Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Apr 1994

Vol. 441 No. 3

Local Government Bill, 1994: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Durkan

I suspect the Minister had a great deal of time on his hands after identifying priority areas for reform and indulging in cosmetic nit-picking. I am tired listening to Ministers talk about reform of local government and improvements that could be made. All that happened is the local government system has deteriorated. None of the amendments has improved the system. Minor details, such as dual mandates, the exclusion of certain office holders from memberships and so on, do not mean anything to the public. They do not care whether we have triple mandates.

I do not understand why the Minister wasted time bringing in this Bill. He could have taken a tour of every local authority and experienced at first hand the jarring effect of a car tyre going into a large pothole. He would not have to read the newspapers to find out what state the roads are in or have people coming from afar to marvel at the degree to which they have deteriorated. He would not have to introduce reforms to make local government relevant or to improve its efficiency because he would realise there was need for practical reform in that funds should be made available to allow local authorities carry out their statutory functions. No amount of whitewash or covering over the cracks will change that. It is is fact of life.

I had hoped the Minister would see the error of his ways in his second year in office. Some time ago Deputy Crawford spoke about potholes in Monaghan and Cavan. The Minister was so happy with the position that he did not think it necessary or desirable to go to the bother of giving a prepared reply. He smiled confidently and looked across the House at the unfortunate Deputy Crawford. He said he had made sufficient money available and asked if the Deputy had not made representations to his local authority. He asked what they were doing with the money he gave them but he did not say he had reduced the amount of money available to each local authority by 10 per cent in the current year at a time when it should have been increased tenfold. Let us talk realistically about local government reform. The "reform" is a 10 per cent reduction in funding.

The motorist who drives over hill and dale is shocked by the state of the roads. The Minister is not aware of what is going on around him and that is sad. His backbenchers should have been the first to impact on his consciousness. Could it be possible that they failed to penetrate his subconscious or that he is totally impervious to their charms? Could it be possible he just does not care or does not understand the position? Could it be possible that the Government made such bad providion in the Estimates that it is throwing up its hands and saying it can do nothing about the matter? If that is not the case I implore the Minister, before it is too late, to ask the local authority members of his party if they have been given sufficient money for the maintenance of main and county roads. The Minister will be lucky to escape with his life because councillors know that the sight of the Minister in any constituency suggesting he gave money to repair the potholes would be a laugh. If the Minister can survive for another year without being assassinated by one of his own people or falling into or drowning in a pothole, he is capable of bearing interminable pressure such as no Minister experienced so far.

The Minister seems to be suffering from the Marie Antoinette syndrome — he does not fully understand the magnitude of the problem facing him. He has had the audacity to come into this House with a local government Bill in which he has avoided dealing with the real issues. The Minister should adopt a more practical attitude and give local authorities the necessary funding to meet their statutory needs. He should stop the nonsense engaged in by successive Ministers of stating at Estimates time that sufficient funds have been given to the local authorities. He has not given local authority sufficient funding and it now appears that he will not.

Unfortunately, it now appears that nothing short of a serious shock will change the Minister's thinking in this area. This shock treatment could include the withholding by motorists of car tax. The Minister of State will know of a case in my constituency where the people of Wicklow proposed withholding their car tax because no one had even looked at the extent of the problem with which they have had to deal in recent years. I had to advise against this action as they would have been breaking the law. However, the time will come when people will take the law into their own hands. I implore the Minister, while there is still time, to cop on and to get off his high horse but in so doing, he should be careful that he does not fall into a pothole.

Mr. Foley

I wish to share my time with Deputy Batt O'Keeffe.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Foley

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this very important Bill. I congratulate the Minister on its introduction, the third Bill on local government introduced in three years. The Minister also introduced legislation dealing with his main areas of responsibility — three electoral Acts, two planning Acts, a road Act, a housing Act, the Environmental Protection Agency Act and the Road Traffic Act. This Bill will strengthen local government in many ways. I also compliment the Minister of State, Deputy Stagg, on the tremendous work he is doing in the area of housing. Since he took responsibility for this portfolio public representatives have found it very easy to make direct contact with the housing section of his Department.

The Minister has highlighted the importance of local government as a worthwhile enterprise in its own right separate from central Government in both political and administrative spheres in so far as this is possible. The Bill provides for the holding of elections to borough corporations, urban district councils and town commissioners in 1994 and for the extension of outdated boundaries for the purposes of these elections. It also provides for the establishment of a statutory local government reorganisation committee to make proposals on the modernisation of town local government. This committee will consist of up to seven members and must include elected councillors from both town and county authorities. I welcome this local input into the committee.

