Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 27 Oct 1994

Vol. 446 No. 5

Heritage Council Bill, 1994 [Seanad]; Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht (Mr. M. Higgins)

Before Question Time I had given the background to this legislation and stated it was part of the corpus of legislation of which a number of Bills will form part. This legislation and the legislation for the National Museum and National Library, taken together, will provide a corpus of legislation which will bring the institutions into the modern world in terms of structure. It will also provide a comprehensive base in addressing such an important issue.

I have said also that in putting the National Heritage Council on a statutory basis, it was appropriate I thank the people who served on the council to date. I have already expressed my appreciation of the voluntary work of the members and those who assisted them. In particular, I thank Lord Killanin who worked long and hard for the council.

I outlined the meaning of the word "heritage" and its importance in my Department. I said there are particular bodies such as An Chomhairle Ealaíon, which deals with the arts, and Bord na Gaeilge, which deals with the Irish language and that we will now have An Comhairle Oidhreachta which will deal with matters of the physical heritage. I outlined also the functions of the National Heritage Council which were assigned to it in 1988.

The Bill proposes to replace the existing council with a statutory corporation with a broad range of functions in the heritage. The new council will also subsume the functions of the Wildlife Advisory Council, appointed under section 13 of the Wildlife Act 1976, and the functions of the Historic Monuments Council as provided for in the National Monuments (Amendment) Act 1987.

A new and important function which will also be given to the new council will be a special responsibility for buildings of architectural importance in public ownership.

No one will welcome this Bill more than the Chairman and members of the existing National Heritage Council. They have long been concerned with the council's lack of a statutory footing. This Bill will provide that statutory basis for the council's extended functions and will integrate the heritage advisory functions under one body. It will also strengthen the council's role in the protection of the architectural heritage by assigning a special role to it in relation to buildings of architectural and historic importance in public ownership.

It has been suggested that this provision should be extended to cover heritage buildings in private ownership and while I have some sympathy with this point of view, the problem of preserving our architectural heritage is too complex to deal with in this manner. I will, however, look at ways and means of improving statutory measures to protect the built heritage and I hope to introduce further legislation to deal with this issue.

There was a time when the presence of older buildings was often perceived as a barrier to progress and the task of their preservation deemed an unnecessary burden. The tenor of public opinion has, however, substantially changed and the preservation of our rich and varied built environment from medieval cathedrals to historic houses to vernacular buildings, is now seen as an integral part of protecting our cultural patrimony. It is our responsibility to improve the existing mechanisms to protect our heritage and ensure its survival for future generations. As part of this commitment to protect the built environment in an active way, we are preparing to ratify the European Convention for the Protection of Architectural Heritage which was signed in Granada in 1985.

The central purpose of this Bill is to establish a statutory council comprised of persons with an interest in and knowledge and experience of heritage matters over the broad range. The council will be entitled to establish its own committees in addition to those required under the provisions of the Bill and it will have the necessary staff and financial resources to enable it to carry out its functions.

I mentioned earlier that a new and important role will be assigned to the new statutory council in relation to buildings designated as heritage buildings under the Bill in the ownership of a public authority. An Chomhairle Oidhreachta will advise on buildings to be designated as heritage buildings and could effectively prevent — although I hoped such circumstances would not arise — a public authority from demolishing, altering significantly or disposing of a heritage building unless I agree, or where my agreement is not forthcoming, the Government agree with the plans of the public authority.

In addition, the Bill provides for the dissolution of the Historic Monuments Council and the Wildlife Advisory Council and the transfer of those advisory functions to An Chomhairle Oidhreachta. Section 4 provides for the repeal of the legal provisions establishing the Wildlife Advisory Council and the Historical Monuments Council. These physical heritage advisory functions will now be integrated under one body, An Chomhairle Oidhreachta.

Section 6 provides for the general duty of the council to propose policies and priorities in relation to the physical heritage and sets out a number of specific functions of the council, to promote interest in the heritage — which is important and will involve the co-operation of other Departments, particularly the Department of Education — and to co-operate with and co-ordinate the activities of State and public and private bodies in the area of the physical heritage. I appreciate the valuable work and promotion of responsible attitudes to heritage carried out by voluntary bodies.

Section 7 provides that the council may make recommendations to me, that they may make such recommendations public and requires that I respond to them within six months. Section 8 imposes a requirement on the council to respond to my requests for advice and information. Section 9 provides that I may, after consultation with the Government and with the approval of both Houses of the Oireachtas, confer additional functions on the council relating to the national heritage.

