If it is agreed, I propose to share my time with Deputy Sargent.
Heritage Council Bill, 1994 [ Seanad ]: Second Stage (Resumed).
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
I am sure that is satisfactory and agreed.
The Heritage Council Bill is important but, unfortunately, because of commitments to the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation I will be unable to address some issues in great detail.
When we talk about heritage it is important to bear in mind that it is not simply a question of bequeathing without question what we inherit from the past. As reflected in the need to establish the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation, much of our history is taken without question and delivered to us in an unquestioning manner. While I acknowledge that this Bill is not directly concerned with the teaching of history, that aspect of our heritage should be the subject of much questioning and must be dealt with in our schools and other fora in a manner which ensures that children and adults are conscious of the fact that there is more than one interpretation of history and heritage.
Heritage centres tend to deliver a bland blancmange style interpretation of the past and the Office of Public Works tends to be the worst offender in delivering that type of interpretation in their interpretative centres. We must ensure that alternative views are provided through those centres. In interpreting history one must be careful that all aspects are taken into account and it is not done in such a way that gives credence to one political view.
A major ongoing debate in history relates to revisionism. Revisionists tends to be accused of many things. It is implied that they distort history, whereas by and large they attempt to reinterpret it in a new way, apart from what might be regarded as the official interpretation. That debate will continue and the longer it goes on the better, provided it is carried on with a degree of honesty.
I know the Minister is conscious of the commercialisation of heritage which inevitably will lead to a blancmange type heritage presentation. The need to present a happy-go-lucky image of the Irish, the storytellers, men and women without any cares and so on, is important for the tourism trade, but it would be more useful if we presented ourselves warts and all, as opposed to a green, shamrock type presentation.
At a time when reconciliation on this island is paramount, it is salutary to reflect that last year Sir Edward Carson's birthplace was under threat of demolition. It was saved only be a concerted effort mounted by An Taisce and concerned individuals. This Bill would have done nothing to protect that building, nor would it have protected the thousands of buildings which have fallen victim to neglect, commercial demolition or architectural vandalism over the past three decades. While the Minister indicated that he intends to deal with this problem in a separate Bill, the matter should have been dealt with in this Bill.
The threat to Edward Carson's birthplace made the news, but what about all the other buildings under threat in Dublin and elsewhere, for example, St. Helen's House in Booterstown, the historic church of St. Michael and St. John in Temple Bar which may be gutted to make way for yet another heritage centre, and the EU-funded Viking Centre project? Our heritage is being sacrificed in the interests of erecting so called heritage centres, a misnomer in the way they are organised.
In the unequal battle between the needs of our heritage and the demands of developers, heritage loses out every time and will continue to lose out following the enactment of this legislation. The Bill is a perfect example of the quangoism which has pervaded the Government since it entered office. At first glance the powers of the council appear impressive, especially in relation to sites owned by a public authority. Section 10 (3) states that where the council has advised against a proposal, the public authority shall not commence work on the proposal,
...unless
(a) the Minister agrees to the proposal, or
(b) the Minister agrees to a modified form of the proposal, or
(c) the Government agrees to the proposal.
Once again, the fate of Ireland's environment, particularly our built environment is being left in the uncertain hands of Ministers who can change from time to time and, indeed, whose views may change from time to time.
One of the most serious deficiencies of the Bill is the explicit prohibition on the council holding land. This means the council cannot purchase land or buildings under threat. What can the council do under the terms of the Bill? In essence, it can make recommendations, but when one considers the volume of recommendations from statutory and voluntary bodies buried in the dust on successive Ministers' shelves, that power is less than impressive. In the final analysis the Heritage Council will be able to delay but not prevent destruction. The built environment has been ill-served by successive Governments. The scant legislation in existence remains largely unimplemented.
In 1990 the Oireachtas passed the Derelict Sites Act which provided for stiff penalties to be levied on the owners of derelict sites. Derelict sites can be acquired compulsorily by a local authority and owners in contravention of the provisions of the Act are subjected to fines of up to £25,000 or, in one case, £2,000 for every day during which they are in contravention of those provisions. This is precisely the kind of draconian legislation needed to preserve what remains of our towns and cities. However, a quick drive through the streets of Dublin, Cork or Limerick will confirm the non-implementation of the provisions of this Act, as derelict sites deface many areas. Dublin's quays are, or were, lined with 17th and 18th century buildings, many of considerable architectural merit and historical interest. Yet the only bodies committed to their preservation in the face of substantial commercial pressure are An Taisce and the Dublin Civic Forum. Unless the provisions of the Bill are considerably strengthened our national heritage will continue to be frittered away in the never-ending search for a quick buck.
I appreciate that in my short contribution I have addressed one aspect only of heritage, the built environment. I am aware that the Minister gave an undertaking after the Seanad debate that he would introduce another Bill to deal with that area. When replying perhaps he would inform the House when it is intended to introduce that Bill. He mentioned it being a complex area, one warranting a lot of thought and consideration. While he may well be right, I am sure he will admit there is an urgency about the matter.
I mentioned a quotation I wanted to put on the record from President Robinson when she wrote a preface to a book entitled The Great Irish Famine by Stephen J. Campbell — words and images from the Famine Museum, Strokestown Park, County Roscommon. It relates to an exhibition on the Famine on display in Strokestown Park, County Roscommon, not an Office of Public Works event or location, rather a privately-owned and managed museum. What is interesting about it is that it achieves what the Office of Public Works unfortunately does not. It does not present merely a sort of homogenised view of the Famine but offers some alternative views and obliges people who visit the exhibition to think about the issues being presented to them and is successful as a result. It is worthwhile putting on the record the preface written by President Robinson to this book:
Every country is quick to make a record of its triumphs. Most cultures are rich in the lore and anecdote which celebrate heroism and strength. Reading through this book, it strikes me how important it is to make a record of a darker past as well. There are grim statistics and painful details here. They give an account of a terrible time; they illuminate the defenceless suffering of the Irish people at that time. But they serve another purpose as well: they invite us to look steadily at a past we can neither share nor change. With all its pain and disorder, the past has constructed us in the actual and literal ways of generation and inheritance. Now, if we look at it thoughtfully and clearly, and with the factual assistance of this book and the Famine Museum, that past has the power to do something more: it can construct and strengthen our understanding and our sympathy in the present.
More than anything else, this Famine Museum shows us that history is not about power and triumph nearly so often as it is about suffering and vulnerability. Those who have worked on this book and who have developed the project of this museum have done us all a true service: while these things demonstrate that the Famine is a central part of our past, that it is a motif of powerlessness which runs through our national consciousness, it is also a human drama upon which we, as Irish people, place an enormous value, and by which we have been radically instructed. As we go through the Famine Museum we have to wonder again and again at the strength of a people who could survive natural disaster and historic setback.
As we look at these artefacts and open our minds to these stories, we can feel again that it is an Irish strength to celebrate the people in our past, not for power, not for victory, but for the profound dignity of human survival. We can honour that survival best, it seems to me, by taking our folk-memory of this catastrophe into the present world with us, and allowing it to strengthen and deepen our identity with those who are still suffering.
It is a view of how we can use our heritage as a means of informing ourselves, of looking at our society today, how we can, as the President says, show our solidarity with those who are still suffering.
Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta De Rossa as ucht a chuid ama a roinnt liom. Tá áthas orm bheith páirteach sa díospóireacht seo.
The National Heritage Council is on my mind this morning because, regardless of whether it is proper to draw the analogy, its objectives appear somewhat similar to those of the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation vis-à-vis the conflict in Northern Ireland. If The National Heritage Council is to achieve its objectives it needs to be borne in mind that, in this case, the Government has turned from being the vandal into the guardian of heritage. Perhaps the Government needs to acknowledge its failings also if we are to believe that it is on the road to Damascus and that this council will become a reality, as claimed. I worry when I hear the Government claim that it has always been a wonderful protector of our heritage and needs merely to continue to be that protector, particularly when I think of the Civic Offices, Agriculture House and the inherent problem of the built environment there, not to mention the interpretative centres. The Minister will be all too aware of that sorry saga. Bearing such matters in mind we clearly realise that The National Heritage Council will need to change a number of minds within Government if it is to be successful in protecting our heritage.
I welcome any Bill that proposes to put in place a programme to safeguard the destruction of valuable and irreplaceable features of our heritage, natural or man made, since they are all equally irreplaceable when it comes to saving them for future generations. I sound a note of caution that the provisions of this Bill should not be presented or interpreted as a panacea for all our ills. When I observe the number of legislative measures in place and the types of protection claimed to be in place, I question the benefit of creating yet another layer of protection when we do not appear to have properly resourced or implemented commitments already given, of which there are numerous examples which would cause one to be very wary about another addition to the litany of pledges to protect our environment. Given a choice, I would prefer to see those commitments honoured, implemented and properly resourced rather than veering off in another direction to create a new body which may cause people to be over-confident while many tasks remain to be tackled.
I might instance the slow progress in putting in place arrangements to designate national heritage areas, a commitment already given. I am aware that a number of conservation bodies are very frustrated at the slow progress being made to introduce the requisite protective legislation and arrangements to have those national heritage areas properly designated and protected. As long as we remain in this limbo of anticipation many areas will continue to be at risk. This council is not the cure for that problem because it is forbidden to own land. It can only do so much, even though it is well intentioned. If this legislation is to have credibility, that must be addressed. In my own constituency there is an area which is at great risk not from private individuals but from the State sector in the form of the local authority. I refer to Rogerstown estuary, an area that is crossed by the Dublin-Belfast railway line. One part of the estuary is designated an internationally renowned Ramsar site for the protection of wildlife while the inner part of the estuary, because the railway goes through the middle, is not considered as worthy of protection, even though the bird life and wildlife in general is not at all aware that there is any difference between the mud flat on the inner side of the railway and that on the outer side and use both. For reasons best understood by humans, and certain humans at that, we have decided not to protect the inner part of the estuary and instead continue to allow it to be used as a municipal landfill site. There is a need for objective analysis of the long term effects of continuing to operate that policy in that area. Not allowing ownership of land weakens the potential of the Heritage Council to protect heritage under its terms of reference.
There are dangers in other areas from certain planning applications for quarries near, for example, a lake which is in itself a wildlife sanctuary. These things are not properly taken into account when considering planning applications. Perhaps the Heritage Council will play some role in liaising with the planning authority. I understand the Minister would want that and I accept his good faith.
It is in the text of the Bill.
I understand that. I am talking about its implementation and how that is to be effected. That is what we are here to discuss.
I put it in the Bill in order to implement it.
Something the Minister might comment on is the Wildlife Act, 1976 which is long overdue for revision because there are a number of EU directives begging to be transposed into Irish law. The habitat directive is particularly relevant under the terms of the Heritage Council and it is unfortunate and a criminal scandal that following the Private Members' Bill introduced by Deputy Gregory wildlife is still legitimately terrorised with the blessing of the majority in this House. Only yesterday I received a message from a constituent pleading that something be done to prevent marauding men, both young and old, from traipsing across land in north county Dublin in hot pursuit of live quarry for their sport on the coursing field. This has nothing to do with using wildlife as food, as Deputy De Rossa said in mentioning the famine museum. This is done simply for sport. That is objectionable and I would like it addressed in legislation.
I realise that the REP scheme is the responsibility of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry. Farmers have been slow to take up this European scheme. Even though there is an increased take up, one of the major failings is that there is no monitoring of it. It is important to mention it in this debate, even though it is the Minister for Agriculture who will have most of the responsibility for implementing it. Collective responsibility in Cabinet might be relevant in that the Minister could speak to the Minister for Agriculture about it. There is a five year budget for the REP scheme of £230 million. With that money it should be possible to establish proper monitoring of the effects of these pre-environment measures. It is one thing to declare that measures are being put in place to protect the environment but those of us who are familiar with PR companies and the ability of advertising to present a message know that aspirations to protect the environment do not always translate into reality. Proper monitoring will ensure that such aspirations do translate into reality.