The committee will have the task of preparing and submitting a reorganisation report containing proposals on reform of town local government, including recommendations on such matters as the number of classes of local authority, the role and functions appropriate to each class, finance, staffing and the organisational matters appropriate to each class. It will have to take into account all the relevant factors, such as community identity, civil tradition, local capability, the need for the effective and efficient discharge of functions and delivery of service and the need to safeguard the position and capacity of county councils as the primary unit of local government.

The Bill gives the reorganisation committee a clear mandate and provides a definite framework. I do not accept the points made by the Minister about the dual mandate. It is unfair to deprive Oireachtas Members, having been elected to the local authority, of holding office in their local authorities. In many local authorities it is the Oireachtas Member or Members who provide the link with national Government and who play a major part in furthering the interests of their local authorities. The Minister should re-examine this aspect of the Bill.

The Bill contains a number of other reform measures, including the updating and consolidation of the provisions relating to local authority membership, local elections and local authority meetings and procedures. The next elections to local authorities are fixed for 1998 with subsequent elections taking place at five year intervals thereafter. The Bill restates in a comprehensive and updated format the law relating to local authority library services and local authority powers in the provision of various facilities and services. I welcome the power being given to local authorities to make by-laws without the need for ministerial consent. The Bill updates the law dealing with local authority estimates, rates, personnel, associations, archives and other minor technical matters and removes unnecessary controls. The outdated provisions in enactments are being replaced, repealed or revoked by this Bill.

Local authorities are starved of funding. It is fundamental to the future of local government that sufficient funding be made available to local authorities especially for the maintenance of roads. The maintenance of the roads in County Kerry is a major problem for Kerry County Council. We have made two major submissions to the Minister within the past six months. It is fundamental to the developments which have taken place in County Kerry, for example, Farranfore Airport, that we have a good county road structure, and the only way we can provide this is with sufficient funding.

Tralee Urban District Council has shown tremendous initiative and foresight in the past six years in motivating tourism developments costing millions of pounds. It encouraged private investment in these developments in Tralee — the Aquadome, the restoration of a windmill and a steam train development. These developments would not have been possible if the local authority had not taken the initiative and borrowed a substantial amount of money. Thankfully the council will be in a position to make repayments after this year. If other local authorities were encouraged to undertake similar developments much more could be achieved. Local authorities are in a position to encourage private investment in such developments. I want to emphasise the importance of providing sufficient funding for local government.

The policy of strengthening the powers of local authorities and giving them greater freedom and flexibility has been consistently followed since 1991 and I hope this policy will be pursued in the future. The Bill continues and extends this approach. For example, it provides for the removal of control by central Government on local authorities on matters such as by-laws, parks, burial grounds, etc. The more freedom given to local government the better and the more development which will take place.

I welcome the Bill. The Minister should look again at the provisions regarding the dual mandate. Oireachtas Members play a very important part in local authorities; they provide the necessary link with central Government. For that reason alone they should not be prevented from holding office in their local authorities.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

Opposition Deputies have said that this is piecemeal legislation which is going nowhere and will do nothing. I should have thought that any Bill allocating an extra £2 million to our libraries would be welcomed and the fact that its provisions are about to repeal the legislation appertaining to libraries, giving wider powers to the library authorities. These are improvements the local authorities have been seeking for many years. The fact that local authorities can now draw up their by-laws is something all Members would welcome. The provisions of any Bill that tend to modernise archaic legislation are to be welcomed.

In his introductory remarks the Minister indicated that the provisions of this Bill provide for the repeal of 27 separate Acts in their entirety. I am sure Deputy Kenny will welcome that proposal, in addition to the fact that the Minister said he would examine the provisions in 78 different enactments with a view to their repeal, the type of activity for which we have been calling on the Minister for the Environment.

Effectively the Minister has also decided to set up an independent Local Government Reorganisation Commission, exactly what the Opposition had been seeking and has given that commission a 12 month timescale within which to report to him. That is welcome, progressive and is what one would expect of the present Minister and his Ministers of State.

We have the largest number of town commissions or urban councils in Cork, the boundaries of each of which have been extended. In that exercise the great thing was the amount of co-operation given by everybody involved — the county manager, officials and the present elected representatives. These are positive developments. When endeavouring to sell something one should build on positives.

I would be the first to admit that, while this Bill is not a panacea for all the ills that have befallen local authorities, it represents an important, progressive step in that direction. For that reason alone I am glad the Minister has seen fit to introduce it. Any detailed examination of the Bill would lead one to believe that the natural progression therefrom would be to examine Dáil constituencies and that what should follow is the single seat constituency along with the proportional representation system of election. The Minister has not taken that road in this Bill. Nonetheless it is something to which he must give serious consideration, given some of the provisions of this Bill.