Section 10 is a special provision introduced to increase the protection of the State's built heritage by assigning an active role to An Chomhairle Oidhreachta. If the Heritage Council becomes aware of proposals affecting a building it considers to be of heritage value which is owned by the State, a statutory body or other State agency or local authority, it may advise that authority in relation to such proposals but there is no obligation on the authority to accept such advice. Under this section, buildings may be designated heritage buildings by me on the council's advice and the Department, statutory body, State agency or local authority would be required to notify An Chomhairle Oidhreachta of its proposals relating to such heritage buildings. They would be prevented from carrying out a proposal contrary to the council's advice without Government agreement, unless my agreement to such a proposal or to a modified from of it was obtained.

Section 11 empowers the council to advise and assist any persons on matters relating to the functions of the council including making financial assistance available. Section 15 sets out the circumstances as a consequence whereof the chairperson or any member of the council or committee of the council shall automatically cease to be a member of the council or committee, as the case may be. These circumstances include bankruptcy, imprisonment and failure to disclose a pecuniary or other beneficial interest in any transaction or dealings with the council.

Section 16 provides for the exclusion from membership of the council of Members of the Oireachtas and members of the European Parliament. Section 17 requires that members of the council or of a committee of it disclose to the council or committee, as the case may be, any pecuniary or other beneficial interest in, or material to, any matter which falls to be considered by the council or committee.

Section 18 provides for the council to employ its own staff, consultants or advisers. The council will be required to ensure that an adequate proportion of its staff will be competent in Irish so that service may be given through Irish as well as English. This section excludes from membership of the council staff, Members of either House of the Oireachtas and members of the European Parliament.

Section 19 provides for a declaration of interests in land by prescribed staff of the council or by any prescribed person whose services are availed of by the council. It also provides that failure to make such a declaration, or the making of a false or misleading declaration, shall be an offence carrying a maximum penalty on summary conviction of £1,000 and on conviction on indictment of £10,000.

Section 22 requires the council to submit a report in Irish and English to me within six months after the end of each year and provides that the council may publish the report.

Paragraphs 1, 2 and 3 of the Schedule provide for the appointment by me of the council consisting of a chairperson and not more than 16 ordinary members, for the period of office of such persons to be not more than five years and that such persons may not serve more than two consecutive terms; for a gender balance in the appointment of members of the council — Members will recall that when amending the broadcasting legislation and in the new regulations governing the appointment of the RTE Authority, I legislated for a gender balance —

Proinsias De Rossa

Gender balance should not be used to cover a number of sins.

Mr. M. Higgins

Sins are not necessarily gender specific.

Miss Quill

One hopes not.

Mr. M. Higgins

Perhaps if I explain the principle it may recommend itself to Deputy De Rossa. No fewer than seven people shall be men and no fewer than seven shall be women.

Miss Quill

That is admirable.

Mr. M. Higgins

Persons appointed as members of the council shall have an interest in or knowledge or experience of the national heritage.

Paragraph 9 provides that the council may establish committees to perform certain functions. It shall establish a standing committee on wildlife and a standing committee on archaeology. I may appoint three persons who are not members of the council to each standing committee. These latter committees effectively replace the Wildlife Advisory Council and the Historic Monuments Council. The committees will be chaired by members of the council but may include persons who are not members. I propose to introduce an amendment on Committee Stage to provide for standing committees on architecture and inland waterways.

I stated that the legislation was introduced in the Seanad and on foot of the discussion there amendments were made. I propose to introduce on Committee Stage an amendment which will add to the standing committees a committee to deal with architecture and one to deal with inland waterways.

Mar a dúirt mé níos túisce, tá súil agam go gcuirfear fáilte roimh an mBille ó gach taobh den Teach mar tuigim go maith go bhfuil suim ag beagnach gach Teachta san ábhar seo mar chuid den chlár reachtaíochta atá á thionscnamh agam sa réimse leathan seo. Tá áthas ar leith orm go bhfuil ar mo chumas an reachtaíocht áirithe seo atá geallta le fada a thabhairt isteach.

Mr. Creed

I welcome the Minister and compliment him on bringing forward this Bill. It is the second major Bill he has introduced during his tenure as Minister and follows hot on the heels of the National Monuments Bill. The speed with which his Department is dealing with these matters is welcome. I welcome the Bill which is part of the corpus of necessary legislation in this area. It would be remiss of me not to pay tribute, as the Minister has done, to the National Heritage Council which, since it was established in 1988, has carried out trojan work which has very often been ignored in many quarters.

