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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Jan 1995

Vol. 448 No. 1

Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill, 1995: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

When the debate adjourned last night I was making the point that the appointment of Ministers of State can have positive effects and should not be portrayed in a negative light as it was by some Opposition speakers. I gave the example of Deputy Mary Harney who was a Minister of State from 1989 to 1992. She overcame difficulties in her Department to achieve notable success in her office and, with the experience and reputation she gained as Minister of State she went on, not so long afterwards, to become leader of her party. Another example is Deputy Mary O'Rourke who expected to be a Minister in the last Government but was only appointed a Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment where she achieved notable success both in the Department and at the Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy. As a member of that committee I watched her contribution at close range as she guided the Consumer Credit Bill through. These are just two examples which show why we should not be negative about the appointment of Ministers of State.

Judgement on the appointment of the two Ministers of State should be suspended until they deliver. They have a role they are well equipped to play, and considerable scope for initiating and implementing policy which will make this country a better place in which to live.

Deputy Avril Doyle is a former Minister of State at the Department of Finance who had responsibility for the Office of Public Works and the Department of the Environment in 1986-87. This Bill will make it possible for Deputy Doyle to be appointed a Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, the Department of Finance and the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications with special responsibility for public services. She will also co-chair an interdepartmental committee on the commemoration of the famine. This post is important because the policy agreement, a Government of Renewal, places considerable emphasis on changes in institutions of State to make them more responsive and accountable. A high degree of co-ordinated action in different policy areas will be required to achieve these changes and enable the Government to meet its commitments.

The Government will set an agenda for action on these matters and it will be the responsibility of Deputy Doyle to have this programme carried out. I am confident Deputy Doyle's efforts will make a real difference in the quality of service to the public and restore faith in our public institutions. This concerns every citizen of the State. The appointment is, therefore, valid and justified.

I have known Deputy Donal Carey for many years and have a particular interest in his appointment as a Minister of State. He has been a public representative for 21 years and a Member of the Dáil since 1982. He is widely experienced and I welcome his appointment as Minister of State at the Departments of the Taoiseach and the Gaeltacht with special responsibilities for co-ordinating the Government's commitment to western development and urban renewal. His responsibilities will include co-ordinating support for the implementation of the action plan being prepared by the Western Development Partnership Boards, responsibility for overseeing the implementation of a pilot programme for the development of a more integrated approach to public service in rural areas, and special responsibility for the development and improvement of living conditions on our offshore islands. Deputy Carey will also chair an inter-departmental committee to examine the problems facing island communities and the ways in which these difficulties can be overcome. Offshore islands have been neglected for a long time by various Governments. I am delighted that Fine Gael, in Government, has seen fit to appoint a Minister with responsibility in this area.

Ba mhaith liom freisin comhgháirdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Teachta Carey ar a cheapadh mar Aire Stáit i Roinn na Gaeltachta. Má tá jab le déanamh, níl fear níos fearr ná an Teachta Carey chun a chóta a bhaint de agus an obair a dhéanamh, mar a rinne sé sa toghchán i Maigh Eo Thiar nuair a togh-adh an Teachta Ring. Bhí mé ag obair leis an Teachta Carey ag an am sin agus tá mé cinnte go ndéanfaidh sé jab maith.

I am sure Deputy Carey will be of great help to my overworked colleague, the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Michael D. Higgins. The appointment of a Minister with responsibility for the Gaeltacht, western development and the islands illustrates the Government's commitment to ensuring that all areas benefit from opportunities for growth and employment. The appointment of Deputy Carey at this time is of great significance as this is a vital period for the west. It is a watershed for the region. We are at a point in history where we must start to recover or fade forever. I can assure the House that we in the west have no intention of throwing in the towel. The people of the west are greatly encouraged by the commitment of this, the first Government to appoint a Minister for Western Development and I am delighted this step has been taken.

This appointment also coincides with a major drive and determination within the communities of the west to help themselves by organising community and self help projects. This is exemplified by the Bishop's crusade for the survival of the west which reflects what is happening in every community in the west. Most communities have produced their own action plan, encouraged by the availability of EC funding. What is vital is that the Government is now appointing a Minister with direct responsibility for co-ordinating the efforts of the Bishops and the communities in the west to give them hope for the future.