As a member of a local authority I might be very subjective but, as a legislator one must endeavour to be objective. Being a member of a local authority my subjective view would be let me be a TD; let me be a member of a local authority; I would aspire to being a mayor, a chairman or vice-chairman of my county council. Of course, I would have such aspirations, as would every one of us, but we must also take into account the role of the TD as a legislator and the modernisation of the Dáil itself and what is taking place.

There were calls from Fine Gael for the introduction of a committee system and for its extension, which will continue into the future. This means that more of our time as Deputies will be taken up with the consideration and passage of legislation, which is as it should be. At the same time any TD analysing the content of his or her constituency work would admit that 80 per cent relates to local authority matters. For that reason I am delighted the Minister has decided not to go the whole hog and bar TDs from membership of local authorities, which is good in itself, because it is my firm belief that TDs have much to contribute at local level to the management of their cities and counties. I agree with the provisions of the Bill where it is stated that TDs should not be chairpersons or vice-chairpersons of local authorities because if, say, even for one year I were chairman of my county council, that would be a full time job and would mean I would be seeking to pair with somebody in this House over that year while I acted in that capacity. That is not right; that is not the reason we are elected to this House. While under present arrangements it is possible for us to hold membership of local authorities, being a chairman thereof is a professional job that should be left to councillors, not Members of the House of the Oireachtas. Were this question put to councillors nationwide we could be certain that their response would be to leave it to those not elected to Dáil or Seanad Éireann, it should be within their bailiwick because they have the time to do it; and to get on with the job.

Given that the Minister has decided to repeal such a large number of enactments, one matter about which all members of local authorities are concerned is: how efficient are local authorities? How well are our cities and counties managed? I believe there is a chasm here in that there is no regular efficiency and-or cost-effective audit. It is my belief that money is being squandered by some local authorities. The time has come when there will have to be much greater control over how such money is spent. We all know the saying, seek a busy person because he will do the job properly but my view is that say, a mayor, a lord mayor or a chairman of a county council, if also a TD, will not be able to devote every hour of his or her day to ensuring that the substantial amount of money being allocated to local authorities is well spent. For example, look at the county roads that have been properly surfaced over the past ten years, yet every year the amount of money for this purpose is increased. One need only look to the price structure for tarring our roads. It is my understanding that our costs are approximately one-third higher than those in the northern part of the country. Surely the time has come for somebody to investigate expenditure of this kind to ascertain whether there are cartels operating, whether people or companies are making undue profit at the expense of the State and, ultimately, at the expense of the taxpayer. This aspect of local authority administration must be addressed.

I think somebody referred to the managerial set-up within local authorities and the Local Appointments Commission. I have a beef about this in that politicians have been taken out of all these areas for fear of political patronage. For example, local authority officials sitting on interview boards has been described as being the great tour of Ireland. I am accusing nobody. Nonetheless there is a danger here of the old pals act. If there are senior officials of various local authorities travelling the country interviewing personnel for senior positions, there is a grave danger of the old pals act obtaining. Perhaps the Minister would examine this practice to ensure that senior personnel of one local authority would not be involved in the appointment of city managers, assistant city managers, county managers or assistant county managers. I am not pointing the finger but all such appointments should be open and above board. There have been a number of suggestions of the old pals act having been engaged in in recent years.

This Bill is welcome. We can progress from here to ensure that local government will become more meaningful to all of us. The devolving of powers to local authorities is something for which we have all called. For instance, I think we had to wait five years for the enactment of a speed limit; at least that is now happening under the Road Traffic Bill. In addition we have autonomy in respect of the libraries. It would be my hope that this trend will continue well into the future.

Mr. E. Kenny

I am happy to make a brief contribution to this debate.

The urban district council elections were postponed by this Government on the basis of their undertaking a radical reform of local government. This Bill, published some days ago, comprises a comprehensive analysis from the Minister's point of view of what should be done in local government in 1994, that is assuming he conducted an analysis into the present state of affairs vis-à-vis local government. I am disappointed that the evidence and the information available to the Minister from a wide variety of sources did not lead him to introduce a Bill of radical proportions. The only effect of this Bill is that urban council boundaries are being extended for electoral purposes this year, £2 million is being made available for libraries and urban district councils and local authorities will be given relief in respect of the introduction of by-laws.

