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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 6 Dec 1994

Vol. 447 No. 6

Statements Relating to Events of 11 to 15 November 1994.

I wish to first of all give my personal account of the sequence of events between Monday, 14 November and Wednesday, 16 November, surrounding the statement to the Dáil which I made on the Tuesday on the handling of the Brendan Smyth case in the Office of the Attorney General.

I have already addressed the issue surrounding the appointment of the former Attorney General to the Presidency of the High Court in my Dáil statement on Tuesday, 15 November last and also in the further statement which I made in the course of the confidence debate in the Dáil on Wednesday, 16 November.

For the record, may I say again that I did not receive any advance signal from the former Tánaiste, Deputy Spring, that the decision to nominate the former Attorney General, for appointment as President of the High Court, would lead to a withdrawal from Government by the Labour Party Ministers. It is a fact that I phoned the former Tánaiste shortly after the Government meeting on the afternoon of Friday, 11 November and told him that the appointment with the President — to give effect to the Government decision — had been arranged for 5.30 p.m. that evening. This was on the basis of arrangements agreed between the Government Secretariat and the Áras in the normal way. When I spoke to him on that occasion, the former Tánaiste did not indicate any objection to the course of action proposed.

I spoke to Deputy Spring again by telephone following my arrival at the Áras that evening, prior to the appointment ceremony. Deputy Spring, who initiated that particular contact, told me he would be advising the press that Labour Ministers had absented themselves from Government for that decision. I did not demur from the line. I can assure the House that in our short conversation there was no reference to a breach of trust of any kind.

The former Tánaiste in his speech on 16 November referred to what I said in my speech on Tuesday, 15 November about Government procedures not permitting the recording, in the official Government minutes, of dissenting voices at a Government meeting. I said on that occasion: "members of the Government absenting themselves from a decision may be recorded, if they so wish". Deputy Spring made the point that the "Government Procedure Instructions" contain nothing to this effect.

What Deputy Spring apparently overlooks is that not all Government procedures and practices are of necessity set out in the "Government Procedure Instructions" document. In my speech on Tuesday, 15 November, I did not refer to that document, but to Government procedures generally. I assure the House that such procedures, while not permitting the recording of dissenting voices at a Government meeting, because of the constitutional requirement of collective Cabinet responsibility, do permit the recording of nonattendance in the case of individual items on the agenda of any Government meeting, should Ministers so request.

I may add, of course in respect of the Government meeting on Friday, 11 November, that Labour Ministers did not make any such request. That said, I fully accept that they may well have been unaware of the procedural practice, which I have mentioned, which evolved in the course of a previous Coalition Government.

When the former Attorney General, Harry Whelehan, presented his report on the Smyth case to the Cabinet on the Friday of his appointment the explanations which he gave were accepted in good faith by Ministers, even though most felt the delay deeply unsatisfactory. It was felt that further questions needed to be aired and answered in public, something to which I was always ready to agree.

Because I had to answer questions in the Dáil on the following Tuesday, the Minister for Justice, Deputy Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, on my behalf, asked the new Attorney General, Mr. Eoghan Fitzsimons, to examine in detail the file relating to the Brendan Smyth case.

It must be recalled that all the events I shall now describe took place against a background of political crisis, with Labour not attending Government meetings and rumours of an imminent election and with strenuous bona fide efforts being made by Fianna Fáil to establish the Partnership Government which we all agreed had worked successfully. There was also a great deal of public concern about child sex abuse, as shown in the handling of the Smyth case, on which I was concentrating.

On Monday, I had an initial private meeting with the Attorney General in my office. A substantial part of our conversation was taken up by a discussion of my request to him to examine whatever restructuring was needed in his office, to ensure that the unacceptable delays in the Smyth case would never occur again.

I gather it has been suggested that the Attorney General paid a private visit to my apartment in Ballsbridge some time on Monday to apprise me of the Duggan case. I wish to state categorically that the Attorney General never set foot in my apartment.

Later that afternoon, the Attorney General met Ministers and mentioned a number of difficulties that had emerged relating to his predecessor's report, in particular his discovery of another case, established at the meeting to be the Duggan case.

In relation to the first, it was pointed out by the Attorney General, by way of caveat to his own views, that his chief legal adviser disagreed fundamentally with him about the legal significance of the Duggan case and disputed that it was a previous case requiring detailed consideration of section 50 bbb of the Extradition Act. My recollection is having asked the Attorney General to go away and clarify that matter and to let me have in writing his definite view.

By way of corroboration of this, a memorandum was sent up to my Department on the Duggan case some time on Monday evening, which I do not recall seeing or being given and which was not circulated. However, as it is in writing, it may reasonably be taken as a fair reflection of what the Attorney General said at that time. The document began by quoting the advice given to the former Attorney General on 25 October by his chief legal assistant to the effect that the Smyth case "was the first in which the meaning and extent of that provision had required consideration".

The following sentence in the memorandum, corrected in red ink, states: "It does not appear that the above was accurate...the question of lapse of time was arguably going to be a live issue in the Smyth case, whereas arguably it presented little difficulty in the Duggan case. Mr. Russell is very strongly of this view." There was then a rather technical legal paragraph about the question of whether "the Section in the Act" could said to have been "applied". The final paragraph conceded that "no issue arose as to the ability of the accused in question to successfully rely on the provision in the Duggan case". In other words, that memorandum conceded that no substantive issue arose in relation to the Duggan case.

If the Duggan case was firmly established to be a previous case, then it would be necessary for the Minister for Justice and the Minister of State in my Department to make statements to the Dáil to correct misleading replies based on advice provided to them from the Attorney General's office. The Minister for Justice was able to make a statement to the Dáil at her first available opportunity on Wednesday——

Tuesday evening.

——and will make a further statement in this debate.

Supplementary questions on Tuesday evening——

The Attorney General has his own recollection of events. He had his own clear view of the importance of the Duggan case. We did not regard it as such a clear-cut issue on the basis of the information available to us. I considered it right that the Attorney General should inform the former Attorney General of these developments. Despite the Attorney General's views on the matter, I was not then necessarily acquiescing in a definite interpretation of them. He would ascertain his views, and was to suggest that he might at least put off being sworn in as President of the High Court the following day for a few days while the situation was being clarified. I understand Mr. Whelehan gave a statement of his comments in writing on these developments to the Attorney General on his own initiative the following day before noon.

I am, therefore, confirming that subsequently I had a long conversation with the Attorney General on the evening of Monday 14 November in my office. During that conversation, we discussed a number of matters, including the situation in the Attorney General's office, the swearing in of the new President of the High Court, the conflict in view in relation to the "application" of section 50 (2) bbb of the Extradition Act, the risk of bringing the Judiciary into public controversy and the possible threat to the peace process from the current instability which was my overriding concern at that time. The Attorney General's mind was no doubt focused on the Duggan case and the purely legal definitions but people will understand that the broader situation I described was to the forefront of my mind. People will always have different recollections of events. I respect other people's recollections and I know they respect mine and those of my colleagues.

I have received on Monday some very disturbing reports about the consequences of a change of Government for the stability of the ceasefire, not I hasten to add from the leadership of Sinn Féin but from a number of sources in both communities. I was not alone in taking such considerations seriously. No less a newspaper than the moderate Unionist Belfast Telegraph wrote an editorial describing the upheaval which was forcing me from office as a disaster. I did not feel that the communications of such information impugned on the independence of the Judiciary since the entire controversy related to his actions prior to becoming a judge and not to any action taken by him as a judge.

In the meantime, a speech or formal reply to parliamentary question was being prepared in my office with material on the Smyth case being supplied by the Attorney General's office. This material, supplied on Monday morning, made no reference to the Duggan case or any other previous case. Two drafts of my speech were sent to the Attorney General's office. A supplementary question was requested by the Minister for Justice to cover the question of a previous case, if it arose. The text of the reply to the supplementary question, which I received, is on the public record. I dealt at length in the Seanad with the publication of a copy of the reply which had two different types of handwriting on it. I do not have to comment further on the matter here except to say that all members of the Government were questioned about it and all the responses were negative. Indeed, I asked the Attorney General to question the members of his staff in his office and the response there too was negative.

They must have been anticipating the leak.

The Attorney General assures me that he does not consider the reply to the supplementary question to be inconsistent in any way with the letter he sent to me. The reason is contained in the letter which states that: "The contents of the second paragraph is the case that is effectively made by the senior legal assistant who dealt with the case". If I was to have made a statement about the Duggan case on Tuesday either as part of my statement on the Smyth case or as a reply to a supplementary, I would have needed clear draft speaking material.

I can only suggest that the draft reply, as internal evidence suggests, reflected persistent disagreement in the Attorney General's office about the real significance of the case. The reply would not have been enlightening, even if it had been incorporated in the main body of my speech. However, it was not given to this House and, of course, it is always a matter for somebody answering questions to decide what supplementary material they would use if the situation arose.

However, it was accompanied by a letter, which made clear the Attorney General's dissatisfaction with the enclosed reply, and which went into some detail and with some emphasis on the Duggan case. Unfortunately, the letter arrived in my office too late to be reflected in my speech, or for me to absorb, given that I was on my feet most of the time over the next four or five hours. I would point out that while the supplementary parliamentary question was held by my colleagues to be passed to me if needed, the letter was addressed to me and was for me, and not addressed to any of my colleagues.

As a matter of interest, I would point out that in the letter the Attorney General warned me strongly against misleading the Dáil on foot of Mr. Whelehan's report. I quote what the Attorney General said: "In my view it would be absolutely incorrect to inform the Dáil that this was the first time that the section was considered." It was considered — though not in prepared manner — in the Duggan case. It would also in my view be similarly incorrect to say that was the first time that the section was "applied". I must point out that I did not make any such misleading statement to the Dáil on 15 October. Indeed, I refused to accept that excuse for the delay in the handling of the Brendan Smyth case.

An issue has been made out of the following sentence in my Tuesday speech to this House: "The emergence of the Smyth case did not affect the integrity of the Attorney General, nor his suitability for high judicial office". This has been taken out of context, which was a paragraph recounting the history of the controversy prior to the appointment of Mr. Harry Whelehan. The present Attorney General has confirmed that even in the full light of all the facts the integrity of Mr. Harry Whelehan is not affected. With regard to suitability; that statement referred to a period before we began to acquire fuller insight into the internal problems in the Attorney General's office and the way particular matters were handled. Constructed in the past tense, it fell well short of being a renewed explicit endorsement, as of that Tuesday, of the Attorney General's suitability for high judicial office. Indeed, the whole tenor of my speech that day reflected deep concern and indeed growing anger at my discovery of the way many things had been handled there. The best I could do was explain why the reasons for the appointment had seemed good at the time.

Every one of the Cabinet members of both parties accepted the bona fides of Harry Whelehan not having been told, and the Attorney General's report, which was published and placed before the House last week, has confirmed that fact. It has confirmed that he was not told about the file, has confirmed that the Taoiseach was misled and, has confirmed that the Government was misled. That is the reality of the Attorney General's report which is clear-cut and unequivocal in its findings and in its conclusions.

When I received the letter on my return from the debate in the House — it was waiting on my desk — its seriousness at once became very apparent to me. I realised that I would have to make a new statement about it in the Dáil the following day and bring it to Members' attention at the earliest opportunity.

The Attorney General had a second communication with the President of the High Court later that evening with a mandate from me to inform him of what I would have to say to the Dáil the following day, and the conclusions that I would have to draw, and also to point out the given political implications of the situation arising.

On Wednesday, I was given a signed undertaking by the Leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Spring, at 10.22 a.m., that they would return to Government, if an agreed statement were made. He subsequently spoke privately with the Attorney General, after which he informed me within the hour that Labour felt unable to return to Government, apparently on the basis that I knew of the Duggan case on Monday, but withheld knowledge of it from the Dáil on Tuesday. I felt at the time that this was a totally unfair over-simplification of the situation, for the reasons that I have now more fully explained in this House. I would have liked him to sit down that time with the Attorney General, myself and members from both sides. This could have given us and this House the clarifications that are being sought today. I was anxious that we all sit down — all still members of the same Government — and thrash out with the Attorney General the whole position, not just an answer to a simple question.

To sum up, I did not consider that I was in possession of any definitive information on the Duggan case on Monday, nor were any of my colleagues, as demonstrated by the written memorandum received in my office, from which I have quoted. Our firm view was that we had not reached any firm conclusions prior to Tuesday evening. I respect the Attorney General's different view on this matter. I would point out that relevant information and cases have continued to come to light long afterwards. Much salient information has come through since as evidenced in the Attorney General's report. I must stress that I was not in possession of all the facts, or anything like it, on that particular day.

I must also ask the question whether the Duggan case has been invested with a somewhat exaggerated significance, as some legal opinion suggests. It seems ironic that the Government should be able to survive a badly bungled extradition case about which there was huge public concern, and rightly so, but that it was brought down by the omission to refer to an expeditiously conducted extradition case, which raised few serious legal issues. The issue is that neither I nor any of my colleagues tried to deceive or mislead the Dáil nor was there any conspiracy. The facts are that Fr. Smyth is serving his sentence and that the Duggan gentleman has served his sentence.

As for withholding information, I would like to turn to the lawyers who are Members of this House. Did I have the right to cast doubts or aspersions in public on the suitability of a very senior judicial figure, unless and until I felt satisfied I had clear and, above all, definitive legal advice on the matter? I wish to repeat categorically that I had no desire or intention of misleading the Dáil, never have and never would, nor do I believe it can be shown that I did so. As I said, full responsibility for what I say in the Dáil rests with me. I believe I have discharged that responsibility and that accountability to the fullest possible extent.

We must all now attend to the broader issues and the pressing need of the country for a new Government. I would appeal to all the parties in the House to make a final effort in that regard. The present situation with an interim Government is not satisfactory. I will continue to discharge my constitutional duties as long as required, and will consult with the parties if any big decisions should arise. It is not the ideal situation, it is not the ideal situation for confidence in this House. I will be only too glad to step over from this position if necessary and if the Members of the House who have a responsibility to put a Government together cannot do so I will then be forced to seek a dissolution of the Dáil. I believe there is enough common sense among Members of the House to try to put a Government together, but if that fails we will have to come together and agree about the timing of the next general election.

I came here today to set down for the record of this House, to the best of my ability, the events surrounding the Smyth case, the Duggan case, the resignation of the Taoiseach and the President of the High Court as well as connected matters. In my public comments I stated, from the beginning, that there was no conspiracy to mislead the Dáil, no deliberate attempt at any stage to suppress or conceal information, and that much of the difficulty was caused by legal complexities and divergence of legal opinions. We must all remember that our greatest sympathy and support must go to the victims of abuse, and to their families, and that our priority must be, as far as humanly possible, to ensure that events of such trauma and tragedy do not occur again. I am committed to doing all in my power to implement programmes that will safeguard the innocent, educate the growing child, counsel and support the victims and apprehend and treat the perpetrators.

The pressure on the victims and their families has been and continues to be a heavy load and I apologise to them for the fact that "the system" let them down in not dealing with the extradition warrant expeditiously, and particularly in leaving the perpetrator free for seven months to continue his evil work. There was also tremendous pressure on the Taoiseach, the Ministers and the new Attorney General in trying to give a true and clear picture of what happened in the Smyth case, and in trying to decide the exact significance of the Duggan case. I will tell the facts as I know them. I prepared my address to the best of my ability and with the firm intention of laying it plainly before the House and the nation.

From the first moment I was selected as Leader of Fianna Fáil I made it clear that I wanted to lead a party of openness, honesty, integrity and honour and I am surrounded with people in my party who exemplify those high qualities. Nothing we did in this entire case was done with the intention of misleading the Dáil, deceiving the public, or distorting the facts, even though that is claimed. I would not stand over any cover up, nor would my Fianna Fáil colleagues. Everything done was done to ensure the full truth was available, the truth of the Smyth file, the significance of the Duggan case, and the organisation of the Attorney General's Office.

Before I begin my account of recent events I want to state categorically that the Fianna Fáil Party wants to have the complete version of all these events made available to the public, and as leader of the party, it was and is my wish to fully co-operate in that process. We are all reluctant, because of the costs, to go the route of another tribunal. We were prepared to look at a committee of the House to do the report, but I am prepared to go along with any suggestion for an objective examination of the facts and issues surrounding the events of 14 to 16 November. Neither Fianna Fáil nor I have anything to hide.

A meeting took place in the Taoiseach's Office early on Monday, 14 November. The purpose of the meeting was, among other things, to advise the Taoiseach on the statement to be made the following day in the House.

Between 12.00 p.m. and 1.00 p.m. the Attorney General attended the meeting at the request of the Minister for Justice. She had already informed those present that she had requested the Attorney General to conduct an inquiry into the delay in the Smyth case, and he had expressed some concerns relating to the advice given by the former Attorney General.

Following his introduction the Attorney General informed us he had conducted a preliminary examination of the relevant documents relating to the Smyth case. I did not take any written notes, so the following is my best recollection of what we were told by the present Attorney General.

He said that following his brief examination, he had come to the preliminary view that the Smyth case may not have been the first case in which the "lapse of time" had been considered. He referred to an earlier case, which was later identified as the Duggan case, where in his opinion the question of delay had been considered. He emphasised that there were legal complexities involved and referred to the significance of the legal definition of the word "applied", in the context of whether the relevant section of the Extradition Act had previously been "applied." He seemed to dwell on the distinction between the words "considered" and "applied".

He informed us that the senior legal assistant in his office, with 20 years or more experience, violently disagreed with the opinion he had just expressed to the meeting. The Attorney General was asked whether he had discussed this question with the former Attorney General and he said he had not. It was suggested by the Taoiseach he should do so and he agreed.

For my part, I was content to await the clarification from the Attorney General of what appeared to me, to be a very unclear exposition. I left the meeting at 2.30 p.m. and did not return until later that evening at about 7.00 p.m. The Attorney General left before me. No further discussion on the Attorney General's advice took place in my presence and the meeting ended at approximately 2.30 a.m.

I wish to put on record two matters to which the Attorney General referred in a letter he submitted to me. He said there were two documents we had not referred to, one of which was a note on the Duggan case he drafted some time later which was not made available to my colleagues. The Attorney General states he left it in the room in which we were working and we have no reason to disbelieve him. The note states:

1. Mr. Russell, in advising the Attorney General in relation to the Smyth case on 25th October 1994 advised him inter alia as follows:

"It was therefore your obligation to consider, inter alia, the application of the case of paragraph (BBB) of section 50 (2) of the 1965 Act (inserted by the 1987 Act). This case was the first in which the meaning and extent of that provision had required consideration. Its far-reaching effect on other cases — such as high profile subversive cases — is obvious”.

2. It is clear that the above advice to Mr. Whelehan was incorrect. The section had been considered in the Duggan case (see accompanying memorandum) and it was decided that the lapse of time in that case was not such as to warrant the Attorney General deciding not to extradite. The point should of course be made that the delay in the Duggan case was some 3 to 4 years from date of the commission of the offence whereas in the Smyth case the warrants were concerned with offences which had been committed from 20 to five years previously. That being the case it is clear that the question of lapse of time was going to possibily be a real issue in the Smyth case whereas arguably it presented little difficulty in the Duggan case. Mr. Russell is very strongly of this view.

3. In the memorandum presented to the Taoiseach by the Attorney General during the past few days it was stated inter alia as follows: In relation to the above provision of the Extradition Act relating to delay:

"This provision (which owes its present form to an amendment introduced by Deputy Seán Barrett) had never had to be applied until this case. My interpretation of its meaning and effect would establish the criteria which would be applied in this Office to future requests whether for simple burglary or for serious subversive offences."

The above statement says that the provision "had never had to be applied until this case". As no decision was taken in relation to these warrants the provision was in fact not applied in this case. In any event it would be for a court to "apply" in deciding whether or not extradition could be resisted on the basis of delay or lapse of time pursuant to the section. The provision was of course considered with respect to its applicability to the case.

4. At no stage was the attention of the Attorney General drawn to the existence of the Duggan case and he had no recollection of it. This is understandable in the sense that no real issue arose as to the ability of the criminal question to successfully rely on the provision in the Duggan case. The issue was raised in fact by the foreign authorities. It was considered by Mr. Hamilton of the Attorney General's Office. His recommendation to the Attorney General was that the delay in the Duggan case was not such as to warrant the Attorney General deciding not to permit extradition.

We did not leave that note at the meeting, but we have no reason to differ in any respect from the Attorney General's.

I now refer to the preparation of the Taoiseach's speech on that Tuesday morning. Some short time before the commencement of the Dáil session the Attorney General arrived. He presented to the Minister for Justice what I subsequently discovered was a letter, dated 15 November, addressed to the Taoiseach, together with a document containing an answer to the question, "Was this the first time that the section was applied?" A copy of that parliamentary reply was included in the documentation given to me.

A copy of a letter also dated 15 November from Mr. Whelehan to the Attorney General was forwarded during that Tuesday. In his letter Mr. Whelehan repeats in summary form the views already expressed by him, that the Smyth case was the first case in which the full application of section 50 (2) (bbb) was considered. I was completely unaware of the Attorney General's letter during the Tuesday debate and did not become aware of it until the Taoiseach put it on the record of the House on Wednesday.

I now know that these documents were handed to the Minister for Justice within minutes of the commencement of that day's Dáil session. Following a subsequent examination of the three documents I am satisfied that, read together, they disclosed conflicting legal opinion.

Because I was due to sit beside the Taoiseach during the debate, I was handed a folder containing the parliamentary questions and replies and answers to anticipated supplementary questions. It was my function to hand the appropriate replies to the Taoiseach as questions were asked in the Dáil. It was not my function to read them or analyse them, just to hand them over. Whereas I was aware I had among the documents in the folder a document with an answer to the question "Was this the first time that the section was applied?", in the event the question was not asked. During the interval between the completion of the Taoiseach's speech and Question Time, I handed the folder to the Taoiseach. When he had completed answering the questions he returned the folder to me and I brought it out of the Dáil Chamber. Since then I have examined the document containing the answer to the anticipated supplementary question. It is a type-written document without any handwriting on it whatsoever.

To complete the account of Tuesday evening, I attended a function, returned to my office and went home shortly afterwards. On arrival at Government Buildings on Wednesday morning, 16 November, I was informed of the full significance of the Attorney General's advices, and that it was the intention of the Taoiseach immediately to inform the Dáil accordingly. I was told the Labour Party had already been informed. I had no involvement in the drafting of the Taoiseach's speech to be delivered that morning.

During the Taoiseach's speech I heard for the first time the contents of the Attorney General's letter. I have since learned that seemingly the letter passed to me in the House, among other documents, and the letter read into the record by the Taoiseach differed materially. I understand the Attorney General modified his opinion.

It is small wonder that I and my colleagues were confused, with so much conflicting legal advice and changing of views in a very short space of time on complex legal matters. After the Dáil rose, I read a copy of the letter and saw on the document containing the answer to the supplementary question the handwritten note "Minister see X under in case this should arise". At that time on Wednesday evening — so far as I was aware — this was the first time I had seen either document. I have since been informed that these two documents were passed to me, via the Chief Whip, from the civil servants who were present in the Dáil Chamber. I have absolutely no recollection of this. I certainly did not read either of those documents in the House on the Tuesday.

