Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 May 1994

Vol. 442 No. 7

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 12, 3, 7, 8 and 9. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders that: (1) Nos. 12 and 3 shall be decided without debate; and (2) the proceedings on the Report and Final Stages of No. 7, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 4.45 p.m. by one Question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance.

The Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy shall commence consideration of the Select Committee Stage of the Casual Trading Bill, 1994 and the Select Committee on Legislation and Security shall consider the Estimates relating to the Department of Defence on Tuesday next.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal that Nos. 12 and 3 be decided without debate satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 7 agreed? Agreed.

Mrs. Owen

I take this opportunity to congratulate Steve Collins, who is no relation, on winning the world title in Sheffield last night. There is a precedent that when an Irish person brings great credit on this country by winning a major sporting award we would extend congratulations to them. He happens to live in Dublin North——

Mr. Andrews

And happens to be Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Durkan

How did he manage to win?

Mrs. Owen

A man of many talents.

Mr. Barrett

How does the Deputy know?

Mr. Andrews

I know him well.

Mrs. Owen

He is one of the Minister's 11,000. The Programme for Government promises to amend the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act to include Telecom Éireann. When will that amendment come before the House? As the Taoiseach is aware, all the forebodings about the rebalancing of Telecom charges has come to pass and over 55 per cent of domestic users have increased telephone bills.

The Taoiseach

There is no legislation promised.

Mrs. Owen

Will the Minister apologise to the people for misleading them?

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

There are questions on the Order Paper concerning that matter.

Mrs. Owen

An amendment to that legislation was promised.

The Taoiseach

There is no promised legislation.

Mrs. Owen

It is in the Programme for Government.

The Taoiseach

The Programme for Government is not legislation.

Mrs. Owen

It has gone out the door with the Ethics Bill.

Proinsias De Rossa

The Committee on Foreign Affairs will meet later today to deal with the Estimate for overseas development aid. Has the Taoiseach received the request which the committee received from the Concern aid agency to assist in the provision of an airstrip at Ngara, Burundi, in view of the appalling position in Rwanda? Does the Government intend to introduce a Supplementary Estimate to provide the money needed for this airstrip?

An Ceann Comhairle

We must hesitate to interfere in the workings of committees.

Proinsias De Rossa

Is there a Government decision in relation to the matter and will a Supplementary Estimate be introduced to provide for the air-strip?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am anxious to facilitate Deputies in raising important matters——

Proinsias De Rossa

It is an urgent matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

——but we must have regard to regulations governing the Order of Business.

Proinsias De Rossa

I appreciate that and I tried to keep in order by relating it to the Estimate for overseas development aid, which is a legitimate matter to raise on the Order of Business.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a circuitous route to adopt.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Will the Taoiseach make time available for statements on the Grace Livingstone murder inquiry so that the House will know precisely what has been happening?

An Ceann Comhairle

There are other ways and means of raising that matter. The Deputy should put down a question——

Mr. G. Mitchell

Is it in order to ask the Taoiseach to make time available for statements?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order now.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Will the Taoiseach bring forward a criminal justice Bill so that this matter can be debated in the House? There is growing concern about the absence of a murder squad and the way in which murder investigations——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Mitchell. Deputy Rabbitte is offering.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Is it intended to bring forward a criminal justice Bill as promised so that these serious matters, including the need for a murder squad, can be discussed?

The Taoiseach

The legislation is at an early stage of preparation.

Mrs. Owen

In other words, we will have to wait three years for it.

Mr. Rabbitte

After many years this House agreed a reasonable interpretation of the sub judice rule. However, it now appears that a sub judice rule is being applied in respect of any matter before a committee of the House so that no Member of this House may raise it in this Chamber. I seek your guidance, Sir, on how we might approach this matter. It is the most absurd proposition that Members cannot raise in this Chamber a matter before a committee of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am aware of observations made on this matter and the element of ambiguity involved. I propose to clarify matters for the Deputy — and Deputy Enda Kenny — who raised the matter yesterday evening. I will communicate with the Deputies concerned with a view to elaboration in respect of the ruling I made. My ruling was never intended to place a block on matters from committees being raised in the House. I will communicate with the Deputies in some detail on this subject.

Mr. Barrett

I seek clarification on another matter. I received a letter from you, Sir, which presumably was based on information supplied by the Department of the Environment concerning a question which asked——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Barrett, my rulings may not be challenged in this fashion.

Mr. Barrett

I am not challenging your rulings.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy wishes to have any elaboration on the matter my office is at his disposal.

Mr. Barrett

I am not challenging your rulings.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is——

Mr. Barrett

If you wait a second you will hear what I want to say. Presumably you were informed, as the letter says, that the Minister has no official responsibility——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Barrett.

Mr. Barrett

Sorry, a Cheann Comhairle, I want to make——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is being disorderly.

Mr. Barrett

No, I am——

An Ceann Comhairle

You may not challenge my rulings in this fashion, Deputy.

Mr. Barrett

I am not challenging your rulings, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

You are, Deputy.

Mr. Barrett

You have not heard what I want to say.