The main thrust of this Heritage Council seems to be in the built environment and there is much to be done in that area. I wonder if the council will be capable of dealing with some of the situations that have come to my attention. In my own town of Balbriggan, the oldest thatched house, Braemor Cottage, was one of the major attractions for visitors. However, last Easter the house, being up for sale but still being minded, was torched. It is now roofless and in a serious state of disrepair but not totally destroyed. However, it is being destroyed by neglect and there seems to be no measure in law to allow the local authority or the State to intervene, as it tries to do in other areas. The owner is now in England. The local authority will not become involved, even though that building is of a type that is fast disappearing. It is letting in rain this morning and its mud walls are disintegrating. To put plastic on top of its exposed walls would be to break the law because the owner has not given permission to do that. With the best will in the world one could not protect that building without trespassing. Serious thought must be given to introducing measures to deal with that kind of situation. There are many examples now since we are in the European Union where the ownership of these buildings is outside the State. It is regrettable and tragic that something might happen which would damage a building and the owner might not be contactable.
Will the Minister indicate if The Heritage Council will have a role in the planning process which would relate, for example, to the Phoenix Park Racecourse, a heritage site at least in terms of its history, as a first class racing site? Acceptance of a proposal for a casino and large hotel complex, not in line with the zoning in the area, would put an end to any question of racing there again. Will the Heritage Council take note of the wider implications of developments and not consider buildings and sites in a narrow context but take account of the overall national heritage value of each area of interest in the wider context of how we hand on our heritage to the next generation? I welcome the Bill, but urge the Minister to have regard to existing legislation and the perception among non governmental organisations that the legislation is fine on paper but that it has not been properly resourced to protect the aspects of our heritage it was designed to protect. Go raibh maith agat.
I welcome the Bill which is necessary to strengthen the existing council. Deputy Sargent referred to people traipsing across land in chase of live quarry. I am reminded of the debate on the Occupiers' Liability Bill introduced by the Minister's colleague. Many significant dolmens, castles, abbeys, etc., are situated on farm land and farmers and landowners are nervous about people crossing their land. Farmers, generally, welcome visitors to heritage sites on their land, but farmers' interests must be protected from potential public liability claims. The proposed Occupier's Liability Bill, closely related to this Bill, must be seen to be fair. The Minister should consult with the Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Taylor, to ensure that in promoting and protecting our heritage, landowners must be protected against public liability claims from people of all ages. It has been suggested that landowners will be liable in respect of injuries suffered on their property by people under 18. If farmers' interests are not protected they will prevent people crossing their land, which will defeat the purpose of this Bill on which the issue of occupiers liability has an enormous bearing.
In considering the national heritage we must reflect on the position to date. Because of the neglect and hostility of successive Government anything we do now is too little too late. More damage has been done to the fabric of our heritage since the foundation of the State than during the Viking invasions. The treatment of our national heritage since 1922 has been marked by negligence, ignorance and, in some instances, outright hostility.
This Government by establishing the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht is the first to put heritage at the top of political agenda. I compliment the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Higgins, for the enthusiasm he has brought to his task. The work to be done is not only the physical work with bricks and mortar but also involves changing attitudes. In recent years our attitude to our diverse heritage has changed for the better. We are beginning to realise that our heritage is not one sided or simple. Thatched cottages and castles alike are intrinsic to the fabric of our past. Equally, the heritage and houses of the ascendancy, such as Dunmain House, are to be valued with the inheritance of the Gael. It is perhaps due to the interest of the planning authorities in County Wexford to retain a living heritage that the inhabited delightful thatched cottages in Kilmore Quay are being protected. The planning authorities refused to allow slates or tiles to replace the thatch and Wexford County Council introduced a thatching grant scheme long before the national grant scheme was introduced. I am pleased the Government included thatching grants in that scheme to assist people to retain the beauties of our countryside. The heritage associated with houses of the ascendancy, such as Dunmain House, must be valued also.
Last year in my parish of Fethard-on-Sea — a famous area from where the Ceann Comhairle's mother came——
A very famous place.
——something happened which I believe symbolised or changed the attitude to our culture and indicated the best possible role the Heritage Council could play. The local Church of Ireland, St. Mogues, was in desperate need of repair. It is a small stone and slate building dating from the 13th century. Originally it would have been a place of worship for the Christian community of Fethard-on-Sea. The Church of Ireland community, though very small, is vigorous. That church, through the fund-raising efforts of its parishioners, with the enthusiastic support of the local GAA club and the help of the National Heritage Council, has been restored. The local GAA club and the Church of Ireland community — some people might say they are strange bedfellows — came together in a fund-raising campaign to restore the church. That is even more remarkable considering that 35 years ago Fethard-on-Sea was the scene of the infamous boycott. Things and times have changed for the better. This legislation is part of a process of realising how much time and neglect we have to make up for.
Our collective attitude to our culture has improved because a small group of people refused to accept the prevailing attitude of ignorance. A huge debt is owed to groups such as An Taisce, the Irish Georgian Society and countless local groups. A local group of people, without assistance and often in the face of a great deal of hostility, persisted in the ideal of preserving our heritage. It is still remembered, I hope with a good deal of embarrassment, that those who tried to save the outstanding Georgian building in Ely Place were dismissed as the blue rinse brigade. Equally, I hope that Deputy Molloy's attitude then does not reflect the Progressive Democrats' attitude now.
Times have changed.
This Bill aims to give teeth to the National Heritage Council. Previously, the council was not on a statutory footing and was under-staffed and under-funded. I wish the new, rejuvenated council well in its important work.
One of the areas not covered in the Bill are buildings in private hands, Public authorities are increasingly, if not always, responsible in their attitude towards heritage. I compliment the local authority in my area. Wexford County Council, who in successive years made grants, albeit small, to various sites of heritage significance. It is responsive to an increasingly responsible mood of public opinion. No such claim can be made for the private sector and the Minister, Deputy Higgins, admitted his uneasiness with this position. I stand four square behind him on this issue and ask him to take action. Short-term private profit cannot be allowed to continue to destroy our heritage and heritage lost can never be recovered. I ask the Minister to outline his plans in this area.
Many of our finest buildings and works of heritage are in private hands. Ownership involves duties as well as rights and we must act now to prevent further destruction before it is too late.
One of the principal private owners if not the main one, are the Churches. I fully realise the difficulties involved in the State exercising control over the Churches in the arrangements of their buildings. However, the interiors of our churches are one of the most important parts of our heritage. There is a great deal of public disquiet about how the Catholic Church in particular is discharging its function, particularly since Vatican II.
Recently the Victoria and Albert Museum in London staged a massively successful exhibition of the work and life of Pugin, the early 19th century architect who pioneered the neo-gothic revival. His most famous monument is the Palace of Westminster. He was a Catholic who devoted most of his working life to the building of Catholic churches. Some of the finest examples of his work are to be found in Ireland, mainly in County Wexford. As hundreds of thousands of people from around the world went to the Victoria and Albert in London to view his work, I was embarrassed at the state of the Pugin buildings in Ireland. Of his many works in Wexford — the churches at Gorey and Tagoat, the chapel at St. Peter's College and the church at Ramsgrange among others — not one remains intact. The magnificent neo-gothic high altars and sanctuaries have been torn out and thrown out in the name of liturgical renewal. White collar crime is what I call what has happened in our churches since Vatican II.
The State cannot order affairs in the churches and it would be improper to even think of doing so. We should, however, be prepared to help preserve, by way of money and logical support, what is left of our ecclesiastical heritage. We should not hesitate to clearly call on the leaders of all Churches to act in a responsible way towards the buildings in their possession. These buildings were built and paid for by the people. Just as Church leaders do not hesitate to speak forcefully to politicians, on this issue we should not hesitate to speak forcefully to them.
However, there are clergy and religious in my county who have in some instances gone beyond their remit to protect our heritage and they too are owed a great debt of gratitude. I refer to a curate, Fr. Richard Hayes, who protected one of the churches of penal times at Poulfur near my area. The decision was made locally that the church should be knocked down and replaced. However, against the wishes of the locals Fr. Hayes decided to retain it. To this day he is thanked for doing so, and I am sure generations to come will thank him for his foresight and persistence in this regard.
My immediate area of south-west Wexford is one of the richest cultural areas in the country. It has been said that the history of Ireland can be written around the ruins of south-west Wexford because there is a monument to every era of history in that locality. For some reason — maybe it is because we are nice people — the invader seemed to think that this was the place to land, whether it be in Baginbun, Bannow Bay, the Hook Peninsula, Duncannon or New Ross, all of which are full of monuments to our varied and rich past.
I and my constituents have no shortage of projects to which the new Heritage Council could devote itself.
I wish to refer briefly to the National Heritage Park at Wexford. This park was the brainchild of Noel Dillon, now working in County Cork, a former county manager of Wexford County Council. Land laid waste by building a new road was turned into the National Heritage Park, with 16 sites going back to 5000 BC, which boasts 100,000 visitors a year. It has been said that school children learn more here about history in four hours than they do in all their years in school. My own locality of south west Wexford is a natural heritage park.
I wish to refer to the Hook lighthouse, the oldest in Europe, which is now being demanned by the Commissioners for Irish Lights. It is vital that this monument be maintained. In that area men have used fire since the seventh century to warn shipping.
And bonfires when the Deputy was returned to the Dáil.
I have to thank the people of County Mayo for supporting the people of County Wexford when required in 1798. The Hook lighthouse was built in the 11th century and since then many lives have been saved. From 1996 there will be no human presence in the lighthouse unless support is forthcoming to maintain it in the interests of our heritage and safety.
I now wish to refer to Duncannon Fort from which King James fled to France after the Battle of the Boyne and where the young Oliver Plunkett served mass during the confederacy of Kilkenny. A local development group has taken over the fort from the Department of Defence.
The worth of the National Heritage Council will depend on its capacity to help local initiatives to avoid bureaucracy and red tape. I am referring here to projects such as Dunbrody Abbey; Fethard castle; Ballyhack castle which has been restored by the partnership in south west Wexford; Tintern Abbey which is in the hands of the Office of Public Works; Baginbun where the Normans landed in 1170 — some say they were our best tourists because they are still here; Clonmines; Loftus Hall about which a video was made recently and Slade Castle. Local groups intend to restore each of these for tourism purposes.
The single most important project in County Wexford is the John F. Kennedy Trust in New Ross. This trust, by establishing itself as a centre of excellence in emigration studies, will commemorate our people, the finest part of our heritage. As Members will be aware, John F. Kennedy's forefathers left from the quayside in New Ross in 1849 following the Famine. As the Minister stressed in his remarks, the trust will make an economic contribution in the locality. It aims to give people a reason to stop and stay in New Ross. We are conscious of the fact that 1.5 million people pass through New Ross on their way to the west each year and return via the same route. It is our intention to try to encourage them to stay and enjoy the heritage that is County Wexford.
The trust's media exhibits will attract casual tourists. More importantly, by its possession of the most thorough data base, it will establish itself as a centre of research. The board and management of the trust have been vigorous in establishing links with institutes abroad to ensure it has access to research data. The future of the trust will depend on its forthcoming application for funds to the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht. I thank the Minister, Deputy Higgins, for his encouragement of this project to date. New Ross, which has a high unemployment rate, is eagerly looking forward to getting the green light for this culturally and economically exciting project.
Localities throughout the country will benefit under this Bill. The National Heritage Council has a vital economic and cultural role to play. The measures being provided for will better equip the council to fulfil its role.
It was my hope to refer to Duncannon Fort in more detail but the time available to me——
The Deputy has a further eight minutes.
I will therefore take the Members of the House on a tour of Duncannon Fort.
Sail on regardless.
The Deputy is doing well. He has given a marvellous description of County Wexford.
The Minister is now about to be invited to Duncannon Fort.
I thank the Deputy.
This fort is of tremendous historical significance. A local trust was established in 1993 and for better or worse I was asked to be its chairman. This trust is comprised of representatives of Wexford County Council, the local partnership which is doing an excellent job in the protection of our heritage and a strong local heritage group. Its aims are to develop the fort for tourism purposes by the restoration of the ancient features of the fort and developing and using building for various productive purposes. It is hoped that this will generate income for the trust on the one hand and have a beneficial spin-off for the community in south west Wexford.