I wish to stress that there was no attempt by me or anybody else to mislead the Dáil on Tuesday, 15 November, to mislead our former colleagues in Government, or the public. I believe that when the significance of the Attorney General's advices became clear to my colleagues, on the Tuesday evening after the Dáil session, a senior member of the Labour Party was informed. The Dáil was informed on the Wednesday, the first available opportunity.

No doubt it will be suggested that, even though my Fianna Fáil Government colleagues were aware of the Attorney General's advices on the Tuesday evening, and although they so informed members of the Labour Party, it was not disclosed to them that this advice was first available to the Fianna Fáil Government Ministers on Monday, 14 November. In response to this I can only repeat what I have already said. The advice given to us on Monday followed a preliminary examination of the relevant documents. There were complex legal issues involved and explained to us, as I have outlined. The Attorney General and his senior legal assistant disagreed on the interpretation of the section. Further inquiries were continuing, including a suggested contact with Mr. Whelehan — which obviously happened because he sent a letter back the following day. These inquiries were not completed and so we did not have a clear picture of their significance.

I am also satisfied from an investigation conducted by me, and on my behalf, that the true and full significance of the Attorney General's advice did not crystallise until an examination of the Attorney General's letter of Tuesday, 15 November, had been carried out, after the Taoiseach had made his speech in the Dáil. In those circumstances I suggest that any fair analysis of these facts will show that there was no attempt to mislead the Dáil, the public or our former Labour Party colleagues.

In recounting the events of the past few weeks it is important to consider the immense pressure on the new Attorney General. Although only appointed, he was immediately asked for urgent responses to very many queries. He was approving drafts of pertinent replies and speeches. He had to ensure that at all times the information being delivered was technically and legally correct.

Almost immediately on his appointment Mr. Eoghan Fitzsimons SC was instructed by the Minister for Justice to conduct a full and detailed investigation of the file on the Brendan Smyth case. This report was brought to a specially convened Government meeting on Wednesday, 30 November. That meeting also considered the report of the review group —"the three wise men" as they are known — into the operation of the Attorney General's office.

The thorough report on the Brendan Smyth case has been available to the House since Thursday last. I do not intend to quote at length from this report today. I am sure most Members of the House have digested its contents in full at this stage. However, as politicians, it is important that we reflect calmly on certain of the conclusions: 1. the seven months delay was totally unacceptable — this is, I am sure, the view of all Members of the House, so let us lay this one to rest; 2. the only person to know of the warrant was official A — this is not trying to pin blame on civil servants, it is a fact established by the Attorney General; 3. there was no evidence of outside influence in the delay — let us finally scotch the rumour machine on this issue which was in overdrive in the House in the past few weeks; 4. inaccurate information was given to the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice and the Chief Whip. Allowances must be made for that; and, 5. the office procedures were seriously defective.

With regard to the Attorney General's report of yesterday and the Taoiseach's comments today, I want to make a few remarks. Yesterday morning in Brussels I received a copy of a letter from the Leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Dick Spring. In it he asked me to have the Attorney General give the full facts of any contacts he had had with the former president of the High Court, any discussions that took place and the context of his approaches to the former president. This I attended to immediately and set in train the preparation of such information as we now have.

Deputy Spring, I am sure, will appreciate that it took me some time to do that, bearing in mind travelling, having to speak to the Taoiseach who was on official business. I was attending ECOFIN business. I want to make it quite clear that there was no delay on the part of the Taoiseach. There were reports to the effect that the Taoiseach had the document, that I had not got the document, and so on. There was no more than an approximate 40 minute delay in the Taoiseach's faxing the document to me.

I do not want to go through all of that document, other than to say that the Attorney General set down four points in relation to 14 November in which he made his position clear. He quoted the discussion which the Taoiseach outlined to the House today, about which he had a long conversation with the Taoiseach. He mentioned that various issues were discussed; he said that he spoke to the former Attorney General in regard to the postponement of the swearing-in and about the issues in respect of which he had gone to Mr. Whelehan's house.

On a point of order, may I ask the Tánaiste whether he would publish the report now and circulate it to Members of the House, rather than read out selected quotations?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Does it not make sense to publish it?

I expect I will not be held to time, representing as I do the largest party in the country, a party with honour and dignity. I want to outline to the House the full facts, provided I am not held to time.

Publish the report.

I will give the facts to the House. I will read it into the record and Members can study it.

Publish the report.

I will read it into the record. If Members want to listen, they will know.

The Tánaiste, please, without further interruption.

We are entitled to a copy of it.

The report begins:

Monday, 14 November, 1994:

1. At a time - which I believe to be in the late afternoon — on this day I took a call from the Minister for Justice. She informed me that the Department had made enquiries and that it had been indicated that if Mr. Whelehan wished to postpone his swearing-in for two or three days it would not be a problem.

2. Later I had a long conversation with the Taoiseach. Various issues were discussed. I informed him about my conversation with the Minister for Justice. He asked me, as Attorney General, to go to see Harry Whelehan in relation to a postponement of the swearing-in and about the Duggan case. I was to inform him that he, the Minister for Justice and the Chief Whip would be making statements regarding the Duggan case in the Dáil the next day. He asked me to impress upon him the serious implications of this for him and to consider his position. (In this regard I would mention that during the afternoon I had phoned Mr. Whelehan to tell him about the Duggan case. He did not recall it. Having heard the details he emphasised that its very existence demonstrated that he had produced warrants in cases like this in a speedy manner.) As stated, I was also to request Mr. Whelehan to, in any event, postpone or put off his swearing-in for two or three days — until after the debate.

3. Having phoned I arrived at Harry Whelehan's house at approximately 8.15-8.30 p.m. I gave him the message as set out above. Mr. Whelehan again reiterated that the Duggan case proved that he had processed this type of case speedily. He indicated that he could not assist. He would not be prepared to put back his swearing-in as requested.

4. I duly returned to the Taoiseach's Office and reported the result of my conversation to him.

On a point of order, the reading of that report at that speed is not adequate information for the House. I cannot understand why that report, which has been in the possession of the Tánaiste since last night, has not been copied and made available to all Members of the House. What tactic is the Minister engaging in by reading it in this rapid fire way, designed perhaps to ensure that people cannot take it in?

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I will go back and read it very slowly, if you wish.

Will you publish it?

I do not wish to be interrupted. Let me make my comments.

I do not wish to find myself involved in personal acrimony with anybody but we have a responsibility to the people to ensure that we know what we are discussing. The Tánaiste has had that report since last night. He could have copied it. Why did he not copy it and make it available to all Members to read before the debate?

There is a distinguished audience outside this House listening to this debate. Will the Chair confirm that if I read a report to this House, or a document that is not part of my speech, it will form part of the Official Report of this House?

That will not be available for three days in printed form. We need the information now.

In answer to the Tánaiste, the spoken word is recorded in this House.

I know that technically it is true that this will be included in a written report which will be circulated in three or four days time in printed form, or perhaps later tonight. However, we are being asked to consider this matter here and now. The Taoiseach and the Tánaiste have had this report since last night.

Deputy Bruton has made his point.

I have not received an answer.

The Deputy knows this in not a point of order. I ask him to resume his seat.

Let me make a point to be helpful.

On a point of order, it may be helpful to the House to know that it is my intention to circulate copies of last night's report with my speech as soon as I deliver it to the House.

Deputy Bruton has to speak first.

If Deputy Spring could circulate it, why could the Tánaiste not do so?

I welcome the information from Deputy Spring, but Deputy Bruton has to reply immediately after the Tánaiste and I do not think it acceptable that he should be expected to reply to the important detail which the Tánaiste is now putting into the record of the House. If Deputy Spring can furnish it to each Member of the House with his speech I see no reason the Tánaiste could not have taken steps to ensure that every Member of this House had it.

The point is made.

On a point of order——

Deputies will know that the Chair cannot assist in this matter.

On a point of order——

On Wednesday, 16 November the Taoiseach departed from his speech to read a letter.

Will Deputy Owen allow the debate to continue?

If that letter had been available to us across this House, perhaps the Tánaiste would not be in the situation in which he is. We did not see the Attorney General's letter until it was circulated after the debate.

Deputy Owen, please.

I am just trying to remind the Chair.

Let the Tánaiste continue uninterrupted.

The document has now been given to us, but not by the Tánaiste.

Will Deputies let the Tánaiste speak?

Is this accountability?

On a brief point of order——

If it is a point of order, but we are having interruptions which are not points of order.

Perhaps as the Tánaiste concludes reading from this document he might confirm to the House that his reading in this manner what the Attorney General has said directly contradicts what the Taoiseach said in regard to the importance attributed by the Government to the Duggan case.

If I were to put everything I wanted to put on the record into my speech it would take a very long time to prepare. The public at large will see that an effort by the Leader of Fianna Fáil to put the facts on the record is being blocked by the Opposition.

The Tánaiste will not give the facts.

Methinks he doth protest too much.

It suits the Opposition to talk about the facts but when they are put on the record it does not suit them.

Are the facts not in the report?

Charlie was right — you are the most devious.

Please let us conduct the debate in a civilised fashion.

A Deputy

Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile.

Let me continue:

Tuesday, 15 November

5. At about 10.15 p.m. I was called at home by the Minister for Social Welfare. He said that he was speaking on behalf of Fianna Fáil Ministers who were in Leinster House. I understand that the Taoiseach requested the Minister to contact me. I assumed that he was speaking for all Fianna Fáil Ministers. I understand from the Tánaiste that he was not present. I do not know who else was there.

6. The Minister informed me that there was a grave danger that the Peace Process would break down if the Taoiseach had to resign. He stressed the seriousness of this. He stated that it was the view of the Ministers that if Mr. Whelehan resigned the Taoiseach would not have to resign and that the Peace Process would, in consequence, survive. He then conveyed the Minister's request to me which was that I should transmit a message to Harry Whelehan. This was that the Peace Process would be endangered if Mr. Reynolds had to resign and that he should resign in the national interest.

7. I went immediately to Harry Whelehan's house, arriving at about 10.30 p.m. I gave him the message emphasising that I was simply a conduit. In this regard the Minister had stated that the Ministers considered that it would not be proper for them to approach a Judge directly with such a message, and that I as Attorney General, should be asked to convey it. Indeed Mr. Whelehan commented favourably on the propriety of the approach. Mr. Whelehan was not prepared to accede to the request.

8. I returned home and phoned the Minister at Leinster House with Harry Whelehan's response.

The above represents my recollection of my two visits to Mr. Whelehan. On reading the text, I am conscious of the implications of it for the Taoiseach and Ministers, particularly in so far as the visit of Monday, 14 November is concerned. In order that justice be done to all concerned, it seems to me that it is proper that I should make some observations in relation to the general events of the day in question.

On the Monday it appeared to me that the Fianna Fáil Ministers were behaving in a very disorganised manner. No one appeared to be in charge. At the meetings I attended, Ministers came in and out at will with some being absent for periods. Discussion involved a great deal of interruption. I am not at all surprised to hear that documents, one introduced by me on the Monday, and one provided on Tuesday morning regarding the Duggan case, were not circulated. [They are the documents I mentioned earlier.]

The confusion was added to by the manifest tiredness of all concerned. I am informed that this was due to long hours without sleep. All of these factors, in my view, probably put a serious question mark over the judgments of the Ministers and their capacity to make rational decisions at the time.

It seems to me that in the interest of justice and fairness, judgments in relation to the events at issue should take account of these matters. All concerned are human. It is human to err. Who has not made a mistake?

That is signed by Eoghan Fitzsimons and dated 5 December 1994.

It sounds like a psychiatric report.

Deputy Rabbitte would know.

Last night I handed some documents and papers to Deputy Spring in which I made some other remarks on behalf of the Taoiseach. I prepared these documents while the Taoiseach was travelling. Those were additional points not part of the report. The main point was that the Fianna Fáil Ministers all agreed that the implications of the Duggan case were not immediately clear when it was first brought to our attention late on Monday, particularly because of the different views of the Attorney General and his office and subsequently Mr. Whelehan about its significance.

It must be borne in mind that another serious issue was raised on Monday which, on further examination, was found to be invalid and was subsequently withdrawn late on Tuesday night. It was our declared intention to make statements on the Duggan case in the Dáil once a clear and definitive position could be established and given to us in writing. The requisite statements were made by the Minister for Justice and me at the first available opportunity on Wednesday. Not at any time was there a conspiracy among Fianna Fáil Ministers to conceal the truth or mislead the Dáil. I did not intend to mislead the Dáil. I acted in good faith at all times. The reference to nobody being in charge, refers to the periods during which the Taoiseach was out of the office as he was for a significant part of the day.

In the Attorney General's report of his contacts with the former President of the High Court, Mr. Harry Whelehan, he mentions a long conversation with the Taoiseach, a meeting between himself and Harry Whelehan and a letter of advice. I did not know of his conversation with the Taoiseach, of the Attorney General's meeting with Harry Whelehan or of the contents of that letter.

I referred to the two memoranda, one marked document A which I put on the record and document B entitled "Extradition Act, 1965, section 52 (bbb). I have no difficulty in placing that document in the Library. I understand it is already in the public domain and I will make it available to Deputy Bruton and to other Members if necessary.

Based on what the Taoiseach told me, and I believe him, he did not ask the Attorney General to request the resignation of Mr. Harry Whelehan, on Monday, 14 November nor did Fianna Fáil Ministers speak to the Attorney General on that day with a similar purpose.

During recent negotiations members of the Fianna Fáil Party demonstrated clearly in their suggestions for more open and democratic processes that they believe accountability should be at the top of any Government agenda. In the programme negotiated last week with the Labour Party, we agreed that it would be a priority of Government to re-establish confidence in the office of the Attorney General and ensure that there is not a future breakdown. We agreed also that the report of the high level group to examine the operations of the Attorney General's office should be published without delay. The group is to report in about a week's time. We agreed that fundamental changes will be instituted in the operation of the office to make it a modern fully effective branch of the Government service; that the position of the Attorney General will be a full time position; that the Attorney General, like all people appointed to high office in the State will report to a committee of the House; that the various organs of the State and holders of high office will be made answerable and accountable to the Legislature; that the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Governor of the Central Bank will report to the relevant Dáil committees; that Dáil Éireann will be given real powers to investigate matters of serious public concern and that a committee of investigation will be established to examine issues of serious public concern that arise from time to time.

Any fair minded person would have to agree that those innovations could add greatly to the transparency and accountability of our public institutions. My party discussed those innovations with the Labour Party and we believe they are worth introducing. They demonstrate Fianna Fáil's intentions and goodwill in this regard.

The Government moved immediately to improve the operation of the Attorney General's office. It is totally unacceptable to have such delays. We established a group to urgently review the operations of the office to make it more responsive to the needs of a modern society. It pointed out that there were serious shortcomings in the administration of the office, in the organisational structure and support system. Its final report stated that we should consider the appointment of a manager to control the operation of the office. The Government, conscious of the consequences of delay in this area moved immediately and seconded an Assistant Secretary from the Department of Justice to fill the management role and to follow through the recommendations of the three wise men when they become available.

On the letters sent by the Attorney General, as he wished me to mention them, I read out document A, which the Attorney General said he sent to the Fianna Fáil office. Members of the party do not recall it. There is no argument about that, but we did not have it. However we accept the word of the Attorney General in that regard and he sent us a copy of the document. My colleague, the Minister for Justice will refer to document B to which she has already publicly referred. I do not wish to say any more about it. The Attorney General referred to other statements regarding the reason he sent the letter which arrived in the House at 2.25 p.m. on Tuesday 15 November. It arrived after the Taoiseach had begun to speak, and it may or may not have been passed to me by the officials. However, I accept the word of senior officials who say that the letter was passed to me, but I did not read it that day. The Attorney General said that he understood that some of the references contained in that letter would have been included in the Taoiseach's speech and he referred to the period between 12 noon and 2.25 p.m. in that regard. The Attorney General wrote to me about that letter and the Minister for Justice will deal with it and quote the relevant sections.

I thank you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, for allowing me injury time to make these points. On behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party I agree to put all documents, references, letters and accounts on the record. Regarding setting up a structure to deal with this matter, the Government Chief Whip proposed that a Judicial person be appointed to deal with it. We were prepared to make ourselves available at short notice and, if necessary, to agree to debate the matter throughout tonight and tomorrow. We in Government are used to working through the night and that would not have been a great sacrifice. Rather than a political witch hunt, about which we are concerned, it would better serve the interests of public accountability if an independent judicial person were appointed to whom we would have made our case. That proposal has been rejected by a vote and we regret that. We accept democracy, orders and rules of the House and members of the party will make themselves available as required. Any documents that we have not recalled today will I am sure be mentioned. The party has nothing to hide and it will not hide anything.

I am proud of Fianna Fáil and its record.

This is not an Ard-Fheis.

May be the Deputy should listen to what I have to say. My party assumed office in bleak times and it remains a reforming party. Over the decades it set about changing and radically improving the economic and social conditions of the Irish people. No party nor any combination of parties can claim the same contribution to the growth of the nation, the development of health, education or welfare services or point to as much economic achievement. It is unpalatable to our critics and frequently ignored by our detractors that generations of Irish people have instinctively turned to the Fianna Fáil Party, particularly in times of crisis and they will do so again.

In recent days Fianna Fáil has been attacked and vilified. Accusations have been taken as proof. Any consideration of justice has been set aside. On behalf of the thousands of decent men and women the length and breadth of the country who are members of my party and the hundreds of thousands who voted for it, I resent and reject this vilification. We are a good party and work for good people.

When leadership of Fianna Fáil passed to me I spoke of the lessons to be learned from recent events. That was more than mere rhetoric. In spite of all the other preoccupations of recent days the proposals put forward in negotiations with the Labour Party by Fianna Fáil were substantial. We made radical proposals to reform Cabinet and the Ministers and Secretaries Acts. We suggested changes to create a more open and accessible administration. Those proposals allied with other reforms already outlined in the Programme for Government would, if implemented, have led to the most fundamental reform of the system of Government since the foundation of the State. They would have led to the more open, accessible and accountable system of Government about which all Members have been speaking. It is my desire that the next Administration will put those reforms into operation.

On behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party and its leader I want to state clearly that nobody in Fianna Fáil tried to shield or prevent the extradition of a child molester, nobody tried to hide the inadequacies in the Attorney General's office and nobody set out to deceive the Dáil, the Labour Party or the public, nor would there have been any motive for doing so. If mistakes were made, we acknowledge them and accept responsibility, and we will continue to do so.

It was a mistake to have appointed Harry Whelehan before the Tuesday debate. It negated the idea of partnership Government. We did not refer to the Duggan case in the Dáil because the question was not asked of the Taoiseach and because the two appointed Ministers did not get an opportunity to make their personal statements to the House.

That is not what you said on 14 November.

Please listen. The order for that time changed, therefore my colleagues could not make their statements. The Labour Party was not kept informed of events, causing confusion as matters unfolded, and that was a mistake. We have paid the price for all those mistakes, but we will not carry the can for the misrepresentations and slanders with which others, for their own agenda, may wish to lumber us. I have shown that we tried to do the right thing at all times, as I have done in this debate despite people trying to prevent me from putting matters on the record. When we get it wrong, we accept the blame and do not try to hide.

With my team of negotiators over the past week we agreed what would have been an exciting addition to the Programme for a Partnership Government. The partnership Government worked well. Our conscience is clear and we are ready to serve the nation, whether in Government or in Opposition. We will be glad of the opportunity to regroup to rejuvenate our party's strength and to steel our resolve to do what is in the best interests of the nation. We will co-operate in ensuring that any matters that have to be dealt with will be properly dealt with in due course. We await the verdict of the Dáil and will co-operate fully with it. We will continue to govern and will consult the other leaders, if necessary. As the Taoiseach said, he will carry out his role, and we are all privileged to work with him in doing so. We will accept the people's verdict, but we ask that justice and fair play be at least part of the considerations in this debate.

This whole sad tortuous series of events would not have occurred if the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and all the Fianna Fáil Ministers had not decided to appoint a very senior judge in the absence of the Labour Party Ministers. That breach of the essential partnership between parties in a Government is the source of the ills that have befallen many people whose reputations have been destroyed. The Government ended up in confusion because of a fundamental misjudgment. Every one of the Fianna Fáil Ministers endorsed an important judicial appointment in the absence of their Coalition partners, at the Cabinet table and that fundamental breach of trust — obviously it had been coming for quite some time — led to all the ills that have befallen the Fianna Fáil Party.

Having listened to this sad and humiliating series of events I cannot understand how anybody could have thought it would be possible to put this Government back together again. I cannot understand how anybody would have considered it possible or wise in the national interest. Having seen how Fianna Fáil Ministers behaved, in their original decision to push through the appointment of the President of the High Court in the absence of their Coalition partners, I cannot understand how anybody could have believed it was viable to restore those Ministers to office. I do not see how those Ministers could have functioned in a partnership Government on any important matter of State since they were so unable to understand the concept of partnership that they went ahead with the appointment which led to this tragic series of events for so many people.

We gather here today to discuss an issue of truth and trust. Truth and trust should underpin every human relationship. In our families, trust binds marriages together and is fundamental to the relationship between parents and children. The people base their everyday lives on trust. Children go to school trusting that their teachers will educate them. Parents place a similar trust in those teachers to do a good job. In hospitals patients trust their nurses and doctors to look after them. In business life, trust binds deals and partnerships together. Trade is founded as much on trust as on money. Jobs are created by employers who trust their employees to work honestly for their pay. Workers trust their employers to pay them a fair rate for the job.

The success of the peace process in Northern Ireland is based on trust and honesty between the various parties and Governments who have come together. The almost total lack of violence in Northern Ireland in recent weeks is underpinned by a trust, albeit sometimes a fragile one, between people of different views and beliefs. Trust and truth have saved many lives in Northern Ireland since September. What we saw in the collapse of this Government was a fundamental breakdown of the trust which underpins every viable human relationship.

Without truth we will not have trust. A Government must be based on truth. It must be open and seen to conduct its business in a way that inspires hope and confidence in the people who elect it. Our national Parliament should be seen and believed to be a source of honesty and openness. The cause of this crisis is a breakdown of partnership and, most importantly, the belief of Fianna Fáil Ministers that the truth should only be revealed by instalments, the whole truth should not be told the first day, as little information as possible should be given and information should only be given when it is forced out.

That is not so.

It was the failure to give frank answers to questions in the Dáil that led to the enormous expenses of the beef tribunal. There would not have been such a huge waste of taxpayer's money if honest and full answers had been given in the first place to Dáil questions. We have seen in the way the truth was only gradually revealed, bit by reluctant bit, the repetition of that characteristic of concealment of information that led to the enormous expense for the taxpayer of the beef tribunal. Unfortunately that is a characteristic of the Fianna Fáil Party, a characteristic which it must change and which it can more easily change on the Opposition benches.

They never will.

I am not saying Governments and politicians should never make mistakes. Few Members of this House would not look back on some action or statement they would now admit was wrong. We are only human and we all make mistakes, but if we make mistakes we must recognise them, face them honestly and ask for forgiveness. That is the very least the people should be able to expect from the men and women they elect to Dáil Éireann. We must offer our people a Government they will believe in, a Government they will trust, above all a Government of truth.

The choice is yours.

Hiding information from the Dáil lies at the heart of the issues we discuss here today. Yesterday's story in The Irish Times confirms that Fianna Fáil Ministers considered the Duggan case so important as to warrant a request to the President of the High Court to effectively resign by deferring his swearing in, on Monday, 14 November.