An Ceann Comhairle

You were quoting from a letter I conveyed to you——

Mr. Barrett

Exactly.

An Ceann Comhairle

——but you may not do so.

Mr. Barrett

I will have to submit a letter. I want to make a point——

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy wishes to pursue the matter my office is at his disposal.

Mr. Barrett

I was elected to this Assembly and I will speak here, not in your office.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will not be treated with disdain. If the Deputy feels the Minister's reply or my reply was out of order he has ways and means of following it up.

Mr. Barrett

It has nothing to do with your office.

An Ceann Comhairle

He may not challenge my reply.

Mr. Barrett

I am not challenging your reply. I am merely asking a question.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am exasperated by the Deputy's attitude.

Mr. Barrett

I merely want to ask a question. The Minister is answerable to this House for the expenditure of moneys voted in it for works to be carried out by his Department or another agency.

Mr. Durkan

That is correct.

Mr. Barrett

Since the National Roads Authority was set up anyone who raises a question about the construction or completion date of a major road is told that the Minister has no responsibility to the Dáil——

An Ceann Comhairle

There are other ways of dealing with this matter. The Deputy can raise this matter by way of question or motion.

Mr. Barrett

I have never heard such nonsense——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Barrett.

Mr. Barrett

I want to say——

An Ceann Comhairle

No, Deputy.

Mr. Barrett

The same Minister——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will now resume his seat.

Mr. Barrett

The same Minister met a deputation in Mayo to discuss the construction of a road there——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Barrett will now resume his seat——

Mr. Barrett

——and made an announcement at the meeting about the construction of the road.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Barrett will resume his seat.

Mr. Barrett

Yet he is not answerable to this House. Who is codding whom about democracy?

Mrs. Owen

More transparency.

Mr. Durkan

He is shirking his responsibilities.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am proceeding to the business ordered. This is quite disorderly.

Mr. J. Higgins

May I——

An Ceann Comhairle

I will call the Deputy if his question is relevant.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Barrett

This House is becoming more irrelevant every day.

Mr. Carey

The Government's huge majority——

Mr. Barrett

The Government allocated £200,000 to Fianna Fáil cumann members to open a GAA pitch in Mullingar. The way in which public money is being expended is a disgrace.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is quite disorderly. I call Deputy Jim Higgins.

Mr. Barrett

Nobody is prepared to defend it, including yourself, Sir. It is about time a stop was put to the practice whereby Members of this House are silenced when they try to raise important issues.

Mr. Rabbitte

Parting is such sweet sorrow.

Mr. Barrett

Democracy depends on us. The spin doctors are taking over this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Barrett, I will not allow my impartiality to be called into question by you or anyone else in this House.

Mr. Barrett

I apologise, but the spin doctors are taking over.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Jim Higgins.

Mr. J. Higgins

On the question of promised educational legislation, now that planning seems to have gone out the window while we are awaiting such legislation and the numbers allowed to sit the higher diploma in education has been cut in half this year, thus leaving people with worthless degrees from the point of view of teaching — they will not even be able to emigrate — will the Taoiseach outline the new time frame for (a) the White Paper on education and (b) the education Bill——

An Ceann Comhairle

I want to facilitate the Deputy, I thought he was raising a question appropriate to the Order of Business but clearly he is not.

Mr. J. Higgins

It relates to the education Bill.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

It relates to the promised education Bill.

Mr. Rabbitte

Will the regional technical college be in Castlebar?

An Ceann Comhairle

Has a Bill been promised in respect of education?

Mr. J. Higgins

There are two parts to my question.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not elaborate now.

Mr. J. Higgins

I want to know the position in regard to the White Paper, which is the precursor, and the education Bill which will follow. Will the Taoiseach intervene with the Minister for Education to ensure that the ridiculous cuts in higher education are stopped once and for all?

The Taoiseach

I do not have any cause to intervene with the Minister for Education.

Mr. G. Mitchell

The Taoiseach certainly has cause to intervene with the Minister for the Environment.

The Taoiseach

As I think the Deputy is aware the education Bill is due to be introduced in 1995 and the White Paper on education is due to be introduced before the end of this year.

Mr. Durkan

So the Taoiseach agrees with the cuts?

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

On the question of legislation, some months ago I raised with the Taoiseach the question of a charities Bill and voiced my concern about the possible misuse of the generosity of the public by some charities which are not worthy of the name and the concerns of legitimate charities about the lack of up-to-date legislation. The Taoiseach indicated that some progress was being made in this regard. I strongly urge the Taoiseach to take into account the comments made in the meantime by the Comptroller and Auditor General about this matter and to introduce the new charities legislation as soon as possible.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am proceeding to item No. 12.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

I urge the Taoiseach to respond to my request.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made a speech.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

I am referring to the charities legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has been allowed quite some latitude.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Will the Taoiseach say when we can expect the charities Bill?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is it proposed to introduce a charities Bill?

The Taoiseach

As I am sure the Deputy is aware, the Bill is at a very early stage of preparation. The Department is dealing first with other priority legislation.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

I will continue to press the Taoiseach on this issue.