Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 27 Oct 1994

Vol. 446 No. 5

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 5, 6, 7, 8, 1 and 2.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that (1) Nos. 5 and 6 shall be decided without debate; (2) the proceedings on No. 7, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 1.30 p.m. today and the following arrangements shall apply; (i) the speech of a Minister or Minister of State and the main spokesperson for the Fine Gael Party, the Progressive Democrat Party and the Technical Group shall not exceed 30 minutes in each case; (ii) the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; (iii) Members may share time; and (iv) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon not later than 1.15 p.m. to make a speech in reply; (3) the proceedings on the Second Stage of No. 8, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 4.45 p.m.; (4) the Dáil on its rising this evening shall adjourn until Wednesday, 2 November 1994.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are the proposals for dealing with Nos. 5 and 6 satisfactory?

Mr. Dukes

Most Members should agree that the proposal to take No. 5 without debate is absolutely outrageous. What is being proposed is a major infringement on the very few rights left to Deputies in the House. As far as I know, this proposal has not been discussed by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and as far as I have been able to find out——

An Ceann Comhairle

I must dissuade the Deputy from making a speech at this time.

Mr. Dukes

If this motion is passed there will be precious little opportunity for us to make speeches anywhere else. As far as I know, this proposal has not been discussed by the parliamentary parties of any of the groups represented in this House.

Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Spring)

Why does the Deputy not address them in the House? He is aiming at the wrong target.

Mr. Dukes

This is a shameful move by the Whips of all the parties.

Minister for the Environment (Mr. M. Smith)

The Deputy should not attack his Whip.

Mr. N. Treacy

He is touching a raw bone.

Mr. Dukes

It is entirely in keeping——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Dukes

Democratic parties are being asked to deliberately——

An Ceann Comhairle

I take it the Deputy is opposing the proposal for dealing with No. 5. I will put the question.

Question, "That Nos. 5 and 6 be decided without debate" put and declared carried.

Mr. Dukes

It is——

An Ceann Comhairle

The vote ends the debate.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Mr. Dempsey)

In regard to this matter, a request was made by the Fine Gael Whip and the Government did not oppose it in order to facilitate that party.

(Interruptions.)

Miss Harney

They are trying to keep the boys in line.

Mr. Dukes

Where is the Labour Party?

Mr. Spring

We will hardly be defending the Deputy.

Mr. Dukes

They are like sheep.

Mr. E. Ryan

Back to the corral.

Mr. Dukes

The Deputies opposite cannot even see where it is.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 7 satisfactory? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 8 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal that the Dáil on its rising this evening shall adjourn until 2 November satisfactory? Agreed.

Mr. E. Kenny

With regard to the Adjournment of the Dáil, it was agreed at the Whips' meeting that the Dáil would adjourn until next Wednesday and also sit on Thursday. There was an element of speculation in the media that this House would adjourn for a two week period and would not sit next week. There reports were completely erroneous and the people responsible for writing such irrelevant detail and trivia should correct them.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. Ferris

They are in the press gallery.

Mr. Spring

They are blushing.

Mrs. Owen

In the interests of fairness and clarity, yesterday in reply to Private Notice Questions from Deputy Hogan and others the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications stated: "I am saying clearly I had no such participation, nor did my Department have any such——

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy Owen.

Mrs. Owen

Will you allow me the same freedom you gave the Taoiseach when he referred to this matter? I appeal to you——

An Ceann Comhairle

Fairness and impartiality have always been keynotes of my office and my decisions.

Mrs. Owen

Will you hear me out?

An Ceann Comhairle

Not on that subject.

Mrs. Doyle

You heard what the Taoiseach had to say on it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have advised Deputies how to proceed.

Mrs. Doyle

Are there different rules for the Taoiseach?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have advised Deputies that they might raise this matter by way of substantive motion.

The Taoiseach

That is a challenge, which the Deputy should take up.

Mrs. Owen

I will.

An Ceann Comhairle

The House knows full well the amount of time devoted to this matter yesterday and the day before. I can hear no further comment now on this subject.

Mrs. Owen

On a point of order, there is a precedent where Ministers and Deputies who have given misleading information to the House——

The Taoiseach

Wrong.

Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications (Mr. Cowen)

Disgraceful.