It is worth recalling the terms of reference given to the council by the then Taoiseach in 1988. It was required to formulate policies and priorities; to identify, protect, preserve, enhance and increase awareness of Ireland's heritage in the specific areas of archaeology, architecture, flora, fauna, landscape, heritage gardens and certain inland waterways; to promote among the general public an interest and pride in their heritage and to facilitate appreciation and enjoyment of it; to work closely with and make recommendations to Government Departments, planning authorities, public bodies and State companies in relation to all matters coming within its general area of responsibility and to ensure the co-ordination of all activities in the heritage field. Departments and local authorities have been somewhat remiss in their willingness to co-operate with the Heritage Council in this area. This is one of the main reasons the council needs to be put on a statutory footing.

It was also required to decide on the distribution of moneys allocated for heritage work, subject to the approval of the Taoiseach, to decide on the priorities for such expenditure and to advise the Government on the legislation establishing a statutory heritage council. While certain irreversible damage has been done to our heritage during the intervening period, six years is not an excessively long time to wait for legislation which will establish a statutory heritage council. There has been an increasing perception of the Heritage Council solely as a funding agency, while its role in formulating policy, determining priorities and allocating funds has been ignored. This is one of the main reasons it is necessary to enforce two way consultation between the council and public and private bodies and individuals.

It is worth noting the recently published report of the Kerry County Enterprise Board which concludes that there is saturation of heritage centres. I agree with that conclusion — the bubble has burst in terms of the number of heritage centres which can be maintained at a high standard. While the plethora of heritage centres which has been developed in recent years is welcome in that it indicates an increased awareness and appreciation of our heritage, problems arise in regard to the future funding of these centres, particularly those which have been funded out of the public purse. It is all very well to make a once-off capital allocation towards the construction of a heritage centre but someone has to meet its subsequent ongoing running costs. It would be wise to take cognisance of the findings of the Kerry County Enterprise Board which, I think, would be recognised as a leader in the area of cultural tourism. Heritage centres have made a substantial input to local economies by attracting tourists, but cognisance must be taken of the points made in that report.

Heritage centres which do not attract a local input into their funding are the ones which will experience difficulties in meeting their future financial requirements. We should be extremely cautious about the allocation of funding and strive to ensure that new heritage centres have adequate local contacts before they secure public funding.

Section 5 (3) provides that the council shall be a body corporate with perpetual succession and power to sue and be sued in its own name but shall not have power to hold land. I understand the inclusion of this provision. Local authorities and other public bodies are, for want of a better term, laboured with the responsibility of looking after buildings which have a heritage value but which give rise to an enormous cost burden. If the council could accept gifts of that nature it would be overrun with obligations which it could not possibly finance.

The recent case involving the courthouse in Carrick-on-Shannon and the dispute which arose with Leitrim County Council highlight a problem which needs to be addressed. I think the latter case has now been satisfactorily resolved. Local authorities are burdened with the responsibility of looking after certain buildings, including courthouses. I am sure the Minister will recall from his days as a member of a local authority the numerous debates which took place among members who were dissatisfied about their responsibility to maintain these buildings at considerable expense. Departments have by and large ignored the need to preserve public buildings. In the case of Carrick-on-Shannon courthouse, the Department of the Environment proposed to make an allocation for new local authority offices and the courthouse was to be demolished. Obviously it would not be possible for the local authority to refinance the reconstruction of that building and the Department should be made aware of its obligations under the legislation to consult with the local authorities. I welcome the Minister's intervention in this case.

I availed of the opportunity during Question Time to look up the word "heritage" which is defined as "that which is inherited". I cannot understand why this Bill could not have been extended to include the National Library and the National Museum. The explanatory memorandum states that the purpose of the Bill is to establish a body to perform certain functions in relation to the physical heritage. This may be an unnecessary sectionalisation of the heritage area and it may have been possible to extend the scope of the Bill and make all heritage matters the responsibility of one body.

The National Heritage Council could have been broadened to bring the heritage area under one body. As the council has power to establish committees, it could have established a committee which would have statutory functions to deal with the National Library and the National Museum. It is a demarcation for which I fail to see the logic. The Minister may have some laudable explanation and, if so, I ask him to develop that point further. The Bill is welcome and on Committee Stage I look forward to ironing out minor details with the Minister.

Miss Quill

Ar an gcéad dul síos, ba mhaith liom a rá go gcuirim féin agus mo pháirtí fáilte roimh an mBille atá os comhair an Tí inniu. Réitím go mór leis na cuspóirí a bhí in aigne ag an Aire nuair a chur sé an Bille seo le chéile. Mar a deirtear i nGaeilge, "más maith, is mithid". Is mithid an reachtaíocht seo a chur i bhfeidhm anois. Táimid ag druidim le deireadh an chéid seo. Níl ach raidhse bliana fágtha go dtí go mbeidh an míleanam ann.

