislation must be considered.

I listened carefully to the debate. Many people spoke in favour of the Bill. I was not very impressed by the contributions as many of them contained too much propaganda. They were prepared in some sort of script factory by pro-coursing people. We all have an obligation to filter and sift such scripts; they should not be read parrot-like. Publice representatives have an obligation to use their intelligence and sense of justice and fair play and put their own stamp on them. That did not happen. There was parrot-like repetition of phrases which cut no ice with me. The Minister attempted to widen the debate as did Deputy Durkan. I agree with much of what Deputy Durkan said. This is not a simple matter; it is not one that can be dealt with by way of simple majority.

Muzzling is at the experimental stage and the jury is still out on that issue. I made my reservations about that known during the previous debate and I will not repeat them. However, I am willing to learn and to judge accordingly.

The poor image of coursing was highlighted this year at Clounanna, just a few miles outside Limerick city from where I come, when 51 hares were slaughtered in three days. I referred to that in the previous debate and I will say no more about it. Much work needs to be done. In the past people got away with murder, if that is not too bad a pun to use in this context. There was no control; people were not amenable to taking responsibility and were their own worst enemies in that respect. They thought they could get away with uncontrolled coursing, with malpractice and abuses. It has been said that man's inhumanity to man is terrible to see. Man's inhumanity to man does not end with man alone. Cruelty is often extended by man to animals and there are plenty of examples.

Deputy Michael Ahern, and others, said much about the value of the industry to Ireland. I am not one to turn my face against jobs and industrial development; we need both. However, in the past human slavery was justified on the same grounds. People could be transported from one country to another and sold like baggage. That also was a valuable industry but one can never justify anything on the basis that it makes money and creates jobs. Slavery did both but it was not necessarily good; it was a horrible business which went on for centuries. It was justified by church and state and people looked the other way. We live in a changing world. Our perception of what is cruel changes. It is important to see coursing in that context. The Gregory Bill was a pyrrhic victory for the Government side, and I was on that side. However, it was a useful debate and made many people outside the House realise that coursing cannot continue as in the past, that the time has come to change it. Coursing people know that.

I was disappointed with the level of speeches in this debate. They were a repetition of old folksy arguments and clichés that have no relevance to this debate. The Minister must continue to study the subject and monitor it closely. He has the power to put in veterinary inspectors to monitor coursing events along with other powers. I welcome that but the Minister must continue to work in this area and keep it under constant review. He might come back to the House, perhaps next year, to give us a progress report because we do not have time to go around to coursing meetings and monitor them. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Unless the Bill is seen to improve the greyhound industry it will not be considered a success.

It is important to admit that we have been wrong in the past and not try to justify past errors. That is something we all do as politicians, particularly when we are in Government; we never admit that we were wrong. It is good to admit that we may be wrong. We had different attitudes one time about Northern Ireland, but our perceptions change. Similarly, in regard to coursing, there is no harm in admitting that we were wrong about that; we grew up in a different time with our perceptions blunted, not understanding fully what we were doing and that coursing was a cruel so-called sport.

We need further change in this area and I hope the Minister will be big enough to come back to the House with further legislation on this matter. The passing of this Bill does not mean that the matter is resolved. We are living in a changing world of industry, of greyhound racing and of coursing. It is important that all legislation should reflect the change in human attitudes to coursing and greyhound racing.

Ms McManus

I would like to share my time with Deputy Sargent. I welcome the fact that some measures have been taken to improve and develop the greyhound industry. It is a significant source of employment in rural Ireland and provides an important supplement to the earnings of 6,000 small farmers. However, I regret that the Minister did not take the opportunity to revitalise the industry and give it a new beginning.

I agree with the Minister's point that the estimated income of £16 million generated by the industry is a significant contribution to the earnings of small holders. Deputy Dukes was out of line in dismissing that point and disregarding the suggestion that greyhound breeding could be a genuine alternative farm enterprise, especially in these days of CAP reform and GATT, about which the Deputy appears to be annoyed. It is particularly appropriate for small farmers to consider alternative farm businesses. The reality is that farming is changing. People living in rural areas need to consider alternatives and this industry may be an alternative that would have limited application. But for that to be the case it is essential that it is developed to its full potential. At present the industry is in the doldrums. Punters are staying away and they must be attracted back to the racing track if profits are to be made. Facilities must be upgraded.