Mrs. Owen

——can make a personal statement in the House. It is clear from the press conference held by a civil servant last night, at which he admitted he had intervened in this matter, that the Minister is hiding behind——

Mr. Cowen

That is not true.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mrs. Owen

If you have any role in this House you must allow us to have clarification of the seriously misleading statement——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have advised the House how to proceed.

Mrs. Owen

I am asking you to follow a precedent.

An Ceann Comhairle

This matter is not in order now.

Mrs. Doyle

It was in order for the Taoiseach.

Mr. Cowen

The Taoiseach concluded the matter.

Mrs. Owen

Before the Taoiseach read the Order of Business he read a statement.

Mr. M. McDowell

The Chair did not stop him.

Mrs. Owen

It was not an extempore statement but a printed one.

The Taoiseach

I did not read it.

Mrs. Owen

It looked as if he read a statement because he turned over a page.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is to be no debate on the matter now. Deputy Owen has made her point and she may not go any further on this subject.

Mrs. Owen

I want to raise a question on promised legislation. Is that all right?

An Ceann Comhairle

I hope so.

Mrs. Owen

Under the Ministers and Secretaries Act, 1924——

The Taoiseach

There is no legislation promised in this area.

Mrs. Owen

——a Minister is responsible for everything that happens in his or her Department. May I ask the Taoiseach if he intends transferring responsibility in certain areas from Ministers to civil servants? When will he bring forward an amendment to the legislation?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is legislation promised in this area?

The Taoiseach

No.

Mrs. Owen

In view of the way civil servants——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Owen must now desist.

Mrs. Owen

Yesterday Deputy Hogan——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy knows the procedure at this time.

Mrs. Owen

——was accused by the Minister of casting aspersions on him and on civil servants——

Mr. Cowen

Of peddling untruths for the past two days.

Mr. G. Mitchell

He did no such thing. A Cheann Comhairle, did you hear that comment?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Owen, I must ask you to resume your seat.

Mrs. Owen

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Owen, if you persist you know the procedure the Chair must adopt.

Mr. Cowen

He cannot stand over it.

Mr. G. Mitchell

He will stand over it.

Mr. Cowen

He should repeat it outside the House.

Mrs. Owen

May I make a further point? A civil servant——

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy, it does not arise now.

Mrs. Owen

It does.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are many ways open to the Deputy to raise the matter.

Mr. Cowen

He should repeat it outside the House.

Mr. R. Bruton

The Minister can read it in today's edition of The Irish Times.

Mr. Cowen

That is his version of the truth.

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter must be discussed in accordance with the procedures of this House. I call Deputy Mary Harney.

Mrs. Owen

Can you ask the Minister under the procedures of the House to make a personal statement clarifying the misleading statements and accusations he made——

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot ask any Member to make a personal statement in the House. That is a matter for the Deputies or Ministers concerned.

Mr. Cowen

The Deputy should ask Deputy Hogan to repeat his statements outside the House. We will then see who has credibility.

Mrs. Doyle

It is printed in the press today. That is outside the House.

Mr. Cowen

I will examine it.

Mrs. Owen

The Minister is a coward and he is hiding behind his civil servants.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Owen, please have regard to proper parliamentary language. The word "coward" should not have been used as it is unparliamentary.

Mr. Cowen

I never did anything of the sort.

Mrs. Doyle

He is letting civil servants take the blame for something that is his responsibility. The buck stops with the Minister.

Mr. Cowen

That is incorrect. We did nothing wrong.

Mr. M. McDowell

Who is "we"?

Mr. G. Mitchell

Who tampered with the report?

Mr. Cowen

No one tampered with it; it was amended. The Deputy should read the statement.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Who arranged for the report to be changed?

Mr. Cowen

The Deputy should read the statement.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Civil servants have——

Mr. Cowen

I will not be shouted down by the Deputy.

Mr. G. Mitchell

The Minister is hiding behind civil servants, an act of political cowardice.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Mitchell must restrain himself. Deputy Mary Harney.

Mr. Ferris

He should be quiet for the sake of the children in the public gallery.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I want to hear Deputy Harney, and I am sure the House does also.

Miss Harney

Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle. I think you will agree that it is in order for you to give Members the same opportunity you gave the Taoiseach yesterday morning and this morning. I want to repeat what I said yesterday: there was improper interference in the planning process.

Mr. Cowen

I deny that.

Miss Harney

I asked the Minister relevant questions which have not been answered. I want to challenge him on a point.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Harney.