Other parts of the country have special problems but nowhere else has the population dropped consistently in every country over the past 50 years. With the exception of Galway City the population in Connaught has declined dramatically. Since the census of 1926 Leitrim has lost 30,606 people, a drop of 54 per cent; Mayo has lost 61,977 people, a drop of 36 per cent; Roscommon has lost 31,659 people, a drop of 38 per cent; Sligo has lost 16,632 people, a drop of 23 per cent. A recent survey carried out in 30 schools in Connemara indicates that the school-going population will drop by 25 per cent by 1999. Leenane, that beautiful village where the film, "The Field", was shot, will only have eight school-going children in 1999. Rosmuc, a Gaeltacht area where Padraic Pearse's cottage is and where he learned Irish, will have only eight school pupils by 1999. The number of pupils in Cornamona will drop from the present 86 to 30 by 1999 and the school-going population in Clifden, the capital of Connemara, will drop from 263 to 190 by 1999. Those are the findings of a scientific study of all the schools in Connemara.

I am delighted we will have a ministry with special responsibility for western development and I have every confidence that, on his appointment, Donal Carey, in co-operation with the many voluntary agencies and community initiatives, will carry out this function with commitment and put the west back on the map. In anticipation of this appointment I ask him now to take immediate steps to extend the Eircell national grid to all other areas in Connemara. In Clifden doctors and other business people who provide a service to the offshore islands have great difficulty in doing so because the area is not in the Eircell grid. That should be a priority for the new ministry. I will be glad to liaise and help and make a public commitment to do so in efforts to develop the west.

The Taoiseach in his introductory statement in the Fine Gael document Let's Bring Out the Best in the Country states: “I believe our first aim must be jobs for all our people”. That statement takes on a whole new miniing with the institution of two new ministers of State — we now know what he really meant, jobs for his own people. Further on in that document, he states that we must restore trust in politics.

However, his actions speak louder than words. Trust even among his own supporters is not being restored by his cynical cronyism. He further states:

We must make our system of Government stable and accountable with politicians who can be trusted and we must manage our economy on the basis of fair competition and not for the benefit of the inner circle.

Are the actions of this Taoiseach and the Bill before the House evidence of people who can be trusted? Ask Fine Gael backbenchers, Members who aspire to be Ministers, former Front Bench spokespersons and former Ministers, if an inner circle in that party is being looked after? The new commandments of this Government are openness, transparency and accountability but how soon they were cast aside when self-preservation became the order of the day. Like beauty, the principles of Fine Gael are skin deep, no sooner was Deputy John Bruton ensconced in the Taoiseach's seat than he proceeded to look after his own men. He was not wanting in casting aside the hard working effective performers in the front line of Fine Gael during the past six to seven years such as Deputies Dukes, Shatter, Flanagan, Deasy, Jim Higgins, Jim O'Keeffe and McCormack among others. Why did he do so? Was it because they were not lapdogs? Deputy Michael Noonan survived the cut and I wish him well in his important portfolio. I presume he was brought in to pacify the other elements of the party. I can presume only that the Taoiseach did not want experienced members in Cabinet with him in fear of rocking the boat with his present partners.

Labour, the party of total righteousness and moral rectitude did not and have not officially at ministerial or advisory level made a squeak in the face of this cynical action. Having wrestled with their conscience, no doubt, their conscience lost. As long as they held on to their six ministries and their ministries of State, all was well. However, last evening on the news, that independent chairman of the Labour Party, Deputy Kemmy, fired a shot across the bows of the Labour, Fine Gael and Democratic Left Ministers. What will Deputy Kemmy do? He said he will vote for the Bill. Do honour and principle not mean anything or only what he wants them to mean at any given time? In the final analysis the Labour Party has told the taxpayers clearly that it does not care about the extra cost as long as the Fine Gael Party is kept happy and stays in Government. It will facilitate that Party in sorting out its internal problems as long as it does not cost it any of its positions. What total cynicism.

Members of the Democratic Left Party had a great deal to say on all sorts of matters during the past few years. One came to expect from them only the highest levels of correctness. Were they, fooling us? We have not heard from them since — we have not heard from them on these extra appointments. When push came to shove they insisted on their pound of flesh and as it turned out they got more than a pound. Deputy Rabbitte, a Minister of State, has even got a programme manager, new ground broken by a reforming Minister of State. As yet they have not explained their acquiescence to the comfortable arrangement that put this Government together at the taxpayers' expense. For their part, political cynicism and looping the loop has reached new heights.