The image of the industry must be improved. That issue has not been tackled in the Bill. There is a half-hearted approach in relation to the controversy of live hare coursing, but it does not address that problem. The controversy will not go away. The legislation presented an opportunity to the Minister to face up to the controversy and to the large numbers of people who are concerned and angry about the status of live hare coursing and to address the problem. The Bill does not address the problem and that is an opportunity lost. It is vital that the image of the greyhound industry be improved and this will not happen until live hare coursing is banned.

The provisions in the Bill will not satisfy anyone. During the years the ICC has opposed the idea of muzzling and its present response in that regard is less than enthusiastic. People who oppose live hare coursing do not regard muzzling as the answer. The Minister will end up falling between two stools and the people who will suffer are those who are trying to build up the greyhound industry in good faith; and, of course, the hares will suffer also. On reading the documentation that presents the case for and against muzzling, there appears to be sufficient evidence to support the case that muzzling creates appalling cruelty. The trials carried out to date support that evidence. Hares are still dying and being injured. As long as that position continues the controversy in that regard will continue. The Minister is postponing the day he will have to make a decision in this regard.

The confrontational element associated with coursing meetings is damaging the greyhound industry. It is unacceptable that a public representative would be excluded from attending coursing meetings regardless of his or her view on coursing. In a democracy a person is entitled to freedom of movement. It is strange that when I should be defending the right of the hare to survival, I am defending the right of public representatives and Deputies to go about their business. Deputies are being prevented from going about their business at coursing meetings because of the practice at those meetings and because of the secrecy and denial of what is happening at those meetings. It is legitimate for people to monitor what takes place at those meetings and to see the evidence. Any serious TD making a statement on any political issue wants to see evidence in regard to that issue. It is unacceptable that they should be prevented from carrying out such monitoring, particularly when the coursing club receives funding from the State.

Mr. B. Fitzgerald

On a point of order, that is incorrect. Bord na gCon receives funding from the State.

Ms McManus

Bord na gCon receives public money.

Mr. Sargent

It is used for prizes.

Ms McManus

Yes. The funding is somewhat removed from the clubs, but my point-it still valid.

Mr. Ferris

That is not coursing.

Ms McManus

Would the Deputies like to leave the Chamber? I am just trying to make a point here. Public money is availed of in relation to coursing activities. Taking that point into account and also the broader point in regard to public access and rights, people should not be prevented from seeing what is happening at meetings.

Apart from the banning of live hare coursing a practical way to deal with this matter and to give the greyhound industry a boost and a new image is for members of the ICC to be represented on Bord na gCon. The Irish Council Against Blood Sports should also be represented on Bord na gCon. That would be a progressive move. The point about gender balance was made. The Minister has a responsibility to ensure that there is 40 per cent representation of women on the board. Women will not accept a long finger approach in this regard. The Government has given a commitment on gender equality and it must meet its commitment in regard to the filling of positions.

Regarding muzzling, most people would not place a great deal of trust in the application of regulations. The Minister stated that he will introduce regulations and that is relatively easy to do. The difficult question is: how will those regulations be enforced? The illegal practice of blooding still takes place. Occasionally, such cases are brought to court. However, the fact that there is not a regulatory system in place which is 100 per cent effective in that regard is a matter of concern when dealing with the issue of muzzling.

Whatever about the practice of blooding, muzzling would have to be enforced effectively throughout the country for that practice to be complied with. I do not believe it is worth the effort. The application of regulations on muzzling must be questioned. This does not involve only the imposition of penalties. There should be direct encouragement to replace live hare coursing with the Australian style drag coursing events. People should be encouraged to take that track to develop the industry and make it an attractive supporting event and a family one. It should be developed in a way that will not upset, distress or offend people because of its barbaric nature. We should encourage drag coursing, which is not offensive but is very popular in Australia and has been proven to be successful.

I referred to my opposition to live hare coursing during the debate on Deputy Gregory's Private Members' Bill. I am not disturbed by the cruelty to animals as much as what the enjoyment of that sport says about us as human beings. If we are willing to tolerate such cruelty, that says a great deal about how we tolerate cruelty among people in the larger arena. Many people were shocked by the Jamie Bulger case. They asked how could this happen in a civilised society. Blame has been attached to video nasties, and I do not doubt that they may be an element in that case. We need to consider how cruelty is practised in our society. We must consider the effect on a young child of attending a live hare coursing meeting. I have talked to people who remember very vividly the first time they attended a coursing meeting and they were horrified by what they saw as children. We should not dismiss the impact of such meetings and place responsibility for cruelty on other people. Coursing meetings are part and parcel of what we are, unless we change the position. We had an opportunity in this Bill and, if amendments are accepted, the Minister will have an opportunity to provide for a much improved greyhound industry.