Deputies

That is not true.

I understand Mr. Whelehan was told that three Fianna Fáil Ministers would refer to the Duggan case in speeches the next day. That has now been confirmed in the report of the present Attorney General. However, he refused to resign and no mention of the Duggan case was made in the Dáil the following day. If the Duggan case was relevant to found a request to the President of the High Court to "consider his position" on the Monday it was relevant to be mentioned in the Dáil on the Tuesday but it was not. Who was responsible for the Taoiseach's speech which omitted a reference to the Duggan case? Who approved that speech? Did the Attorney General see that speech and, if so, and if he knew of the significance of the Duggan case and conveyed this to the President of the High Court, why did he not insist on a reference to the Duggan case being included in the Taoiseach's speech? Why did the other Fianna Fáil Ministers who knew of the significance of the Duggan case and that it was enough to justify a request to the President of the High Court to consider his position not insist on a reference to the Duggan case being included in the Taoiseach's speech? They did not and the reason is they believed — and believe — in the concealment of information, economy with the truth.

That is not good enough in political life and it will not serve any politician well if they continue on that principle.

There was concerted concealment of information from the Dáil and the people. My concern today is to ensure that the facts are fully known to establish political responsibility for what happened. There are questions to be answered and many so far have been answered with half truths or contradictions. We have had truth by instalments. Today and tomorrow we will have the full truth.

It would be helpful to this debate if full and frank answers were given at the committee when the questions are put. In answer to those questions we do not require any more juggling, prevarication, attempts to pass responsibility to somebody else, promises of information tomorrow or documents to be circulated later when it is too late. We need all the answers today and tomorrow and none postponed.

Many questions remain to be answered about the failure to include a mention of the Duggan case in the Taoiseach's speech on the Tuesday. We need to know who approved that speech.

There is a contradiction between the speaking note about the Duggan case which was not used by the Taoiseach — it did not mention the subject but referred to the matter covered in the Duggan case — and the covering letter sent with it by the Attorney General. How is it possible that such a contradiction could have occurred between a covering letter and the document it was covering? They contradicted each other.

An answer was prepared for the Taoiseach to a question which, by the admission of the Attorney General, did not answer the question. What business has any public servant preparing an answer to a question in the Dáil which, by his own admission, does not answer the question?

He was instructed.

That is the ethos which is unacceptable. He said, with reference to the speaking note which did not answer the question, "that is the best I can do". Who asked him to do his best? What was his best supposed to be? What were the criteria by which "best" was decided in this case? Was he asked to conceal information? We need to hear this directly from the present Attorney General. What did he mean when he said "that is the best I can do"? It is plain from the letter in which that phrase was used that the note prepared in his office for use by the Taoiseach did not answer the question he was asked. Why did this happen and who asked him to do this? Which Ministers conveyed this request to the Attorney General which led him to say that he had prepared an answer which did not answer the question but was the best he could do?

In the light of the revelations in The Irish Times yesterday fundamental and important questions now arise about the relationship between the executive and the Judiciary. Under the Constitution the removal of judges is exclusively a function of the Houses of the Oireachtas. The Government has, for all sorts of obvious compelling reasons, no right to ask for a judicial resignation. For a Government to ask for a judicial resignation — I am quoting authoritative legal opinion — is a breach of the Constitution. All those who participated in a request to the President of the High Court to resign engaged in a constitutional impropriety and involved themselves in a matter in which the Executive, the Government, had no right to involve themselves. The only bodies which are entitled to ask a judge to resign are the Dáil and Seanad; the Government — Ministers — and Attorneys General have no right under the Constitution to ask any judge to resign. Yet, that is what happened. All those involved in instructing the Attorney General to request Mr. Whelehan to resign engaged in something profoundly unconstitutional. We need the truth and we need it now.

The key questions to be answered are: after Mr. Whelehan was appointed by the President as President of the High Court was he approached with a suggestion or request that he should "consider his position"? The answer to that question is plainly "yes". Asking him to postpone the swearing in amounts effectively to the same thing.

The Taoiseach told us — the Attorney General confirmed this in his report — that in a long conversation he asked the Attorney General to see Mr. Harry Whelehan in relation to the postponing of the swearing in and the Duggan case. "I was to inform him [presumably, on the instructions of the Taoiseach] that he, the Minister for Justice and the Chief Whip would be making statements regarding the Duggan case in the Dáil the next day"; in other words the Duggan case was being waved over his head to induce him to resign.

The Taoiseach also asked the Attorney General to impress upon Mr. Whelehan the serious implications for him and to ask him "to consider his position". We all know that the term "consider your position" means "resign". By the Attorney General's evidence, the Attorney General and Fianna Fáil Ministers were involved in an unconstitutional procedure threatening a mention in the Dáil of a particular case in order to get a particular judge to resign. That is a most fundamental breach of the separation of powers and should not have happened.

Which Ministers were aware of this request to the Attorney General by the Taoiseach? All those Ministers need to be named. I ask in particular Deputies Bertie Ahern, Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, Michael Smith, Charlie McCreevy, Brian Cowen, Michael Woods, Joe Walsh and perhaps David Andrews if they were aware of this request by the Taoiseach to the Attorney General to make this entirely improper approach to the President of the High Court.

On a point of information, I already answered Deputy Bruton's question in my reply.

Will the Taoiseach indicate if any other party or persons were asked to make indirect contact with the President of the High Court?

Apart from the accounts already furnished to this House, is there available any private written account or minute kept by any other party to this series of events? Did the Attorney General, for example, keep a minute of all these conversations in addition to what he has placed in the note which has now been circulated? Did he keep any other notes in respect of the request that was made to him in regard to the speaking note on the Duggan case which he described as "the best he could do"? Has he any written record of what he was asked to do, in respect of which this was "his best"? If he had minutes on that subject he should make those available too.

I recognise that everybody in this sad series of events has been acting under enormous personal pressure. People have been fighting for what they consider to be their political lives. They had to make decisions at great speed without necessarily having time for reflection, but it is fair to say that is what Government is about. Government is about making decisions at great speed and the suitability of persons for high Government office is judged not on how they behave in times of calm when they have time to consult everybody but on how they make decisions under pressure.

Such as bringing in a budget.

I believe that the decisions made under pressure by the Fianna Fáil Ministers in this case show how profoundly unsuitable they are for office. It is fair to say that many of those involved operated much of the time with the most honourable of motives and I am sure all involved operated some of the time with the most honourable motives. In particular, the Attorney General had the courage to tell the Leader of the Labour Party the full facts of the case when asked to do so and he did not prevaricate or hide anything from him. That will be to his eternal credit. Furthermore, when he was asked to prepare a report on the matter he did so very promptly and effectively and that will also be to his credit, but as he himself said in his report people do make mistakes. Everybody can make mistakes. Serious mistakes were made in this case.

Now is the time to get all the answers. I will not comment in detail on the speeches of either the Taoiseach or the Tánaiste as there will be time for this tomorrow but will limit my remarks to two points in the Tánaiste's speech. In the course of his speech he said:

Based on what the Taoiseach has told me, and I believe him, he did not ask the Attorney General to request the resignation of Harry Whelehan on Monday, 14 November.

I put it to the Tánaiste that quite simply that is not true and is a direct contradiction of what the Attorney General has said in his own report which the Tánaiste read out. It is clear from that report that the Attorney General was requested to ask the then President of the High Court to consider his position. That means resign.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, may I make a brief point? The phrase "consider your position" can mean different things in legal terminology.

Charles J. Haughey called it standing aside.

I did not hear what the Tánaiste said. Perhaps he will repeat it?

I said that the words "consider your position" may not be what you and I understand when one gets into legal terminology.

As somebody in the legal field the words mean the same to everybody.

If I may repeat the Minister for Justice's response to Deputy Gay Mitchell, that is most certainly disingenuous. "Consider your position" means resign and I can say that as a person who can wear both hats, as a legal person and a non legal person.

I want to challenge another point in the Tánaiste's speech. He said: "The only person to know of the warrant was Official A". He is now identified as Mr. Matthew Russell. The Tánaiste continued: "This is not trying to pin blame on civil servants — it is a fact established by the Attorney General".

I believe that officials in the Department of Justice were aware of that warrant as well as people in the Chief State Solicitor's Office and I question why the Minister for Justice and the other Ministers involved did not ask other sources for information about this subject. I am convinced it is not true to say that only one person was aware of that warrant and that the Department of Justice and the Chief State Solicitor's Office were aware of the existence of that warrant.

I am glad that as a result of the Fine Gael Party's motion we will have a detailed question and answer session tomorrow where everybody involved will be able to answer fully. It is fair to those against whom accusations have been made as well as to those who have made the accusations that everybody should answer all the questions fully, quickly and honestly. I recognise that people have had to make decisions under pressure but in politics and in accountable Government it is necessary to make decisions quickly under pressure and we stand to be judged by the people on the way we conduct ourselves under pressure. Regrettably, the Fianna Fáil Ministers did not behave well under pressure in this case and I believe the House will have to pass judgment on them in this matter very soon.

I will refer to a number of matters raised in the course of the Taoiseach's speech to put the record straight from my point of view. The Taoiseach said he did not receive any advance signal from the former Tánaiste, Deputy Spring, that the appointment of Harry Whelehan would lead to a withdrawal of the Labour Party. That ignores completely the two letters I wrote to the Taoiseach on the previous night and the long and clear discussion which we had in Cabinet on that day. I am prepared to publish both those letters if required. He said also that I did not proffer any objection to his going to Áras an Uachtaráin but I do not believe I had a right to proffer any objection to his going to Áras. My objections were made strongly in the course of one of the longest Cabinet discussions we had in the past 22 months. The Taoiseach said also that I had told him I would be advising the press that Labour Ministers had absented themselves from Government for that decision but that there was no reference to a breach of trust. I think the Taoiseach will be aware that when he contacted me from the Áras I clearly indicated to him that I would be consulting with my parliamentary party at the earliest opportunity on account of the serious situation which had developed because of our leaving the Cabinet room. I now know it is a fact that at a subsequent Cabinet meeting the minutes of the Friday meeting were amended to record the Labour Minister's withdrawal. The Taoiseach, when commenting on Mr. Whelehan's report, said:

It was felt that further questions needed to be aired and answered in public, something to which I was always very ready to agree.

Likewise this ignores the hand-written letter sent to me by the Taoiseach on Thursday evening which said that the Cabinet room was the only appropriate forum in which to question the Attorney General.

Since this House met last week, detailed negotiations have taken place between the Labour Party and the Fianna Fáil Party. Those negotiations are now over, ended as a result of the discovery of one more piece of misleading information. I want to outline to the House the circumstances surrounding the ending of those negotiations.

First, however, I want to say those negotiations were entered into in good faith — I believe by all the participants. They were based on the belief that a stable and effective Government was necessary, and that it was possible for a new Government to confront and solve some of the problems encountered by the old.

Specifically, in the negotiations we had agreed on a wide range of far-reaching reforms, as the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party has said, designed to put accountability on top of the agenda for all future Governments. Those reforms included: freedom of information legislation covering the entire public sector; an agreement to hold a referendum on Cabinet confidentiality; reform of the Attorney General's office; provisions to ensure that a range of public office holders, including the Attorney General and the Director of Public Prosecutions would be accountable in future to Oireachtas committees; reform of the Official Secrets Act; radical changes in the way in which the Dáil operates as a legislative and as an investigative body; strengthening the office of the Ombudsman and widening the remit of that office; abandonment of recent increases in ministerial pay; the establishment of a serious fraud office; new measures to increase the right of access of citizens to information about rights and entitlements and reform of the Ministers and Secretaries Act to place the whole issue of accountability in a modern context.

That is a long list and I want to make it clear to this House that the Fianna Fáil negotiators played a full part in putting forward ideas.

Underpinning the negotiations was an agreement in principle that we would have to find a mechanism to enable Dáil Éireann uncover all the facts in relation to the Brendan Smyth affair and its political aftermath. Towards the end of the negotiations the Tánaiste, Deputy Ahern, and I were discussing the proposition that a motion would be put to this House prior to the formation of Government, and that this motion would lead directly to the establishment of a committee with wide-ranging powers of inquiry.

In tandem with that, the new Government was to take whatever steps were necessary to ensure that all relevant persons — Ministers, former Ministers, legal advisers, and officials — and all relevant documents and records of all transactions, were made available to that committee, and that no question would be unanswered at the end of the day. The Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party and I were both committed to this powerful inquiry.

However, that agreement was predicated on the assertion by Fianna Fáil Ministers that whatever information they had been given on the Monday before the Dáil debates of 15 and 16 November, they had failed to appreciate the full significance of that information. They themselves have insisted that if they misled the House they did so inadvertently.

Clearly, those assertions were undermined by The Irish Times story yesterday. The main revelation in that story had been to suggest that Fianna Fáil Ministers were more aware of the significance of the Duggan case on Monday, 14 November, than they had ever admitted. It also suggested that the Duggan case had been used to try to persuade Harry Whelehan to resign on the night of Monday, 14 November.

It has been common knowledge, of course, that Fianna Fáil Ministers knew of the Duggan case before the Dáil debates of November 15 and 16 but, as I have said, they have always insisted that they were not aware of its true significance.

At noon yesterday, I wrote to the Tánaiste, Deputy Ahern, requesting a full account by the Attorney General of all relevant information in relation to The Irish Times news story. After 12 hours, I was supplied with a copy of the Attorney General's report. It was given to me on the basis that I would not publish it until the Taoiseach was in a position to put out a statement that he was preparing, to “clarify” aspects of the Attorney General's report.

The Attorney General's report supplied to me was a very guarded, legally-prepared document, which dealt strictly with the Attorney General's involvement in transactions involving Mr. Harry Whelehan. It included material aimed at suggesting that human error was involved.

In addition, I have been supplied with a copy of the statement prepared by the Taoiseach. So far, neither of these documents have been published. I am, therefore, circulating copies of them with this speech.

Taking both documents together, and despite the limited nature of the Attorney General's report, the following was clear: The Irish Times story was essentially true, even if not correct in every detail; documents, as well as oral information, were supplied to the meeting of Fianna Fáil Ministers by the Attorney General in relation to the Duggan case on that Monday; the Attorney General is clear in his report that it was intended on Monday that Fianna Fáil Ministers — specifically the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice and the Government Whip — would refer to the Duggan case in their speeches on Tuesday — in the event they did not; the only factor which was raised in the Attorney General's conversation with Mr. Harry Whelehan on the Monday night was the Duggan case, and the intention of the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice, and the Government Chief Whip to refer to that case in the Tuesday debate. In that conversation the Attorney General asked Mr. Harry Whelehan, in the light of the Duggan case, to consider his position or in any event to postpone his swearing-in.

It is not possible, having regard to these facts, to come to any other conclusion except that at least some Fianna Fáil Ministers were aware of the significance of the Duggan case on Monday, 14 November. This is the central point. It is not possible to proceed with negotiations with Fianna Fáil in good faith, and ignore that point.

It is clear from the Taoiseach's statement of early this morning that he is continuing to imply that the first opportunity to address the Duggan case only arose on the Wednesday. It is not clear whether other Fianna Fáil Ministers are willing to accept the Taoiseach's statement rather than the Attorney General's account.

If we are ever to get at the full truth, the only way it can be done is by enabling and requiring the Attorney General to outline, blow by blow, every transaction in which he was involved in relation to the Duggan case. The motion before the House this evening makes provision for that.

Of more immediate relevance is the issue of how, and how quickly, Government can be formed. In view of the constitutional difficulties that exist, so aptly described by the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party this morning, the sooner a new Taoiseach is elected by this House, the better.

From my point of view, and that of my party, I wish to say to the House that if an election is necessary now, we will fight that election on the basis of a record of achievement, and also on the basis of our vision of a modern and just economy, hand in hand with an enlightened and equitable society. But I believe the House must ask itself if an election now will change anything.

More importantly, I believe the prolonged period of instability that could result from an election would do damage to the progress towards peace and reconciliation in Ireland. While I have argued that the peace process is now on a solid footing, it is also true that we need to make progress urgently on a number of crucial aspects of the Joint Framework Document.

We certainly cannot afford either a delay of several months — nor to leave the process in the hands of an entirely unaccountable Government. And the worst thing that could happen would be to allow all of these issues to become political footballs in an election campaign.

Before concluding, I want to comment on this sad end to what I believe was a potentially exciting development in Irish politics. The relationship between Fianna Fáil and Labour that dominated Irish political life for the past 20 months was responsible for a great many dramatic changes, and for the effective management of a growing economy.

In many ways, it was a considerable success — not least in the legacy of peace that it has left behind. It foundered in the end on the issue of trust, and even in so doing, it has raised the whole issue of standards to a new level of importance for all.

Much has been written in the past months about the high moral ground and other places where the air is thin. I want to make one thing clear. I claim no monopoly of wisdom in this area. The great majority of Members of this House are decent and hard-working people, whose personal integrity is beyond reproach.

I believe this House, acting in concert, can perform a great national service, by insisting on certain irreducible standards of truth and accountability, and by seeking to earn the respect for which we hope.

We all make mistakes, and none of us is more than human. But when mistakes, or the deliberate actions of some, result in damage to the only appropriate relationship between the political system and the people it is designed to serve — a relationship based on openness — it is time for those involved to step aside.

I wish to begin by quoting the words of Tennyson which I quoted here two weeks ago. Those words are: "That a lie which is half a truth is ever the blackest of lies". That is very appropriate to the goings on in this House over the past three weeks.

I do not have a copy of the Attorney General's report that was presented to the Tánaiste, the Taoiseach and the Leader of the Labour Party. I regret that very much because it makes it difficult for me and others to comment in a real way about the issues that strike at the very heart of public accountability and parliamentary democracy.

For the Fianna Fáil Party to propose that a judge be appointed to carry out an inquiry into its own behaviour makes a nonsense of everything that Fianna Fáil stands for because in September of this year publicly and in October and November in this House the Taoiseach, Deputy Reynolds, said that never again — if he had anything to do with it — would a judicial inquiry be established. He said he asked the Chief Whip, Deputy Dempsey, to look at other ways of inquiring into the truth and, in particular, he thought the committee system was the relevant way to proceed. Yet at the first opportunity to inquire into its own behaviour it proposes that a judge be appointed. For people who have done so much to discredit the Judiciary in recent weeks that is a laugh. This is the sixth meeting in three weeks where we have sought to establish the truth. All we want is the Taoiseach and Fianna Fáil Ministers to tell us the truth. We are happy to accept if mistakes were made but the full truth is the least to which we and the public we serve are entitled.

Last week and the week before I asked who was the Minister who wrote on the bottom of the draft parliamentary reply, the words, "if pursued on this question, keep repeating exactly the above." I have asked in this House twice and publicly on three occasions who is the Fianna Fáil Minister who wrote those words. I have not received an answer. I asked many other questions which I want to repeat this evening.

I asked why the Attorney General, Eoghan Fitzsimons, felt obliged to say in his letter to the Taoiseach of 15 November:

I have done this (that is, he had prepared a draft reply as requested by the Minister for Justice) and it is enclosed herewith. The reply is the best I can do. It does not in fact answer the question.

Why was that reply the best Eoghan Fitzsimons, the Attorney General, could do? Why did it not answer the question? Why did Eoghan Fitzsimons go on to say it would be misleading to inform the Dáil that this was the first time the section was considered? Were people considering misleading the Dáil? I suggest they were.

I asked those questions last week and I have waited for a week for an answer from Fianna Fáil Ministers either here today or in the media. I have not received an answer. I laugh when I hear the new Leader of Fianna Fáil talk about openness, transparency and accountability, its willingness to establish a committee and the agreement it reached with the Labour Party. Of course, it reached an agreement with the Labour Party and while I accept the committee was to be established before the Government would take office, the committee could not have reported before it took office. That would have suited Fianna Fáil — long finger the issue. The reason it wanted to appoint a judge today is that, in the event of an election, the matter would be sub judice and we would not be able to comment on these sad, sorry events.

That is incorrect.

I do not know why you want a judge to inquire into your own behaviour.

I would rather a judge than you.

All we want is for the committee agreed on by Fianna Fáil and Labour to sit here tomorrow and for Ministers and other relevant persons to come before it and tell the truth. We ask for no more and the House and the public are entitled to no less.

There are many other questions. I want to pose. I asked last week why the Minister for Justice tendered her resignation. I asked today if the Minister, Deputy Woods, visited the former Attorney General, Mr. Harry Whelehan, at his home on the evening of Monday, 14 November. I would like an answer to that question. If he did, what did he ask of him?

Why was that visit made by Eoghan Fitzsimons to the Attorney General? Was it to save the Government or to stand down an unwarranted appointment? Fianna Fáil had a twin track strategy. On Monday night it sought the Attorney General's resignation and when he refused it was prepared to come into the Dáil on Tuesday and justify and defend that indefensible appointment.

It may seem surprising to some members of Fianna Fáil but if they had made the facts of the Duggan case known publicly on either 14 or 15 November it may well have been that the swearing in ceremony would have been postponed. Had it been postponed — the Chief Justice might have postponed it — the appointment would have lapsed after ten days because the Constitution requires that the President of the High Court must be sworn in within ten days of his appointment. That, in this case, would have been before 21 November.

I wonder why today the Tánaiste and Leader of Fianna Fáil and the Taoiseach failed to explain why they did not tell the House on 15 November of the advice given to their own legal adviser, the man they had appointed a few days earlier as law officer to the Government? Why did they accept the arguments put forward by Official A who is supposed to take much of the blame because he did not understand the nature of paedophilia, the way the system worked or the application of the section previously, and he was busy anyway with lots of other things to do? His statement and letter of apology were used by the Taoiseach in the Seanad last week to almost vindicate the Taoiseach, rather like the Beef Tribunal was supposed to vindicate him. His statement was good enough last week to justify that he got it all wrong but today we are told that the Government was prepared to accept his advice and argument ahead of its own law officer and the person it appointed only a few days earlier. It does not make sense.

These are sad and sorry events. People are genuinely shocked at what is happening to many institutions of Church and State. Ordinary people are disillusioned. They feel those they held in high esteem have let them down. There is a crisis of confidence and trust. People are looking for a new direction and are entitled to that. There is not much we in the House can do about outside institutions. It is a matter for others to deal with them but there is much we can do for the parliamentary institutions, for this Dáil and Government accountability. I am delighted, even if it is at the eleventh hour, that we are beginning to get to the bottom of these sad and sorry events.

Last week I forced a vote when the Order of Business was put to the House because I was not happy with the arrangements proposed by the Fianna Fáil Government for last week's debate. To proceed by way of statements by party leaders, in my view, was inadequate. I wanted an opportunity last week, as I did the week before, to have a full debate in the Dáil. My request was derided because Labour and Fianna Fáil voted against giving a full debate and an opportunity for Fianna Fáil Ministers to answer questions.

When I say I became convinced around 16 November that there was a cover up at senior level in Fianna Fáil, I did not invent or imagine that. I did not just say it here but outside. I said it because the Minister for Justice in her speech to the Dáil said that when the Attorney General informed her and other Fianna Fáil Ministers on Monday, 14 November of the significance of the Duggan case she felt obliged to tender her resignation. That speech and my knowledge that she had tendered her resignation — I raised that earlier that day and it was denied — sent alarm bells ringing in my head because I know something of what goes on.