In the document A Government of Renewal we were informed that increases for Ministers recommended by the independent review body were not to apply. Was this to save money — a mere £50,000 net? It was not, but to give the impression that this Government cared and was intent on transferring the savings to the needy in our society. What really happened is that this Government has increased the cost of administration to the Exchequer by a plethora of appointments to their offices from outside the Civil Service. Like confetti at a wedding there were appointments of programme managers, advisers and personal assistants as well as two additional Ministers of State with attendant staff. Those actions have been seen for what they are, naked political expediency.

Deputy Carey is an honourable, hard working public representative who has made many excellent contributions on various Bills. He has been placed in an invidious position, which he does not deserve. The Taoiseach was in a bind when he realised he had to agree to the Leas-Cheann Comhairle remaining in office and, without blushing, found the simple solution of creating another ministry of State. The Taoiseach called it Minister of State for the West, but had he forgotten the west before this Ministry was created? Did it suddenly jump up in front of him? Many fine Deputies from the west have been highlighting the problems of that region for years. On every occasion on which he has spoken during the past seven years Deputy Jim Higgins has highlighted those problems. Deputies Connaughton, McGinley and McCormack live in the heart of the west. Why did the Taoiseach not think of appointing some of those Deputies who know the problems facing the west? The answer is quite clear and I do not need to spell it out.

It seems that Wexford is a special county blessed with two Cabinet Ministers and a Minister of State for Pandora's box. Deputy Doyle's portfolio is embracing more and more as time goes on. The Lord above, Deputies Bruton and Doyle are the only ones who could tell us the real reason for the creation of that office.

I wish Deputies Carey and Doyle success in their portfolios and know they will do a good job even in the difficult climate of confusion and twilight they will find themselves in. Having spent 11 months as Minister of State I have come to appreciate the excellence of our civil servants and their dedication to serving the country no matter what political hue rules. The action of the Government in employing unestablished civil servants as programme managers throughout the Civil Service will not, in the long run, be in the best interests of the country. To date between 90 and 100 unestablished civil servants have been appointed and further appointments will be made. I am sure people will be interested to know who has been appointed to these important offices. I shall name the programme managers and special advisers in the different Departments.

The Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht has appointed Caoimlin Ó Drisceoil as his programme manager and Colm Ó Briain as his special adviser. In the Ministry of Equality and Law Reform Mr. Richard Humphreys is special adviser and Miss Anne Kinsella is to be appointed as partnership programme manager in the near future. The Minister for Education has appointed Mr. Pat Keating as partnership programme manager. No special adviser has been appointed yet but I am sure one will be appointed soon. The Minister for Finance has Ciarán O'Mara as programme manager and Brendan Lynch as special adviser. I am sure Deputy Hogan will get a special adviser in due course.

Did the Deputy not notice I had one?

You have a personal adviser. Is that different from a special adviser?

The Deputy should know. He was there.

We worked with civil servants. The Minister for the Environment has Dr. Tim Collins as special adviser and Ms Ann Byrne as programme manager. The Minister for Foreign Affairs said that no new unestablished civil servants had been appointed to his private office since 15 December.

Is the Deputy disappointed about that?

I am sure the Minister has the names on his file. Why did he not tell us who they were?

He is telling the truth.

Where is openness, transparency and accountability? What party did that come from? The Labour Party.

The Deputy might find it hard to believe but it is the truth.

It is not because the Minister said that those who were there previously were reappointed.

The Deputy knows about them.

The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Foresty has appointed Mr. Michael Miley as programme manager and his special adviser is Mr. Thomas Tynan. The Minister for Tourism and Trade has not yet appointed a programme manager. He is contemplating same and no special advisers have been appointed to that Department.

The Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications has appointed David Moynan as special adviser to the Minister of State, Deputy Stagg. I do not see any adviser for the Minister, Deputy Lowry. The Minister for Enterprise and Employment has not yet notified us of the appointment of any special adviser or programme manager but Deputy Rabbitte of Democratic Left has a programme manager, Mr. Noel Ward, and Miss Kathleen O'Meara is special adviser to the other Minister of State, Deputy Eithne Fitzgerald.

The Minister for Defence and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, has appointed Mr. Conor Barry as programme manager and is considering the appointment of a senior adviser for those Departments. Mr. Thomas Hannigan is special adviser to Deputy Currie in the Department of Health and Mr. Richard Green is partnership programme manager. The Minister for Social Welfare has not appointed a programme manager or special adviser but I am sure he will do so in due course.

That is the list of some of the political appointments made by the Government. In the final analysis the cynicism, the loop the loop, twists and turns and broken promises will come home to roost——

The golden circle.

When the people come to cast their vote in the next general election——

You will answer them.