The Department of Defence used to own Duncannon Fort when it was used as a summer base for approximately 100 Army personnel. This provided a tremendous economic boost to Duncannon village. When the Army decided to pull out there was a vacuum, financially and otherwise. It is the intention of the trust to restore Duncannon Fort as the hub of economic activity in south west Wexford, particularly for the village of Duncannon.
The initial phase involved a major clean up programme to restore the moat to its original condition. This has been successfully completed with substantial works and improvements to the ramparts, ravelin, bridge and sallyports. Security fencing has been provided as well as toilet facilities. The officers building has been improved and it is now usable for exhibitions, displays, concerts and a meeting room. Moves are afoot to improve the recreation hall and the standard of accommodation available. As a consequence it may become a base for the Civil Defence. Tours were provided regularly at the fort throughout the summer and in the first year we attracted some 5,000 paying visitors. Our success will encourage us to continue providing tours throughout the year. We have made progress in tourism and we seem to be moving in the right direction.
The social employment scheme has played a major role in the development of the fort and the monetary value of work carried out under this scheme is well in excess of £100,000. Under the Leader programme, work costing £24,000 was carried out in 1993 and Wexford County Council has given grants totalling £13,000 over the past three years. This has enabled the trust to invest locally when sourcing labour and materials. Two local people and six third level students from south west Wexford were able to supplement their incomes through summer employment at the fort.
The grounds and recreational hall have been utilised on a small scale for fund raising events and other activities. We have made progress but we need to develop further and actively promote tourism at the fort. We need to develop the fort as a centre of vibrant activity and not as a sterile museum that is old and finished.
Our heritage can provide an economic boost. The economic benefit of protecting our heritage has to be viewed in parallel and I ask the Minister to take this on board.
I wish to share my time with Deputy Gregory.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
This very important Bill will become increasingly relevant as time goes by. Deputy Hugh Byrne made a first class contribution which would do justice to a public relations manager selling the attractions of County Wexford. Members from all parties are knowledgeable about their individual areas and it would be a pity if they did not contribute to this debate because when the Heritage Council trawls through the Official Report it will be able to deal with the matters of importance which have national implications.
People throughout the country welcome the appointment of Deputy Michael Higgins as Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht. He brings a different vision to art, culture and heritage and his efforts to preserve and promote an appreciation of our heritage should be assisted. The functions given to the National Heritage Council on its establishment in 1988 were broad ranging: to identify, protect, preserve, enhance and increase awareness of Ireland's heritage in the specific areas of archaeology, architecture, flora and fauna, landscape, heritage gardens and inland waterways; to promote among the general public an interest and pride in our heritage and to facilitate the appreciation and enjoyment of it; to work closely and make recommendations to Government Departments, planning authorities, public bodies and State companies on all matters within the council's general area of responsibility; to ensure the co-ordination of all activities in the heritage field; to decide on the distribution of moneys allocated for heritage work subject to the approval of the Minister and to decide on the priorities for such expenditure. These broad-ranging functions apply to every square inch of the country because the physical landscape is there for everybody to appreciate. Deputy Byrne referred to the Occupiers Liability Bill which is due to be discussed after the by-elections and the Minister will appreciate that this is a matter of genuine concern to thousands of people. The land is held in trust for future generations. Given that people may have an accident or cause an accident when walking over other people's property and may for the flimsiest of excuses seek compensation, this will have to be addressed on Committee Stage and the Minister must take on board the genuine concerns of landowners when people are going to or coming from heritage buildings.
This Bill establishes a body to be known as An Chomhairle Oidhreachta and in the Irish language title of the council we have a more complete description and a fundamental understanding of what is involved. The Minister intends to introduce Bills for the National Library and the National Museum and I hope this is done in conjunction with the proposals of the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach to build new library facilities for the Oireachtas. I understand that the new facilities in the Oireachtas Library will be linked to the National Library. The wealth of information in the vaults of this House and the National Library should be made available to the population at large.
We need to encourage an appreciation of the environment in our schools at primary and secondary levels. One only has to travel through any town after a busy weekend to see the state of the streets. The amount of rubbish thrown away by Irish people leaves a great deal to be desired. The litter problem can be addressed only by the good example of peers and elders and there should be a programme in primary and secondary schools to make school children aware of their environment and their heritage. It is impossible to appreciate our built heritage and natural environment if we continue with our flippant attitude to the disposal of litter and unwanted items. That is not good for the country in terms of our promoting it as one of the cleanest and greenest in Europe.
The Minister's reference to realism in the implementation of the Bill is important also because Bord na Gaeilge is doing an excellent job in promoting an appreciation of our language. The other areas referred to by him in terms of culture and art are important also.
Ideas abound in every part of the country for the promotion and preservation of our natural heritage. Dr. Séamus Caulfield, together with his late father, came up with the idea to develop the Céide Fields west of Ballycastle. That is the oldest known stone village civilisation in the world and while the initial projections were for approximately 10,000 visitors per year, there have been over 70,000 since its excavation. Credit should be given also to the former Taoiseach, Charles Haughey, who had a particular interest in the preservation of our heritage. During a visit to the area he made a personal commitment to provide funding which was forthcoming.
In reference to the Minister's description of economic development as a spin off from the preservation of our heritage, the only flaw I see in that proposal is that if an area such as the Céide Fields is developed, visitors are brought in on tour buses which leave on the same day. In that event the possible economic benefit to the general locality is lost. We must remember that one of the aspects of the Bill is the need to sustain economic development in any area.
If one stands on the hill overlooking the Céide Fields one can see a pyramid shaped modern building. One can see its concept and design and take into account that every step represents 100 years. It is interesting to listen to the very realistic descriptions given by the guides, including Dr. Caulfield, which helps one to understand that people inhabited this country over 5,000 years ago. That type of development is fundamental to us and the more opportunities we have to understand and appreciate that, the better we will be as a people. I would like the new Heritage Council to become involved in this type of development and identify future developments, including the preservation of buildings, which can proceed within the economic process referred to by the Minister, in conjunction with the other agencies. The development of the Céide Fields went ahead without an objection of any magnitude and was generally accepted by all organisations and people in the locality. I hope that development will stand the test of time.
The Minister referred to the abolition of the Wildlife Advisory Council and the National Monuments Council whose remit will be covered by the new Heritage Council. Section 13 (2) of the Wildlife Act, 1976 dealt with policy recommendations on flora, fauna, inland waterways and so on from the Wildlife Advisory Council. Along the west coast, for example, there has been a serious problem for the past 15 years in particular with migrating seals. Fishermen using half deck trawlers have an enormous task, given the limitations on their drift net fishing for salmon, in dealing with rogue seals who literally steal their livelihood.
This problem was highlighted some years ago when unofficial seal culling took place. I understand the majority of these seals migrate here from northern Scotland and the coast of England and that, under European law, the country within whose jurisdiction these animals normally breed is responsible for them. There have been demands for official culls and something must be done to put an end to this problem. I am not sure whether the Minister or any of his staff have stood on one of these boats and patrolled a net for salmon which may be invaded by a rogue seal. It is an interesting experience and if the fishermen are unable to deal with the fish caught in their nets within minutes, they lose them. While the Wildlife Advisory Council is to be absorbed into the Heritage Council there remains a clear need for specific policy recommendations to the Minister so that action can be taken and unofficial culls will cease.
In my county, the implementation of social employment or FAS schemes has been of benefit in terms of preservating and reconstructing old buildings including improving old cemeteries. Where these schemes are properly implemented in conjunction with the local authority an excellent job can be done. It is interesting to note that the fastest growing area of tourism is genealogy. A great number of inquiries are received from the United States and Australia from people endeavouring to trace their roots.
The Deputy should not forget Longford Courthouse.
I do not know whether that will be preserved as a heritage building but that is beside the point. In Ambassador O'Rourke's house in Copenhagen this summer I read O'Kelly's Directory of 1904 which deals with the townlands of Ireland. It provided an incredible amount of social history and provides detail on buildings that are now 90 years older. So much could be preserved, but the funding made available to this council will not be sufficient for this purpose.
Ballintubber Abbey in County Mayo has been in continuous use since 1210. President Robinson opened a newly reconstructed section of the Abbey recently. It is a magnificant edifice which has been in use longer than Westminster Abbey. Masses have been celebrated through the period of the Reformation, the Famine and so on and such detail, properly illustrated would give young people a deeper appreciation of their culture and heritage.
We should preserve the physical landscape and our archaeology. There is an old cemetery known as Carne Cemetery on the north coast of Mayo where due to coastal erosion the sea wall has been breached for the last number of years and the remains of people long deceased have been literally washed away by the sea. The same applies in the old famine cemetery at Killadoon and the entrance to Killary Harbour. We should preserve the physical landscape which is part of our heritage. Indeed, if the records were sufficiently accurate, one could trace ancestral remains in these areas.
The Heritage Council should be in a position with the Department of the Marine to address the problem of coastal erosion. Many historical areas are literally being washed away and something needs to be done in the case of Carne graveyard and the one at Killadoon. We are told there is no money available to build a sea wall which would prevent erosion. A paltry sum of £5 million was allocated nationally for the next five years and is completely inadequate.
Mayo County Council purchased Turlough House, outside Castlebar, which was the home of the mad Fitzgeralds in the 1600s. It is a fine building and it is hoped it will be developed as a heritage centre with consequent economic development. The council lodged an application with the Minister. Many museum pieces dealing with the history of transport, radio and so on which are on State property have never been displayed to the public. Houses such as this should be developed as centres where such museum pieces could be displayed.
Famine villages could be developed such as the one at Dádreen at Killary Harbour which the British fleet sailed up during World War I and walks could be developed in conjunction with the Department of Tourism and Trade. The careful preservation of our landscape and the country code should be fostered and developed. The international interest in hill walking and cross country walking is incredible and we could do much in this area to develop quality tourism. Take, for example, the prophecy of Briain Rua Carabine who, in 1500, prophised that the first and last trains into Achill would carry the remains of people killed in various tragedies. That happened and even though the line was closed it was reopened to transport the remains of those who died in Kirkintilloch in Scotland and in a boating tragedy in Clew Bay. The remains of the line are still there and it may be possible to reopen it as a walking or cycle tour.
There may not be an immediate appreciation of events but future generations will be interested in what happened in their forefather's time. This country is dotted with castles and the remains of old houses. I recently visited Moore Hall on the shores of Lough Carra. It is the ancestral home of the Moores and of George Moore the novelist. It was burnt down in 1922 at the time of the so-called Troubles. Structurally it is in good condition, a local committee carried out research on it and it should be possible to restore the building. It is in a magnificent location overlooking the lake and, if restored, could have the potential to boost economic development in the area.
Deputy Barrett asked me to mention that the Dún Laoghaire Genealogical Society wrote to the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht and wished to have included under section 2 of the Bill, to ensure the protection of our genealogical heritage, records of births, baptisms, marriages, deaths, burials, census returns, testamentary and property records, biographies, family histories, heraldic devices, clan, sept and local histories, gravestones and inscriptions thereon. That is an area of intense interest to tourists. The Minister will be aware of the letter he received from the society. The matter was raised in the Seanad but I am not sure what has happened since.
I wish the Minister well in his endeavours in implementing the Bill. I hope the Government see to it that resources are given to the Heritage Council to deal with the issues I and other Deputies raised.
Ba mhaith líom buíochas a ghabháil don Teachta Kenny as ucht a chuid ama a roinnt liom. I welcome the Bill and wish the Minister well in implementing it. I am interested in the provisions which relate to wildlife. The Minister will appoint 16 ordinary members of the Heritage Council. I am anxious that persons who have expertise, a track record in and commitment to the protection of wildlife would be considered appropriate for appointment to the council. I raised this previously by way of parliamentary question and it was indicated that may well be the case. However, I wish to emphasise it again.