Whoever wrote the first portion of the Minister's script is obviously a person of literary ability. "The law on local government was still an archaic, obscure and inconsistent labyrinth". It is not the usual outline one gets from Departments. Having referred to the local archives that person also has an interest in tradition and culture. Obviously they have a wealth of information about how archaic local government is. I am not sure whether that person is one of the two officials present but they must be bored out of their minds listening to references to county roads, potholes and so on.

I am disappointed that the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Smith, did not take this Bill to the limit and propose radical reform of local government. As the Minister said, we are five years from the centenary of the foundation of local government in Ireland. The legacy we bequeath to the next generation will not be great. As Deputy Batt O'Keeffe said, certain Acts are being repealed while others are being examined but the Bill does not address the fundamental questions which pertain to local government in the mid-nineties and as we head towards the end of the century.

The local authority is the fundamental organ of economic development and expansion in Ireland and it should be given the opportunity to be such. This Bill does not address the necessity for local authorities to grasp that opportunity. The Minister pointed out that in 1961 a clear majority of Ireland's population was rural; in 1994, 60 per cent of the population live in towns thus putting enormous pressure on housing, water and sanitary facilities, amenity and leisure facilities, educational and administrative facilities, etc.

The Minister touched on the question of the dual mandate and said that Deputies and Senators would be disqualified from local authority membership. I can picture the Minister for the Environment walking around Herbert Park or the fields of Tipperary thinking long and hard on the dual mandate. He arrived at the wonderful result that it would not be appropriate at this stage. The Minister would have thought long and hard about the dual mandate and whether he should confront the Deputies and Senators of the Fianna Fáil Party and tell them he was about to end the dual mandate and that they can be a Member of the Oireachtas or a member of a council but not both. No doubt the junior partner in Government, led by the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, would also have thought long and hard about this. I am not sure what advice the Minister of State would have given to the Minister before he arrived at the decision that dual membership would not be appropriate at this stage. Does that mean it may become appropriate at another stage? Will the Minister have to think long and hard about it again to take the next step? I note the references to "cathaoirleach" and "leas-chathaoirleach" of local authorities, but they will still be called "chairman", "chairperson" and so on throughout the country. The graduation from English terms to Irish terms in local authorities takes a long time.

Since 1975 I have served on the local authority of which I am a member, Mayo County Council. Attendance at meetings has never interfered with my ability to perform both jobs. In general, it enhances one's ability to deal with problems arising at local level. It helps the members of local authorities understand that, if necessary, there is another forum in which to raise these issues. If the Minister and the Minister of State seek the views of Government backbenchers who are also members of local authorities the majority will inevitably be in favour of a continuation of dual membership.

Physically, geographically and politically it would be difficult to hold dual mandate in terms of membership of this House and membership of the European Parliament because of the extensive constituencies and the duties involved. When one represents a Dáil constituency and is a part of a local authority one becomes familiar with various problems and is able to deal with them. The Minister's conclusion that dual membership would not be appropriate at this stage smacks of his fears of the wrath of standing up in the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party and saying that "dual membership is over and that as we approach 1999 as Minister for the Environment he has decreed that nobody who stands for the Dáil can also be a member of a local authority. That battle will be fought in the backrooms of the Fianna Fáil Party. I do not know the Labour Party position but I am sure they will have a view.

If the Fianna Fáil Party stand for the grassroots and for the small man they will want their Deputies serving on local authorities. That is a personal view. From experience I know it is feasible to have dual membership in the Dáil and on a local authority and that one can perform both functions well; one does not interfere unduly with the other.

I listened to Deputy O'Keeffe saying that Deputies should devote more time to legislation and scrutinising Committee Stages of Bills and so on. The quality of any Government should not be judged by the amount of legislation enacted but rather by the quality and the effect of that legislation for the common good and should reflect the rights of minority groups.

The effectiveness of a Government should be judged by the quality of the legislation passed, its effect on the common good and its reflection of rights for the minority. That is what the people elected their Deputies to do, in a general sense that is their brief. If their views are reflected in legislation it can solve the difficulties ordinary people face.

The principal organ of development should be the local authority but there is a great degree of overlap and undue bureaucracy in many local authorities. For instance in County Mayo, the functions of the development agencies overlap, although one is told that they do not. One has to deal with Údarás na Gaeltachta, Forbairt, Bord Iascaigh Mhara, the regional tourist offices, Bord Fáilte and to a lesser extent, Teagasc. The developmental agencies set up under the Programme for Economic and Social Progress, FÁS, the Leader programme, the county enterprise boards and the small industries division of Forbairt are also involved. A person with a proposal has to deal with a number of agencies. Evidence has emerged that duplicate grants were paid in respect of the same business — which were withdrawn when it was discovered. It was possible to submit applications to several bodies such as a county enterprise board and to a Leader programme and to submit duplicate original receipts in many cases. A single developmental organisation located in one centre, could streamline applications and eliminate duplication of administrative costs. State funding is wasted to some extent by the duplication of resources. The number of developmental organisations, good though they may be in their own right, causes great confusion. We can develop this point later but I am not happy with the situation.