There can hardly be a more opportune time for us to define what we mean by our heritage. That is what the Minister has in mind in the legislation before the House. It was a nice gesture to introduce the Bill in the Seanad. It certainly gives recognition to a constituent body of this grouping that sits in a room which is, perhaps, one of our loveliest heritage items. I have no doubt that the setting in which this Bill was introduced was not lost on the Minister when he decided to swop the prosaic ceiling on which we have to gaze for the lovely setting and surrounds of the Seanad Chamber with its fine ceiling. I have no ambition to sit in that Chamber but I am occasionally a visitor and I marvel at the fact that Irish craftsmen were able to restore that ceiling which was damaged by wear, tear and age.

Mr. Creed

And hot air.

Miss Quill

Members campaigning in Cork know the feeling. It is a source of great satisfaction to us that craftsmen were able to restore that ceiling and other elements of that room to its former glory of almost 200 years ago when the building was erected.

I warmly welcome the Bill. It is another measure in the right direction when it comes to identifying, defining, cataloguing and putting in place proper provisions so that we can preserve and pass on valuable items of our heritage to another generation, who will do the same when their turn comes. It is the right spirit in which to approach the turn of the century. At most, only two elections will be held in this century. Occasionally when travelling in my car I hear people on the radio being asked how they will celebrate the turn of the century. It would be great if legislators could celebrate it by having in place proper procedures, proper legislation, proper funding and resources and proper mechanisms to preserve what is good of this century and open the door to a new century. That is another reason the introduction of this Bill is appropriate.

It is a welcome measure and taken in its own right, will achieve much. A number of other Bills, which may not come within the ambit of the Minister's Department, ought to be introduced parallel with this Bill. There is a serious lack of a proper conservation Bill. I am pleased the Minister proposes to include architecture by means of amendments which he intends to table. Surely one of the great products of our civilisation is the buildings we put in place. We write our life stories on many pages but our buildings, big or small, on the scale of Georgian mansions in Merrion Square, farm buildings in the country or thatched cottages, are all part of the embroidery of our life story. There must be a strong and determined attempt to preserve what is good in them and not to permit their demolition. Already, many good and interesting buildings have been demolished. In earlier times there was a different perspective in regard to what was worth preserving. It is fundamental to preserve our good Georgian buildings. It is equally important to keep alive the life story, dwelling houses and other buildings attached to them, of people who lived in less lofty surroundings. They are an essential element of our civilisation and worthy of preservation. Will the Minister try to influence his colleague with responsibility in this area to press ahead with a proper conservation Bill?

I welcome this Bill. The time is right to put the National Heritage Council which has done such sterling work on a statutory basis. That is its central provision. When that is done it is of fundamental importance that proper resources and funding are made available to enable that body to achieve its ambitions and meet the objectives of this Bill.

The Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Higgins, was gracious enough to accept three separate amendments in the other House, tabled by Senator John Dardis, on behalf of our party, and I thank him. One of the amendments related to the age of an object which would qualify for inclusion. The age in the Bill as originally drafted was 50 years. We thought that was too long especially at the rate of obsolescence. That limit may have been acceptable at the end of the 19th century but it is not acceptable at the tail end of the 20th century. Because of the rate of obsolescence of all items, farm implements, machinery for the generation of electricity or buildings from which workers laid railways, should qualify for inclusion. I thank the Minister for taking that amendment on board and fixing the age of the object at 25 years.

I acknowledge that the Title of the Bill was enlarged to include the word "protection" of the national heritage and that should be the overall objective. We must preserve, protect and pass on our heritage to future generations. The Minister accepted an amendment creating a role for regional authorities giving us a better Bill.

Deputy Creed referred to a recent article in the Cork Examiner in which Kerry County Council correctly reminded us that we may have reached saturation point in terms of heritage centres and that if we proceed further down that road we may devalue and misinterpret the real meaning of our heritage. The time has come to call a halt. Our heritage is integral and we can only go so far in tailoring it to meet the whims of tourists many of whom, particularly those from Europe, have a discerning view of heritage. In attempting to generate essential tourism revenue, we should not get caught up in peppering the country with heritage centres at the expense of preserving what is worth while and important. This is important not only from a tourism point of view, but also for our young people whose birthright is a protected and preserved heritage.