There is provision in the Bill for the establishment of committees, one of which would deal with wildlife. The Minister will appoint three people who are not members of the council to each standing committee. I hope people who are concerned and active in public welfare and rights will be included as that did not happen in the past. I do not wish to be critical of past councils but those who were involved in the council established under the 1976 Act seemed to be heavily weighted in favour of the field sports fraternity and, consequently, had the ear of the Minister and access to power which others who are concerned about wildlife, although from a different perspective, would not have. I hope the Bill will introduce balance in this area.
It has been suggested to me that there was no great public profile of the Wildlife Advisory Council and little published evidence of its work. I am not an expert, and have had no time to research this point, but that is what the experts have told me and I have no reason to doubt them. I make this point in the hope that the work of the new standing committee and council will be made available to groups, interested individuals and the public generally.
On the protection of our heritage, an issue of great concern, and one which is increasingly generating widespread public disquiet, is the abuse, both legal and illegal, of so much of our living heritage, our wildlife. During the past year several well publicised television documentaries produced, unfortunately or fortunately as the case may be, by foreign television stations exposed the highly organised abuse of wildlife. I am referring to programmes on illegal activities such as badger-baiting and the blooding of greyhounds using live rabbits. This evening there will be a programme on cock fighting which is, apparently, a widespread, highly organised and lucrative activity in Northern Ireland. Reports in today's edition of The Irish Times state that this activity is being increasingly organised in Dublin.
There is also the legal abuse of wildlife, for example, live hare coursing. Despite the concession by the Government that greyhounds should be muzzled, the abuse of wildlife through this sport for the entertainment——
I do not want to muzzle the Deputy and I appreciate his deep interest in this issue but I am thinking of the relevance of these points to the Bill before us.
I am astounded at your comments, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. This is part of the problem, there is not even a recognition that wildlife is part of our heritage. I am glad the Bill recognises this point and provides for the setting up of standing committees on wildlife. We have a long way to go in educating even the Members of the House on the relevance of the points to which I have referred and the increasing public concern about the abuse of wildlife, which is an important part of our heritage. This abuse has been swept under the carpet for far too long by — I do not mean this in any personal way — comments similar to those made by the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, "It has nothing to do with our heritage, it is all right if it goes on in our constituency and we will turn a blind eye to it but we should not bring it into the open here".
It must be relevant to the Bill.
It is very relevant to the Bill which provides for the setting up of a wildlife committee and which recognises the importance of our wildlife. At a time of so much public concern about the cruel practices used to abuse wildlife for the entertainment of a very small number of people, the Bill affords an opportunity for the appointment of people to the council and standing committee who will make recommendations which will enable the Government to eliminate many of these abuses, some of which are still legal. Badger-baiting is now illegal but fox hunting is a parallel activity. When a fox goes to ground the terrier owners dig it out in precisely the same way as a badger-baiting. There is also the legal and widespread practice of cub hunting where hounds are blooded using young fox cubs. This is a disgraceful abuse of our wildlife. I regret to say——
Perhaps the Deputy will conclude his remarks. I have permitted him to exceed his time by some two minutes.
I am grateful to you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, for this latitude. The Bill presents us with a real opportunity to deal with the matters to which I have referred in a comprehensive way. The Government must legislate to protect our wildlife and ensure that illegal practices which are really anachronisms and which belong to the past are made illegal. All the forces available to the State and the Garda must be brought to bear to ensure that the good name of this country is not increasingly disgraced through the exposure by foreign television stations of activities which unfortunately are still all too widespread.
I welcome the Bill and congratulate the Minister on its introduction and on the fine work he has carried out in the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht. The Minister said that the Bill fulfils yet another commitment in the Programme for a Partnership Government. The central purpose of the Bill, which was originally introduced in 1982 but lapsed, is to create a semi-State body to take over the executive functions of the National Museum and the Office of Public Works in so far as heritage matters are concerned. I welcome the provision which will replace the existing council with a statutory council which will take over the functions of the Wildlife Advisory Council appointed under section 13 of the Wildlife Act, 1976. The council will also have advisory functions on certain aspects of heritage.
RTE has shown some very good programmes on heritage. I recall in particular the programme hosted by Liam Ó Murchú, "A Rich and Rare Land", which has been very successful. I compliment him and RTE on this series of programmes. One recent programme began by showing the presenter at Aughrim near Ballinasloe where he told the story of the Battle of Aughrim, Raifteirí an File and Lady Gregory. The cameras then moved to Coole Park, Thoor Ballylee, the Céide Fields in Mayo, the Michael Davitt Museum at Straid in County Mayo and finished with the presenter giving a history of Limerick city and county.
The programme gave a very good representation of events in those areas which are mainly in the west, but it did not deal with the difficult issue of access to heritage centres and the problem of public access to land. The Occupiers' Liability Bill published by the Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Mervyn Taylor, will deal with some of those issues.
In Aughrim, Ballinasloe, basic problems relating to parking, lay-bys and rights of way have to be sorted out. I am disappointed that the provisions of the Occupiers' Liability Bill do not cover children. That is interesting because mostly children visit the centres which were so well presented in the programme by Liam Ó Murchú. Since the heritage centre was built at Aughrim — brainchild of the late Martin Joyce whose collection is in the centre — the number of children visiting it has increased each year. This excellent centre was built by Galway County Council with financial assistance from the Structural Funds. There is a problem, which will have to be addressed, if people wish to visit the scene of the battlefield. The Occupiers' Liability Bill will deal with that issue. The phrase "reckless disregard" and the fact that children are not included in that Bill must be addressed. The House will agree that the majority of farmers in Ireland are reasonable and practical people. They are not the type who would dig holes so that others will fall into them; and they would not let loose a pedigree bull at famous sites. I hope the Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Taylor, will deal with those issues. If there is not proper access to the sites, proper parking facilities and lay-bys we will not be able to show these sites to our visitors and our students.
The committees formed to help and develop heritage centres will need funding. When replying I hope the Minister will give an indication of what funding is available. The Minister acknowledged that the word "heritage" does not appear in the title of his Department and said that perhaps this is not a bad thing. He went on to say that heritage is, perhaps, too closely associated with tourism. Tourism is important and we would like to see the targets for tourism in the national plan achieved. The most recent announcement by the Minister for Tourism and Trade on increased funding is welcome.
I agree with the Minister that heritage is not a romantic notion. We want to tell the story of the Irish people and the way we live. The Minister said we are interesting people living in interesting places. This is something of which we can be proud when we welcome visitors to our towns, villages and cities. Although the word "heritage" is not in the title of the Bill it embraces all the work in the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht. I hope that will always be the case. I ask the Heritage Council to acknowledge the contribution of communities who have provided extra funding.
I am pleased the Minister has increased the personnel in the heritage section of his Department. He told the Seanad he has appointed three technical personnel: an archaeologist, an architectural historian and an ecologist whose function will be to take the advice of the Heritage Council and put it into policy statements for the Minister. They will also have to produce initiatives and seek to have the policy implemented by the Department and the Minister. There is some concern that the Heritage Council may be seen as a funding agency. Since the legislation is being put on a statutory basis I hope the advisory functions of the Heritage Council will be under the umbrella of one body and that the role of the council will be strengthened in relation to the protection of architectural heritage in public ownership.
The Minister made an important point in relation to buildings owned by local authorities. He said the Heritage Council could have a veto if there was a decision to demolish, alter significantly or dispose of a heritage building. I understand this can only be done if the Minister or the Government agree with the plans of the local authority. I hope to return to the question of the local authority later.
There is also the question of who is responsible for a heritage building or any building of historic significance. In my own village where a Church of Ireland building is in need of repair there is a doubt as to whether it is owned by the local authority or the local church body. In most cases the county council is responsible for a cemetery but it is not always clear who is responsible for the church. However, we must take into account that some of these buildings are in a dangerous state and sometimes one has to act quickly to ensure that the danger is reduced and that refurbishment works can be carried out on these buildings. I compliment particularly the work done by FÁS. The community youth training scheme for those under 21 years of age has been used in possibly every parish for work on all kinds of buildings from sports centres, dressing rooms to repairing halls and even providing theatres in various towns. This has been a success story. The social employment scheme is for people over 21 years of age. The community youth training scheme has been of enormous benefit and I have seen some of the great work they have done. Obviously the FÁS office has a problem if they have to wait for other bodies to decide who owns property. Can the Heritage Council acquire a building in the event of a dispute between two or more bodies?
I welcome section 7 which provides that the council may make recommendations to the Minister and require him to respond to such recommendations within six months. Section 8 imposes a requirement of the council to respond to the Minister's requests for advice and information regarding the performance of its functions. Section 9 provides that the Minister may, after consultation with the council and after consideration by the Government and with the approval of each House of the Oireachtas, confer additional functions on the council relating to national heritage. The latter is an important section in that the Minister can confer additional functions on the council relating to national heritage. I ask the Minister to examine many of those buildings where work has been done in the past but where extra funding is needed. I refer, in particular, to work done by the Glenamaddy Arts and Historical Society in County Galway who spent a large sum of money in refurbishing a town hall to provide a theatre. Funding for that project was provided through the county enterprise board. I hope such groups are supported by the Heritage Council.
Section 10 provides that local authorities will have a role to play in terms of our heritage. The Minister stated that the local authority will be required to notify the Heritage Council of its proposals relating to heritage buildings and will be prevented from carrying out a proposal contrary to the council's advice without Government agreement. I am sure local authorities will welcome the provisions of section 10, provided funding is made available. I hope the Minister will ensure work is carried out in consultation with local authorities. Section 16 provides for the exclusion from membership of the council of members of the Oireachtas and members of the European Parliament. As many members of the Oireachtas are members of committees such as the national monuments committee, county council arts committees and so on, they would have great experience and could play an important role in this area. I am pleased local authority members are not excluded, but there is no reason Members of the Oireachtas could not serve on the council.
Section 19 provides for a declaration of interests, something which would not cause a problem for Oireachtas Members on the council because they would have made such a declaration as members of local authorities. Members of the Oireachtas who are members of local authorities should be eligible for appointment to the council.
I pay tribute to the tidy towns committees for their great work. Some years ago Galway County Council decided to present county awards. All counties are improving their marks in Bord Fáilte competitions. The town of Mountbellew has won the Galway county award for the past number of years and is steadily increasing its marks in national competitions. Its tidy town committee would like the town to win a regional award for which it would receive £5,000. That money could be used to develop other amenities in the town. I hope Mountbellew achieves that objective in the next few years. Many other towns and villages are now competing with Mountbellew. This proves that competition in the county is worthwhile.
Funding is important and I hope towns trying to highlight a certain feature — the square or a certain building — will get the necessary funding. Local authorities have drawn up plans for certain towns and some have engaged the services of town planners to highlight particular areas which they would like to have developed.
Other Members referred to the role of the Office of Public Works. It was suggested that two Government Departments should not be involved in national heritage matters. The Office of Public Works has done tremendous work and it responds positively to any project brought to its notice. The ceiling in the Seanad Chamber is one of its finest pieces of work. The professional work done in Dublin Castle, at the Céide Fields and at Dún Chaoin are examples of the excellent work carried out by that office. Regardless of whether The Heritage Council or the Office of Public Works has responsibility for our heritage, more publications should be circulated. Professor George Eogan produced an excellent publication under the discovery programme which highlighted what can be done here. I am not referring to the publication of reports in Irish and English six months after 31 December each year, but publications listing the works carried out which would be useful to students.
Members referred to damage to the environment, to ringforts and historic buildings. The rural environmental protection scheme announced by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry last January is significant in this regard. The scheme will provide a sum of £230 million up to 1997 and has been widely welcomed. In his speech at the 50th anniversary of Macra na Feirme the Minister said he was disappointed in the take up of the scheme. While some people may have reservations about it, its objectives are praiseworthy. The first two are relevant to the environment.