——they will give their answer to this rainbow Government.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate and thank Deputy Ahern for his complimentary remarks. Would that he had the allocation of jobs. I have no doubt I would not be perched up high on the back benches but down on the Front Bench where Deputy Hogan is now. Unfortunately I do not quite accept the degree of political motivation or interest he has in the welfare of Deputies Higgins or O'Keeffe or other members of Fine Gael.

The remarks in relation to political opportunism, nepotism and naked political expediency would sound fine if we did not look at the recent track record of the party which sat on this side a mere four weeks ago. It is worth remembering that in the days when it lost its mandate to govern and was dead, Fianna Fáil did as Fianna Fáil do and appointed people in that short period of time.

For the record, the Minister, Deputy Higgins, appointed 11 people so it is not just on one party's side.

I hold no brief for the Minister. Deputy Cowen made ten appointments to various bodies and agencies under his remit as Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications. The Taoiseach, who had clearly lost his mandate and was heading a discredited Government and a party in disgrace and who described himself as a caretaker Taoiseach, appointed two Senators, clearly jeopardising the incoming Government and deliberately making it extremely difficult for the new Government to enact legislation in the Seanad. The comments from Fianna Fáil sound rather hollow.

Deputy Ahern in his contribution gave his own political perspective and listed the various appointments so far.

The ones we could find.

His briefing document was relatively sparse when it came to Fine Gael appointments, whatever about the other partners in the Coalition. He discovered that Fine Gael is not guilty of splurging or extravagance at cost to the taxpayer. The one thing of which we can be reasonably sure is that, while the whole principle of programme managers and advisers will be adopted by Fine Gael in Government, there will be no splurge, no extravagances and no extravaganza; it will be done within reason and with all due responsibility.

This Bill is contentious but was not needed because we have now entered a new welcome era. The past six weeks marked a watershed, a new development in politics. There has been a transition, a handing over of power, a change of office, without a general election, the use or expansion of the role of Government under the Constitution. That is extremely welcome because it means we are using the democratic process to the full. Also to be welcomed is what happened in the past month, the transfer of power and a new Government coming together, which sends a clear message to any future Government contemplating doing something reckless or ditching a Coalition partner overnight. It will clearly be seen that there is an alternative among the membership of this House, that alternative Governments can be put together and work and I believe this Government will work.

Having said that, it is my belief there was no need for what happened. We came here on the week of 14, 15 and 16 November last for what might be described as a routine week, we were on the countdown to Christmas, there was no general election on the horizon. Suddenly a torpedo was fired into the bowels of the last Coalition Government and, lo and behold, it was gone.

The main Opposition party must appreciate and understand the culture of coalitions because they have not understood them to date. The genesis, the origin of that party suggests that in every era when it was involved in coalition or partnership Governments, for a limited period, it failed to comprehend the basic, underlying principles on which coalitions work. It happened in the 1930s when the Labour Party was seen as a short term prop, when the rug was pulled beneath them and the overall majority was gone. It recurred in the era of the takeover by the former Taoiseach when a reasonably good Fianna Fáil/Progressive Democrats Government was torpedoed almost before the Taoiseach took office when he described it as a temporary little arrangement. It happened on the last occasion when, during the summer, we were treated to megaphone confrontation, with the Tánaiste at one end of the world and the Taoiseach at the other rowing over the presidency of the High Court.

There will be no rug-pulling in this Government, of that I am absolutely certain; because it is my firm belief that it was formed in a spirit of partnership, co-operation and understanding, that there will be consensus, compromise, common sense and that this Government will last. Irrespective of the comments of Deputy Michael Ahern, I am personally delighted for the Taoiseach, Deputy John Bruton because, for once, the breaking ball bounced in his direction. I am delighted he is Taoiseach. It is significant that he comes into office at a juncture when his very qualities, steadfastness, honesty, openness, accountability, ability and experience, were never more required. The electorate are not seeking anything spectacular. I think they are looking for a safe pair of hands, for steady management, for an elimination of own goals, certainly, they do not want any scandals. They can rest assured that under the Taoiseachship of Deputy John Bruton there will be no scandals.

Deputy Bruton assumes the office of Taoiseach at a crucially important time because if ever politics was at a low ebb it is now. All one need do is look at the opinion polls, the voting patterns, the downward spiral, the downward trajectory: in the European elections 42 per cent of the people voted; that means six out of every ten stayed away; in itself that is frightening; when one reaches that level, democracy is under threat. In opinion polls, the likelihood is that every second person asked will say they did not vote in the last election, probably in the previous one and will not vote in the next one. To an extent that explains the contradictions in the two opinion polls published last weekend.