Miss Harney

The Minister's office handled this matter and he wheeled out civil servants in the company of his press officer——

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputies to refrain from making accusations across the floor of the House.

Miss Harney

The Minister is accountable to the Dáil, yet he did not answer my questions. This is a very serious matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Harney, I said earlier——

Miss Harney

Did the Minister discuss this matter with the Secretary of his Department?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must listen to the Chair.

Miss Harney

I will, but I am entitled to make a point.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have said earlier there are procedures whereby Members may raise this matter. I have recommended that if serious charges are being made, as indeed they are, and unparliamentary terms are being used such as the word "coward"——

Mr. G. Mitchell

Did you hear the word "untruth" from the other side of the House or have you difficulty in hearing with your left ear?

An Ceann Comhairle

I advise the Deputies to take this matter up by way of substantive motion in Private Members' time.

Miss Harney

We raised this matter yesterday and my questions were not answered.

An Ceann Comhairle

If Deputies are dissatisfied with Ministers' replies they have the usual remedy.

Miss Harney

After a meeting between the Taoiseach, the Chief Whip and the Minister, Deputy Cowen, pressure was put on the civil servant——

Mr. Cowen

That is an untruth. I have not spoken with the Taoiseach or the Chief Whip since I was in this House.

Miss Harney

That was improper interference and the Minister was aware of what was happening.

Mr. Cowen

I was not aware of it.

Miss Harney

The Minister is accountable.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am coming now to the Order of Business proper.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

If this disorder continues I will have no option but to adjourn our proceedings for a considerable period. I call Deputy De Rossa and I hope he will help the Chair by raising a matter appropriate to the Order of Business.

Deputy De Rossa rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am trying to maintain order.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Harney has made a very serious accusation across the floor of the House saying that Deputy Cowen and I had a meeting with a civil servant to put pressure on him, if I heard her correctly. If she did not say that——

Miss Harney

I did not say——

Mr. Cowen

The Deputy said there was a meeting.

The Taoiseach

There was no meeting between Deputy Cowen, myself and the civil servant. I had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Mr. Cowen

It never happened.

The Taoiseach

There was no meeting with the Minister, Deputy Cowen, with or without the civil servant, to put pressure on anybody to interfere with the planning process. There was no meeting whatsoever. Withdraw the allegation.

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot permit the debate.

Mr. Cowen

If the Deputy is hoping for votes in Cork, is that the best she can come up with? I know the game she is playing.

Miss Harney

I know the game the Minister is playing.

(Interruptions.)

Miss Harney

Tell us why it happened.

Mrs. Owen

The Minister is hiding behind civil servants.

An Ceann Comhairle

The interruptions should cease on both sides of the House. Deputy De Rossa, please.

Proinsias De Rossa

There is no doubt whatsoever that serious damage has been done to the credibility of the planning process as a result——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is embarking on a statement which is not in order.

Proinsias De Rossa

——of actions taken by the Minister's Department.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am proceeding now to the Order of Business proper.

Proinsias De Rossa

You have not heard me out.

An Ceann Comhairle

You have made your statement. Deputy, which is not in order.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am entitled to speak in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, in strict accordance with its procedures which you laid down as Members.

Proinsias De Rossa

I intend to comply with them if you will give me a hearing.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us hear it.

Proinsias De Rossa

Thank you. I pointed out that serious damage has been done to the credibility of the planning process as a result of actions taken——

An Ceann Comhairle

I fail to see what this has to do with the Order of Business.

Proinsias De Rossa

——either by the minister, his secretary or his assistant secretary.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is flouting the ruling of the Chair. Is there any other legitimate——

Proinsias De Rossa

How does the Minister intend to restore credibility by making a claim——

Mr. Cowen

Will the Deputy stop casting aspersions on their integrity as he did all day yesterday?

An Ceann Comhairle

That has nothing to do with the Order of Business.

Mr. Cowen

I was never involved in the planning process.

Miss Harney

Did the Minister speak with the Secretary?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am proceeding now to item No. 3. I will have no more of this disorder.

Miss Harney

Did the Minister speak with the Secretary of his Department?

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Hogan

This is a very serious matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are procedures laid down in this House for dealing with this matter but not now.

Mr. Hogan

The integrity of the planning process is at stake and that is a serious matter. A slur has been cast on my integrity by the Minister and I am seeking——

Mr. N. Treacy

The Deputy is the one who has called into question the integrity of Kilkenny County Council.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is proceeding to raise the same issue.