The first objective is to establish farming practices and pollutant control methods which reflect increasing public concern for conservation, landscape protection and wider environmental problems. The second objective is to protect wildlife habitats and endangered species of flora and fauna. I hope the efforts of the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry, which have been taken on board by the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, will achieve the objectives of this scheme. The policy is to encourage farmers to retain wetlands, wildlife habitats, hedgerows, stone walls and stone buildings and to protect any feature of historical or archaeological interest. These are all worthy objectives. I note that farmers who participate in the rural environmental protection scheme will be paid a premium of £122 per hectare up to a maximum of 40 hectares. This involves a figure of almost £5,000 for participating farmers. Farmers with an average farm of 24 hectares will be entitled to almost £3,000 per annum for five years, in addition to other incentives available within areas designated by the Office of Public Works. This scheme is worthy of support and is very much in keeping with this Bill. The Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht has indicated his support of this scheme.
Wildlife conservation, which forms part of the rural environmental protection scheme Bill and falls within the remit of the National Heritage Council, is causing some concern generally. One of the most urgent problems is the preservation of the corncrake. I hope the efforts being undertaken under the REP scheme will eliminate some of those wildlife problems. I hope the National Heritage Council will be successful in its endeavours and will co-operate with the Northern Ireland Heritage Council. I have seen the excellent work done on the Ballinamore/ Ballyconnell Canal. There are many opportunities for the implementation of similar schemes.
I congratulate the Minister on his work to date and hope he will continue to obtain the necessary funding so that the heritage left to us by our parents and grandparents will be preserved for future generations.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): Cuirim fáilte roimh an mBille seo agus aontaím leis an Aire go bfhuil an focal “oidhreacht” níos fearr ná an focal Béarla “heritage” ach, is dócha, muna bhfuil Gaeilge ag duine níl rogha idir an dá fhocal aige. Tá fuaim agus brí deas ag an bhfocal “oidhreacht” agus tá súil agam go ndeánfaidh an Bille seo agus an Comhairle maitheas chun an oidhreacht a chosaint dóibh siúd atá ag teacht inár ndiaidh.
Heritage can be described as a thing of the past with a great future, the onus on us being to protect it so that we pass on to future generations that which we have inherited in as good, if not better, condition, using modern means of protecting buildings or artefacts that might otherwise crumble or fall into dereliction.
It is important that we appreciate and take a broad view of all aspects of this heritage, not perceiving it as something preserved merely for mad professors or organisations with one track minds. We have not treated our heritage properly. Archaeology is an enormously interesting subject which should be taught at second level. Most of these aspects are covered in history, geography or arts classes. At primary level also it receives a fair crack of the whip in the course of history lessons when a class may deal specifically with, say, dolmens and other such artefacts, thus instilling a desire to study archaeology at that level. It warrants a separate subject within the schools' curriculum. Archaeological study at primary level may be carried out in an unofficial or light manner but nonetheless lays a foundation and arouses children's curiosity in the subject. It is a pity such studies are not continued at second level as a separate subject so that, as pupils grow older, they will more readily appreciate what our heritage means to us. Archaeology forms one component of that heritage, dating back many centuries, covering such artefacts as dolmens, cairns and the like, demonstrating the lifestyles of former generations. It should be a separate subject within the schools' curriculum rather than an ancillary one, thereby giving pupils greater knowledge and understanding of our heritage.
I once had the privilege of having a pupil of mine. Paul O'Neill, bring a bag of stones into school. I thought they contained several pieces of archaeological or historical interest and on bringing the stones to the National Museum it was found that amongst them there was a Stone Age axe-head, a really important item I had not identified up to that time. That artefact is now housed in the National Museum. The more people with knowledge of such artefacts the greater will be the hope that, when digging house foundations or whatever, they will recognise such items. One can never over-educate young people, mol an óige being the old maxim; if one encourages them they will arrive.
I note that historical monuments have been included in the provisions of this Bill but I am amazed that the National Museum has been excluded. The Minister intends to introduce special legislation for that purpose, but nonetheless I find it difficult to understand why the National Museum, the showhouse of much of our national heritage, has been excluded. We have already stressed the importance of local museums. I hope the Minister will introduce that legislation very soon because my fear is that the National Museum will be forgotten.
I am surprised that wildlife has been included, though of course it forms part of our heritage. Deputy Michael Kitt devoted most of his remarks to stressing its importance. Even he should realise that many customs centred around wildlife. The people involved in fox hunting in rural areas are more interested in showing their horses, demonstrating how well they can survive long chases across stone walls and fences. They would not even see a fox were one in the area, nor would they give a tuppeny curse whether it was hunted. Rural life has traditions dating back many centuries. Linking cruelty and badger baiting with some of these customs is unfair. Nobody wants to see cruelty but I see nothing wrong with the hunt, when I was young, it was a great form of amusement to watch it, especially when riders fell — it was hilarious. I do not think I ever saw them rising a fox, not to mention killing one. It is not part and parcel of the hunt to dig a fox out of a burrow or a den. One does not have to be involved in hunting to do this. Many activities, for example, badger baiting or cock fighting are indefensible but fishing and hunting are part and parcel of rural life and people are not out to inflict cruelty. It is a custom, and I see nothing with continuing it. We cannot have it both ways. The previous speaker said it was important to have people with different viewpoints on the Heritage Council. It is true there must be a balance, but it must have members with a sensible outlook on life in rural areas.
Gun clubs do much to protect endangered species and train young people to treat wildlife with respect. Fishing clubs also do a tremendous amount of work, not alone in teaching the skills of fishing to young people but in teaching them to protect the environment and even to give their time to clean up river-banks etc., to make the countryside enjoyable for others. Much time is spent by gun clubs and fishing clubs in training young people and giving them a sense of responsibility, this is far better than roaming the streets and getting into mischief.
Much could be done in Dublin city to teach people, young people especially, to respect animals. Now would be a good starting point because we read accounts in the papers of what happened over Hallowe'en. Sometimes big dogs are kept in unsuitable houses. Bigger animals need plenty of exercise and, although pampered, well fed and with a lovely gloss on their coats, one could argue that it is not fair to have them locked up in smaller houses where they cannot exercise. On the other hand one could argue that if people like to keep animals and look after them well, it counteracts the drawback to the animal of being kept in a small area.
There is much to be said for having a broad outlook. It is easy to say that people involved in all sorts of sport enjoy its cruelty aspect. It is impossible to explain to people who are anti-coursing that dog owners want to win the cup and it is a question of one dog beating the other and getting the first turn; they do not have to kill the hare, and nowadays with muzzling that is out. Nevertheless people are depicted as being intent on savagely killing hares while they cheer and shout and roar. That is not the position but it is a waste of time telling that to people who do not want to believe it.
In section 10 the Minister is preparing for a Coalition fallout. It deals with local councils' involvement with buildings regarded as coming under the aegis of the Heritage Council from which they can get advice if they want to renovate, demolish or anything else. Subsection (3) states that where the council has advised against a proposal referred to in subsection (2) the public authority shall not commence work on the proposal unless (a) the Minister agrees to the proposal or (b) the Minister agrees to a modified form of the proposal or (c) the Government agrees to the proposal. Is this in anticipation of another situation such as that in Mullaghmore where one Minister may have one view while his colleague in another party has a different one? If the council advises the Minister who in turn refuses permission to the county council to touch a building, why should the Government overrule the council and the Minister? To put it at its simplest, does that not leave the Minister in the halfpenny place?
No.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): No? I will await the Minister's reply, but it is strange. If the council says something should not be done by, for example, Carlow County Council, and the Minister agrees, who then will advise the Government? Will it be the person with the most pull or the person who has contact with the larger party in the Coalition Government?
Section 23 deals with fees which can be a problem. If a farmer is ploughing his field or opening drains and comes across something he thinks might be of historical importance and contacts the council, it would be grossly wrong to charge a fee for its advice. The same thing might happen in the case of a builder. In both cases the inconvenience caused can be enormous, especially if they have to stop what they are doing. Charging a fee might deter people from contacting the council. However, people should be encouraged to seek advice even with the risk of false alarms because if only one out of ten items turns out to be important, it will have been worth it. The threat of having to pay £25 or the travelling expenses etc., of the person coming to inspect the item should be avoided because it would discourage people from doing their duty and being good citizens. I hope to see clarity in regard to fees. Section 23 says that fees may be charged, that is fine provided it is not enforced too rigidly.
I am also fascinated by the fact that almost four pages deal with declaration of interest. Leaving out the introduction, definitions and so on, there are only about nine pages left which means that the meat of the Bill is the question of declaration of interests, I am not sure whether it was printed some time ago or lately. Objects that go back 25 years or more are covered — I hope there are no mines in anyone's back garden of which they are unaware. Why all this fuss in regard to declaration of interests? Certain buildings may be of value but this is overdoing things.
It has already been said that the council should be able to give financial aid to people. It will be a tootheless tiger if it can only give instructions when people look for assistance. Many people across the country are preserving our heritage, giving of their time and money. The Carlow Historical Society and its members do much work preserving and even taking photographs of buildings. I was fascinated to see, when our own church was being redecorated, that one of the members of the historical society took photographs of the church before it was touched. At the time I did not see it as significant. Anyone walking into the church at the moment will see a lovely church but older people will have memories of a different church and it is nice to have a record. Such people all over the country are doing so much to guarantee that our heritage survives, at their own expense. When making appointments the Minister should consider people with a good track record. It is very easy to get spoofers with all the theory of this type of work who never do a tap.
Many people from all walks of life are experts in this field. This year I met an American who visited Carlow to trace records. He paid glowing tributes to the local people for their interest, knowledge and assistance to him in tracing his roots.
This year also I visited Ellis Island and saw the film about our ancestors who struggled to survive — although many did not — on their journey to the new promised land. The descendants of those people in the United States would like to come to Ireland to trace their roots. Deputy Kenny read a letter from the Dún Laoghaire Genealogical Society requesting that the Bill include a provision covering the records of births and baptisms. If only for selfish reasons we should urgently address this matter to fulfill the demand of people in the United States who genuinely want to trace their roots in Ireland.
During the summer I met three ladies from the United States who were overjoyed to find a second cousin here with whom they could communicate. What Irish Americans do not know about Ireland is unbelievable, but there is a demand to have all those records traced. While many people throughout the country are involved in that work, An Chomhairle Oidhreachta should assist those people because some of the records will disappear. The location of many tombstones have been recorded, but the records should be stored on computer to enable people with a minimum of information to trace their roots. We owe it to the descendants of people who had to leave Ireland and travel on overcrowded disease ridden ships to maintain records. Their descendants, perhaps third generation, are genuinely concerned about finding out who they are.
It would not be fitting not to refer to Carlow as the hub of Irish heritage as it has the Browneshill, sometimes known as the Kernastown Dolmen, the biggest one in Europe, sometimes erroneously described by officials from the Department and Office of Public Works as the biggest dolmen in Ireland. Its capstone is estimated to weigh 100 tons. It is located half a mile from the school in which I taught for many years. I was always fascinated by the number of foreigners who either came to the school or who I met on my way to or from school who asked directions to the dolmen while many local people would hardly know where to find that dolmen. We tend to neglect all those things.
That dolmen is in the centre of a large field. The farmer who owns the land was very kind but had to put up with much hardship. At one stage he got fed up and threatened to close off access to the dolmen. Now a fence runs right out to the dolmen in the middle of the field and this is a nuisance to a tillage farmer in this age of modern machinery. Children regularly visit the dolmen. Some years ago, before the dolmen was fenced off, children from a Dublin school visited it and a young fellow, who thought he knew more than everyone else, took off, got caught on barbed wire and the farmer had to pay £10,000 compensation following a court case. The issue of public liability is very serious. It is indefensible that a farmer who owns land on which a dolmen is located — as it is a national monument he must let people visit it — can be sued for compensation by people who injure themselves while damaging his property. The proposed Occupiers' Liability Bill seeks to differentiate between invitees, trespassers and so on. There should not be any justification for farmers being sued by people who go on their property and cause damage.