My view was confirmed when I saw the Attorney General's letter telling us he did his best but that the reply did not answer the question and it would be misleading to tell the Dáil certain things it confirmed my view. Subsequently in the Sunday Independent I saw the draft reply I held up here earlier which did not answer the question and I saw the writing underneath it. When I did, I knew the person who wrote those words knew the significance of the Duggan case. They knew the Taoiseach should not deviate from the sentence which was “this is the first case giving rise to delays of this magnitude.” The reason they advised the Taoiseach is they were afraid of their lives that Deputy Reynolds, answering without a script would let them all down and they would all be found out. That is why it is in such big capital letters. Nobody need tell me differently. I know.

I raised this issue with Deputy Spring when I met him on 25 November and said I thought the Attorney General's letter and the draft reply indicated that there was a cover-up and that he should inquire into it. In fairness, he took detailed notes and so on. When the Labour Party decided to reopen negotiations with Fianna Fáil without those questions being answered. I said last week I hoped it was not a case of the Labour Party playing a blinder two weeks ago and now turning a blind eye. I am delighted that is not the case.

I must ask, in fairness, what happened between last week when it voted against a Dáil debate and yesterday? What happened between Sunday lunchtime when one of the Labour Party negotiators said a Dáil debate would not be satisfactory, that we needed a committee which obviously could only meet and get at the facts after a new Government was in place? In any event, due to Cabinet confidentiality. I have doubts about the capacity of that committee, as I explained last week, to get at the truth. With all that has happened I still do not believe we have heard the truth.

Late on Sunday night when I heard the negotiations were almost complete and there were only minor details to be clarified, I began to despair and said we would never get to the truth of this matter. I said if we did not get answers before the Government was formed, when Fianna Fáil was under most pressure to deliver, we would never do so. When Fianna Fáil go into Government it not only ignores its partners but the Dáil. The Dáil is used to elect the Taoiseach and the Government and then Fianna Fáil walks away. Even if it is the eleventh hour, I am delighted that we will now, I hope, get the truth. However, it is a poor reflection on parliamentary democracy that we are getting a change only because of a leak to a journalist. Even though yesterday's story only confirmed what most of us knew — and certainly what I believed — it was only then the Labour Party decided to pull back. While I welcome that, I have to put these facts on the record not to embarrass anyone but in talking about accountability and the truth we must set the record straight.

On the question of other issues, there has been much secrecy in the Dáil over the past two years. The only reason so much information has come to light is that the Labour Party made it a requirement when it withdrew from Government and Deputy Dick Spring was going to tell us about the Duggan case. This left the Taoiseach with no alternative. If the Labour Party had bought the Taoiseach's defence on Tuesday nobody would have heard of the Duggan case. If the Leader of the Labour Party had not gone to the Attorney General, Eoghan Fitzsimons, and had not been told by him that he had informed the Taoiseach and Fianna Fáil Ministers of this case on Monday I very much doubt if the significant events would have happened. The important and significant point is that these events happened.

As I said last week, we can put alternatives in place. There is the alternative of a new administration, which has to be the first choice. Last week I said that we should have a new administration; it was the most difficult option, a new administration would not have the same numbers as a Fianna Fáil-Labour Government but it was the right thing to do. I still believe this to be the case and everybody must play a part in bringing this about. The sorry and sad events in recent weeks indicate that Fianna Fáil must be put into Opposition. We were told that officials in the Attorney General's office were being questioned, that somebody was travelling from Macedonia to Frankfurt — I wonder if the person every arrived — and that somebody else was on the west coast of America — what happened to that person? This was a total sham, a pretence, as Fianna Fáil tried to buy more time to stitch up a deal with the Labour Party. We were told about an imaginary Whips' meeting and were asked to give them an extra hour. Of course, none of that happened.

When Fianna Fáil is caught, as it has been in this case, we get a different story. However, we must not forget the Masri passports affair. In December 1992 when Fianna Fáil was last in a minority Government the Masri deal was clinched. That is when a family from the Middle East invested £1.1 million in the Taoiseach's family company. Many people wonder about this because we never found out the truth. This investment in the Taoiseach's family company came about because the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Smith, gave the Masris a glowing reference which warranted them getting Irish citizenship. This was worth approximately £400,000 to the Taoiseach's family company. Small companies which are trying to survive have to pay interest rates of 10 per cent, 12 per cent and 13 per cent, and those were also the rates in 1992. What would these companies have to do to get a family like the Masris to invest in them? Have they any chance of getting a soft loan like that? It was bad enough to get the loan but what is worse is that it was guaranteed by a State bank.

Of course the Taoiseach was not only interested in the Masris, there was also the beef tribunal which dealt with allegations that Larry Goodman received well in excess of £100 million of taxpayers' money for intervention or foreign beef and which was of no benefit to farmers or workers and was a cost to taxpayers. We do not know the real reason this happened. Fianna Fáil did not get caught on that occasion and we were not able to ask questions. A majority in the Dáil voted against the possibility of asking questions and we have never been able to question the Taoiseach on that matter. If the beef tribunal had been televised the story would have been very different.

There is also the tax amnesty which Larry Goodman was given for his efforts. As if the £100 million was not enough, he was given a tax amnesty as a thank you for his efforts. What did this say to the thousands of ordinary compliant taxpayers on the average industrial wage who pay 56 per cent of their earnings to the Government and keep 44 per cent for themselves? It said to them that if you are a cheat you will be looked after. We have never really heard who the tax amnesty was meant to benefit because the public's watchdog, the Comptroller and Auditor General, who tried to get that information in a general sense has to take a case to the courts to get basic information.

I put these facts before the House because it is not just in recent days or weeks that we have not had openness, transparency and accountability. For the past two years the Opposition has been desperately trying to get facts from Ministers. There is a tendency in Fianna Fáil to cover things up and a belief that the worst thing one can do is get caught. Who was the tax amnesty meant to benefit? I look forward to the case being successful in the courts and to hearing the figures and details about who the beneficiaries really were.

The Leader of Fianna Fáil referred to the thousands of decent people who vote for his party. At the last election 674,650 people voted for his party, an enormous number of decent and honourable people. These people should be more discerning and questioning of the vote they give to their Fianna Fáil representatives——

The Deputy was delighted to get it a good few times.

——who have shown such contempt for openness, transparency and accountability. Those voters deserve better, they deserve different standards. We are not talking about electing saints or holier than thou people to the Dáil. All we are talking about is electing people who have ordinary community values, people who believe in responsibility and accountability, people who believe that they should tell the truth and give the facts as they know them. Ordinary people are entitled to expect this of those of us who have the privilege of representing them.

Ireland is a very small country. Numerous emigrants will return home for Christmas and many are angered at the fact that they had to emigrate because they were not given the opportunity to work here. When these people who will return to be reunited with their families at Christmas look at these sad events they will not only feel angered at the country they left but will also feel ashamed of it. If the victims of Fr. Smyth — we still do not know why he was not extradited — and the thousands of other child sex abuse victims about whom we are now hearing and their families are looking at our proceedings they must feel very sick. They have suffered enough. There is no amnesty for these people, they are not even entitled to compensation for their pain and suffering. This State gives them nothing except out of pocket expenses.

It may well be that we will not be in a position to put in place an alternative Government which is viable, stable, credible and good. We cannot put in place any Government and it is not a question of cobbling together something which might do. Everybody must play a part in seeking to put in place a good Government. As I did two weeks ago, I give an assurance that the Progressive Democrats Party will play its part in seeking to put such a Government in place. However, we will only support a Government which is credible and viable, that is important and the people deserve no less. If at the end of the day — and I mean a matter of days because we have wasted much time — we cannot put such an alternative Government in place then we will have no alternative but to consult the electorate. If we have to consult the electorate we should not be afraid because the issues at stake during the past three weeks have been about accountability, the truth, having responsible public representatives and the fundamentals of our parliamentary democracy which we fought so hard to get. I can think of no better issues on which to consult the public.

The unprecedented nature of the political crisis in which the country now finds itself originates in the determination of the Fianna Fáil Party to reward political favours by appointing to one of the highest judicial offices in the land a person who it has now been clearly established was unsuitable to hold that position. It then developed through a refusal of that same party to acknowledge that the Dáil had a right to know all the circumstances which led to the appointment and subsequent events and to the making of false statements to this House. It has reached its climax in the exposure of a deliberate, well organised and premeditated plan, built on duplicity and deceit, to mislead the Dáil on matters of crucial importance.

The extent of the deception is breathtaking. Repeatedly during the past few weeks the Dáil and the public have been fed a diet of half truths, mistruths and downright lies. What is most alarming is that Fianna Fáil almost got away with it. If it had not been for the investigative journalism of Geraldine Kennedy, the Dáil would, in all probability, at this very moment have been voting on the election of Deputy Bertie Ahern as Taoiseach and the return to ministerial office of many of the Fianna Fáil Ministers who were at the heart of the deception in the House two weeks ago.

We now know for sure that Fianna Fáil Ministers were made aware of the existence and significance of the Duggan case on the Monday, before the Dáil resumed on the following day. Indeed, the Taoiseach admits as much in his statement in which he said:

Later than afternoon the Attorney General met with Ministers and mentioned a number of difficulties that had emerged relating to his predecessor's report particularly his discovery of another case, established at the meeting to be the Duggan case.

Later in his statement the Taoiseach went on to say he did not understand what this was all about.

We now know that far from it being a question of having forgotten it or failing to appreciate its significance, a number of them were provided with documentary material about it.

We now know that the Attorney General conveyed a message to Mr. Harry Whelehan on the Monday that on the following day the Taoiseach and two other Fianna Fáil Ministers would be making speeches to the House which referred specifically to the Duggan case, a move clearly designed to pressurise Mr. Whelehan into resigning. We now know that the Taoiseach came into the House on that Tuesday and made a speech which he knew to be untrue.

We now know that the story he concocted the following day about him only really becoming aware of the significance of the Duggan case when he received the letter from the Attorney General on his return to his office, after the debate in the Dáil on the Tuesday, was a falsehood from beginning to end.

What is curious about this matter is that the acting Tánaiste told us today there were two letters; that the letter the Taoiseach read into the record was different from the letter he had in his file. We have not yet been given a copy of the other version of that letter. One must ask how the Attorney General of the day would present two letters, apparently significantly different, one to the Tánaiste and one to the Taoiseach. In his statement the Tánaiste said:

During the Taoiseach's speech I heard, for the first time, the contents of the Attorney General's letter. I have since learned that seemingly the letter passed to me in the House, among other documents, and the letter read into the record by the Taoiseach differed materially. I understand the Attorney General modified his position.

We need to know, and perhaps we will find out by questioning tomorrow, what precisely that means. We need to know also why, when I referred to the letter which the Taoiseach read into the record and the draft reply which accompanied it, the Minister for Health and Social Welfare, Deputy Woods, got very excited and denied this was the letter the Taoiseach had read into the record. In fact he said there were two letters, much to the mystification of everybody on this side of the House. He did not at that stage or since offer an explanation as to how he knew there were two letters.

We now know that if the Taoiseach had not resigned three weeks ago the disclosures of the past few days would have left him with no option but to stand down. We know now also that two other Ministers, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn and Deputy Dempsey, were accessories before and after the fact, share in the Taoiseach's culpability and should now in the circumstances resign and go to the backbenches.

We now know some of the answers to the questions I put to Fianna Fáil members last week, but there are other questions to which we are still awaiting replies. How many of the other Fianna Fáil Ministers were made aware of the details of the Duggan case on Monday? The Taoiseach admits that Minsters were advised. He does not tell us who those Ministers were or in whose office they were advised. Were they advised in his office and in what circumstances? Geraldine Kennedy's front page article was not the only interesting story in The Irish Times of 5 December 1994. On an inside page, Vincent Browne gave the following account of events on that Monday as he knows them:

At noon the following morning, Mr. Fitzsimons telephoned Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn in the midst of an informal gathering of Fianna Fáil Ministers in a room off the Taoiseach's office at Government Buildings. He told her that new information had come to light on the case and she asked him to join her and the other Ministers immediately.

Essentially, Mr. Fitzsimons gave the Ministers two pieces of information. The first was that, contrary to what Mr. Harry Whelehan had told them as recently as the previous Friday afternoon, the Smyth case was not the first time that a section of the Extradition Acts had been considered by his office; it had arisen in a previous case.

The second piece of information was that in his opinion, this section of the Extradition Acts could not be the basis for refusing the extradition request...

We need to know — and this House is entitled to know — which Fianna Fáil Ministers were present at this meeting and which other Fianna Fáil Ministers knew the circumstances and the information concerned.

It has now been confirmed, as I suggested last week, that the draft reply to the potential supplementary question regarding the lapse of time provision, was the enclosure referred to in the letter from the Attorney General which was read into the record by the Taoiseach on 16 November. However, we are entitled to know who decided to add to the draft reply the advice: "If pursued on this question, keep repeating exactly the above".

There are also questions to be answered by the new Attorney General, Mr. Fitzsimons. It is now clear that the Attorney General must have been aware that the Dáil and the public were being misled in a series of statements made here in the House and elsewhere.

That would be an explanation as to why the draft reply did not match the letter given to the Taoiseach in relation to the lapse of time provisions. Yet he did nothing, until asked to produce the report yesterday, following the publication of the article by Geraldine Kennedy. I accept that Mr. Fitzsimons was in a difficult position. As Attorney General he is legal adviser to the Government but he also has a role as defender of the public interest.

He may have been fulfilling his obligations as law officer to the Government but surely that does not extend to turning a blind eye to deliberate attempts to mislead the Dáil. Who, therefore, was defending the public interest behind closed doors of ministerial meetings? The latest events reinforce the case of splitting the two distinct functions of the office of the Attorney General — which I advocated a number of times in the House — and allocate them to two separate legal figures.

As politicians we have our concerns and priorities. Careers are being made and careers have been destroyed. We should not lose sight of the fact that those who suffered most in this sorry saga are the child victims of the paedophile priest, Fr. Brendan Smyth. Through three weeks of intermittent Dáil debates, ministerial statements and reports from the Attorney General, they and their families have been waiting for a straightforward reply to the question: "Why did the warrants for the extradition of Smyth lie virtually untouched in the office of the Attorney General for seven months while this paedophile was allowed to remain at large?" They are still awaiting a reply. It is extraordinary that the acting Tánaiste simply wants to put that question aside because he argued in his speech that we all agree it is unacceptable. It is not acceptable to put it to one side, it has to be investigated fully and, if necessary, criminal proceedings should be brought against any person who may have deliberately hidden that file or deliberately conspired to ensure it did not see the light of day.

Anyone who expected satisfactory replies in the detailed report of the Attorney General into the handling of the Smyth warrants must have been sorely disappointed. Apart from painting a frightening picture of incompetence and mismanagement in the Office of the Attorney General, it failed to provide a satisfactory or believable explanation for the delay in processing the Smyth warrants.

The report shows that with regard to extradition matters, the person referred to as "official A", Mr. Matt Russell, was effectively operating as Attorney General, making all the crucial decisions and deciding which matters were to receive priority. Officials can be blamed, but their political masters must accept the responsibility. It is interesting to note that one report indicates that a blazing row took place between the Attorney General and official A, Mr. Matt Russell. Surely the bottom line is that there is only one Attorney General and that, as far as decisions of that office are concerned, the buck stops with the Attorney General. It is not good enough that we should receive letters from the Attorney General stating his view as one thing and the official's view as another. That is not satisfactory. The report suggests a virtual abdication of responsibility by the previous Fianna Fáil Attorney General, Mr. Whelehan. Official A is indicted for failing to keep the Attorney General informed, but no explanation is offered as to why Mr. Whelehan never apparently inquired about those matters.

The report also raises serious questions about the judgment of the two parties in Government who agreed to Mr. Whelehan's appointment in the first place, and why there was no proper supervision of the Attorney General and his office by the Cabinet. Not only was Mr. Whelehan unsuitable for nomination as President of the High Court, he was clearly not suitable to remain in office as Attorney General.

It now appears that the inevitable outcome of the events of the past few weeks will be that, with or without a general election, Fianna Fáil will go into Opposition, and that can only be a good thing. Indeed, given what we know, the reaction of many will be that the longer Fianna Fáil spends in Opposition, the better.

I read the comments at the weekend of the Government Chief Whip, Deputy Dempsey, who spoke of the pain caused to his family by the trenchant criticism of Fianna Fáil over the past few weeks. I understand and appreciate that hurt. From time to time I, too, have had to endure much abuse during my political career, most of it from Fianna Fáil. As I stated here on 22 November, the problem with Fianna Fáil is not the merits or shortcomings of individual members of that party, most of whom are decent people, but the secretive political culture of that party. Individually, the Fianna Fáil members may be fine people, but collectively they constitute a party, which recent events have confirmed, in the words of Deputy Spring in November 1992, "that has gone so far down the road of blindness to standards and of blindness to the people they are supposed to represent that it is impossible to see how anyone could support them in the future without first seeing them undergo the most radical transformation".

The Fianna Fáil Party appears to have lost all touch with its roots and with the principles which motivated its founders. Cronyism has replaced the concept of public service. The pursuit of the quick buck and the speculative profit is looked upon much more favourably than productive economic measures to benefit the entire community. The stroke and the stratagem have now become the norm.

It is unfortunate that Deputy Spring did not recall his November 1992 words about Fianna Fáil when these events broke. The decision by the Labour Party to enter into negotiations with Fianna Fáil, despite all that had happened, represented the triumph of naive optimism over bitter political experience. I heard Deputy Burton state on radio this morning that these events would never have been forced into the open were it not for the position taken by the Labour Party. That is possibly true, but it is certainly true that these events would never have taken place had the Labour Party not defied the lessons of political history by putting Fianna Fáil back into power in January 1993.

Valuable time was lost while talks between Labour and Fianna Fáil dragged on. The Dáil last had a normal sitting day on 3 November, almost five weeks ago. It is almost three weeks since the resignation of the Taoiseach. Social and economic problems are growing and a considerable body of legislation and other work is awaiting completion in the Dáil.

The political options are constrained by the onset of the Christmas period. It is essential that the Dáil should now set about getting replies to the outstanding questions about the Whelehan affair, and thus allow the parties in the House to determine whether an alternative Government can be formed or whether a general election will be required to resolve the crisis.

I said yesterday that a general election may now be the only way of resolving this crisis. I still believe that this is the most realistic assessment of the situation, but there is clearly an obligation on the parties in the House to examine all the options and particularly to establish whether, in the current circumstances, an alternative Government can be formed without a dissolution of the Dáil.

If it is established that there is a genuine possibility of such an alternative Government being formed, my party will enter into negotiations in a constructive manner. Our aim would be the formation of a three party Government, which would implement a left of centre programme. As I told the House on 22 November, we will enter any such negotiations as an independent party, with its own policies and with a set of key requirements which we would seek to have implemented by a new Administration.

Our approach would be to seek a genuinely reforming Government which would put people first. It would be based on four key elements, namely, institutional reform to bring about greater openness, accountability and public participation in public life; a national crusade to tackle unemployment which would mobilise the institutions of the State and the economy to that end; an all-out assault on poverty and the causes of economic alienation in society; and, as all parties are agreed, on full support for the Northern Ireland peace process based on the Downing Street Declaration and continuation of the work of the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation.

My understanding is that the negotiations between Fianna Fáil and Labour, which have now foundered, were based on the premise that the outgoing Government was a good one, that the problem was a breakdown in trust and that the Programme for Government was sound and would require little renegotiation. I do not accept either of these propositions. I do not want to go over all of the failures of the outgoing Government, but I want to refer to one measure taken by the previous Government which has turned out to be a disaster.

Whatever new Government emerges from the present political crisis must review the measures introduced in the last budget providing for the taxation of unemployment benefit, as they are now resulting in people who find work and leave the dole queue being financially worse off.

The new measures are penalising casual and seasonal workers, and married women are particularly badly hit. When these measures were introduced earlier this year I warned that they would lead to considerable hardship for the poorest and most vulnerable sections of society, but their full extent is only now being felt.

My colleague, Senator Joe Sherlock, told me yesterday of a woman in his area who has been offered a job from 1 January next, which she is anxious to take. The gross salary for this job is £110 per week. That woman has been in receipt of unemployment benefit of £74.20 for the past six months. As a result of that the £1,929 she got in unemployment benefit will be regarded as taxable and before she starts work she will owe £666.25 in tax. Her prospective employers have told her that under the regulations on taxation and social welfare, this will have to be clawed back at the rate of £51.25 per week. For the first 13 weeks of her employment there would be a weekly tax clawback of £51.25, a weekly tax of £43.39, and she would pay £8.40 per week in PRSI, making a total deduction of £102.04 per week. That would leave her with a net sum of £7.96 out of a gross pay of £110 per week. The taxation of unemployment benefit in this way is wrong in principle. The way it is being imposed penalises those who get jobs and is ludicrous. The Government claims to want to end income and poverty traps; instead, they are creating new ones. This ludicrous position must be ended and the taxation of unemployment and disability benefits lifted in the next budget.

I do not regard this caretaker Government as having the power to make decisions on appointments or the spending of moneys unless done with the authority of this House.

I wish to refer to the way the peace process has been abused by the Fianna Fáil element of this Government. The Taoiseach quoted today from the Belfast Telegraph which stated that it would be a disaster if he were to be removed. Would the acting Taoiseach confirm — as I have been informed — that senior people in the Fianna Fáil Party were requested to make contact with republican and loyalist organisations in Belfast requesting them to make statements to the effect that if Deputy Albert Reynolds had to resign it would be bad and a disaster for the peace process?

More of the rumour machine, like Deputy Rabbitte sitting beside the Deputy, who is good at it as well.

The only people who responded to this request were Sinn Féin. The loyalist organisations refused to get involved arguing that it was a matter for a foreign State and not for them to interfere. It is a despicable attempt to misuse and abuse the peace process as a means of hanging on to office. Above all else, perhaps that kind of activity demonstrates the extent to which those currently in high office in Fianna Fáil are prepared to do anything to hang on to power.

In parts of my contribution I will be reading into the record inserts, so that the speech may not look as though it runs properly but I hope Members will bear with me.

Many words have been uttered, many words have been written in the past few weeks about my particular role in the Smyth/Duggan cases and subsequent events. Many serious charges have been laid at my door. I have been accused of, among other things, acting in a conspiracy, participation in a plan to wilfully and knowingly deceive the Dáil and of not telling the full truth.

The most recent allegation made against me is that I "took charge of preparing answers to anticipated Dáil Questions ... as part of" a policy of concealment.

It is being put about apparently that as part of an elaborately constructed scheme designed from the outset I presume, to mislead the Dáil, I contacted the Attorney General to set in place a complex web of deception. This is not only without substance. It is an outrage which does serious damage to the standards of fair play and decency which we have a right to expect of each other as parliamentarians. It shows reckless disregard for truth. Worse still, it shows reckless disregard for the public whose confidence in the democratic system ought not to be shaken without the most serious cause.

I have come in there today, as I always have, to tell the truth. Some of what I will say is already on the record of this House, the rest is as complete and honest an account of my role in all the extraordinary events of recent weeks as I can humanly give.

Before I get into the detail of that, I want to make a few general remarks. I have served in this House for almost 20 years. I have been privileged to serve in ministerial office in one form or another for close on 11 years. I can put my hand on my heart and say with absolute and total honesty that I have never, ever knowingly come into this House to lie to it or to deceive it in any way. Ultimately, like every one else here and outside, I answer to my own conscience and I am satisfied that I am true to mine.