Mr. Sargent

Aontaím leis an meíd atá ráite ag Deputy McManus.

I support the Bill in so far as it develops the greyhound industry as a racing enterprise, and I have no problem with Sunday racing, although it may present a problem for some people who do not favour gambling on Sundays. However, there is an element of deception in the Bill because it portrays the greyhound industry as a front for coursing and makes minimal change in this area. For that reason, the Bill needs to be torn apart, as happens to the hares, and put back together again.

Bord na gCon operates under great difficulty and is not prospering. Unlike Deputy Dukes, I believe there is a link between Bord na gCon and the Irish Coursing Club in terms of rules. One such rule is that which requires a person who races greyhounds, perhaps somebody based in the city, to register with the Irish Coursing Club. That is a distortion of people's interests and is similar to requiring a rugby player to register with a table tennis club or soccer club in order to pursue his activity. The country also suffers as a result of the link between Bord na gCon and the Irish Coursing Club. If we are to portray a good image internationally we should tackle coursing on an objective basis without pandering to an aggressive minority.

The question of muzzling is of concern to many people. Some people put on a brave face and say that at least it is better than banning coursing altogether. Others such as John Martin, a respected correspondent, do not agree with muzzling. The muzzle in coursing can be compared with the silencer in terrorism or the toy gun in bank robberies. The victim still experiences anguish and may be ripped apart in the end.

In coursing, regardless of whether a muzzle is used, hares will be killed and injured. This is not a numbers game and this issue should not be played on the basis of numbers or an acceptable kill. It is a questions of terror. Are we prepared to accept terror, particularly as part of a so-called sport? To date, trials with muzzles have been closely monitored and obviously there are fewer kills in those circumstances. However, I would not rule out an increase in kills in the future when there is less publicity in regard to muzzles.

Coursing involves capture, training, trials and blooding. There is evidence that blooding takes place, in spite of the fact that the Irish Coursing Club argues that it does not happen. In tackling this matter, I would ask the Minister to consult with the Minister for Education and the Minister for Enterprise and Employment in regard to technological development. The Australian example needs to be considered in this regard. When the Australian Prime Minister was here he did not dwell very much on the atrocities of East Timor. He is more humane in his domestic policies which includes putting into practice coursing which does not involve the live hare. That is the only way to take the cruelty out of coursing. Coursing without the live hare would be successful here and I might even be attracted to a coursing meeting. The coursing industry would have nothing to hide in those circumstances and people could be proud of the industry. At present, the vast majority of people are rightly ashamed of coursing, regardless of whether a muzzle is used. The muzzle does not work as it injures dogs and kills hares. I plead with the Minister to take into account the ultimate solution which is to ban the use of live hares in coursing.

Mr. Ferris

I welcome the opportunity to address the House on this important legislation. I have heard some extraordinary contributions such as that from Deputy Sargent which contained many inaccuracies. When people make a contribution in the House they should either wait for a proper response to their accusations——

Mr. Sargent

I am waiting.

Mr. Ferris

——or have available the proper details so that people will not be misrepresented and animals will not be maligned. There are very few people available to give the correct statistics. I was surprised at the comments of Deputy Dukes, a man who is of the land and of the country. He almost insinuated that the Minister knows nothing about the industry, but that is untrue. The Minister is a modest man and is not prepared to stand up in the House to defend his interests, expertise and experience in this industry. Anybody who says that his actions are determined by his childhood interest in the industry knows nothing about the Minister, Deputy O'Shea. Perhaps Deputy Dukes is just being negative in this regard. He seems to believe that nobody but himself has authority or expertise to speak on these matters.

I was surprised that Deputy Dukes, who has an interest in the agriculture industry and farming generally, is unaware of the importance of the coursing industry to part-time farmers and rural people. It is matter of interest to many constituencies. We are interested not only in the industry and the economic development of our constituencies but also in preventing cruelty to animals.