Mr. Hogan

Will the Taoiseach bring forward a token Estimate for the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications to enable the House to discuss this matter?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a matter for the Taoiseach.

Mr. Hogan

In view of the fact that new information was released last evening by a civil servant in the Department will you allow a Private Notice Question on the matter?

An Ceann Comhairle

I do——

Mr. Hogan

Will you give it careful consideration?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a hypothetical question. Deputy Rabbitte, I want very much to get off this subject which is quite out of order. I trust you will facilitate me.

Mr. Rabbitte

You have communicated that very clearly, Sir. Is the Taoiseach concerned about the fact that twice in recent months it has come to light that material alterations have been made by officials to documents of import?

An Ceann Comhairle

What has this to do with the Order of Business?

Mr. Rabbitte

It has to do with the order of public affairs.

An Ceann Comhairle

Perhaps so. Doubtless the Deputy will have an opportunity to ventilate his views on that matter.

Mr. Rabbitte

Is the Taoiseach concerned having regard to the fact that he was the victim himself, as he presented it in the beef tribunal, of an official altering documents that could have avoided——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy Rabbitte. This is quite out of order.

Mr. Cowen

The Deputy blamed the Revenue Commissioners in the wrong and now he is accusing my civil servants.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling Deputy Gay Mitchell to move his Bill.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Yesterday the Minister made a statement which does not stand up. The same happened at Question Time on Tuesday when the Minister for Justice answered questions. I have already written to you about it. Will the Taoiseach bring forward an Estimate for the Houses of the Oireachtas so that the continual misleading of this House can be dealt with?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not make an allegation of that kind without the fullest consideration and fairness being self-evident.

Mr. G. Mitchell

I am asking that that Estimate be brought forward because Ministers are misleading the House with all sorts of twisted——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have to say also that I received no communication from you whatsoever on the subject. I am calling Deputy O'Malley.

The Taoiseach

The Opposition have plenty of opportunities to have any of those matters discussed. They have Private Members' Business next week, they have questions and they have the opportunity to table Private Notice Questions. Also they can put down a substantive motion if they believe in what they are saying. Of course, they do not believe in what they are saying. They just want to keep it going for the duration of the Cork by-election. That is the ultimate objective.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Then will we get answers.

Mr. O'Malley

I draw your attention to the provisions of Article 28.4.1º of the Constitution which states:

The Government shall be responsible to Dáil Éireann. The Government shall meet and act as a collective authority and shall be collectively responsible for the Departments of State administered by the members of the Government.

Do you consider, Sir, that that Article is complied with when a Minister refuses to answer questions in the House but at 8 p.m. wheels out a civil servant to answer questions to a limited number of members of the press?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not the function of the Chair to interpret the Constitution.

Mr. O'Malley

It is one of the duties of the Chair, I submit, to support the Constitution and to vindicate the rights of the people under it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Malley must find another time to ventilate his views on that subject. It is not in order now.

Mr. O'Malley

Can I take it that my interpretation of the Constitution in your view is right?

Mr. N. Treacy

The Deputy should check that with the Deputy beside him.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will not be cross-examined by the Deputy. I have always adhered to the Constitution and I would ask the Deputy to adhere to the rules of the House and desist.

Mr. O'Malley

I hope that it is not the result of this that you are prepared to deny the validity of these provisions and allow them to be circumvented in which they have been.

A Deputy

That is disgraceful.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's allegations are so absurd that I treat them with contempt.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling Deputy McCormack.

Mr. O'Malley

It is questionable whether the provisions of the Constitution itself can be treated with contempt.

An Ceann Comhairle

You are completely out of order, Deputy.

Mr. McCormack

In view of the fact that the gate was closed when the horse had bolted twice in the past week may I put a question to the Taoiseach, in regard to promised legislation — the Ethics in Public Office Bill and the Electoral Bill — in the form of a limerick?

An Ceann Comhairle

A little light relief would be welcome, Deputy.

Mr. McCormack

If the Tánaiste's hand was in command. Would Cowengate on the backbenches wait to reinvest his grand?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am coming now to item No. 3.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Currie

Not bad for a——

Mr. Cowen

At least it rhymes.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am proceeding to item No. 3.

Mr. Cowen

How about a response to the limerick?

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Rabbitte

Could we have an opinion from the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht on that?

Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht (Mr. M. Higgins)

It is one of those that hits you late.