I want to first respond to the many wild allegations and rumours that I knew about the Smyth or Duggan case before this controversy blew up. I want to put the record straight about my role and my Department's role in relation to the handling of these extradition warrants and all extradition warrants.

My role — as Minister for Justice, as all former Ministers for Justice will agree — when requests for extradition from Britain and Northern Ireland under Part III of the Extradition Act, 1965 are received is a limited one. The matter which falls for decision by the Minister for Justice in advance of the execution of a warrant which has been received for backing under Part III is whether to issue a direction under section 44 of the Act. That section provides that a warrant shall not be endorsed for execution if the Minister or the High Court, on the question being referred to the court by the Minister, directs in accordance with the section that it shall not be endorsed. The section provides certain specified grounds on which the Minister or the court in entitled to give such a direction.

They relate essentially to certain recognised exceptions to the requirement for extradition and are when the Minister or the High Court, on the matter being referred to it, is of opinion that an offence to which a warrant relates is:

(a) a political offence or an offence connected with a political offence, or

(b) an offence under military law which is not an offence under ordinary criminal law, or

(c) a revenue offence,

or that there are substantial grounds for believing that—

(i) the person named or described in the warrant will, if removed from the State under this Part be prosecuted or detained for a political offence or an offence connected with a political offence or an offence under military law which is not an offence under ordinary criminal law or,

(ii) the warrant was in fact issued for the purpose of prosecuting or punishing him on account of his race, religion, nationality or political opinion or that his position would be prejudiced for any of these reasons.

The normal practice — which was followed in the Smyth case — is for a copy of the warrants which are received by the Garda authorities to be sent to the Department of Justice in addition to the Attorney General's office and the Chief State Solicitor's office.

The requirement, however, when extradition warrants are first received is for a determination by the Attorney General in respect of the functions imposed on him under the Extradition (Amendment) Act, 1987 and in relation to advising on whether the request meets the requirements of our law. The matter is not submitted to the Minister for Justice in the normal way until such time as that determination is available.

The reason for that, of course, is that the Attorney General's examination of an application might reveal an issue in which a direction or a reference to the High Court by the Minister for Justice would be justified as, for example, could be the case where it was clear that an offence to which a warrant related was an offence under military law but not an offence under ordinary criminal law.

Other powers available to the Minister for Justice under Part III of the 1965 Act only arise after endorsement and execution of warrants in any particular case.

On Sunday evening, 13 November 1994, I telephoned the Attorney General, Eoghan Fitzsimons, at his home to request him, as the new Attorney General on behalf of the Taoiseach, to examine the file on the Fr. Smyth case in his office — on the Monday — for the purpose of establishing if all the information given by his predecessor on this case was accurate.

The reason I took this course of action was simply to establish beyond doubt the accuracy of the information which the Government had been given up to that point. That was the sole motivation of both the Taoiseach and myself. The new Attorney General had just taken up office and we were anxious that a fresh pair of eyes re-examine the file so that the Taoiseach would be fully briefed when he went before the House on the following Tuesday.

There is the understandable question: did this not signal a doubt on my part or on the Taoiseach's part about the advice given to us by Harry Whelehan? It is open certainly to that construction. My thinking, and I believe the Taoiseach's thinking, was that Mr. Whelehan had been Attorney General while the Smyth case was in the office, he had been advised by the most senior official who had been dealing with the file all along — referred to in other documentation as Official "A"— and it seemed no more than ordinary prudence, when the option of having everything looked at expertly and afresh, that this course of action would be taken — especially when it was so crucially important to get the Taoiseach's statement for the House absolutely right.

At that stage, there was no question in either the Taoiseach's or my mind about previous cases. Any suggestions otherwise are totally without foundation. It makes no sense, in fact, to say that we were aware of previous cases. If we were aware and were trying to conceal that fact, why would we go looking for an examination of the facts by the new Attorney General in the certain knowledge that it would simply confirm that there were previous cases? In other words, confirm the very fact which we were allegedly trying to conceal.

On Monday morning, 14 November 1994 I asked my Department to prepare for me, from the files in the Department, a list of cases involving sexual offences where extradition had been sought by either the UK or Northern Ireland authorities in the past five years. I have already indicated to the House the limited information contained in Department of Justice extradition case files.

My motivation in seeking this information was to establish if, on the basis of the information available to my Department, there were any other recent cases of a sexual nature where a delay occurred of the order of that in the Smyth case.

Later that morning, but prior to my conversation with the Attorney General that morning to which I shall refer in a moment, I received a three-page document from my Department which listed a total of 11 cases in which a sexual offence was involved. The document contained the following information — the offences, the date the warrants were received, the Attorney General's advice and the Minister's decision. I have appended a copy of this document to my statement. The copy of this document has not been altered in any way except that the names of persons involved have been substituted by the letters A, B, C, etc. This has been done to protect the anonymity of the defendants in these cases. I can, however, confirm that case J is the reference to the Duggan case. The limited information on my Department's files did not suggest that the Duggan case was one which may have been considered by the Attorney General having regard to section 50 (2) (bbb). In any event, this case held no significance for me, no more than any of the other previous cases at that particular time.

At that point, that is early on Monday, 14 November, I believed that the information previously supplied to me and to the Government by the Attorney General's office was correct. The House will recall that in essence that was that the Smyth case was the first in which the provisions of section 50 (2) (bbb) had applied. Again, for the avoidance of doubt and to set the record straight, I am attaching a copy of the relevant contents of the Department of Justice file on the Smyth case to this statement. Persons named in the warrants and the accompanying documentation have also been excluded. I state categorically and unequivocally that prior to today I have never seen this file and neither was it ever in my office. Nor have I seen nor ever had in my office the full Smyth file — that is the Attorney General's office file on the case.

Mid morning of Monday, 14 November while at an ad hoc meeting of Fianna Fáil Ministers in the ante room of the Taoiseach's office I rang the Attorney General to inquire how he was progressing with his review of the Smyth file. In my statement on 16 November I believe I may have said it was the Attorney General who got in touch with me. However, the point as to who initiated the contact is not of significance. The main point is that the Attorney General indicated to me then that his inquiries had not yet been completed but that so far he had found some inaccuracies. I then invited the Attorney General to immediately join the Fianna Fáil Ministers in the ante room to the Taoiseach's office, which he did.

When he arrived I asked the Attorney General to tell my colleagues about the inaccuracies he had uncovered. He indicated that it appeared there may have been a case other than the Smyth case in which the provision of section 50 (2) (bbb) were considered. In saying this he indicated that the senior legal assistant in his office strongly disagreed with his assessment. He was asked what was the other case — I cannot recall by whom — and he indicated that he could not remember the name but that the warrants had been received in February 1992. I checked my Department's list and saw that the only reference to warrants having been received at that time related to the Duggan case. The Attorney General then agreed it was the Duggan case he was referring to. There was much confusion at this point as the Attorney General gave a technical legal explanation of the words "applied" and "considered" in the context of determining whether or not the Duggan case could be regarded as a previous case. At that point the significance of this information in the context of the Taoiseach's contribution to the debate the following day was not seized upon by me or any of the other Fianna Fáil Ministers.

As far as I was concerned, I knew that if the information now given by the Attorney General on the Duggan case turned out to be true, I would have to make a personal statement to the House at the earliest opportunity. I had previously told the House in an answer to a Parliamentary Question by Deputy Gay Mitchell based on the information supplied to me by the Attorney General's office that the reason for the delay in the Smyth case was that it was the first time the provisions of section 50 (2) (bbb) fell to be considered.

Later on Monday the Attorney General returned to the room where the Fianna Fáil Ministers were meeting and handed in a document about the Duggan case. I specifically asked the Attorney General if he gave that document to me. He has no recollection as to which of the Ministers, if to any, he gave that document. I did not see that document until this afternoon.

On Tuesday morning 15 November, a document prepared by an official in the Attorney General's office was given by the Attorney General to a member of the staff in the Taoiseach's private office. This staff member brought it into a meeting of Fianna Fáil Ministers which was in session in the Taoiseach's office. The document itself was an analysis of the Duggan case. Appended to it was the actual submission on the case to the former Attorney General, Mr. Whelehan, and signed by him. That document was left, with all other documents, on the table of the ante room. It was not circulated. I asked the Attorney General around midday on the Tuesday to prepare a reply to the probable supplementary question which was: "Was this the first time that the section was applied?" I asked for this because, although there was doubt about the relevance of the Duggan case, if there was a specific supplementary question we would have to be in a position to deal with it, even if we had to go on to say we were not sure whether it could be said to constitute a precedent.

At this point I want to read a letter which the party Leader got from the Attorney General with this morning's date, 6 December 1994.

Are we to have copies of it?

Yes. I am reading it into the record of the House. If this is not sufficient I will arrange to have the copies provided.

Can we have them this evening for tomorrow's question time?

Certainly. The letter states:

Up to approximately midday on Tuesday it was my firm understanding that on that afternoon the Dáil was going to be informed of the Duggan case by the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice and the Chief Whip. From such contacts I had had up until that time with all concerned, I had no reason to believe that anyone doubted the simple advice that I had given, namely, that the Smyth case was not the first case in which the section had been considered.

In or about the time in question I was requested by the Minister for Justice to draft an answer to the question that is causing controversy. I thought this request was odd, particularly having regard to the language of the question and was immediately suspicious. I recall saying to the Minister outside the Taoiseach's office: "What about the Duggan case?" She replied: "We are not using the Duggan case". She then left.

As far as I was concerned at that point in time a policy decision had been taken not to refer to the Duggan case in the Dáil.

No such policy decision had been taken by me or by any of the other Fianna Fáil Ministers. The letter continues:

I was very concerned about this in view of what I knew. I decided to prepare an answer to the question, thereby making it useless. I decided also that a very strong letter of advice should accompany the answer. It was my intention that that letter should clearly indicate that the Dáil was not to be misled in relation to the Duggan case. I intended and assumed that the reply drafted by me and the letter would be read and considered together. If this had been done it would have been apparent that the reply was useless. Presumably it would not have been used.

The letter was drafted in an atmosphere of some urgency, having regard to the time considerations then applicable. I managed to get it along with the draft reply and the copy of Mr. Whelehan's letter to me at about 2.20 p.m. I gave them to the Minister for Justice. The Division Bells sounded. She put them on the table and put something on top of them saying at the same time, words to the effect that she was not bringing these down. [He was talking about the letters, not the reply.] Everyone then left, I was left standing there. I was concerned and must have appeared so. An official from the Taoiseach's Office noted my concern and asked me about it. I explained the situation and pointed to the documents on the table stating that they were for the Taoiseach. He asked me would I like if he took a copy. I said that I would. I assumed that he proceeded to do this.

To whom was the letter addressed?

The letter was sent to the Leader of Fianna Fáil and was dated this morning, 6 December. The Deputy will have a copy of that letter.

I do not remember making the statement "We are not using the Duggan case" to the Attorney General but I accept his word. However, it does reflect the general view among all the Fianna Fáil Ministers who were meeting on the previous Monday that because the advice about the Duggan case was so unclear, and there was a contradiction concerning its relevance within the Attorney General's office, it would be unsafe to refer to it in the House as a case in which section 50 (2) (bbb) had definitely been considered.

On Tuesday at approximately 2.20 or 2.25 p.m., as the Fianna Fáil Ministers were leaving the Taoiseach's ante room to go to the Dáil Chamber the Attorney General arrived with the supplementary reply, his own letter to the Taoiseach and Harry Whelehan's letter to the Attorney General himself.

I took the supplementary reply as the Dáil bells were ringing and put it together with all other supplementary material in the supplementary file which the Minister for Finance was taking to the Dáil. I left the two letters on the table in the ante room without reading either — they were not addressed or sent to me — not realising the significance of the letters.

The Attorney General said he assumed that the official in the Taoiseach's office brought this to the Dáil. I understand that that official in the Taoiseach's office immediately photocopied the letter and brought it to the Dáil. I understand that it was passed to the Secretary of the Department of the Taoiseach who read it and passed it to the Government Secretary who passed it to the Chief Whip, who in turn passed it to the Tánaiste. I was not aware that this happened.

There are two further matters on which I believe I must comment for the sake of completeness. The first has to do with my answer to Deputy Mitchell's question on 25 October and matters relating thereto. The second is the question of seeking to delay Mr. Whelehan's swearing-in ceremony as President of the High Court.

I have already acknowledged, and apologised to the House, in the course of my personal statement on 16 November for the fact that information I gave to the House arising from a question tabled by Deputy Gay Mitchell on 25 October was factually incorrect. The Order of Business was changed for Tuesday, 15 November, and as a result I made my personal statement on Wednesday.

I referred on that occasion to the reply I had given to a supplementary question in which, having referred to the fact that the warrants in that case alleged offences on a variety of dates between 1964 and 1988, I stated: "I also understand that this case was the first in which provisions had arisen for consideration by the Attorney General's office since the enactment of the 1987 Act".

That reply was based on information that was supplied to my Department by the Attorney General's office and, as will be clear from the context, had reference to the provision made in section 50 (2) (bbb) of the Extradition Act, 1965. I also referred in the course of my statement on 16 November to the circumstances in which new information had come to light which indicated that the matter had in fact arisen for consideration in the context of an earlier case — the Duggan case.

Further inquiries by the present Attorney General involving a detailed search, since the Taoiseach made his statement to the House, of all extradiction files in the Attorney General's office since the enactment of the Extradition (Amendment) Act, 1987 have since disclosed that the Duggan case was not the only case in which the provisions of section 50 (2) (bbb) have arisen for consideration by his office. That disclosure was made after the Taoiseach made his second statement to the House on Wednesday, 16 November. In his report of 1 December, he indicated that the matter had arisen for consideration in other cases and had also been considered by the courts. Needless to say I was not aware of those cases when I responded to questions on this matter on 25 October. In preparing the material for replies to supplementary questions on that occasion, my Department relied on the material received from the Attorney General's office and I was not aware of those cases when I made my statement on 16 November. There is a question as to the delay in the swearing-in ceremony of the new President, Harry Whelehan, and what my role was in that regard.

I asked in my Department on Monday, 14 November, what exact arrangements had been made for Mr. Harry Whelehan's swearing-in ceremony. I was advised that the necessary papers had been referred to the Chief Justice and that the ceremony was due to take place on 15 November. I was also advised that it would not cause a difficulty — in the sense of any legal difficulty — if the ceremony were postponed for a few days. The Attorney General confirms I conveyed this information to him.

Why did I seek to delay the swearing-in ceremony? Again, I will be frank. I did not think that it would be helpful either to the Government, Mr. Whelehan or the Office of the Presidency or to the courts if he was seen to be proceeding with this ceremony at a time when the Dáil was dealing with matters of great controversy concerning his appointment. Members may say that the motivation was unworthy. I believe any Minister faced with the same situation would ask for a few days postponement. I am not trying to hide what I did or what my motivation was, I am telling the unvarnished truth to this House.

On Wednesday, 16 November, when it became apparent that the question of the non-inclusion in the Taoiseach's speech on the Tuesday of the additional new material about the Duggan case was crucial to the survival of the Government I offered my resignation as Minister for Justice to the Taoiseach.

Why is that information not in the Minister's script?

It was in a script from which I read in the House. It is on the record; I am not trying to hide anything.

I took that step for the following reasons. When the additional information became known to me, and to other Fianna Fáil Ministers, on the Monday, I felt rightly or wrongly that as Minister for Justice I should have ensured that the Taoiseach included that new information, even though there was much confusion, and the significance of that information was not seized upon by me nor by any of the Fianna Fáil Ministers in his speech. I greatly regret not having done that. The new information had nothing to do with the handling of the Smyth case and it had precious little to do with the substance of what the Taoiseach said, namely, that the delay was inexcusable. Nevertheless, I thought at the time that the right and principled course was to offer my resignation.

While it is not possible for any of us in attempting to recollect each and every detail of a few days to say with absolute certainty that nothing has been forgotten or omitted, I assure the House that what I said today is a true and honest account of my recollection of all that took place and of my part in it.

I wish to respond to Deputy Bruton's question.

I hope the Chair will grant a similar extension of time to Members on this side.

I am trying to be helpful.

I advise the Minister her time is exhausted.

I hope Deputy Mitchell will allow me to conclude.

We will be generous if the same generosity is reciprocated.

The Chair is working to the order of the House. I am sure Deputies will want to hear what the Minister has to say. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Bruton asked if I was aware of the Taoiseach's request to the President of the High Court; I was not aware of such a request.

Deputy De Rossa said that the Taoiseach referred to two letters sent by the Attorney General to him and that one was withdrawn, changed or altered and I understand the Tánaiste referred to that today. The facts I am about to give the Deputy have come from the Attorney General and I am sure he will elaborate on them tomorrow if necessary. Neither the Tánaiste nor I was present when the events to which I will refer took place. At approximately 3.30 a.m. on Wednesday a statement on the Duggan case was being drafted for the Taoiseach in the ante-room to his office. The Attorney General told me that he was called in to look at that statement at 3.35 a.m. It referred to a point made in the Attorney General's first letter. The Attorney General considered that point, telephoned an official in his office and took advice. The Attorney General and his official decided there was a question mark over the accuracy of that aspect of the letter. The Attorney General told me that he told the Taoiseach about his doubt about its accuracy. The Taoiseach gave that letter to the Attorney General and asked for a replacement letter with the sentence and the phrase which the Attorney General was unhappy with removed. The Attorney General took that letter and prepared a fresh one minus the sentence and phrase with which the Attorney General was unhappy. I do not have a copy of that letter because that first letter was not read by us nor by the Taoiseach in the House because that was the Tuesday letter. If I understand the Attorney General correctly — I am sure he will put the record straight at the meeting of the committee tomorrow — that letter referred to a statement he had made to the Ministers on the Monday which he had repeated in his letter to the Taoiseach on Tuesday to the effect that the previous Attorney General could have acted on the warrants which related to the later assaults. I understand that was the net point. To be helpful to Deputy De Rossa, I considered it important to give details of those two letters.

On Wednesday, 16 November, the acting Taoiseach read a letter from the Attorney General into the record. Today, the acting Tánaiste stated that the letter he had in his possession that day was not that letter. Therefore, copies of the two letters are available——

Yes. I will clear that up.

Will a copy of the letter we have not seen be made available?

I am sure that will be possible. The Attorney General is the only person who has a copy of that letter and presumably when he appears before the committee tomorrow he will bring it.

The Tánaiste indicated that he had a copy of it on the Wednesday.

I will clarify the position. The Attorney General wrote the letter on the Tuesday for delivery to the Taoiseach in the House. That letter was delivered to the House and nobody realised the significance of it. According to the Attorney General's recollection he met the Taoiseach and Minister who were present in the ante-room to the Taoiseach's office at 3.35 a.m. He said there was a question mark over the accuracy of a point in the letter. He took that letter away and took out that part of it about which he, the Attorney General, questioned the accuracy, prepared a second letter which he brought back to the Taoiseach. It was the second letter which the Taoiseach read in the House and it was the first letter, which was changed subsequently by the Attorney General, which the Tánaiste had on the Tuesday.

There were more letters than St. Paul wrote to the Corinthians.

Perhaps the Minister would bring her contribution to a conclusion.

I was asked a question by Deputy De Rossa.

We are dealing with statements and there is no provision for question time.

I have not sought to mislead the House at any time, and I have not asked others to do anything which might have the result of misleading the House.

If historians, looking back on the troubled events of recent days, take upon themselves the task of identifying what exactly caused the greatest damage, I believe it will be that people chose to see deceit and mischief where in truth there was genuine error generated to a significant extent by the pressure of events.

Comments made by the Attorney General, Eoghan Fitzsimons, in one of the documents dated 5 December will, I am convinced, be seen in time to be the truth. He said, referring to discussions which took place between him and Fianna Fáil Ministers:

Discussion involved a great deal of interruption. I am not at all surprised to hear that documents, one introduced by me on the Monday, and one provided on Tuesday morning regarding the Duggan case, were not circulated.

The confusion was added to by the manifest tiredness of all concerned. This was due to long hours without sleep. All of these factors, in my view, probably put a serious question mark over the judgements of the Ministers and their capacity to make rational decisions at the time.

There was no conspiracy by me or any of the Fianna Fáil Ministers wilfully and knowingly to deceive the Dáil. There was no decision by me or any of the Fianna Fáil Ministers to tell untruths. I acted all of the time with the most honourable of motives. The Attorney General stated:

It seems to me that in the interest of justice and fairness, judgements in relation to the events at issue should take account of these matters [referring to the previous matters he talked about]. All concerned are human. It is human to err. Who has not made a mistake?

The Minister referred to some accompanying documents, but only the spoken word will be recorded. The Minister may wish to place copies of those documents in the Library.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Michael Noonan.

I am sure that is satisfactory.

The Minister said that people may choose to see deceit and mischief where genuine error exists. I asked a very simple question on 25 October, Question No. 31 on the Order Paper, asking the Minister for Justice if she would make a statement on the allegation in a recent "Counterpoint" programme that the Garda took no action on foot of an extradition request from the RUC. If that question had been answered when Ministers were not up all night, when Ministers were not tired and when they had no excuse, we would not have this fiasco. Instead we received a meandering, deceitful, misleading reply which is at the root of this problem. The reply states: "This case was the first in which provisions had arisen for consideration by the Attorney General's office since the enactment of the 1987 Act". Would any of us write a letter or speak to a business conference using such words? Those words were used for one reason only, to deceive. They were not written when Ministers were tired or worn out.

I said that night outside the House that the Dáil had been misled. I issued a statement in which I quoted the famous section 50 (2) (bbb) on which everybody has been relying since and said the Minister was using it as a fig leaf to cover the reality that there were a number of extradition cases. I did not realise at that stage the significance of what I had said. The Minister issued a statement that night to trump my card, stating that I was being disingenuous. I was so incensed that the following morning, 26 October, I put down a motion to adjourn the Dáil to allow this matter to be clarified, but the Ceann Comhairle would not allow it to be taken. I then requested that an Estimate for the Attorney General's Office be brought forward so that the matter could be dealt with but that was not allowed. I indicated in the House that I had written to the Ceann Comhairle complaining that the House had been misled at the outset when Ministers were not tired and when there was no confusion. I wrote to the Ceann Comhairle on two occasions about this matter.

The Minister said in her speech:

It makes no sense, in fact, to say that we were aware of previous cases. If we were aware and were trying to conceal that fact, why would we go looking for an examination of the facts by the new Attorney General in the certain knowledge that it would simply confirm that there were previous cases?

I will answer that question — because the Government was seeking to pin it on the former Attorney General before he was sworn in and to save its own neck. Any reasonable person looking at the record would answer the Minister's question in that way. That is why they went looking for these cases.

The Minister said in her speech: "Nor have I seen nor ever had in my office"; she does not say, "in my Department". She further went on to say: "we were not sure whether it could be said to constitute a precedent". The Government was sure enough that it constituted a precedent to seek the resignation of the president-elect of the High Court. When will the Government stop this continual misleading of this House?