The Minister indicated in his speech that this legislation deals with only part of the industry and that a major Bill is in preparation to deal with the wider problem. This legislation was introduced in response to the criticisms by many people about the killing of hares at coursing meetings. This view was also held by the chairperson of the Labour Party, Deputy Kemmy, who was promised by the Minister of State that he would deal with this issue at the first available opportunity. The Minister did not have to include a provision in the Bill dealing with the muzzling of greyhounds but he has done so to meet the concerns expressed by many people about the killing of hares. Deputies who have an interest in the greyhound industry have endeavoured through their parties to have this industry tidied up. I have been accused of using my position as the Labour Party Whip to bring Deputies into the House to support or oppose legislation for narrow political purposes. I did no such thing. I was acting in a positive way to ensure that the Minister would respond to the legitimate criticisms about the killing of hares at coursing meetings.

The greyhound industry is a very important industry. I make no apology to anybody, regardless of what party they represent, about referring to its importance. Approximately 10,000 people are employed in the greyhound industry, which is a national asset and of vital importance to our economy. Total annual receipts from the sale of greyhounds amount to approximately £40 million while receipts for breeders, etc. exceed £2 million. The greyhound industry and its sister industry, the coursing industry, are national assets which give much needed employment in rural areas.

There is a strong tradition of coursing and other sports in County Tipperary. During previous debates I have refuted suggestions and allegations that coursing is a sleazy or substandard sport. I know the people involved in this sport in County Tipperary and I refute any suggestion that they are in some way second class citizens. I can say with all sincerity that the people involved in coursing in County Tipperary are proud and honourable people. Coursing is an integral part of rural life in County Tipperary and the people involved in the industry abhor the killing of hares at meetings. The greyhound industry is worth £3 million to the local economy of Clonmel, the administrative capital of my constituency and Ireland's largest inland town. The greyhound industry is of major benefit to towns such as Clonmel which have strong ties with this industry. I have the utmost confidence that the Bill will streamline the industry and allow it to grow, develop and create more jobs.

The Bill proposes to introduce Sunday racing. Some people of different political and religious persuasions have commented that very few people will be interested in attending meetings on Sundays, Christmas Day, St. Stephen's Day or other holy days. I would say to them that people living in rural areas, who, unlike those working in the Four Courts and others enjoying extended holidays, work six and seven days a week, like to enjoy themselves in a fair manner, even on holy days. I see nothing wrong with putting this sport on a par with other sports, including the bloodstock industry, or with holding meetings on a Sunday. It should be remembered that people like placing bets on horses and dogs; it is part of their nature. Perhaps Democratic Left thinks people do not have a nature and that we are all clones of the computer industry.

The provision in regard to the muzzling of greyhounds at coursing meetings is a very important step in eliminating much of the cruelty involved in this sport. This measure will lead to the proper control of hare coursing. It is only right to eliminate any unnecessary cruelty in this sport. Nobody wants to see a repeat of the massacre in Clounanna last February when an unacceptable number of hares were killed because the greyhounds were not muzzled. The number of hares killed at coursing meetings since the introduction of muzzling on a voluntary and experimental basis has fallen dramatically. I am sure that the spectacular decrease in the number of hares killed as a result of the muzzling of greyhounds will be welcomed by all of us, including Deputy Sargent and Deputy McManus——

Mr. Sargent

Can one measure terror?

Mr. Ferris

I will do so in a moment. According to statistics which have been published, of the 1,029 hares which have been coursed since muzzling was introduced on a voluntary basis only four have been killed accidentally, not deliberately, and eight have been injured. I have been advised that these injured animals were put down on veterinary advice. During the same period thousands of hares, rabbits, foxes, badgers etc., have been killed by motorists——

Mr. Sargent

Not for sport.

Mr. Ferris

Nobody has suggested that the killing of hares by greyhounds is a sport; it is an accident. Those who are in favour of banning coursing altogether should view the sport——

Mr. Sargent

We are not allowed to view it.

Mr. Ferris

——instead of giving unsubstantiated information to the House. Reports of coursing meetings suggest that muzzling has not interfered with the natural instinct of greyhounds to pursue hares. The link between the natural instinct of greyhounds and greyhound racing is well recognised. The Minister's proposals in regard to the muzzling of greyhounds will not interfere with or affect the future performance of greyhounds. The industry must be congratulated for accepting these proposals. It was consulted about the muzzling of greyhounds and it had no problems with this proposal. It was stated today that the industry had unwillingly accepted this proposal, but this is totally untrue.