The time will come when the Heritage Council will need more teeth. The Minister stated that the remit of the Bill extends only to property in public ownership, but that he would redress that matter. I urge him to do so as soon as possible because a great deal of property which ought to be preserved is not in public ownership. Many interesting houses are not in public ownership and local authorities have neither the power nor the finances to acquire and maintain such artefacts of interest. That could be covered in a well drafted conservation Bill. The House in which the poet Seán Ó Riordáin lived in Iniscarra, County Cork, would be of immense interest to our people, but it has fallen into grave disrepair. The local authority does not appear to have the wherewithal to restore and maintain it and thereby make it accessible to the public. It is difficult to imagine a time when the authorities in Stratford-upon-Avon would not preserve the house of Shakespeare and Anne Hathaway and others that date back to the 17th century. Yet a small manageable house of one of Ireland's most significant poets — certainly since the 17th century — is not preserved. Because it is not in public ownership and the local authorities do not have the necessary funding, it may be lost forever. I hope that does not happen. That is merely one example of many other such houses, some of which are in my area. We must create a mechanism whereby properties not in public ownership can be acquired and preserved in accordance with the spirit of the Bill. As the Minister gave a commitment in that regard, I will not elaborate the point.

I welcome the inclusion in the Bill of matters relating to our landscape and wildlife. The wildlife division of the forestry Department did great work. It was one of the most creative and successful divisions of that Department. Many wildlife areas in Cork and Kerry were developed and can now be used for the enjoyment and education of our children. I pay tribute to the staff of that section who, in some cases merely because of an interest in wildlife matters, carried out great work. Interest in wildlife is increasing among our young population. Shivers run down my spine when I see ditches, hedgerows, and trees being knocked down to make way for modern farming. The mainstay of our civilisation is agriculture; we do not have a great history of industrial development. The pattern of the field and the hedgegrows put in place by our forefathers are an essential part of our our civilisation is agriculture; we do not have a great history of industrial development. The pattern of the field and the hedgegrows put in place by our forefathers are an essential part of our civilisation and must be catalogued and protected. For that reason I am pleased the Minister included matters of landscape in the Bill. He also included waterways and locks, which hold a sense of mystery and wonder for the young and not so young.

Do our railway lines not have something to offer in terms of this Bill? Many railway station buildings were constructed in cut limestone and have beautiful intricate patterns of wrought iron. These were ignored when railway lines were closed down. A county register of housing stock should be drawn up and certain areas listed for conservation. That is the only way the integrity of our housing heritage will remain intact for future generations. A strong case can be advanced for some type of tax arrangement which would enable people to retain interesting houses. In the 1960s and 1970s anyway, it seemed to have been the fashion, for a variety of reasons, for people to move into what were described as the "bungalow bliss" type houses, leaving their fine houses to fall into dereliction.

The last question I posed at the Question Time today to the Minister for the Environment related to the reinstatement of the house improvement grant, and the Minister quite rightly pointed out that, in its previous application, it had been grossly abused. However a very strong case can be made for its reinstatement in specific circumstances. I have been considerably saddened to witness villages, some of which I know well, where fine houses built in the 1920s, 1930s or even 1940s are falling into disrepair and dereliction because families have died out. This happens in country villages where younger generations are forced to go to cities to find work and make their homes. I have seen villages die and good, solid, two storey, well designed, slate houses fall into dereliction while local authorities build sub-standard, shabby houses at the tail end of the village.

Had there been any foresight or interest in our heritage, would not local authorities have been given the resources to purchase these houses, to perhaps install better plumbing in some cases, or to modernise others while keeping the villages and their streetscapes intact? Surely that would be in accordance with what we are endeavouring to do under this Bill? Will the Minister take those points on board, some relate to this Bill and others to impending legislation, but all are very important to me, and comply with the spirit of this Bill.

There is one provision in the Bill to which we might address ourselves. I note, that the Heritage Council will be required to publish an annual report which will be submitted to the Houses of the Oireachtas but this will not have to include accounts. That does not constitute any major weakness inasmuch as there is provision that the accounts must be submitted to the Houses of the Oireachtas — in which regard there is absolute transparency — but we must move towards a time when annual reports will include financial reports. Now is as good a time as any to put that principle in place. It is very difficult to do it in respect of existing legislation or bodies. When creating new bodies — and in a sense we are doing that today as we are giving an older body a statutory function — we should take that principle on board so that, in addition to providing an annual report, there would be a financial report. In a sense that is the best way to ascertain whether the relevant legislation is achieving its aim and if sufficient finance has been forthcoming to implement its provisions. In addition, it is the manner in which we can ascertain whether moneys are being spent in accordance with the priorities we are attempting to lay down in the context of this Bill.

I very much welcome the Bill and have every confidence that, when enacted, it will make a very great difference here generally. I shall table perhaps three amendments on Committee Stage.

Debate adjourned.