In a joint statement with the Fine Gael leader I stated on 1 November last that the House was being misled. Through all my public statements, questions in the House, efforts to adjourn the House and to bring forward the Attorney General's Estimate, are we to believe that no official in the Minister's office, where copies of extradition requests are held, in the Garda Síochána, where the files are held, or anywhere else sought to cover themselves by checking or asking somebody to check the facts? Is the Minister telling us that when she asked the new Attorney General to check the files she did not know what he would discover? The record will show who is being disingenuous.

The Taoiseach said today that the Minister put this matter right on 16 November in her personal statement. She did so on the evening of 16 November after the facts had come out in this House, after it was common knowledge. On the evening of Tuesday, 15 November, the Minister sent three written replies to me, which most unusually were not received in my office until about 8 p.m. despite numerous requests in the afternoon for those replies — written replies to parliamentary questions are usually received at 4 p.m. or 5 p.m. We had to ask for those replies several times and when we eventually received them there was no mention of a Duggan case and no apology for misleading the House on 25 October. It was only on 16 November when Deputy Spring blew the whistle and it knew the game was up that the Government took the opportunity to give the information. That was not the first opportunity; the first opportunity was in written replies on 15 November to questions which referred back to a question by me on 25 October.

I now realise the significance of the delay in receiving that reply since it is clear that not only does the Attorney General receive extradition warrants but copies are sent to the Department of Justice and files are held by the Garda Síochána. Copies are also sent to the Chief State Solicitor's office. The whole matter is quite disingenuous.

The action of the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Michael Woods, in telephoning the Attorney General and requesting him to put pressure on the President of the High Court to resign because his resignation would save the Taoiseach's neck and save the peace process was shameful in the extreme. Attempted interference with a judge in this manner must surely be a constitutional outrage having regard to the constitutional position of the Judiciary. Even for Fianna Fáil this was an extraordinary thing to do.

Deputy Woods must explain fully to the House his role in this sordid affair. He must say who directed him to ring the Attorney General and what Ministers were present when he made that ignominious telephone call. The Attorney General indicated that, in his view, on Monday, 14 November Fianna Fáil Ministers were behaving in a very disorganised manner, that they could be described as headless chickens.

Why were these Ministers operating in such a disorganised state? We should not forget that they are charged with running the country and pleading our case in Europe. We all know the situation. As I outlined in my statement on 1 December, the reason they were so confused was they were conspiring to mislead the Dáil; they were confusing themselves.

Serious questions need to be asked about the role of the Minister for Justice in these affairs. From her original misleading reply to the Dáil on 25 October she waited until 16 November, until the jig was up, to give us some facts. Why, when the Attorney General told her on 14 November about the Duggan case, did she not refer to this in the written replies to me on 15 November? I also suspect that her Department kept back the replies so that she could include the up-to-date information but she chose not to do so. Again tonight she refused to mention that she answered questions tabled for written reply on 15 November.

The Tánaiste told the House that the original intention was that the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice and the Fianna Fáil Chief Whip were intent on disclosing this information on 15 November. If that is the case why did they not disclose it in reply to my three parliamentary questions on that day and delivered to my office at 8 p.m.?

A cover-up.

He said they did not have a chance to do so but they did. This is manifestly untrue so far as the Taoiseach's speech was concerned.

From start to finish this has been a nasty affair. As you will recall, Sir, I wrote to you twice about this matter on 25 October. I recognise that there are decent people within Fianna Fáil, like every other party in this House, but we all have a tendency from time to time to get carried away with certain unethical behaviour. That is what has crept in here. I hope that a stretch in Opposition will give Fianna Fáil an opportunity to recover because all parties in this House have an important role to play. Most importantly, I hope that whoever forms the next Government will learn from this exercise and serious lesson and that from now on questions in this House will be answered honestly and openly and that there will be accountability, to which the people are entitled under the Constitution.

(Limerick East): The issue which has brought us to where we are is the issue of accountability — of the Government to the Dáil or the lack of it in this case. In any democratic system there is tension between the Executive and Parliament. As we have seen in the United States the strength sometimes moves from the Presidency to Congress and on other occasions back to the Presidency but whatever the balance of power between the different units of government there is always some degree of accountability.

I suggest that government without accountability is a definition of dictatorship and any government which does not have a parliament to which it accounts or which is not prepared to account to Parliament is on the road to the kind of government we experienced recently in Ceausescu's Romania. The Taoiseach resigned because he failed the accountability test. He did not resign because of a delayed extradition warrant, the high incidence of child abuse or the appointment of Mr. Harry Whelehan as President of the High Court but because he misled — and was seen to mislead — the Dáil. That is the issue central to this debate and which continues today.

Truth is the currency of accountability. Accountability does not mean telling cover stories to the Dáil; it means telling the truth even when it is uncomfortable and works against the personal interest of those who tell it. Between 14 and 17 November the truth would have worked against the interests of those who should have told it in the Dáil. The Taoiseach was caught out in misleading the Dáil and was left with no option but to resign.

The Labour Party then acted foolishly. It believed the bona fides of the other Fianna Fáil Ministers that they had no involvement in misleading the Dáil and it entered into bona fide discussions to form a new Government which was almost in place but fell apart again on the issue of accountability. It is clear that Ministers, as well as the Taoiseach, were involved in misleading the Dáil. They failed the accountability test and conspired to mislead the Dáil. If a Cabinet does this, parliamentary democracy cannot function. That is the reason these issues are so important and central and the reason Fianna Fáil is now deemed to be ineligible for Government by the Labour Party and all the other Opposition parties in this House.

If we look at paragraph 1 of the report prepared by the Attorney General, Mr. Eoghan Fitzsimons, we will see that the Minister for Justice was involved in the cover-up. He said that on 14 November:

I took a call from the Minister for Justice. She informed me that the Department had made enquiries and that it had been indicated that if Mr. Whelehan wished to postpone his swearing-in for two or three days it would not be a problem.

Did he think he would get better weather within two or three days so that the photographs would look better? Is it not clear from that paragraph in the report of the Attorney General that the Minister for Justice had commenced a process of putting pressure on Mr. Whelehan to resign as President of the High Court? She was in at the start of events.

It is clear from paragraph 2 that the Taoiseach was involved but we know this already and he has paid the price. If we move on in the report we will see that the Minister for Social Welfare was involved. The Attorney General said:

At about 10.15 p.m. I was called at home by the Minister for Social Welfare. He said that he was speaking on behalf of Fianna Fáil Ministers who were in Leinster House. I understand that the Taoiseach requested the Minister to contact me. I assumed that he was speaking for all Fianna Fáil Ministers.

What did the Minister for Social Welfare ask the Attorney General to do? He asked him to explain to Mr. Whelehan that the peace process was in danger and that he would have to resign or the peace process might not survive. He conveyed this request of Ministers to the Attorney General.

It is stacking up; the Taoiseach, Minister for Justice and Minister for Social Welfare were involved but the Minister for Social Welfare was speaking on behalf of other Ministers. According to the Attorney General, he assumed the was speaking for all Fianna Fáil Ministers. He went on to say:

I understand from the Tánaiste that he was not present. I do not know who else was there.

What about the Tánaiste? On the Tuesday afternoon he sat beside the Taoiseach while questions were being put from this side of the House. He sorted the briefing notes — there were at least three or four dozen — and passed them as supplementary questions were asked from this side of the House at random. He told us today that he was feeding the thresher and dreaming of greatness and had no idea of the contents of the briefing notes he was passing. How are we to believe this?

He also said in his speech today that he had in his possession the letter from the Attorney General which had caused controversy and was published in the newspapers. Yet, he passed the briefing notes. There was no order to the supplementary questions asked from this side of the House. He would have had to sort through the briefing notes to hand the appropriate one to the Taoiseach. I suggest that he would not have been able to do this if he did not know the contents of the briefing notes and, in particular, the contents of the note in relation to the question which was not put and never answered: was the Smyth case the first one? What is the position of the Government Chief Whip? It seems that he was present on all occasions. Yet, we have had no statement from him today.

I object in the strongest terms to the shameful use of the peace process. They tried to get Mr. Harry Whelehan to resign to save the Government's neck when the Labour Party was no longer prepared to go back into Government and they used the peace process to try to lever him out of office. The Minister for Social Welfare applied the lever according to the Attorney General. That is disgraceful in circumstances where we have invested so much in the peace process and the country has suffered so much.

The events of this week and the report of the Attorney General show quite clearly that not only should the Taoiseach have resigned but all Fianna Fáil Ministers who participated in the decision making process and in the preparation of the Taoiseach's speech are individually and collectively tainted and are not suitable for office. They failed to account for their actions to the Dáil, they misled the Dáil and in effect did not tell the truth to the Dáil.

I will pose questions tonight which I will develop tomorrow on the constitutional aspects of this case. The Attorney General says in paragraph 2 of his report that the Taoiseach asked him as Attorney General to go to see Mr. Harry Whelehan in relation to a postponement of the swearing-in and ask him to consider his position. He states that the Taoiseach asked him "as Attorney General" and not as a fellow member of the Law Library or as someone who knew Mr. Harry Whelehan socially. What does that mean? Under the Constitution the Attorney General is the legal adviser to the Government. Th Attorney General knows that and yet he put that in his report. Quite clearly, not only was the Attorney General acting for the Taoiseach, he was acting for the Government or thought he was acting for the Government. Was there a Cabinet decision to seek the resignation of Mr. Harry Whelehan? I know the Cabinet did not formally meet but Ministers and former Ministers know of the use of incorporeal meetings where the secretary to the Government rings Members when there is pressure for a decision to be made and the decision made is recorded as a Government decision. Was such a decision made and if not how can the Attorney General say the Taoiseach spoke to him as Attorney General? It is quite clear the Taoiseach and the Government acting in this manner exceeded their powers under the Constitution. The sections of the Constitution dealing with the Attorney General's office say the functions, duties and the remuneration of the Attorney General will be laid down by law. I know of no law under which the Attorney General is a conduit to the Judiciary. I know of no law enabling the Attorney General to seek the resignation of judges. I know of no law under which the Attorney General can go as a messenger from the Taoiseach or from the Government to any member of the Judiciary. It is quite clear that this totally cuts across the separation of powers.

Another issue of accountability which is not upon us yet but may arise, is the accountability of parliament to the people. This Dáil is doing a good job in ensuring that the Government is accountable to it. The motion passed today ensures there will be searching scrutiny of individuals tomorrow to establish the truth. This Dáil should continue with that job but if it fails to establish the accountability of the Government and its officials and is unable to put an alternative administration together the issue of accountability to the people arises. In those circumstances there will be no alternative but to hold a general election. My party can look forward to it with confidence.

I do not have a copy of the Minister's script, but I urge him to explain to the House the reason for the seven month delay. We have yet to hear it.

Let us hear the Minister without any further interruption.

We have heard from four Ministers.

There is a time limit on this debate and consequently interruptions of this type will not be tolerated.

I wish to share my time with my colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry, Deputy Joe Walsh.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

This issue has been handled badly from the start. I assure the House that to my knowledge there was no attempt by Ministers to conceal any facts in the case. Neither I nor most of the Ministers were aware of the two documents regarding the Duggan case referred to in the Attorney General's report. Indeed, I have not seen them yet.

I understand the Opposition is making a maximum political gain from the situation but it is important to stick to the facts. I did not keep a precise record of events on Monday, 14 November so the House will understand that this is my recollection of events of the day. I do not believe anybody else had precise records and basically people are speaking from memory and this needs to be borne in mind. I was present at ad hoc meetings about the evolving political situation throughout Monday, 14 November until evening when I left to prepare for and appear on the television programme “Questions and Answers”. I was accordingly not involved in the preparation of the Taoiseach's speech for delivery on Tuesday, 15 November. It is quite extraordinary that people can watch a person on national television join in the programme and yet think one was somewhere else at the same time, but that is the nature of communications nowadays. I am sorry Deputy Harney is not here because she keeps repeating this — which is irritating — in trying to denigrate Fianna Fáil which is a great national party. She denigrates any of the members of that party in Dáil Éireann.

But the Tánaiste said the meeting finished that day at 2.30 p.m.

Deputy Carey must desist.

Will the Deputy let me speak? When Fine Gael is in office the jackboot will come out and the rainbow will find it has real problems when people get to know what Fine Gael is really like. I have seen this on many occasions in the past.

I also fulfilled two important commitments on Monday, 14 November. Arising from my responsibilities as Minister for Social Welfare I attended and officially launched a research project into housing preferences of the elderly by the Dublin Central Mission in Trinity College at 11.25 a.m. approximately and I officially launched the Irish Wheelchair Association's information resource centre in Clontarf at 2.30 p.m. approximately.

Earlier on Monday I was at an ad hoc meeting when the Attorney General give his preliminary verbal account of a case which turned out to be the Duggan case. The information given to the meeting by the Attorney General about this case was far from conclusive and the Attorney General acknowledged that its relevance was disputed by his senior legal assistant. The outcome of the discussion was that the Taoiseach asked the Attorney General to investigate the matter and return to him with a definite answer. The Attorney General left and the meeting continued to deal with other matters. When I left the meeting I attended to departmental business, had a meal, prepared for and attended the “Questions and Answers” programme following which I returned to my home just after midnight. I was entirely unaware of the approach made by the Attorney General to the former President of the High Court on the evening of Monday 14 November or of the reasons or the basis for that approach.

To answer Deputy Harney, I wish to make it absolutely clear that I did not approach the Attorney General on Monday, 14 November, to ask him to do anything. Neither did I contact the former Attorney General asking him to consider his position. I wish to be clear that my contact with the Attorney General occurred on Tuesday night, after the Dáil session and after the Taoiseach had emerged from the Dáil and found the definitive reply from the Attorney General. At that point he had considered it and felt he had to take action on foot of the reply.

The Deputy will note from the statement of the current Attorney General, which has been read into the record of the House by the Tánaiste, that on the evening of Tuesday, 15 November, I telephoned the Attorney General at his home at approximately 10.15 p.m. I did this specifically at the request of the Taoiseach who was holding a meeting of Ministers in his office at that time.

The Attorney General's account of our telephone conversation has already been read into the record by the Tánaiste. The Taoiseach asked me on Tuesday, 15 November at approximately 10 p.m., after the Dáil had risen, to contact the Attorney General and ask him to speak to the then President of the High Court to let him know how matters had unfolded and to stress the danger to the peace process posed by the possibility of the Taoiseach resigning.

Concerning the "draft reply" to a possible supplementary question, I was completely unaware of its existence at the time. I did not know it was being prepared. The first time I learned of its existence was on Wednesday, 16 November, when the Taoiseach read it into the record. I have absolutely no knowledge of, or concerning, any handwriting on any copy of it.

Regarding the circumstances surrounding the appointment of the President of the High Court on Friday, 11 November 1994, the Taoiseach documented the background to this appointment in his speech to this House on Tuesday, 15 November 1994. There is no need to go into that further at this stage.

I have been a Member of this House since 1977. The past few weeks have been unprecedented in our history. I want to make it clear that there was no conspiracy of any kind by Ministers to deceive this House, the Labour Party or anyone. I believe it is apparent to any fair-minded person, from the facts put on the record of this House, that there was no deliberate misleading of this House. No one doubts now that the events and, indeed, the extraordinary speed at which events moved, were unprecedented, and that is certainly so in my experience.

I accept that errors were made but I am absolutely convinced that any such errors were the result of the extraordinary pressures brought to bear on Ministers over the duration of this crisis.

What was the reason for the seven months delay in the Smyth case? Will somebody tell the House?

The Deputy will get her chance.

Order. I am calling the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry, Deputy Joe Walsh.

You are all avoiding the issue.

That will be discussed tomorrow.

Deputy Doyle will have to restrain herself.

The Attorney General has given a complete report on that.

The Minister is sharing time. It is of a limited nature and he should be allowed to utilise it without provocation of this kind.

Waffling and papering over.

That is unfair.

Perhaps the Minister will tell us the reason for the seven months delay in processing the Smyth case. What is the reason?

The Deputy should avail of an opportunity of participating in this debate.

I will if I can.

In the meantime, she should allow others to speak without interruption.

Is it possible to be allowed address the House, A Cheann Comhairle?

The Chair is seeking to ensure that for you, as he does for all Members of this House.

No papering or waffling.

I want to put on the record of the House my recollection of the events of the few days in question. On Monday morning, 14 November, Fianna Fáil Ministers met informally in the ante room of the Taoiseach's office to discuss the political situation that had arisen.

I want to make clear the background against which this meeting took place. It was not a formal sit down meeting in that Ministers moved in and out of the room at random. Some left from time to time to return to their Departments to deal with urgent business, others gave media interviews and some attended official functions. Telephone calls were made and taken in the room by individual Ministers from time to time.

On or about 1 o'clock the new Attorney General came into the room to give an initial briefing to Ministers on the reasons for the seven months delay in the Fr. Brendan Smyth case. Neither I, the Government nor this House has yet been given a satisfactory reason for that seven months delay. It was referred to, as the House will recall, in the new Attorney General's initial report a few days ago and the best he could come up with was that the file lay dormant for a considerable part of that time. That was in the report for anyone to read. That, of course, is unsatisfactory and is not a reasonable account either to the Government or to this House but having perused all the relevant files, that was the best the new Attorney General could come up with and we have to accept that.

Too hot to handle.

My understanding of the new Attorney General's briefing was that it was a preliminary one because of his short length of time in the job, from 9 o'clock that morning. He adverted to three issues which he claimed to be important in the processing of the Fr. Smyth case. First, it seemed to him that if a straightforward inquiry had been made as to the residence of Fr. Smyth, that is Kilnacrott Abbey, that would have established the factual position. That was not a reasonable excuse for the delay. Second, it appeared to him on first glance that the Smyth case was not the first dealt with under section 50 (2) (bbb) of the 1987 Extradition Act. This was, in his view, not a reason for the delay either.

He went on to make it clear that there was a divergence of opinion in relation to this matter as to whether these sections were considered or applied under the section. The new Attorney General indicated that he felt there was no excuse for the delay in processing the warrants because the more recent cases would, in his opinion, fall to be considered under the terms of the relevant section. My understanding was that he conveyed that the warrants for the most recent alleged crimes could have been processed without reference to section 50 (2) (bbb) of the 1987 Act.

The new Attorney General was asked a number of questions in relation to the matter. For example, because of the conflict of opinion in relation to the matter, he was asked whether he could say with certainty that the Fr. Smyth case was the first of its kind. He said he could not say with certainty because the senior official dealing with this file disagreed violently with him on the matter. He was then asked whom the other case related to and he said he did not know because he had not yet sufficient time to check the file in detail. It later emerged that this was the Duggan case. He was then asked who signed the warrant and, in particular, if the former Attorney General, Mr. Harry Whelehan, signed the warrant for the alleged second case. He said he did not know because he did not have the time "to flick over the pages to establish that".

It is my recollection that the new Attorney General was asked to clarify these matters and to report back in writing on the issue as soon as he had a full report on the matter. To my personal knowledge there was no definitive response on this matter until late on Tuesday night when a response in writing was forwarded to the Taoiseach. I was not present at any further briefings by the Atorney General or at any meeting after the adjournment of the House on Tuesday night. I was personally not aware of any dispatch on any matter from the new Attorney General or anyone else to the former Attorney General either on Monday or Tuesday until I read about it in the newspapers.

There was a great deal of disorganisation, confusion and pressure in relation to the events surrounding the last few weeks and in particular during Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. My recollection of events is an honest and factual one, based on my knowledge of the events on the days that are the subject of this debate. I assure the House and the public that I never at any time set out to do anything dishonest, to deceive anyone or conceal anything from the House or anyone else. I further believe that none of my colleagues did anything of that kind either.

A list of Judases. None of them was there.

We should be clear as to what the debate is about. It is about truth. Fianna Fáil Ministers stand indicted of misleading the Dáil and the people. If we cast aside all the facts and figures, statements and speeches made in recent weeks we are left with that core point. It is clear to everyone that the truth was not upheld and the Dáil and the people were misled. I remind the House of the old saying that truth is great and shall prevail, when all is done the lie shall rot. The lie has been rotting away for some time. Hopefully we will get at the truth over the next few days as I do not believe we have heard it.

The statements by Ministers need to be subjected to cross-examination before we can ascertain the basis for their actions in recent weeks. I do not know if it is significant but I looked for copies of Ministers' speeches and have not been able to obtain them. Perhaps they do not want them to have a wide circulation. Apart from basic courtesy, copies of those speeches should be made available to interested Members. It is even more important that members of the Select Committee on Legislation and Security who are expected to conduct an investigation at 10.30 a.m. tomorrow should have access to those statements. As a member of that committee, I expect to have a full dossier of all the speeches and statements made by the Taoiseach, Tánaiste and Ministers over the last number of weeks made available to me by the Government at 10.30 a.m. How can we fully assess the matter unless we are aware of what was said by Ministers in the Dáil over the last few weeks? We cannot afford to have a sketchy examination of the issues tomorrow. We must examine them in detail and get at the truth which has not been exposed.

I followed the issues very carefully but I still do not know why in the Office of the Attorney General there was a delay of seven months in dealing with the Smyth case. I know the present Attorney General did his best but it is not good enough. I am not saying that to him but to those who should be in a position to give the evidence to him. That question must be clarified fully tomorrow. It is not sufficient to say that the file appeared to be long dormant. Why did it lie dormant? Why were other files on extradition dealt with expeditiously or reasonably as is obvious from the replies given by the British Attorney General? The people and the House are entitled to an answer. They have not received one yet and we must keep digging until they do so.

I do not believe we have received the full facts regarding the appointment of Harry Whelehan as President of the High Court. Why the resolute determination of the Taoiseach, supported by Fianna Fáil Ministers, to insist on the appointment of Harry Whelehan as President of the High Court? We have not received a satisfactory answer to that question. Vague references were made to precedents. I know there is a precedent that a judicial vacancy is normally offered to the Attorney General but that is as an ordinary judge of the High Court or Supreme Court. The position of Chief Justice was vacant due to the retirement of Justice Finlay. There was no question of Harry Whelehan seeking or being offered that position but because of the promotion of Judge Liam Hamilton, the presidency of the High Court became vacant. Why was Harry Whelehan insistent on becoming President of the High Court when the normal procedure would have been to appoint one of the existing judges and offer him the resulting vacancy as an ordinary judge of the High Court? The Taoiseach has not given a satisfactory explanation as to why he was prepared to countenance the resolute determination of Harry Whelehan to be appointed to that position.

As regards the Monday and the reference to the extraordinary pressures under which Fianna Fáil Ministers worked, no explanation has been given as to why there were extraordinary pressures. If it were a simple case of telling the truth there would hardly have been any reason to have a meeting, yet from the picture painted by the Attorney General, Fianna Fáil Ministers ran around like headless chickens. They were in and out of the meeting making telephone calls. They were tired and there was a lack of judgment. Why? That has not been explained either.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Dukes. I am a member of the Select Committee on Legislation and Security and I want to do a good job tomorrow. I want to know what arrangements will be made regarding the committee's affairs. It is chaired by a member of the Government party. I will question him tomorrow about the arrangements he made regarding procedures, attendance of witnesses, compellability of witnesses and the furnishing of documents. I know it is not the responsibility of the Ceann Comhairle but I give notice here so the Government know that these issues will be raised tomorrow. We do not want the excuse that the Government was not given notice — I am serving notice of what will happen tomorrow.

Take note of the time, it is 9.10 p.m.

We want arrangements for a proper investigation tomorrow, where witnesses including the Taoiseach, all Fianna Fáil Ministers and the Chief Whip will be available.