The anti-coursing lobby is so opposed to coursing that it does not mind drawing blood from pro-coursing people going about their ordinary business. This anti-blood sports lobby is opposed to coursing but it does not seem to mind drawing blood from humans. This vociferous lobby does not want anybody to hold a view which is different to its view. I hope this lobby will accept that the new measures proposed in the Bill, including the provision dealing with muzzling, will go a long way towards meeting its concerns.

The Bill will give Bord na gCon the ability to increase the number of meetings, subject to rules which will have to be agreed by the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry. Bord na gCon will also be given responsibility for the breeding and registration of greyhounds. The Bill provides for the appointment of new members to the board of Bord na gCon so as to ensure that the greyhound industry will be better represented at board level. The number of board members proposed in section 2 (2) (a) should be increased so as to ensure that the Irish Coursing Club, which enjoys automatic representation on the board at present, is properly represented. Increased membership would also allow other interests, such as women, to be represented on the board. I have no doubt that women will play a major role in developing the industry, because many women have an interest in it. Increased representation on the board would bring it into line with the board of the bloodstock and horse racing industry which is representative of the breeders, trainers and owners in that industry. Six is very restrictive and I would respectfully suggest that the Minister examine this aspect of the Bill to ensure that he will be allowed the opportunity to adhere to the Government's proposals with regard to the gender balance and to ensure also that there is adequate and proper representation for the Irish Coursing Club and others.

I refute any suggestion that someone who has an affiliation to either Fianna Fáil or the Labour Party cannot represent the greyhound industry. It is utter balderdash to say that because the board is not comprised of people from other political persuasions it is in some way deficient. The Minister is perfectly entitled to nominate those whom he considers will make a worthwhile contribution to the board, irrespective of their political affiliations, and I would respect his judgment in that regard. Nobody should be excluded from membership of this board because of political affiliation.

With this new extended board all of those groups will play a vital and imaginative role in developing the industry. The board will have the responsibility of examining the issues of breeding, marketing, racing and the development of the industry as a whole at home and abroad. We must not forget the people who support racing events, the punters. They turn up faithfully, irrespective of the weather, simply for the thrill and excitement of coursing and greyhound racing. We have a responsibility to ensure that the facilities available to those patrons of the industry are the best possible so that the sport can be enjoyed by families of all age groups. In trying to put money back into the industry I hope the Minister will examine the sectors already supporting it. I hope also that the improvements the Minister wishes to see in the industry, including the increase in the numbers attending race and coursing meetings and all the other aspects of the economic development of the industry, will take place. The punters are entitled to first-class accommodation and facilities when they go out to enjoy themselves on whatever day of the week their religious beliefs allow.

This is a good healthy rural sport and we apologise to nobody for the fact that this Minister is trying to eliminate the cruelty which was inherent in the past in uncontrolled courses.

Mr. Sargent

It still is.

Mr. Ferris

I hope the new board will administer, control and become involved in the implementation of the strictest regulations in the future arising from the legislative power that this Bill now gives it. With the help of all of us in this House and the Minister we can make a major contribution to what is a very important industry.

Mr. Flood

I am pleased to have an opportunity to participate in this debate and I wish to compliment the Minister at the outset for bringing forward promised legislation with reference to the coursing of live hares. This follows on from a major debate which took place on the Gregory Bill on which I made a fairly substantial contribution. I will not repeat what I put on the record of this House in June, but I wish to make a number of important points.

The arguments has been made that the economic aspects of the greyhound industry are important. We all support the objective of improving and enhancing employment prospects and the opportunity for rural communities to generate economic activities which will sustain them. Of course, we cannot give it a blanket approval. The fact that there is economic activity deriving from a particular sport does not always mean that the sport is correct.

I again put on the record that I am opposed to the coursing of live hares. I have no great criticism to make of the greyhound industry and I understand and accept its importance in rural communities but I cannot accept that we must continue to use live hares in the sport. Muzzling is a first step and I applaud the Minister for making the commitment a few months ago and for honouring that commitment so quickly. We have now before us a Bill which represents the first step towards dealing with what everybody in this House agreed was an unacceptable level of kills at various meetings around the country. Members wish to see the elimination of wholesale killing of hares. This Bill goes part of the way towards achieving that objective.