All members who spoke on this matter in the Dáil defended the interests of farmers. However, a provision in the proposed Occupiers' Liability Bill provides that farmers will be liable in respect of injury suffered by younger people on their property. Why should I be responsible for someone, irrespective of their age, who I did not invite or encourage to enter my property who falls into a manhole? How can monuments be open to the public if the owner of the land on which it is located is liable in respect of injury suffered on his property? Despite the good wishes of most Members this matter will not be dealt with properly because the Minister dealing with the Occupiers' Liability Bill intends to make unfair exceptions.
There is a fine example of a Romanesque doorway in the ruins of a church in Killeshin. It has been well preserved and signposted by local people. I will not take the Minister on a tour of Carlow. I could mention Carlow Castle, Clonmore Castle, Leighlinbridge Castle and the picturesque St. Mullins.
The Deputy should discuss monuments in County Clare since both he and the Minister come from there.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): We should talk about Lismore.
The Deputy is being mercenary.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): Many people help preserve our monuments and An Chomhairle Oidhreachta must assist them. It is not enough for those people to do that work and perhaps to pay fees to An Chomhairle Oidhrechta for advice and so on: they should receive assistance. Often the work undertaken by those people involves a cost and without their assistance many historical sites would be neglected. I hope this Bill will preserve our heritage for posterity. I support the Bill.
I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I welcome the Bill which will add considerably to the legislative base for activities in the areas of the arts, culture and heritage. The Minister and his officials must be complimented for bringing forward this Bill following the enactment of the National Monuments (Amendment) Bill, 1993. This legislation arises from a decision of the Fianna Fáil Party and Labour Party to establish the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht and to put the National Heritage Council on a statutory basis. The council was established in 1988 and all interested parties will welcome the regularisation of the position of the council. I had the opportunity to speak on Second Stage on the National Monuments Bill and this Bill represents a further important administarative landmark in the identification, cultivation and preservation of our national heritage.
The establishment of the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht gives the Government the opportunity to redress the regional imbalance that has occurred in the establishment of art and culture centres throughout the country. I believe — this view has gained momentum in recent years — that everyone should have easy access to arts activities and that areas of cultural and heritage value should be given equal priority. I would ask the Minister to bear in mind the need to invest on a regional basis the substantial Structural Funds that are available to his Department to ensure that the regional imbalance in arts infrastructure is redressed, particularly taking into account the need for investment in the Border counties.
We discuss this Bill at a time when thankfully substantial progress has been made in the peace process. The Minister, in nominating the members of the council, should consider giving substantial representation to people from Ulster. It is important at a time like this that common links such as culture and heritage that are shared throughout this island be given recognition and that we take the opportunity to build on those strengths.
I wish to refer to some of the heritage of the province of Ulster. The first settlement of human beings in Ireland can be traced back to 8000 BC at Mount Sandel in County Derry. The Neolithic or Stone Age saw the first farmers, and traces of that settlement were found in Counties Tyrone and Limerick. The megalithic tombs in that era include the splendid tomb at Cohaw in County Cavan. The late Tom Barron of Bailieboro carried out extensive and valuable research to identify that tomb.
Our schools and educational institutions have a vital role to play in the preservation and nurturing of our heritage and culture. A visit to the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum at Cultra, Hollywood, County Down, outside Belfast, is a most enlightening and exciting experience which should be highly recommended to all schools and indeed to all adults. I would like to know what percentage of schools from the South have travelled to Hollywood to visit this museum. It gives major coverage to the history of the flax industry, including a flax scutching mill. There are also spades from the mills of the nine counties of Ulster. There is an endless range of farm implements and cottages have been removed and reconstructed on this site. It is a splendid collection of our material culture and heritage.
The Navan Fort at Armagh is another rich endowment. The province of Ulster has numerous and very valuable historical societies such as Breifne in Cavan, Farney in Monaghan and the Armagh and Donegal Societies. I hope that the Heritage Council will help such groups, if necessary, with their publications and will have a co-ordinating role in the work of these societies, which carry out very important work and contribute enormously to the preservation of our rich heritage.
The development of new county museums will add greatly to the spread of cultural facilities. I welcome the development of the new county museum in Ballyjamesduff. Many artefacts from County Cavan are stored in the National Museum. Dr. Wallace, Director of the National Museum of Ireland, has indicated to me that he will co-operate fully with the establishment of the county museum and will give favourable consideration to the return of items of local and national importance to Ballyjamesduff, so that they can be preserved for the county in a permanent facility. I was glad to receive confirmation from Dr. Wallace that the Kil-lycluggan Stone, which was found in my home parish of Templeport, will be returned to the County Cavan Museum. This stone dates from the early Celtic period and has been held in the National Museum. The stone, on its return to the county museum, will have far more meaning and far greater historical relevance in that environment. The development of the museum will provide a much needed tourism and visitor focus for the county and the region in general. Fortunately we have in the county the "pig house" collection and indeed the county is indebted to Mrs. Phyllis Faris for her assistance in making this collection available, which will no doubt form a centrepiece in the new museum.
I raised previously in this House the possibility of having the great mace of Cavan restored to the county — it is at present held in the Ulster Museum, Belfast. I understand the mace was returned to the original donor's family and was subsequently sold at auction in Dublin in 1967. That great mace was presented to the corporation of the Borough of Cavan on 29 June 1724. I ask the Minister to use his good offices to negotiate with the relevant authorities in Belfast for the return of this precious item to another part of the province of Ulster, namely, to its home in County Cavan.
In his Second Stage speech the Minister said he sees the need to proceed down the road of decentralisation in policy implementations. I hope that due recognition will be given by the National Heritage Council to the role of local authorities and voluntary community groups in the care and management of our rich history. The local authority in my area, Cavan County Council, is co-operating with local groups in preserving our rich history. It has carried out extensive research on the possible development and linkage of monastic sites in counties Fermanagh and Cavan. The sites in question are St. Mogue's Island, Drumlane and Trinity Island in County Cavan and Boa Island, White Island and Devenish Island in our neighbouring county of Fermanagh. The decision to concentrate on island monastic sites will create an alternative tourist amenity based on two central factors: their location on major navigational waterways and their rich historical and archaeological content. The development of this proposal would be an ideal cross-Border project. I hope the Minister and his Department, Bord Fáilte and the Office of Public Works will give favourable consideration to this matter under the INTERREG II Programme. There is a proposal in the National Development Plan to invest in products for specialist tourists, and the monastic island sites proposal has the potential of being marketed towards those tourists.
On St. Mogue's Island on Templeport Lough stand the remains of a 6th century church ruin. A 12th century settlement was established by St. Mogue who received his training at Clonard under St. Finian. St. Mogue's shrine was discovered on this island. On Trinity Island on the shore of Lough Oughter are the remains of the Abbey of the Premonstratensian Canons founded around 1250. The Romanesque doorway in Kilmore Cathedral is thought to have originated on Trinity Island. Located on this island are headstones of note dating from the middle ages to the modern age. The oldest building at Drumlane Abbey is the round tower, with a roundheaded doorway and windows. Beside the tower stands a medieval church which is thought to date back to the 13th century. The western doorway has some fine stonework, with unusual features of bishops and abbots of the 15th century. There are also carvings of a monarch on the outer side of the door and windows.
Devenish Island is a very important site on Lower Lough Erne. The earliest buildings include the Church of St. Molaise. I understand it has one of the best examples of a round tower in Ireland. A museum was established on this island in 1976 and it preserves many of the stone fragments found there. Boa Island is renowned for its two highly unusual stone carvings found at Caltragh cemetery on the island. White Island contains the only complete round-headed Romanesque doorway surviving in the Six Counties and it is also well known for its stone figures. I understand an early Christian date has been given to these monuments.
One of the central links between these locations is St. Mogue who was born on what is now known as St. Mogue's Island. The saint is linked with Drumlane Island and when he attended St. Finian's school at Clonard he befriended St. Molaise who later moved to the Devenish Island monastery.
Similarities can be found between the round towers on Drumlane and Devenish islands and artefacts discovered on Devenish Island have strong similarities with the Romanesque architectural features found at Kilmore Cathedral which may have originated on Trinity Island. Presumably, life on these islands varied little due, primarily, to their proximity. The common themes should be developed and made available, not just as a visitor attraction but as an enrichment of our understanding of history. The similarities and differences between the various monastic sites should be an interesting theme to develop and would provide a useful alternative tourism product in this part of Ulster. Deputy Byrne referred to St. Mogue who brought Christianity to County Wexford.
Interestingly, another area that comes under the remit of the National Heritage Council is the development of our inland waterways. Some of the islands to which I referred are accessible by the restored Ballyconnel-Ballinamore Canal. The extension of the Erne navigation southwards from Belturbet to Killykeen and Killeshandra would provide access to Drumlane Island. This proposal would afford an opportunity to increase the range of cultural and heritage tourism products, particularly with the development of the monastic sites along the Erne and Lough Oughter complex. Tourism interests in the Border counties could only benefit from such a development, in terms of employment and improved cross-Border relations. I commend the county manager and county engineer in Cavan and the officials who drafted this imaginative proposal. I appeal to the Minister and his officials to support the project at the appropriate time.
I was glad the Minister referred to the economic benefits that would accrue from a proper cultural policy. He also emphasised the need to strike a proper balance in dealing with such riches. When in Government in 1987 Fianna Fáil targeted tourism as a potential growth area in terms of employment. This decision has been fully vindicated given the substantial increase in employment in the tourism sector and the increase in foreign earnings. The response of 65 per cent of holidaymakers to this country that they visited historical sites underlines the importance of our heritage and the need to preserve and enhance it.
The decision of that Government in the late 1980s to restore the Ballyconnell-Ballinamore Canal was courageous and imaginative and will pay rich dividends for the economy, particularly the local economy in the counties of Fermanagh, Cavan and Leitrim. I refer to that decision because the development of inland waterways is one of the functions assigned to the National Heritage Council. The restoration of this historical amenity and the revitalisation of the 19th century link has created a continuous inland waterway of 875 kilometres which uniquely enriches this country's tourism potential and provides one of Europe's best leisure amenities.
A commercial value can be put on the restored canal and this can be measured in terms of the numbers of tourists, weekend visitors and cabin cruisers. We should also take into account that the Ballyconnell-Ballinamore Canal is a fragment of Europe's past and is now a living and working link with the 19th century. The cut stone bridges have been preserved with some modification and considerable repair. I compliment the Office of Public Works and ESB International on their engineering skills in bringing this project to fruition. I understand that every element of reconstruction was organised to ensure that animal, bird, fish, insect and plant life along the derelict canal were preserved in their natural habitats. The cross-Border nature of the project proved that cooperation can be readily achieved between bodies on both sides of the Border.
I appeal to the Minister to progress another proposal at present before the Departments of Finance; Tourism and Trade; Arts, Culture and the Gaelthacht and the Office of Public Works, on the need to extend the Erne navigation southwards from Belturbet to Killykeen and Killeshandra. This project would complement the restored Ballyconnell-Balinamore Canal and add considerably to the economic well-being of the Killeshandra, Belturbet and Ballyconnell areas and a sizeable portion of our neighbouring county, Fermanagh. In the context of the recent political developments on this island, I appeal to the Minister to give this project priority in view of its cross-Border nature.
Our literary and musical heritage must be given due recognition. The works of literary figures from County Cavan such as Edgar Alan Poe, Henry James and Cathal Bui MacGiolla Gunna, in whose honour the late Uachtaráin na hÉireann. Cearbhaill Ó Dálaigh, unveiled a John Behan sculpture, are not as readily available or as widely known as their quality demands.
The revival of Irish music and its quality is one of Ireland's marketing strengths. I know individuals in my own county who are doing tremendous work in teaching Irish traditional music. The teaching of traditional music should be assisted either by the National Heritage Council, the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht or the Department of Education. Teaching could be provided by suitably qualified music teachers in schools, Comhaltas branches or under vocational education programmes. I am aware that many of those engaged in this activity on a voluntary basis find it more and more demanding, in terms of the cost of insurance, heating and lighting and rent.