Castlebar Urban District Council has an annual expenditure of around £2 million, £150,000 of which comes from the rates support grant and £600,000 from commercial rates. The rate is £39 in the £ valuation, one of the highest in the country; £150,000 in service charges and the domestic service charge is £110, one of the five highest in the country. If rates had not been abolished in the 70s householders would be paying rates of between £600 and £800 at 1994 levels — the rateable valuation might not be as high as the rates would impinge directly on the voters. Councillors deal with commercial water charges, car parking charges, annuities on council houses and revenue from graves. This leads to a shortfall and they are £1.1 million in debt. In fairness, the Department of the Environment increased their allocation by 3 or 4 per cent on last year's allocation and, with inflation so low, this will marginally reduce the debt. Many local authorities are in the same situation.

The Minister referred to the ability to introduce by-laws. This is a welcome trend but the reality of implementing it is another matter. For example, the Garda Commissioner has the authority to decide where double yellow lines will be located. I know my local authority submitted numerous applications to the Department of the Environment and to the Department of Justice for no parking areas but the number of queries raised suggests that officials in the Custom House were not au fait with the situation. The provisions on by-laws in the Bill will not deal with this problem or with the issue where local authorities may wish to have areas where travellers cannot park. One has to apply to the Revenue Commissioners for permission to set up a taxi rank. Perhaps the Minister will give examples of the by-laws that can be introduced by the local authorities without reference to ministerial sanctions.

A number of weeks ago I related an incident I witnessed in the course of my duties in the northern part of my constituency. Three bullocks were drinking out of a pothole and each had sufficient, which is an indication of the size of the pothole. Every Deputy, with the exception of those who live in small city constituencies where the roads are good, have problems with county roads.

The Commissioner did not do anything for the county road system in the county. If the county council is to be the organ of development something could be done about the duplication in training and expertise. A great deal needs to be done such as the development of new parks, wall building and the basic essentials of the side dressing of roads and cutting bushes. This could be done in conjunction with FÁS schemes but it does not happen because of problems with unions. In some counties as many as 300 or 400 people are doing this essential work and, as the Minister of State knows, if the water is not removed from the road surface there will be problems. Irrespective of what moneys are spent, the problem will not be dealt with unless there is adequate manpower to carry out that work in a wet climate.

I hope the Minister will accept amendments. He has an opportunity to reform local authorities to bring them into the next century so that they will be the principal organ of development as well as dealing with the fundamental question of the authorities' ability to raise money. I hope that on Committee Stage that the Minister and his Minister of State will, to use his own words, "think long and hard about this" and accept reasonable amendments.

Mr. O'Donoghue

The reform of local government was promised even before the promise was made to drain the Shannon. There is no older chestnut in national politics than the promise to introduce reforms.

While I would not describe this Bill as the most radical ever introduced it contains some extremely good, workable and sensible provisions. It also contains provisions which are anything but sensible. I refer to the proposal to disallow a Member of the Oireachtas from becoming chairperson or vice-chairperson of a local authority of which he or she is a member. This makes no sense. It is ridiculous to exclude a person who has a mandate from the people from holding the highest office on the council. In all probability this provision is unconstitutional, not that anyone will bother to challenge it. A body elected by the people has a democratic right to elect whatever individual is chooses to be chairperson or vice-chairperson of that body. Central Government is interfering by stating that a Member of the Oireachtas will no longer be allowed to be appointed as chairperson or vice-chairperson of a local authority. This is a negation of democracy and the Bill should be changed. A Member of the Oireachtas is entitled to be the chairperson or vice-chairperson of his or her local authority. I had the privilege and honour of being chairperson of Kerry County Council for one term. It will be a travesty of justice if this provision is implemented and it should be reconsidered. It is a bit like inviting somebody to play a game of football and refusing to pass the ball to them. We are not playing ball in this instance.

In relation to the reform of local authorities and the boundaries for urban authorities, the Bill illustrates an extremely disturbing trend which has continued unabated for many years, that is, the continued drift from rural Ireland towards the centre. This matter has to be addressed immediately. The ICMSA made an extremely good point that one of the more disturbing features in rural Ireland in the purchase of land by foreigners.

Debate adjourned.