I would ask those who support the industry so strongly to continue to examine ways of improving the situation regarding live here coursing and to be prepared, as the Minister was, to go abroad to see how greyhound industries in other countries are promoted. Those who continue to support live hare coursing should also go abroad to see what has envolved from the original practice of live hare coursing. I am referring to drag coursing which takes place in Australia and Germany with some success. Nothing is set in stone as far as this practice is concerned and I would simply ask those in the industry to examine other ways of achieving the same objective of ensuring that the sport and the industry survive and prosper. That is the legitimate objective of those involved in coursing.

In so far as the preparation for coursing meetings is concerned, this is an area on which we will have to lift the lid. As recently as today I read in the newspaper of an individual case. I accept it is probably not representative of the greyhound industry as a whole — involving misuse of an animal associated with the blooding of greyhounds. This is not the first case of this kind and it will not be the last but it can no longer be allowed. It is a problem that will have to be faced as the image of greyhound racing improves. I would ask those in the industry to see how they can put that part of their house in order because it is a practice that would not be acceptable to the vast majority of Irish people if they knew precisely what was going on. They can only find out from the cases that appear in the newspapers from time to time.

Under section 3 the Minister may make regulations covering a number of matters. The muzzling of greyhounds has been referred to in detail. However, I am unhappy with the section dealing with the supervision by a veterinary surgeon of hares prior to, during and after coursing events. I am not satisfied that one veterinary surgeon is sufficient and I would ask the Minister to consider providing for at least two, one of whom would not be involved in any way in the industry or in servicing it. I am sure that is possible because many veterinary surgeons operate in an exclusively urban-area. In certain cases a particular event might be compromised because of a veterinary surgeon's close association with the industry. Certain individuals may not live up to the spirit of what is contained in the Bill. That is a point I should like the Minister to take into account — the deployment of two veterinary surgeons. I would also ask the Minister to make provision in the Bill for regular reports, at least on an annual basis, of what has transpired at various coursing meetings. Perhaps the same veterinary surgeons could be used to provide the Minister's Department or the industry with such a report, indicating precisely how the coursing meetings have been conducted and so on. In that way the Minister himself would continue to contribute to the enhancement of the industry.

Most of what I had to say on the industry I said in June last. I compliment the Minister on the introduction of this Bill and ask him not to cease his efforts to clean up the industry.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry (Mr. O'Shea)

In replying to the Second Stage of this Bill, I must first say how delighted I was to observe so many Members contributing. It was indicative of the level of interest, across all party lines, in the greyhound sector. That is only right, given the sector's important contribution to employment, farm incomes, tourism and our economy generally, and in particular to the lives of rural communities.

I was pleased to observe a general consensus in the House that the greyhound industry is one with significant development potential. The breeding sector can be extended and improved, while the racing, betting and entertainment aspects of the business warrant the adoption of a new approach. General financing, both the sourcing of adequate funds and their targeted distribution for the development of facilities for punters, ensuring an adequate return for breeders and owners alike necessitates a new co-ordinated effort, which would focus on the medium and long term future of the industry. Controls must be not only effective but clearly be seen to be so. Indeed, everybody involved in the industry must have confidence in that control regime.

If all of these issues are tackled, the industry will have a bright future. The first step to securing the industry's future will be the provision of a modern, legislative framework appropriate to the industry's needs. As I said yesterday, the 1958 Act needs to be thoroughly overhauled. I might add that work on this front is progressing apace in my Department.

This is a first short Bill, whose provisions cater for the areas in more urgent need of attention, such as the reconstitution of Bord na gCon, the removal of the ban on Sunday greyhound racing and a provision to empower the Minister to make regulations for the muzzling of greyhounds, in addition to the veterinary supervision of hares involved in coursing meetings.

Members raised a number of questions in relation to all of those issues. With regard to changes in the board of Bord na gCon, most Members who spoke seem to be concerned primarily with the removal of the requirement that three members of the board must be members of the executive committee of the Irish Coursing Club. Deputies Dukes and Molloy were particularly concerned that this Bill merely constituted a mechanism to allow for ministerial favouritism in the manner of such appointments. I reject that allegation outright. I made my position clear yesterday. It is my belief that the provisions of the existing legislation are too restrictive, especially in circumstances prevailing in which there is a chairman and only six ordinary members serving on that board. Excluding the chairman and the Irish Coursing Club, there are insufficient places remaining for representation of all other sectors. I believe there is need to include on the board somebody with good business and financial experience and expertise. If sectional interests are to be catered for specifically, the number of members on the board would have to be increased.