Deputy McDowell described the manufacturing of two additional Ministers of State as "necessity being the mother of invention". That was a bit rich coming from a party that invented itself out of spleen and spite because it could not get on with the party from which it grew and emanated. That was a bit rich coming from a party that decided, not so long after its formation, that it would take God out of the Constituation but discovered that was not very wise politically, so God was restored to the Constitution. That was a bit rich coming from a party that went into office in 1989 with a party it had vilified right up to the three heaves during the early 1980s. That is a bit rich coming from a party that had the option of coming into Government, rendering it a four-party Government, within which they could have been the safe ballast in the ship but chose to indulge themselves in Opposition, to remain out, yet they would have got a very reasonable deal from all the Coalition partners. However, for reasons of so-called ideology, dressed up in all its preciousness, they decided to remain out because they want to indulge themselves in combat, in competition with Fianna Fáil on the Opposition benches, when they will try to wrest those extra seats which will give them further Opposition seats, poised for a return to power after the next general election. That is putting the country first.

I am amused at the contentious objections coming from Fianna Fáil; they would say that, would they not? They have described this as a Cabinet Government. I looked at the list of Cabinet advisers, Michael Doherty and others, to the former Taoiseach, all appointed at the taxpayers' expense, in many cases, to undertake the mundane of mundanities. Again, no concern whatever was expressed then. I looked at the list published in the Sunday Trib-une, on the eve of the collapse of the previous Government, when board after board of semi-State agency after semi-State agency, regional technical colleges, Dublin Institute of Technologys, every college was filled, when the primary criterion was not qualification, not academic achievement, not professional excellence but the cumann membership card. That was the criterion used. The people will judge for themselves.

I welcome these ministerial appointments because they are necessary but if the demand arises — and I mean this in all sincerity — I would not rule out the possibility in future of additional Ministers of State. If one looks at the pattern of commercial and social development here, year in, year out, one will immediately see we are handed out a multiplicity of directives and instructions from the European Union. For example, to date, the Department of Enterprise and Employment has taken on board 1,088 directives from the European Union, the Departments of the Marine, Foreign Affairs and Finance, has each taken on board 1,148 directives from the European Union. One can go through each and every Government Department, when it is obvious that more and more directives come from Brussels which impinge on, interact and interface with the lives of our people here, requiring hands on management by Ministers and Ministers of State.

In particular I welcome the appointment of these two additional Ministers of State. The other day I was reading Robert Keyes's Ireland, A History emanating from the BBC and RTE series. For example, the first Fianna Fáil Cabinet in 1933 comprised of ten Ministers; from that it grew to 15; thereafter there was the introduction of Ministers of State; it is an evolving process, one that will continue to develop in the future, provided there is justification. I believe there is justification for these two appointments.

I look at the population figures, already given by Deputy McCormack. For example, between 1926 and 1991 208,759 people have left. In County Cavan there are now 129 fewer townlands than in 1926; in Donegal there are 170 fewer, Monaghan 90 fewer, Galway 224 fewer, Leitrim 145 fewer, Mayo 175 fewer, Roscommon 148 fewer and Sligo 67 fewer. That amounts to a total of 1,148 townlands gone to the wall — dead empty, desolate, barren. We have a Chernobyl here, a catastrophe unfolding before our eyes. The position requires redress and we have a need for the appointment of a Minister with responsibility for western development. Indeed, I hope in time that post might become a senior ministerial post because I believe the position is drastic enough to require one.

I come from the county of Davitt. He was born 150 years ago into a small farm in Strade in County Mayo. He was pitched out on the side of the road, left homeless without shelter, he went to Manchester and his eternal dream was to come back and rid this country of the scourge of landlordism. He did that in my county in Irishtown by setting up the Land League in 1879. Having regard to Davitt's dream today, I wonder if his work was in vain, particularly in relation to the west of Ireland.

I asked the then Taoiseach in this House a number of months ago to give me details of full-time and part-time farming figures and they make very salutary reading indeed. In 1951 there were 22,246 farmers in Galway and in 1986, almost ten years ago, that figure had fallen to 11,933. In Roscommon in 1951 there were 12,966 farmers and in 1986 there were 5,542. In Sligo in 1951 there were 9,068 farmers and in 1986 there were 3,569, one-third of the number in 1951 remained and two-thirds had left. In Leitrim there were 8,000 farmers in 1951 and in 1986 there were 2,043, three out of every four farmers had left.