You can have a tealady if you like.

We want the present and former Attorney General.

And the janitor.

We want official A.

We want the Deputy there.

I will be there.

We also want the other people who knew about the warrants in relation to the Smyth case, the Garda Commissioner, the Chief State Solicitor and officials from the Department of Justice who were dealing with it.

Deputies will do all that in one day?

They can have the airline pilot and the plane as well as a stewardess.

The Deputy, without interruption.

I wish to give notice that we intend having a full investigation tomorrow and will brook no excuses. We want all the proper arrangements put in place by the Government so that the investigation can take place.

On a point of order——

I am reluctant to entertain points of order in a debate with strict time limits and a Deputy offering who is sharing time.

I will give one minute of my time to Deputy Dukes.

That is a function of the Chair.

The chairmen and committees order their own business, not the Government. The Government will not interfere in that process.

That is a matter for the committee. Deputy Alan Dukes without interruption.

It is very clear from the matters put on the record of the House today that the Fianna Fáil Ministers of the outgoing Government are now doubly damned over this issue. The Tánaiste read, without notice to the House, an account by the Attorney General of his activities on the Sunday, Monday and Tuesday in question. It is very clear from that account that the Fianna Fáil members of the Government had available to them on Monday, and understood on that day, information about the Duggan case. The Attorney General made it clear in the report which the Tánaiste read out today that he had reason to believe up to some time on the Tuesday afternoon — he could have had this only from members of the Government — that material about the Duggan case was to be included in the speech to be made in the House that afternoon by the Taoiseach. The Fianna Fáil members of the Government knew what that information was, knew it was available and knew its significance.

That is the central point at issue here and it will not wash any longer for Ministers to beat their breasts and say they might have been stupid, tired or any one of a dozen other things. They had the information and knew what it meant and somebody at some point on that Monday or Tuesday decided to withhold the information not only from their erstwhile partners in Government but also from the Dáil and the public. This has been made abundantly clear not only in the Attorney General's report, which was read into the record of the House by the Tánaiste this afternoon, but also by the remarks made in the House this evening by the Minister for Justice. If there was ever a more damning indictment of those Ministers than that delivered by the Minister for Justice I have not yet heard it.

It is very clear that the full import of that information was understood by Members of the Government. If it was not understood how could they have concluded that the information was such as to justify a request to the President of the High Court to consider his position? Regardless of the gloss the Tánaiste might like to put on those words, a request to a person in that position to consider his position can only be read as a suggestion that he should stand aside or perhaps resign. If that information about the Duggan case and the Ministers' understanding of it were such as to justify asking the Attorney General to ask the President of the High Court to consider his position then it is very clear that it was information which should have been given to this House, the public and the former partners in Government of these Fianna Fáil Ministers.

Those two statements and the other confusion in the House this afternoon illustrate the full extent of Ministers' understanding of the meaning of that case and that the import of the information was understood to the point where Ministers decided it was in their interest to hide the information.

This has been demonstrated not by any words of mine or of anybody else on this side of the House but by the words, admissions and reports put on the record of the House this afternoon by the Tánaiste and the Minister for Justice, to speak of only two.

Would the Deputy like to tell the House the decisions he reversed on his colleague when he succeeded him in——

Do not interrupt me, Noel. When one is in a hole, one stops digging and Fianna Fáil is in a fairly parlous position.

Neither I nor my colleagues are in a hole.

Fianna Fáil is now further below sea level than the Labour Party. It is a scandal that it has taken so long——

A partisan——

Please, Deputies.

Careful, Alan, you could get a job — you were on the television a while ago playing for John.

It is a scandal that it has taken this long for that information to come out and for those admissions to be made. It was very clear from the demeanour of the Government on 16 November last, the day the Taoiseach resigned, that there was much more to this case than met the eye. It is to the credit of the leader, Deputy John Bruton, and other members of the party that we have maintained that position ever since. It does not do any great credit to the understanding of the Labour Party that it apparently took until last week for it to understand the full significance of what was going on. It was as plain as a pikestaff from 16 November on, that information had been deliberately withheld from this House by Fianna Fáil Ministers. I do not know how many of them understood it — all of them might not have understood it — but the Minister for Justice, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste certainly understood it because they have all admitted it in different ways. I am not sure if the Minister for Tourism and Trade fully understood this — he may have been tired, jetlagged and lacking sleep but——

He is still a good man.

The Minister should be quiet.

The Deputy will never get me to be quiet.

Whatever else the Minister for Tourism and Trade may be he is not a fool or stupid. I put it to him that he was part of this operation to withhold vital information from this House. I would like all the other Ministers present in the House to give their version of the level of their knowledge about the implications of this matter. I regret that it has taken so long for that penny to drop with the Labour Party. If this had been clear earlier this matter might have been cleared up for good and all much earlier.

It is striking that it took until today to get the agreement of a majority in the House to allow us to examine Ministers and other people in the way proposed tomorrow. This should have been decided on 16 November. There would not be any need for this if the Government had acted properly when the information became available to it.

The two parties which were in Government together have made much mileage in recent weeks about openness, accountability and the need to put new structures of various types in place. However, they should not try to fool the public. At the end of the day it matters little what structures or rules are in place if there is not at least the minimum required degree of honesty and openness among the people who operate them. It does not matter how many rules one has or how perfect a system is if the people who operate them decide they will conceal information. On the other hand, if the responsible people approach their jobs with the proper degree of openness then one does not need elaborate structures and systems to get at the truth and have it brought out.

I imagine there will be a fashion in coming weeks to talk about structures but the central message is that it does not matter a damn what structures one has if the people operating them do not want to make them work. It is clear, beyond any shadow of a doubt, on the admissions of the Attorney General, the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Minister for Justice that these Fianna Fáil Ministers did not want to make the system work because they felt it was to their advantage — short term perhaps — to hide that information. They deserve to be remembered for the rest of their lives for that attempt.

The Deputy would know that well.

I wish to share my time with the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Dempsey.

I have come into this House to give my best account of the matters under discussion. In many ways I am glad to have this opportunity. I admit that in media interviews yesterday, I failed to hide my frustration at the constant regurgitation of the great conspiracy theory.

The events which led to this debate are proof positive of the view that many people, particularly politicians and political pundits, prefer to believe that deep conspiracies, rather than human frailties, lie behind most events. Unlike most political commentators and many on the opposition benches, I am not blessed with powers of total recall.

From Friday 4 November to Sunday 13 November I led a Bord Tráchtála Trade Mission to South Africa. I left Capetown at 4 p.m. Irish time on Sunday 13 November and via three separate flights I arrived in Dublin just after 8 a.m. on Monday 14 November.

The events under discussion took place at a speed and in a climate of crisis which has rarely, if ever, been seen in and around these buildings. My recollection is not based on any contemporaneous notes but it is the best that I can do. There are three fundamental truths which have to be stated: mistakes were made on all sides; there was no conspiracy among Fianna Fáil Ministers to mislead the Dáil and if the word and bona fides of those Fianna Fáil Ministers is not accepted, there certainly can be no new partnership Government between Fianna Fáil and any other party.

The first and most significant mistake was the appointment of Mr. Whelehan as President of the High Court on Friday, 11 November in the absence of the Labour Party Ministers. In hindsight the appointment should not have been made, but it can be understood in the context of the Baldonnel discussions between the Taoiseach and the then Tánaiste some weeks earlier and in the context of the misinterpretation of the walkout from Government of the Labour Ministers.

To those who pour scorn on this misinterpretation, I ask that they compare and contrast the Labour Ministers leaving the Cabinet table, but not Government, on 11 November with their leaving the Cabinet room and Government in January 1987.

In January 1987 everybody knew that when the Labour Ministers left the Cabinet room they were also leaving the Government and that an election would ensue. On this occasion nobody knew the purpose of their leaving and my Fianna Fáil colleagues certainly misinterpreted it. I further submit that the Labour Party Ministers themselves did not know what they were doing.

The second mistake was that we did not recognise the first mistake over the weekend or on Monday, 14 November. This was due to a combination of factors: pure stubborness; woolly signals from Labour Party Ministers, who did not themselves know what they wanted to hear and a lack of a critical analysis of the former Attorney General's report on the Smyth case.

I readily admit that the handling of the Fianna Fáil response was disorganised, even chaotic, at times. Apart from too many cooks and tiredness, the fact that many did not see the appointment of Mr. Whelehan as the fundamental mistake meant that time and energy were wasted on other arguments.

To the best of my very hazy recollection, the initial presentation of the new Attorney General, Mr. Fitzsimons, on the Duggan case was less than clear and he was asked to clarify his position and in writing. Among other things, the issue of whether Duggan or Smyth was the first case of this kind was, according to the Attorney General, hotly disputed by the senior expert official in his office.

In any event, the issue was not collectively viewed as being clear enough to warrant a mention in the Taoiseach's speech, but it was not deliberately left out. If one of the many authors of that speech had inserted a sentence to the effect that the Attorney General's review had raised a question about other cases, no one would have objected.

I have no recollection of being informed on Monday, 14 November, of contact being made with the President of the High Court. To the best of my recollection, the first time I was informed of contact between the Attorney General and the President of the High Court was during Tuesday night, 15 November.

The Taoiseach has accepted full responsibility for his speech to the Dáil on Tuesday, 15 November. In effect he says he delivered it, he is responsible for it. In so far as mistakes were made, responsibility has been accepted. The Taoiseach has resigned.

On Sunday Deputy John Bruton was accused of defamation. Did his Front Bench colleagues know what he was going to say? Should they be sued as well if they do not disassociate themselves? If he mentioned what he was going to say to his wife in the car on the way to RTE and if she did not immediately ask to go on air to disagree, is she liable to be sued as well?

Clever, shallow and facile.

Bluntly, I have had my bellyfull of myself and my Fianna Fáil colleagues being portrayed by other politicians and the media over a long period of time as being dishonest and totally unfit for office. It is not just this particular crisis that has brought these matters to the forefront but it has been the underlying raison d'etre of nearly all the political comment of the past decade.

Strangely, most of our opponents can recall that some of their best friends are Fianna Fáil supporters or even Ministers. Does some kind of osmosis occur which permeates through all Fianna Fáil people when they meet collectively in either the cumann, the Parliamentary Party and, horror of horrrors, when they are in Government? What do commentators and politicians mean when they say the Fianna Fáil culture must be changed and the Fianna Fáil Party cleansed?

I look around the House and recognise members of other parties, who themselves were in the past, and in many cases whose families still are, supporters and members of the Fianna Fáil organisation. These people were, and in many cases are, still part of the Fianna Fáil culture which we are told needs to be decontaminated.

Since this debate is about openness and transparency, and since the motion before the House wants answers from Fianna Fáil Ministers, I submit that this openness should not just be confined to them. Regarding this controversy, there are many questions that I would like to put to each of my former Labour Party Ministers, but I will confine myself to just a few.

The Labour Party resigned because of what it describes as a breach of trust. In so far as there was a breach, it occurred on Friday, 11 November. The man who chaired that meeting, the Taoiseach, paid the ultimate price and resigned as Taoiseach and as Fianna Fáil leader.

Notwithstanding, that breach of trust of Friday, 11 November, and subsequent events the Labour Party Ministers were prepared on Wednesday 16 November at 10.22 a.m. to go back into Government with all those Ministers who took the decision the previous Friday to appoint Harry Whelehan.

Yet within 90 minutes, as a result of a conversation between Deputy Spring and the new Attorney General, the Labour Party withdrew that commitment and later resigned from Government. Subsequently, as we all know, the Taoiseach and the Government resigned.

Despite all the foregoing, the Labour Party once again decided to enter negotiations with a new Fianna Fáil leader, Deputy Bertie Ahern, with a view to reentering Government. The agreement was to be signed yesterday, and today we would be electing a new Taoiseach and appointing a new Government. Just as the marriage was to be consummated, the blushing bride once again fled the church, this time as a result of an article in The Irish Times.

I would like to know, and I submit most of the Irish people would like to know why the Labour Party on the occasions outlined earlier in my speech was prepared to consider going back into Government with Fianna Fáil?

I honestly believe that it is because that neither Deputy Dick Spring nor any of his former Labour Ministers who sat in Government with me believe in their hearts that any of the Fianna Fáil Ministers deliberately conspired to deceive anybody and that is why they nearly signed the marriage register on at least two occasions in the last month.

I ask Deputies Spring, Quinn, Taylor, Michael D. Higgins, Howlin and Bhreathnach the following question, and I want to hear their answer in this House: Do they believe that I conspired with my Fianna Fáil ministerial colleagues to deliberately deceive Dáil Éireann and the Irish people? I enjoyed working in government with my Labour colleagues and I found them as open, as honest, as transparent and as accountable as any of my Fianna Fáil colleagues. I want to hear from them in this Chamber what they honestly believe I, and my Fianna Fáil ministerial colleagues, have been up to since Friday 11 November?

I have stated many times in recent weeks that on this occasion Fianna Fáil is being hanged for the wrong offence. The appointment of Mr. Whelehan in the absence of Labour Ministers was wrong and a huge price has been paid for the offence caused by that appointment. My Fianna Fáil colleagues and I perpetrated no offence on the Labour party, the Dáil or the people of Ireland on Monday, 14 November, or Tuesday, 15 November, but if my former colleagues in Government choose to believe otherwise, so be it. I, for one, will be happy to allow the people of Kildare judge my bona fides and my honesty.

I wish to outline the events as I recall them since Friday, 11 November.

I attended a Cabinet meeting on 11 November at which Mr. Harry Whelehan was appointed president of the High Court. I am not aware of any meeting of Ministers on Sunday, 13 November.

On Monday, 14 November, Fianna Fáil Ministers met in the ante room of the Taoiseach's office to discuss the current political situation. This was not a formal meeting in the normal sense in that Ministers moved in and out of the room at random and some left for considerable periods of time to attend at their Departments, to do media interviews and to attend official functions.

The new Attorney General came into the room to brief Ministers on what I understood to be his preliminary findings on his investigation into the Fr. Brendan Smyth affair. He mentioned three issues about the delay in processing the Fr. Smyth case, namely, the fact that there was no inquiry made to establish if Fr. Smyth was actually staying at the address in Kilnacrott stated on the warrants; the fact that it appeared that the Smyth case was not the first case dealt with under section 50 (2) (bbb) of the 1987 Extradition Act and there was a dispute about whether these sections were "applied" or "considered"; and the Attorney General indicated that he felt that there was no need for the delay in processing the warrants because the more recent cases would not fall to be considered under the terms of the relevant section. By this I understand he meant that the warrants for the more recent alleged crimes could have been processed without reference to section 50 (2) (bbb) of the Act.

The Attorney General indicated at that time that there was "disagreement" between him and a senior person in his office on the second and possibly the third point. He later said there was "violent disagreement" on the matter.

It is my clear understanding of that meeting that the Attorney General was asked to clarify these matters and to report back definitively on the issue. I was not aware of any definitive response on this matter until late on Tuesday night when I heard of a letter written by the Attorney General to the Taoiseach.

Following the Attorney General's statement on Monday afternoon, I was concerned to establish if I had inadvertently misled the Dáil on 26 October in answer to a question from Deputy O'Donnell on the Smyth affair on an Adjournment debate. I asked the Attorney General to clarify, on the basis of his remarks, whether I had inadvertently misled the Dáil. I asked him to look at the material sent over from his office but also to look at the transcripts of the Dáil debate, because I did not use all of the material sent from his office, and to advise me when he had done so.

Some time on Tuesday I asked if he had formed an opinion as the whether I had misled the Dáil. He indicated that he had not had a chance to do so because of all the activity during the day.

On Wednesday evening I again asked the Attorney General if he had formed an opinion. He informed me that he felt it was better for me to inform the House about the matter. I informed the Ceann Comhairle's office and indicated that I intended to make a statement to the House on the matter.

My original intention was to make that statement in the confidence debate on Thursday 17 November, but events overtook that. The report of the Attorney General on the Fr. Brendan Smyth affair indicated I got incorrect information and inadvertently misled the Dáil on the basis of that information. I now formally apologise for that.

My statement is brief, it is honest and probably does not reflect the confusion that surrounded events or the pressures of what has been a deeply traumatic period in the life of this Dáil and in my own political life. It is based on the facts, as I know them, of the events on the days in question. I assure you sir, the Members of this House and the general public that I never, at any time, set out to do anything dishonest, to deceive this House or anyone else, and I do not believe that any of my colleagues did either.

I wish to refer to the contributions of Deputies Harney and Jim O'Keeffe regarding tomorrow's committee meeting. As Members of the House will be aware, the Fianna Fáil Party put forward a motion on the Order of Business today to deal with all the matters relating to the Fr. Brendan Smyth affair in what its members believe would be a proper and fair manner for everybody concerned. We made a proposal that a senior legal or judical figure should be appointed by the House to inquire into all of these matters, to call Members of the House, the Government and anybody else to endeavour to get at the truth of this matter. That was overruled by Opposition Deputies.

Deputy O'Keeffe spoke about getting to the bottom of this matter tomorrow and about summoning the Garda Commissioner, all Ministers, the former and present Attorneys General, and the janitor if necessary. We do not have a difficulty in that regard, but the committee has been asked to give a full report to the House at 10.00 a.m. on Thursday morning. Do the Deputies opposite really want to get to the bottom of this matter? Do they want to get at the truth or do they merely want to cause as much confusion in the shortest time possible so they can continue to denigrate and cast slurs on members of my party? There is no seriousness in the Opposition proposal to have this matter fully investigated if they propose dealing with it in less than 24 hours. That committee must order its business tomorrow morning and interview all the people pertaining to this matter. If its 30 members wish to put one question to each Minister, it would not be possible for it to operate under the strictures placed on it by this House. I ask Members opposite to reconsider the Fianna Fáil proposal to allow an inquiry, similar to the Scott inquiry in Great Britain, which would have the power to summon Ministers, Attorneys General and others, and allow the House to give the committee the powers to carry out its functions properly. If Members opposite are serious about getting at the truth rather than making political accusations, they should reconsider this matter, admit they were wrong regarding Thursday morning and allow the committee take its course.

I propose to share my time with Deputy Sargent.

I am sure that is agreed.

In the closing tenor of the Minister of State's speech I perceived a preference to a public inquiry, somewhat similar to the Scott Inquiry. Judging from my experience as a member of the Committee of Public Acounts the only equivalent of the Scott Inquiry we have had here was the Tribunal of Inquiry into the Beef Processing Industry but the remarkable difference between the two was in the cost and timing.

Completely different.

Yes, completely different.

But that is another story. At the meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts last week, and at many previous meetings, very serious thought and consideration was given to the manner in which the tribunal was established, its cost to the taxpayer and its eventual outcome in establishing whether anybody was better off, with one or two exceptions. However I shall not go in to that.

If there is one lesson to be learned from the happenings of the past three weeks surely it is that one of the dangers of a democracy — I have repeated this opinion several times in this House in recent years — something that has grown up is the tendency to deflect parliamentary questions in the House. Avoiding to give answers to questions has become common place, clever, slick and smart, even though the question may have been asked directly. Repeatedly over the past six months it has been suggested that perhaps we did not ask the right question so that the people opposite could not have given the right answer. For ever more the lesson to be learned by everybody in this House is not to attempt to avoid answering a question directly when it is clearly known to people, in whose hands the relevant question is that it is fundamental to the subject under discussion. That is the lesson that has to be learned from all this debate. It can easily be maintained that GUBU time is here again, that we have relived it over the past three weeks — the most incredible circumstances, when the simplest of meeting or appointment could easily have been resolved was thrown away completely by people who acted in a totally grotesque fashion. No rational person looking at these happenings from the outside will ever understand how the Government managed to screw up the position in the way it did. If that were done in any business all of those involved would have been sacked immediately. It was the most incredible situation I have ever witnessed.

Lest anybody think I am merely telling my own story, I should say it is not just my story. We on this side of the House have had to go back time out of number attempting to get answers to questions which should be readily available. This is a democracy; there should be no attempt whatsoever to conceal information from the Opposition. Indeed it is with a view to protecting the House itself, and the Government at any time, that such information should be made available to the Opposition. For some unknown reason there has crept into this House the theory or notion — obviously on the Government side — that the withholding of vital information from the Opposition was a score; whenever there is a score it is an own goal. All Members of the House must learn to endeavour to avoid that type of ridiculous and stupid occurrence in the future. There is nothing whatever to be gained at any time from attempting to withhold information which should be legitimately available to the Opposition, to the Houses of the Oireachtas. It is there decisions were taken in the past couple of weeks. This House took decisions today, took decisions two weeks ago and will be taking others over the next few days.

If there is one lesson to be learned from this entire débacle surely it must be for all Ministers in future to give the House the information sought and not attempt the kind of filibustering we have witnessed in recent times. For example, in answer to a simple question, it was not unknown — within a severely restricted Question Time — to receive a ten or 15-minute speech by way of reply but when one checked its contents one discovered all of the information repeated to the House many times in various other replies over the preceding six months. Anybody outside looking at what was taking place here must have thought this was the way things were done and must have begun viewing the workings of the Dáil with a certain amount of suspicion and cynicism. I will be kind and not name Ministers. There were one or two always willing to give information, who never attempted to withhold it, but there were a few less willing. There were a few who have repeatedly, I stress repeatedly, avoided giving answers to questions put to them directly. Had the Government not been so clever, had not attempted to withhold information in their possession, they might have been quite happy today. Far be it from me to preach to them. That is the lesson I perceive we must all learn from this experience.

I do not want to go over points raised already by other Members, I do not want to create rancour or make any remarks which would be offensive to any of the people on the opposite side of the House — I am sure this time is sufficiently traumatic for them — but I hope that the lessons of the past couple of weeks will serve us all in good stead in the future. It would be my hope that, resulting from the trauma that has beset this House, the Dáil and democracy in this country will reap the rewards in the years ahead.

The tortuous, calamitous events we are witnessing, if not so serious, would be reminiscent of Hamlet or some such Shakespearean play being played out by a leaving certificate English class, there having been so much preoccupation with who said what, when they said it, how they said it, what they meant when they said it, who was in which place and when. That is not all that politics is about. Indeed we appear to be losing sight of the real meaning of government when the public become fascinated with the minutiae. However, it is important to maintain a broader picture.

There is no doubt that this Government has been humiliated, to a large extent, of its own making. Its humiliation goes beyond the abilities of "Scrap Saturday" and/or Dermot Morgan. That being said, it is important to ascertain where it has fallen down. The lessons we learn from that examination give rise to the necessity not merely to the maintenance of principles and objectives but to a clear commitment to put in place mechanisms and Government reform, not merely in this House but of the manner in which we conduct our business at all levels, ranging right from the individual to central Government. All of those matters need to be examined with three yardsticks, each of which has been seen to fall short in the lifetime of this Government — accessibility, accountability and responsibility. All the talk of principles and openness clearly counts for little unless something is done to ensure that they do not fall by the wayside again.

From the point of view of the Green Party there is a number of measures important for any Government at any given time. Devolution is the first item on our agenda, radical, long overdue devolution. This is something other parties call for but are very slow to give way to when afforded an opportunity to put it into practice. There is no doubt but that subterfuge dealings have been encouraged by our centralised State apparatus, which gives rise to the temptation to conceal and/or centralise decisions.