Some Deputies referred to the proposed board arrangements in the case of the new Horse Racing Authority, which, of course, will cater for a much larger industry and will comprise approximately twice as many members as Bord na gCon. In the case of a board of such size it will be comparativley easy to cater for representation on the part of all sectors or organisations involved and still leave room for the appointment of people with special expertise. This could easily prove too unwieldy in the case of Bord na gCon in that it probably operates at optimum effectiveness with a total of seven members.

In the drafting of the more comprehensive Bill in my Department consideration could be given to increasing the membership of the board and providing for some limited version or counterpart of what is being proposed in the case of the Home Racing Authority. However, Members will be aware that under the provisions of the 1958 Act, as it stands, the current board must be replaced by the end of the year, so that without the provisions of this Bill being enacted, a new board would have to be appointed for a full five year term.

I said earlier that the industry was in need of a new focus and that Bord na gCon was in need of new, wider experience and expertise in order to provide that focus. In so far as is practicable, in appointing members of that new board the Minister will have particular regard to a balanced representation for all the major players in the field. Those new arrangements would also provide that those new board members could be replaced on a phased basis, with two ordinary members retiring each year, thus providing flexibility and continuity. I put it to the House that we cannot wait another five years for these changes and that it would not be fair to appoint a board now whose terms of appointment would have to be radically changed next year.

To those Members concerned about the position of the Irish Coursing Club, I would say to them that I have already in this House acknowledged the substantial role of the club, historically and in recent years, in the organisation and development of the greyhound industry as a whole. Neither do I underestimate the contribution of members of the Irish Coursing Club who have served on the board of Bord na gCon over the years. However, this is not a case of retaining a statutory requirement that half of the board members must continue to be composed of a specific committee of that organisation. It is not unlikely that several people who would be members of that organisation, even serving on their executive, would serve on the new board.

Another factor raised in the House today was that there should be some women on the new board. It is the Minister's intention to have a good, relatively small, effective board, representative of a cross-section of relevant interests and specific expertise, which will include women members and most likely will include members of the Irish Coursing Club. We are seeking to provide the best forum for the industry's needs. I would say that the provisions of this Bill, so provide.

When I first assumed office my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Joe Walsh, has already established a task force to examiane the greyhound industry. Their attention was directed to three specific areas. The first was the declining attendance at greyhound meetings; second, the control of the industry; and, third, the matter of coursing. On receipt of the recommendations of the task force the Minister and I examined its contents, which were subsequently examined at official level within our Department. We then prepared a memorandum which the Minister submitted to Cabinet and was agreed by Government.

There was criticism of the fact that we did not have ready the second more comprehensive Bill for introduction and that we were unable to incorporate the provisions of both Bills in this one. The Greyhound Industry Act, 1958, which I understand had a very long passage through this House was compiled at a time when we did not have Teilifís Éireann. The bottom line in what the Government is seeking to achieve is a legislative framework through which the board can operate. We have got to provide the framework. The board is the critical element and it is of the utmost importance that the best possible board is put in place by the Government and that the board operates in the optimum framework. Many areas have had to be examined and legislation is progressing at a good pace. It is our intention to have that legislation before the House as soon as possible. Many of the issues raised by Deputies will be the subject of a wider and more comprehensive debate at that stage. The important point is the employment which will be created and the income which will accure to people at all levels of the sport. I dealt with this issue in my speech yesterday.

We want to give this industry a solid base from which to move forward in a way that is in the national interest and in the interests of employment. Those issues have yet to be dealt with in legislation. Deputies will accept that in the context of the new board we had to introduce this short amendment so that we can put in the place the most appropriate board. We had wished to provide for Sunday racing for some time and this legislation afforded us the opportunity to do so. The enabling legislation in relation to coursing and veterinary measures were introduced in response to undertakings given here earlier in the year. No time is being lost in the preparation of the comprehensive legislation which is so necessary to turn around the fortunes of the greyhound racing.

Question put and agreed to.