Teaching children in ceilí bands or groups involves time and effort and additional burden of fund-raising can act as a major deterent. Teaching music could be formalised whereby those who have completed the teacher's course at Comhaltas Ceoltoirí Éireann and classes would be more widely available. This would also result in the creation of employment. This matter should be investigated and perhaps a pilot project could be introduced in an area such as Cavan under the local vocational education committee.
I take this opportunity to pay tribute to a local group in my own county, namely, Mullagh, in County Cavan, which is developing a St. Kilian Heritage Centre. I understand that this centre was refused funding by the National Heritage Council and I hope that such developments in future will be eligible for substantial grant assistance.
St. Kilian was born in Mullagh around 640. He travelled with his brother monks, Colonat and Totnan, in 680 to the European mainland to spread Christianity. The three missionaries were martyred in Wurzburg, Germany in 689 but they had planted the seeds of Christianity which continued to grow after their deaths. It is noteworthy that throughout Germany today churches and chapels have been dedicated to Kilian and his companions. Thanks to the efforts of the local community in Mullagh and their counterparts in Wurzburg substantial numbers travel from Germany each year to visit Mullagh and from Cavan to Wurzburg. Such developments and exchanges are welcome from several points of view.
During the past few years the condition of graveyards throughout the country has improved immensely due to greater awareness among the public and the sizeable contribution of FÁS. There is a vast array of architectural heritage in our Catholic and Church of Ireland churches and gospel halls. The same is true of hospital, jails and workhouses. As we approach the 150th anniversary of that unfortunate and desperate period of Irish history, namely, the Great Famine, I appeal to the Minister to pay special attention to the workhouses, particularly those that remain intact. I understand that an interdepartmental committee has been established to co-ordinate commemoration programmes throughout the country.
It would be appropriate for the incoming Heritage Council to identify workhouse buildings that remain intact and to have sensible restoration works carried out. In my village, Bawnboy, a workhouse is intact and the council wishes to develop it. The adjoining graveyard is derelict and does not offer those buried there the dignity they deserve. The condition of such graveyards is no longer tolerable and radical improvements are called for. I hope the Department or the Heritage Council will ensure that every Famine graveyard is properly marked and is up to the standard that we expect today. A target date should be set, such as the commencement of the commemoration programme of the Famine, for those works to be completed.
I do not agree with section 16 which provides for the exclusion from membership of the Heritage Council of Members of either House of the Oireachtas or the European Parliament. If a Member of the Oireachtas has expertise which would be helpful to the council I fail to see why this Bill provides for the exclusion of that person. The case of the former Senator, the eminent Professor George Eogan, comes to mind. This exclusion of Oireachtas Members and public representatives from councils, boards and bodies is not a healthy development. Public representatives have a mandate from the public and they should be eligible for nomination to bodies such as the Heritage Council. Will the Minister, who has served with distinction in both Houses of the Oireachtas and on local authorities, review this section?
The Minister is committed to decentralisation and perhaps he would consider locating the headquarters of the new council in a provincial town. I suggest the province of Ulster and I recommend Cavan be chosen.
Tá an-áthas orm páirt a ghlacadh sa díospóireacht ar an mBille atá os ár gcomhair inniu. Beidh Oireachtas na Gaeilge ar siúl i mo cheantair dhúchais, Baile Dhún Gharbháin, congarach do Ghaeltacht cheantair na Rinne. Caithfimid ár moladh a thabhairt do choiste an Oireachtais as ucht an dea-obair atá á dhéanamh acu chun leas teanga agus cultúir na hÉireann a chur chun cinn.
It is appropriate that this Bill is being discussed during the week that the Oireachtas festival is taking place in Dungarvan, County Waterford, and in the adjoining Gaeltacht areas of Ring and Old Parish. A sad occurrence was the death a few weeks ago of Nioclás Tóín, one of the most famous sea nós singers of all times. Some of the ceremonies during the Oireachtas will commemorate Nioclás Tóín, who not only had a brilliant voice but had probably the greatest repertoire of old Irish and English songs of any singer in modern times. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam.
The proposals in this Bill will achieve better results than achieved heretofore. I see the division of responsibilities between Departments as the main technical difficulty. The Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, the Department of Finance, and a division of that Department, the Office of Public Works, the Department of Tourism and Trade and the wildlife division of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry all have a role. I do not know if it is proposed to continue with the division of responsibilities but we have the perfect opportunity to break the mould and embrace national monuments, the culture and traditions of the country and the language in one Department. I have no doubt that the Minister would be delighted if that were the case and that the mandarins in the Department of Finance were convinced of this.
It is very frustrating to deal with the Office of Public Works, whether one is involved in building a school or in a public building of any sort. In recent years they have had some wonderfully dedicated archaeologists who have done tremendous work with very limited resources both in terms of manpower and finance. They are facing an almost impossible task in the face of overwhelming interest in our history and traditions. It is obvious from the Deputies' travelogues that enormous developments are taking place. I know there is provision in the Bill for additional finance to be made available but if the Minister could secure significant financing and control of the Office of Public Works he would be able to achieve what he wishes. I know how difficult it is at Cabinet to wrestle responsibilities from other Ministers. Neither they nor their civil servants want to give away their responsibilities but I would like to see the Minister getting more clout as additional finance is badly needed.
If ever a Department was made for an individual, the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht is made for Deputy Michael D. Higgins. There could not have been a more perfect choice. Previous speakers referred to the fact that the former Taoiseach had responsibility for culture, the arts and the language while Taoiseach. That showed his concern for our heritage. He did an excellent job and it is not easy for a Taoiseach to take on additional responsibilities such as these. Mr. Haughey went to great lengths to promote the arts. The tax incentives he provided more than 25 years ago were a tremendous boost for artists here. His endeavours to help the Gaeltacht were considerable also. We have had Ministers for the Gaeltacht, with no responsibility other than for the Gaeltacht, who achieved considerably less. Of course, being Taoiseach, he had great clout in the allocation of funding to various areas. The office does have its advantages in that regard.
Five or six years ago a Cabinet Minister, who has since been elevated to a higher position in Europe, told me that there were to be no more grants for reconstruction because the Taoiseach at the time, former Deputy Charles Haughey, was dead set against the grant mentality. He could not be blamed for that. There were to be no more reconstruction grants for housing. Every six months I tabled a question to the Taoiseach asking that grants be reintroduced for rethatching of houses. On the first occasion he fended off the question without any problem; on the second occasion I began to get under his skin and on the third and fourth occasions he became visibly annoyed. Before I had an opportunity to ask the question for the fifth time, he announced that he intended to reintroduce the grants. It was an achievement to have these thatched houses retained because they are a major part of our culture.
In the intervening years before the grants were reintroduced many thatched cottages in my locality were reroofed with corrugated iron, asbestos and other such materials. I realise many of these cottages fall into disrepair through natural circumstances but it was a mortal sin to see part of our culture being destroyed in front of our eyes.
My party welcomes the Bill, the additional funding that will be provided and the establishment of a stronger council because our culture and heritage is being destroyed daily. I am sure every Member knows of an individual who has destroyed an historical monument before a preservation order could be placed on it. Whether one is talking about a ring fort, a listed house or an historical structure of some kind, if a developer or a landowner believes his work will be inhibited due to the placement of a preservation order, he will rush in and destroy the site. I am aware of such incidents taking place.
How many ring forts are there here? How many were there 30 or 40 years ago? I would say the figure is less than 10 per cent. Most of the ring forts have been destroyed or bulldozed into the ground and that is a dreadful reflection on our society. It is only in the past 25-30 years that there has been a recognition of our culture and heritage. Prior to that historical monuments and items of great cultural value were regarded almost as a nuisance. They often indicated a background of poverty, in particular the old thatched cottages. Rather than preserve them, the inclination was to destroy them. We are now trying to make up for lost time. Unfortunately, much of our heritage has been destroyed in relatively recent times.
Deputies referred to events that took place hundreds of years ago and it is right that they should do so but I am concerned about an issue that is not often mentioned, namely, our more recent history. There seems to be a reluctance to discuss events of the 1920s and 1930s because they are regarded as the bad old days. But it is not just the ancient history that is neglected, recent history can be neglected also.
I live very close to a Gaeltacht area in County Waterford. Perhaps I am under an illusion but in the late 1960s and early 1970s a new impetus was given to the Irish language in that Gaeltacht area of Ring old parish. Prior to that, there was almost a stigma attached to being an Irish speaker. People deliberately went out of their way not to speak Irish. I may be accused of scaremongering or telling mistruths but that was my understanding of the situation. Then came a resurrection of pride in things Irish and for the past 25 or 30 years I have seen young people speaking Irish and they are deeply offended if people do not speak Irish in response to them. That is a relatively recent occurrence. At that time fishermen, farmers and working people in those areas would speak Irish among themselves unashamedly; they were proud of their tradition but they were a little cowed in the presence of outsiders.
There is now a tremendous wish to speak Irish at all times and it is wonderful that a tradition such as the Irish language, on the verge of disappearing in many areas, is now stronger than ever in certain areas. I do not know if the same is true in the Connemara, Donegal, Kerry or Cork Gaeltacht areas as they are much larger, but I hope it is. I have seen this happen in a small Gaeltacht area, the most easterly Gaeltacht area in the country if one exempts the small Gaeltacht in County Meath created by people who were resettled in that area by the Land Commission. I am talking about a natural Gaeltacht in an easterly part of the country and that change in attitude is delightful.
Many of us feel guilty if we do not speak Irish but some of us are not linguists. I do not speak French or German but my children do. I feel guilty about that but some of us are good at speaking languages while others are not.
Some of today's contributions were like a travelogue of the various counties. I remember the Pathe News which used to be shown in cinemas with the old films and J.P. Fitzpatrick, quite a famous fellow at the time, who gave a running commentary on every country in the world. That is what today's debate sounded like to me. Deputy Enda Kenny made a point which is indicative of what has happened in recent years. He referred to Kelly's Directory of every business in Ireland, published in 1905. I was in the Irish Embassy in Copenhagen on the same evening. A few of those present were shocked to find that their forebears were not mentioned. They thought they were people of considerable substance. That highly informative directory is not available in the Oireachtas Library. I tried to get it through the county library in Waterford but failed to do so. It is a magnificent publication about six inches thick. The ambassador informed me that one of his staff bought it 20 years ago for £1 in a second-hand book shop in London. It is sad that no library has it when there may be very few copies available.
What happened to the Folklore Commission which was so active after the foundation of the State until the early 1950s? I remember an old man telling me sometime in the 1950s that he had recorded a series of interviews with someone from the commission. One of the top people in the commission died a year ago. I do not remember his name. There is a wealth of information available about life in the latter part of the last century which was handed down from grandparents and parents to children. The commission would have gathered together an enormous amount of material which is locked away in an archive in Dublin. I have never heard of it being made available.
It is not much use locked away in UCD. Provincial newspapers are the most widely read publications and if such information were channelled to the local newspapers it would be of considerable help to people who wish to find out about their background, the mud huts our ancestors lived in and which our grandparents and parents did not want to talk about. Part of the reason we do not know much about our comparatively recent history is that our parents and grandparents did not to talk about it as times were so bad.
When I was working in England I met people who emigrated as teenagers. Although now in their fifties they never returned to Ireland because there are too many bad memories. Many people who emigrated to America did not even correspond with their families. They had a reasonable standard of living and they wanted to forget the awfulness of their youth. It was too much to think about. The information collected by the Folklore Commission should be made available and promoted.
At Question Time I regularly put down a question about the connection between Newfoundland and the Waterford Estuary but I think I am wasting my time. It is the greatest ethnic connection between Ireland and any part of the world. Few countries in the western world have the same kind of relationship. I continually ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs if he will appoint a consul, not just an honorary one, to reactivate the link between Newfoundland and the Waterford area. My information is that traditions which have been lost to this country are alive in Newfoundland. They speak with the same flat Waterford accent — my accent is not as flat as I live closer to Cork — as can be found in Dunmore East, Passage East, Ballyhack and Duncannon.