A fixed parliamentary term must be examined because of the inevitable instability that will arise unless, as in the case of the European Parliament, we know where we stand in terms of Government, their period of office and what can be achieved within that period. It is important to remove from parties in Government the power cynically to threaten their Government partners with a general election. This power has resulted in the use of what can only be described as boot boy tactics at Cabinet and in Dáil Éireann. It is used also by the minority party threatening to pull out of Government. All this gives rise to instability which prevents the implementation of the type of programme that is required.

The concept of Government reform is better understood in the light of the humiliation of the Government Chief Whip, Deputy Noel Dempsey, who has had to repeat again and again the word "honesty" like a schoolboy brought before the headmaster who has to keep protesting his innocence. It is probably similar to the humiliation felt by people on social welfare in the face of means testing and the scrutinising of their affairs by strangers, often in an unsympathetic way. Such humiliation is inflicted day after day and it is reminiscent of what some Ministers, and indeed the Taoiseach, have had to put up with here. To get over that we must look at schemes such as those proposed not only by the Green Party but by the Conference of Religious of Ireland, the ERSI and Fine Gael when it decides to formulate some meaningful policies for employment and comes up with a guaranteed basic income scheme. It is time we understood the humiliation felt by people depending on social welfare who are means tested on a weekly basis. The introduction of a guaranteed basic income scheme would not only remove the labyrinth of schemes and benefits but would remove the false dichotomy in society between those who are busy working, sometimes at two jobs like many councillors and Dáil Deputies, and those who are without paid employment and who resent people in Government who have very busy schedules and large salaries. That unjust distribution of paid work gets to people and it is understandable that it creates hostility and alienation.

It is worth remembering that there are many people working at home who are not, as far as they can see, valued by society because they get no payment for looking after children and elderly relatives. However, they see us in this House and Ministers getting large increases in salary even though they are under a cloud at the moment.

Freedom of information has been widely talked about but legislation has not been introduced, despite many promises. After the election of the new Government, whatever shape that may take, it should be a priority to introduce a freedom of information Bill based on the US or Swedish models. The aim of such legislation would be not only to make the decision-making process open to public scrutiny but to have such information available in clearly understood user-friendly format. We have seen how hand scribbled notes are interpreted as information coming to light. That breeds the sort of antipathy and alienation which we would not wish to see in society.

The question of political funding is another topic on which people outside this House have much to say. The proposals to regulate the funding of political parties do not go far enough. The Green Party believes that all donations to political parties should be publicly acknowledged. It is important for the public to understand — perhaps my Fianna Fáil colleagues will enlighten me — how Fianna Fáil managed to acquire £3 million in the life of this Dáil. Such questions ought to be answered, as well as the other questions we are hoping to have answered.

We have no difficulty with that.

Funds are not easy to acquire but Deputy Treacy may not have difficulty, being a member of Fianna Fáil.

The practice of appointment to public bodies by Government Ministers must be brought to an end. The Green Party, Comhaontas Glas, proposes the establishment of a public appointments commission to vet and choose people of ability and appropriate background to serve on public bodies. I am sure the lessons in that regard have been well learned.

In regard to judicial reform, the political crisis has been caused by the practice of political appointment of members of the Judiciary. Most Irish political parties have used their tenure in Government to appoint as judges people who hold similar political views to themselves. This practice has compromised the independence of the Judiciary. This independence can only be restored through the establishment of an independent judicial appointments commission.

In the area of Dáil reform it has been said in regard to parliamentary questions that the position of the Ceann Comhairle must be strengthened to ensure that ministerial questions are answered in the manner in which the questioner intended. This is often not the case.

In regard to legislation, all Members of the Dáil should be given the freedom to do the job which they were elected to do, that is, producing legislation. It is grudgingly possible through Private Members' Business but often not meaningful in any sense. The legislative straitjacket whereby only the Government has the right to produce legislation must be removed through better allocation of Dáil time and the consideration of all legislation on its merits rather than on its origin.

The dual mandate must be removed. To give Members of the Dáil time to do the job they were elected to do, the perceived requirement among Dáil Deputies to hold on to their council seats must be removed. Our maturity as a democracy depends on separating local and national levels of Government.

There must be an end to Cabinet confidentiality. The Supreme Court decision on Cabinet confidentiality made during the beef tribunal must be changed through constitutional amendment. I understand that has already been raised at Government level.

Such a programme of objectives could form the basis of a reforming two and a half year national Government and unite an otherwise disparate rainbow of political forces into a coherent and worthwhile Government.

The Green Party, Comhaontas Glas, believes that the blame for shoddy standards in public life which have brought about the current crisis cannot be laid solely at the door of the Fianna Fáil Party because all other political parties have had a role when in Government, if not in as concentrated a manner as Fianna Fáil, in the failure to bring about an open society. If we are to have a general election, as seems inevitable, that election will primarily be about the Fianna Fáil Party, its culture and its behaviour. The three main aspects of Fianna Fáil which need fuller explanation include first its stranglehold on the apparatus of the State, from the lowliest quango at county level — and there are many examples — to the national anthem, the first few words of which illustrate my point; second, its peculiar and deep rooted sinister style of operating which has been exposed but at the same time tolerated by Labour in the course of the 27th Dáil; third, its private party funding. I would be delighted to hear from the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Treacy, where Fianna Fáil gets all its money — I refer to the millions, not the pence.

Public functions.

Where will Fianna Fáil, still hugely in debt, get the funds for a general election campaign which will likely see it lose substantially in terms of voter support and Dáil representation? What favours will Fianna Fáil be calling in, what subterfuge promises will they be making in back rooms, hotel rooms and bar rooms, not to mention ballrooms, in the course of the election campaign?

It is a shame that the Labour Party Members cannot be here to hear this — perhaps they are listening elsewhere. The Labour Party went into the last election talking about change and Fianna Fáil not being fit for Government, but they went into Government with Fianna Fáil. If they can go to the country this time making a commitment not to go into Government with Fianna Fáil perhaps they may retain some credibility. Otherwise they will get a shock. When will elected representatives learn that we do not need just to talk about minimalist coalitions where instability is the name of the game? Consideration can be given to a broader arrangement similar to the peace forum where all parties make a worthwhile input. When will the people learn that they do not have to wait until this House gets its business in order to deal with matters efficiently? They can organise and empower themselves locally and do not have to be like rabbits blinded by headlights. I hope people will act and not wait for this sorry Government to get its house in order.

I wish to share my time with the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Smith.

I am sure that is satisfactory and agreed.

I will be brief in my contribution. I am glad of the opportunity to clarify my position in regard to the matters referred to in the motion before the House. I do not agree with the intention of the motion regarding the business for tomorrow because I am not certain that tomorrow will be a good day for parlimentary democracy in that much of what will be before the committee may be challenged. Tomorrow will be a difficult day in the history of this House.

I would have preferred our motion proposing that the standing Order of Dail Éireann relative to Public Business be suspended today pursuant to Standing Order 143 for the particular purpose of discussing a motion to request a person of judicial or senior legal status to inquire on behalf of the House into all the circumstances surrounding the Fr. Brendan Smyth case and to give that person the necessary powers to summon all persons relevant to the inquiry and to report back to the House as a matter of urgency and that the following arrangements shall apply to the debate: (1) that statements of the Taoiseach, Tánaiste, the Leader of Fine Gael, the Leader of the Labour Party, the Leader of the Progressive Democrats Party and the Leader of the Democratic Left Party shall not exceed 30 minutes in each case; (2) statements from other Members shall not exceed 20 minutes and (3) the Dáil shall adjourn at 10.30 p.m. tonight. That motion was concise and pithy and I thought it should have been the route we took rather than this one. However, a vote was taken on the matter and we are bound by it.

I support the account of the matter given by my party Leader, Deputy Ahern. There was no collusion of Fianna Fáil Ministers nor a conspiracy to deceive the Dáil. Having listened to soothsayers in the past few weeks and to the previous contributor one would imagine we have hands in everybody's pockets. Fianna Fáil is not a party of cowboys or chancers. The party's achievements and contribution to the development of this country are a matter of record. I have just finished reading Michael O'Sullivans book on Sean Lemass, a book worth reading to gain an insight into this party's achievements. That is a matter of ascertainable historical record. I and others are the inheritors of those great traditions.

I accept my full share of responsibility for the decisions made and the events that have taken place. I was party to those decisions and I do not deny that. Regarding the happenings on Monday, 14 November 1994, it is well known that in my capacity as Minister for Defence I was in Ballyconnell, County Cavan attending the annual conference of the Representative Association for Commissioned Officers for most of that day. Subject to the fallibility of my memory, I returned from Cavan that evening at approximately 6 p.m. and met my colleagues at 7 p.m. but the decisions relevant to this debate had been taken. Further discussions on the Attorney General's advice did not take place during my presence at that meeting which ended at approximately 2.30 a.m. or 3 a.m.

I wish to record my gratitude to the Taoiseach. I owe him a huge debt of loyalty. I deeply appreciate the privilege and honour he bestowed on me when he appointed me Minister for Foreign Affairs and subsequently Minister for Defence and Minister for the Marine in the service of my country. I believe history will be good to Deputy Reynolds. The Downing Street Declaration of which he was co-author on 15 December 1993 and the peace process of which he was one of the prime movers — not the sole mover — will be writ large in the history books. I had the privilege of being in Derry yesterday where I paid tribute to the son of Derry, the great John Hume, for his part in the peace process. The Taoiseach has much of which to be proud, including the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation, which if it were not in place during the currency of this crisis might be serious for the peace process. That forum is an extremely good one.

I have never dodged an issue in this House, nor have I sought to take refuge in mere technical or procedural niceties. I stand with my Fianna Fáil Government colleagues and whatever happens I will go up or down with them. Fianna Fáil has suffered enough. We now call stop. Our Taoiseach has resigned, a president of the High Court has resigned from office and Fianna Fáil Ministers are on their way out of office. I have no problem with that. I have been in this House for a long time and one takes the rough with the smooth in a parliamentary democracy. I do not say that lightly, it is a matter of record. Perhaps one or two public hangings would finally satiate the Opposition's lust for political blood. What else do they want? How many more heads do they want? This reminds me of my reading of the French Revolution in 1789. That is what this is about. Robespierre and Marat would be in their element in our Opposition at this time.

One of the core issues of this affair may be overlooked. It is important that the Fianna Fáil Leader adverted in his opening remarks to the point that we must not forget victims of abuse and ensure as far as we can that events of such trauma and tragedy do not occur again. It is important that we commit and rededicate ourselves to the implementation of programmes to safeguard innocent children against abuse. Programmes for victim support should be urgently implemented also. I warn politicians to beware of the moral high ground in public life as it is a dangerous place to be.

We live in an imperfect world where human frailty and virtue are part of individuals in every group in every political party, small or large. No party has a monopoly of wisdom; no party enjoys a monopoly of virtue. It is time we stopped the hectoring and the lecturing. It is time the evangelical parties in Opposition realised the moral paradox in employing innuendo and character assassination as political weapons in spurious campaigns and crusades about public standards. It is time they realised that such tactics only serve to undermine the very standards which they so shrilly profess to defend. It is time to stop drawing oxygen from trying to take people out without caring about the reputation or the good name of their target or that of his or her family, without stopping to reflect on the morality issues which underlie that type of approach. To constantly question our motives, to refuse to show even the slightest acceptance of the party's bona fides is not just nonsense, it is dangerous nonsense. It is a gross insult to the many people who have supported our party for a long time.

Like other Members of this House, I entered public life to work, through the democratic system, to improve the lives of the people I represent. I started out in politics on the basis of the high ideals set by the founders of the great political movement that is Fianna Fáil. I believe in those ideals now just as strongly as I did 27 years ago.

I was first elected to the Dáil in 1969. I am sure that those on all sides of this House who have had dealings with me over the years will accept that I have always taken my responsibilities seriously — sometimes, I am told, too seriously. I have sought to uphold the highest standards of public conduct at all times. In particular, I have always operated on the basis that the most important contribution I can make in public life in serving the community I work for is always to be frank, truthful and honest in my involvement in all public affairs.

I want to tell this House that there was no conspiracy to deceive anyone in relation to the Smyth and Duggan cases. There was no deliberate concealment of facts. Yes, mistakes were made and we regret those. We are sorry because of the effect they have had on the public as a whole, on the lives of the individuals involved and on the body politic.

While I did not keep any notes or a diary of all the events, I want to tell the House my recollections of everything of relevance that happened since Thursday evening, 10 November. I was unable to attend the Government meeting on that day as I had a family engagement. I travelled to Cork later that evening. I made arrangements to telephone the Chief Whip to ask whether it would be necessary for me to return to attend the Government meeting on Friday, 11 November. I was advised that agreement had been reached on every matter on the agenda, including the appointment of the Attorney General, Harry Whelehan, to the Presidency of the High Court.

The events of Friday are now well known and there is no need for me to reiterate them. I was not present at the Government meeting on that Friday. I returned to my home on Friday night and I telephoned Deputy Howlin, then Minister for Health, on Saturday morning. I asked him if it would be helpful if I could arrange a meeting with him and one of his colleagues, and perhaps one other Government colleague, to see if it was possible to mend the fences which were obviously badly broken following the decision of the previous day. I subsequently had a return call from Deputy Howlin at 4 o'clock on Saturday afternoon, 12 November, when arrangements were made for a meeting to take place at my house in Dublin at 8 o'clock that evening. The Minister for Justice and myself attended, as did Deputies Quinn and Howlin from the Labour Party. We discussed all the matters leading up to the appointment of the Attorney General and the effects of that decision. The Minister for Justice and myself, when the meeting was concluded, prepared a draft letter which was subsequently agreed to by the Taoiseach for submission to the then Tánaiste, Deputy Spring. We intended that meeting and the subsequent letter to be helpful.

The events of Sunday, 13 November, are well known. The Labour Party met and the then Tánaiste subsequently held a press conference.

The Fianna Fáil Ministers attended a meeting in the ante room of the Taoiseach's office on Monday morning, 14 November. We set out to respond to the impasse which had developed and in particular to address the issues raised by the delay in the Smyth case. Work proceeded and I left at about 12.30 p.m. to attend "News At One". When I returned from that interview I was informed that the Attorney General had attended the meeting of Ministers and that he had informed my colleagues of a number of issues. I was given to understand that he told my colleagues that he had discovered another case in which it appeared to him that the relevant section of the Extradition Act, 1987, may have been considered. I was told that the Attorney General did not recall the name of that case, nor did he know whether the previous Attorney General would have been made aware of it.

I was told that a discussion had taken place about the implications of this information and the possible implications both for the Minister for Justice and the Chief Whip arising from answers they had given in the Dáil on the questions raised by the Smyth case. I was also told that the Taoiseach had asked the Attorney General to check the matter with the former Attorney General and to bring back a definitive report.

I subsequently had a discussion with the Chief Whip, Deputy Dempsey, who told me he had asked the Attorney General to clarify his position because, before he could make a statement to the Dáil, it would be necessary to have the Dáil record checked and to have a definitive reply from the Attorney General. I was told by my colleagues that there was another matter on which the Attorney General disagreed with the former Attorney General in that the warrants could have been executed in the Fr. Brendan Smyth case on the offences which were committed in more recent years. I was also informed that the new Attorney General told a meeting that the senior legal assistant in his office disagreed with his perception of the Duggan case.

Work proceeded on the preparation of the Taoiseach's speech until about 2.30 a.m. on Tuesday, 15 November. I was later informed that the Attorney General had been asked to contact the President of the High Court with a view to asking him to consider deferring his inauguration for a few days because of the sensitivities involved and the fact that he would be appointed at more or less the same time as the Taoiseach would be answering questions on the Smyth case in the Dáil. I learned of this request long after the event. In helping to prepare the Taoiseach's statement my efforts were concentrated on addressing the delays that unfortunately occurred in the Smyth case and identifying the reasons for them and the remedies that needed to be put in place to ensure it never happened again. That was my main concern.

In all our dealings and meetings with the Attorney General the only wish of the Taoiseach and Fianna Fáil Ministers was to have questions fully and comprehensively answered. We wanted the full answers and we wanted to make those answers available to the House. The problem was, why was there a seven month delay in processing the extradition of a priest who had abused children? We all wanted that question answered and we wanted it answered in simple English. There was never a desire or intention on our part to conceal the answer to that question. There could be no motive, no rhyme or reason for our wishing to do so. Child abuse is repugnant and sickening and nobody wanted complete answers to that question any more than we did. No one could suggest that we would, by any action or inaction, try to protect a paedophile.

Because of the various conflicts surrounding the relevance of the Duggan case and the details which were awaiting clarification I did not appreciate at any stage on Monday, 14 November nor at any time before the Taoiseach spoke in the Dáil on Tuesday, 15 November, that a reference to the Duggan case should properly be included in the Taoiseach's statement nor did I have access to or see, the documents which have been referred to as being submitted by the Attorney General, nor the letter which was subsequently prepared and given to the Taoiseach's office immediately before he spoke. The facts now known to all of us in this House make it clear that such a reference, that is a reference to the Duggan case, should have been included in the speech. For that omission and its consequences all of us who were involved in any way have to shoulder some of the responsibility. I do not seek to evade my share but I strongly reject any suggestion that any action, conduct, decision or advice of mine amounted in any way to a deliberate withholding of relevant facts from this House or was intended to achieve this. The fact that I was not present when the Attorney General spoke to Ministers about the matter may have contributed to my failure on 14 November to appreciate the need to include a reference to the Duggan case in the Taoiseach's speech. From what I have heard however from my colleagues who were here, I cannot say that my reaction would have been very different even if I heard directly what the Attorney General had to say.

Listening to the debate this evening a number of things struck me. What the Minister for Defence, Deputy Andrews, said struck me as true: this is not a House in which people should assume false and completely unrealistic moral standards for themselves when in Opposition which they know in their hearts they could not abide by in Government. Listening to Deputy Andrews speaking in terms of gratitude to the Acting Taoiseach, Deputy Reynolds, it occurred to me that there was an honourable man speaking. I know Deputy Andrews spent many years in internal exile within Fianna Fáil and paid a very heavy personal and professional price as a barrister for his integrity and unwillingness to bow down to what I believe were unfair tactics within that party. However, I will not elaborate on that.

I do not know how the Deputy could know that; he was not there and never will be.

I do know; I know the professional price he paid——

I do not like the moralisers who wear curly caps one day and give us lectures here on another.

I am talking about the price Deputy Andrews was forced to pay by senior people in the Minister of State's party for standing up for what he believed in.

I am a member of the same party as the Minister, Deputy Andrews.

I know the price he paid in his professional and family life.

Perhaps the Deputy would address his remarks through the Chair; it might be less provocative.

I am not being provocative.

Please allow the Member in possession to proceed without interruption.

He is praising somebody.

That man's professional life was effectively under attack because of his independence within the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party, and I know the circumstances. If the Minister of State checks with Deputy Andrews he will tell him all about it one day, if he is interested.

In this House this evening one phrase rings in my ears, the phrase which the Attorney General, Mr. Eoghan Fitzsimons, attributes to the outgoing Minister for Justice, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn: "We are not using Duggan". Having listened to the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Smith, and Minister Geoghegan-Quinn in this House I believe they knew the significance of the Duggan case and what they were doing when they decided not to use it — to use their euphemistic phrase. I know that, in that context, they understood clearly that the defence put up on Tuesday, 15 November, for the appointment of Mr. Harry Whelehan was wholly undermined by the existence of the Duggan case and a decision was made, privately, to use it in an attempt to blackmail Mr. Harry Whelehan to resign and, publicly, to pretend it did not exist when the blackmail effort on 14 November failed. That is what happened.

This is what Deputy Harney referred to as the twin track strategy; on the one level they were willing to visit the man in his house to say that three Ministers would blow him out of the water on the following day if he did not resign and, on the other, when their bluff was called, they suppressed the truth in this House. Anybody with eyes and ears knows that is what happened.

On a point of order——

Would the Minister of State keep quiet, he has had his turn?

The facts speak for themselves.

The Deputy has alleged that Ministers went to Mr. Harry Whelehan's house. Let us clear up this matter.

The Minister of State should not be silly or make a fool of himself.

He should read the speeches.

I hear what the Minister of State is saying and with charity I ignore it. The fact is that the Minister for Justice, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Smith and, the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Cowen — had he contributed to this debate he would have acknowledged it — composed the Taioseach's speech on Tuesday, 15 November. Each of them knew precisely the significance of what they were doing and all of them now claim they were confused by the legalities, they were over-awed by the circumstances and had a fleeting glimpse of a complex legal question which none of them entirely grasped. I reject this as an outrageous piece of mendacity and counter it with the suggestion that every one of them knew exactly what they were achieving by the speech they drafted for the Taoiseach in the early hours of the Tuesday morning and what the effects would be on this House.

If the Minister for Justice, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, tendered her resignation because of her part in this matter and if what she said this evening about the Attorney General's version of a conversation with her is true, could it possibly be she did not impart this knowledge to those who sat down with her to draft the Taoiseach's statement in the early hours of Tuesday, 15 November 1994? I do not accept that for one minute.

I am driven to the conclusion, without being moralistic or adopting plaster statue sainthood, that there was clear and unambiguous evidence delivered to this House this evening in a series of speeches — one may excuse people for using the term "conspiracy" but I do not rely on that term — of a concerted plan by people who knew precisely what they were doing to deceive the Labour Pary and this House and it was complemented by a concerted plan to use exactly the same information to put private pressure on Mr. Harry Whelehan to resign his position.

In the time available to me I will only say the following about the appointment and the driving from office of Mr. Harry Whelehan. In my view — I think it is a fair one — there was no basis, in terms of merit or seniority, for that appointment. I have yet to hear a convincing explanation as to why that appointment was so important that it should bring down a Government if it were not made. Putting one thing with another I have arrived at the view that there was a political debt owed which had to be paid at all costs. I do not know and do not profess to know the exact nature of that political debt but we are happy as a country that it was never in fact paid and has unravelled at the seams.

Nobody on the Fianna Fáil benches has explained to this House why it was so important to make that nomination to the Bench and nobody has explained to me at any point in all these controversies why, when the Labour Party objected so vehemently, it had to be proceeded with. I will content myself by making this observation: it was not on the basis of any entitlement on the part of Attorneys General to secure any office which they demanded or precedent and it flew in the face of the speaking note given to successive Taoisigh in relation to the appointment of Attorneys General and, in that respect the excuses offered for that appointment are false.

One does not have to adopt a moral high ground or read a rarefied atmosphere or get up on a high horse to see what we had here today was a collective confession not simply of gross incompetence but also of a cover-up motivated by a desire to conceal that incompetence. The case is proven. The forum of public opinion, the people who have seen the proceedings of this House in the past few weeks and, more particularly today, will have made their own judgment on these matters. The correct judgment is that those who were engaged in what I believe was a collective concerted attempt to deceive the people have paid a just price and must in the future accept that the fate which has befallen them this evening was of their own making.

In this House, for the first time, a political party has urged that a judge be appointed to inquire into their own behaviour. This speaks volumes about the nature of the people involved. They have asked that a tribunal of inquiry into their own behaviour be set in motion rather than answer the questions in this House. If they had answered these truthfully at any given time it would have led to their survival. That is the tragedy of the Fianna Fáil position tonight. If they had once answered truthfully instead of pretending that they are willing to have a judicial inquiry, we would have spared the Irish political system this gross indignity.

Should they be remanded in custody?

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 8 December 1994.

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