Mention was made of the need to restore graveyards. Great work has been done in this area by those on FÁS schemes and by the county council. An excellent Radhairc documentary was made about the south coast of Newfoundland about ten or 15 years ago. They showed people doing traditional Irish dances and showed tombstones bearing the names Power, McGrath, Morrisey, Foley, Flynn, Hickey and all the names associated with the south east. The Christian names were also similar for example Ignatius. Their culture is the same as it was here 60 years ago. However, I am told by those in the Memorial University in St. John that the culture is fast disappearing with the advent of television. We have made no attempt to have a link with them and that is disgraceful. I plead with the Minister to try to do something about it. The obvious way is to have an Irish Newfoundland Society or Waterford Newfoundland Society backed up by a consul based in Newfoundland.
It was virtually a province of Ireland and the closest we ever came to having a colony, not that we ever wanted one. In 1785, 90 per cent of the population in St. John were from the Waterford Estuary area. That takes some beating. The Welsh maintained a link between the Welsh sheep farmers who emigrated to Patagonia several hundred years ago. They speak the Welsh language and have their own Eisteddfod or national festival each year. They retained those customs. The Welsh ensure through the British Foreign Office and statutory cultural bodies — perhaps the National Trust or the body responsible for national heritage — that those links are maintained. We make no effort in this area and are letting these links die. The Germans are well known for being assiduous in such matters and they maintain their links with colonies in Russia, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Romania. Last year I visited Brasov in Romania which is almost totally German and which maintains its links with Germany. The only link we maintain is St. Patrick's Day when we send Ministers to all parts of the globe, Guinness is dyed green and everybody, regardless of whether they are Hispanic, Negro, Irish or Polish, dresses as if they are Irish. It is nice to celebrate St. Patrick's Day but it does not address the problem. I am talking about natural traditional links which are being allowed to die. We have been neglectful in this regard and the Minister is the only person who might bring about improvements in the areas to which I have referred.
The points I have raised are relevant and illustrate the need for us to give ourselves a pinch every now and again and remind ourselves that we have an obligation to pass on our culture to future generations. We celebrate St. Patrick's day in a flamboyant and colourful way but this is superficial and does not deal property with the problem.
Having said that, there has been a tremendous improvement in the approach to local history, the Irish language, traditional music and set dancing. There has also been a significant increase in the number of gaelscoile-anna. I welcome these positive developments. I have highlighted the areas in which we have been found wanting, without wishing to be malicious or critical — if anything, I am self-critical — but in an effort to prick people's conscience so that the things which should have been done years ago are done before it is too late.
I welcome the Bill which will put the Heritage Council on a statutory footing. This Bill and the National Monuments (Amendment) Act are part of the integrated body of legislation which has emanated from the Minister's Department. The Minister and other speakers have acknowledged the excellent work carried out by the Heritage Council. We are aware of the concern expressed by the council that its role in policy formulation was limited and that in some cases it was viewed merely as a funding agency. I join with other speakers in acknowledging the excellent work done by the Heritage Council and am confident that putting it on a statutory basis will be enormously beneficial.
The functions of An Comhairle Oidhreachta must be all embracing, incorporating as they do the identification, protection, preservation and enhancement of our national heritage including monuments, archaeological objects, heritage objects, works of architecture, flora, fauna, wildlife habitats, landscapes, seascapes, wrecks, geology, heritage gardens and parks and inland waterways. I must confess that if I were asked to define some of these I would have a certain amount of difficulty in doing so and would find it difficult to draw a distinction between them. It is obvious that the policies put forward by An Comhairle Oidhreachta will require co-operation between a number of Departments and several authorities and agencies. It is important that the necessary framework to facilitate this co-operation is put in place as a matter of urgency and that it is binding on all parties.
Cuirim fáilte mhór roimh ráiteas an Aire go bhfuil sé ag ullmhú Billí i gcomhthéacs an polasaí a bhí taobh thiar de bhunú a Roinn féin. Tá tábhacht ollmhór ag baint le gnó na Roinne. Tréaslaím leis an Aire as ucht an dul chun cinn atá déanta aige i leith déantús scannán. mar shampla, gnó atá titithe i laige go mór sa Bhreatain agus atá méadaithe go mór faoina choimirce sa tír seo. Cruthaíonn sé nár gá go mbeidh costas gan brabús ag baint le cúrsaí ealaíona i gcónaí. Táim cinnte go mbeidh breis dea-scéala ag an Aire i gcúrsaí scannáin amach anseo. Faoi mar a tharlaíonn, tá gaol liom féin ina cathaoirleach ar Bhord Scannán na hÉireann, agus cé nach n-aontaímid faoi gach rud, tréaslaím léi as an obair atá á dhéanamh aici féin agus ag an mBord.
Mhol mé an tAire cheana go príobháideach faoina rinne sé i leith alt 31 den Acht Craolacháin. Ba chéim bheag íar shlí amháin, agus cáineadh an tAire go mór ina leith, ach ba chéim thábhachtach í ar an mbóthar i dtreo na síochána. Molaim go poiblí anois é ar an méid a rinne sé.
Tá áthas orm go mbeidh roinnt mhaith den fhoireann sa Chomhairle Oidhreachta gnó a dhéanamh trí Ghaeilge. Geallann an tAire go mbeidh daoine le suim, eolas agus cleachtadh acu i gcúrsaí oidhreachta ar an bhfoireann, go mbeidh fo-choistí sonracha le bunú ag an gComhairle, agus go mbeidh foireann agus airgead dóthanach acu chun a gcuid dualgas a chomhlíonadh. Deirtear go minic gurb é sin an fhadhb is mó a bhíonn ag bord mar seo, nach mbíonn a dhóthain airgid acu chun an obair a dhéanamh. Tá súil agam go mbeidh leanúnachas amach ó obair an sean-Chomhairle, a rinne sár-obair ó thaobh na seandálaíochta, an dúlra agus a lán réimsí eile den oidhreacht de. Má bhí laige ag baint leis, b'fhéidir go ndearna siad a gcuid oibre go ró-chiúin agus gan mórán bolscaireachta.
In this regard I look forward to the Heritage Council embarking on a campaign which will raise awareness of our environment and bring home to individuals and groups their specific responsibilities and the fact that the setting up of a Heritage Council does not absolve everyone else of their responsibilities in the heritage and environment areas.
Recently I have been doing some walking in parts of my constituency and the southern part of the Minister's constituency. When one drives along roads one sees very little apart from what is immediately visible. I have been appalled at the amount of indiscriminate dumping inside walls and very often in beautiful spots where there are lay-bys. The hundreds of thousands of drivers who drive along these roads never notice this dumping and are not aware of the damage being caused. I presume that the people responsible are not aware of the enormous damage they are doing. When one is walking along a road at a leisurely pace one sees and smells this dumping which is much more widespread than we think.
A neighbour of mine who discovered an amount of material dumped on his property rummaged through it until he found an address. Subsequently he got a car and trailer, loaded up the offending material, took it to the house of the person and dumped it in a beautifully manicured front lawn in broad daylight in the presence, presumably, of the offending individual. I used to think that person had gone a little too far but now I realise it is an extremely widespread problem that needs to be addressed. Even if the problem is not always obvious, dumping is an appalling attack on the landscape and the beauty of the country.
I recall another occasion where a person rummaged through material and found correspondence addressed to an eminent professional person. If I thought that person was aware that the material was dumped in the particular beauty spot. I would despair of any council or State authority succeeding in bringing home to people the necessity to refrain from this type of activity and to show some respect for the countryside. I am amused when I hear people say that all the problems stem from the education system and that teachers ought to be able to instil a civic spirit in young people and persuade them that this activity is undesirable and unacceptable.
I laboured in a classroom for 20 years. Any person who has had that experience will say that you come to realise how little influence you have in a great many ways. Other major influences on the lives of young people greatly outweigh that of the teacher. Perhaps teachers become disheartened because their efforts are not reflected in the views of the community at large and often could be forgiven for thinking that their admonishments fall on deaf ears.
To solve this problem there must be community awareness and response with the aid of FÁS or other schemes. There is, of course, a role for local authorities. I am not suggesting that the comhairle should have a direct role, I am merely trying to illustrate the difficulty and the enormous job of the comhairle in raising awareness in the area of landscape and environment.
In section 12 there appears to be a prohibition on the council accepting a gift of land. As the reason is not apparent I ask the Minister to explain it. I am also interested in section 18 — not that it will ever affect me — in that it appears that the provisions concerning staff of the council who may become members of the Oireachtas are not in accordance with the current practice for other civil servants.
I welcome the Minister's undertaking to employ specialist staff: an archaeologist, an ecologist and an architectural historian. I am sure they will contribute greatly to the work which the comhairle will be able to undertake and to the efficacy of its efforts. In appointing members to the council the Minister will appoint people with knowledge and expertise. He has been here long enough to know that no matter whom he appoints he will leave himself open to all kinds of attacks and accusations. I am sure he will appoint people who have shown commitment and who have expertise in the heritage area. We are fortunate to have a great many people with those qualifications.
It has become fashionable to criticise the Office of Public Works and to fault its every move. It has been unfortunate to have been involved in high profile cases and wrongly criticised by environmentalists for its involvement.
And by the Minister, who is one of its most vocal critics.
Nevertheless, while all public authorities must be open to scrutiny the attacks on the Office of Public Works — not by the person mentioned by Deputy Dukes — by many other people have been unbalanced and unfair. We need to acknowledge publicly that excellent work has been done over a long period by the Office of Public Works. In almost every county one could point to the successes. At the end of the day, history will judge them to have been extremely successful. In my constituency there was a controversy in which, unfortunately, people took unnecessarily adversarial stands. I hope that controversy will soon be resolved.
We fail to acknowledge the excellent, unsung, contribution which ordinary people have made to the preservation of our heritage and landscape. I am reminded of farming practices in my own area where the depredation, referred to by Deputy Deasy and others, has not happened to the same extent as in other parts of the country. That is because people have a genuine concern for the environment and archaeological remains and have made a conscious decision to preserve them, sometimes at considerable personal cost. I do not think that people outside the area who take lofty stands on environmental issues have ever been prepared to acknowledge the enormous contribution these people made. sometimes on a relatively small scale, within their own area of influence. In the overall picture their contribution is worthwhile and ought to be acknowledged.
A number of speakers mentioned the effect of some of the new agriculture schemes and, indeed, previous schemes, on the rural landscape. I am reminded of the rural environmental protection scheme and the CFP scheme which are just beginning. I argue strongly that there needs to be basic differences, from one area to another, in the way these schemes are administered. The comhairle should have a strong advisory role in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry in relation to these matters.
A number of speakers referred to the question of access and the problems of public liability. That matter will be addressed, to some extent, in a Bill which will come before the House the week after next. It forms the framework of legislation on which the kind of law which will meet the difficulties of property owners can be based.
The appearance of farmyards has changed substantially. The visual impact of some modern farm buildings have made an enormous difference to the landscape in terms of their appearance. We also need to refer to the intellectual heritage of the country.
A number of speakers referred to the Irish language and the fact that Bord na Gaeilge is charged with responsibility in this area. I read in an article in The Irish Times yesterday that the number of students in arts, studying Irish, has increased from 169 to 510, in the Universities of Galway, Cork and UCD over a three year period from 1992 to date. This is an enormous increase and reflects the views of Deputy Deasy that the Irish language is beginning to gain a level of acceptance it did not previously enjoy. It is interesting to note that more than three times the number of people are studying the language at third level within a three year period.
I recall discussions during the late 1960s about the likelihood that the Gaeilge departments of universities would have to be disbanded for lack of interest and lack of students who would be interested in pursuing the courses. Unfortunately, that is a reflection of an interest among a relatively small group and does not appear to be widely reflected in interest in the language in the community. Perhaps a certain exclusivity has crept into the usage of Irish and how it is perceived by ordinary people. That is a difficulty that needs to be addressed.
The national folk collection which is a tremendous body of material is not on public display but is worthy of display. It will require a large premises and much expense will be involved.
The Minister indicated his intention to introduce a museums Bill, which I presume will deal with this area. This important area of heritage has been neglected in the sense that it has not been available for public inspection by people who have an interest in it.
Debate adjourned.