In my county of Mayo in 1951 there were 24,528 farmers and in 1986 there were 9,462. In 1951 there were 77,048 farmers in Connacht and 32,943 in 1986, half the farming population have left. A whole way of life, a culture and existence has gone to the wall, been wiped out never to be restored. The frightening thing about that is that the trend is accepted as irreversible. I do not accept that.

It is ironic that the President called a meeting of the Council of State yesterday evening to discuss her presentation to this House and the word is that the emphasis will be on the diaspora, the Irish overseas community, the people of Irish extraction, the people in exile, the real Ireland. If one examines where those people originate from, one will find that some of them instead of being in Belmullet are in Boston and others are scattered throughout the world.

Measures should have been put in place to stem the flow of migration, to create employment and to develop the indigenous and natural resources, about which we have been scolded for their non-development over the years. If the necessary imaginative policies had been put in place over the years by successive Governments, this human catastrophe need not have happened. That is why I welcome the appointment of the Minister of State, Deputy Carey. That is why I look upon it not simply as a token appointment because I can assure the House that Deputies from the west will be looking for action.

We want a programme of action, a timescale, an agenda and, above all, we want results. We want the position monitored. I welcome the opportunity of contributing to the debate and I have no doubt that the ministerial appointments will be vindicated in due course. The appointment of Deputy Carey in particular is a significant, timely and historic one.

I welcome the opportunity to participate in this Debate. I listened carefully to what Deputy Higgins had to say. Coming from the west of Ireland I, like you Chairman, share his views that the west has special needs and I will deal with this issue later in my contribution. I have always respected what Deputy Higgins had to say in this House, but I recall his trenchant and critical remarks following the formation of the previous Labour-Fianna Fáil Government, particularly regarding the number of advisers, programme managers, etc. I ask my friend, Deputy Higgins, to be consistent. In the past he spoke out for the truth. I was sorry that he was not rewarded in some way, but maybe he is better off to distance himself from his current regime which has done tremendous damage to the image of what was to be an open and transparent rainbow coalition. It has made a major blunder in respect of the first legislation it introduced. Members of the public to whom I have spoken cannot understand the need for it.

Fianna Fáil gave us a low base from which to start.

The Deputy has heard the commitments given by our Leader, Deputy Ahern.

We are starting from a very low base.

I wish to tell Deputy Hogan that as soon as we are returned to Government we will revert to the former position of 15 Ministers of State.

The Taoiseach on his accession to the highest office in this land — it was a special moment and I listened with great interest to him — spoke with great conviction, emotion and certainly he sounded sincere. He referred at the time to the meaning of the title Taoiseach. He said: "In Gaelic Ireland, the Taoiseach was one who led by example rather than by exhortation, by character rather than coercion and who exercised such authority as he had, as a service to the people". In creating two new ministerial posts, appointing additional special advisers, programme managers and so on at huge cost to the taxpayer, the Taoiseach has led by example and, without coercion, his fellow members of Government have indeed followed suit.

The Taoiseach's speech was short and the importance of his words carried increased weight given its brevity. The first words of any person attaining high office always take on an added significance for they are generally sober thoughts delivered at an important moment in our history. That sobriety, as we heard last night and today, was short lived.

The Taoiseach in a speech on 15 December especially emphasised one word, "simplicity", which will be the theme for my contribution. The Taoiseach used the word "simplicity" three times in two sentences. He said, "in the same way that [he sought] simplicity in the Office of the Taoiseach [he sought] simplicity in Government and national policy. Good Government [he said] is a public service and it should be kept simple". Now we know that those words meant nothing. They were empty words. This is a very poor start by Deputy Bruton, whom I respect and the Irish people have seen through this charade and hypocrisy.

In his speech he went on to say that, "the Government must go about its work without excess or extravagance and as transparently as if it were working behind a pane of glass". Nobody could but agree with these lofty sentiments and at the time everybody probably did agree with them. Those of us who did can only be astonished at the turnabout of events. Let us remind ourselves of the facts and consider such simplicity at work. The Taoiseach's predecessor found that two Ministers of State were sufficient to help in running his Department, but that is not so for Deputy Bruton. As he said, he likes things simple, so he appoints four Ministers of State to his Department. What about the additional office accommodation and back-up staff that will be needed following those appointments? For example, Deputy Doyle will need offices in three Departments, the Taoiseach's, Finance and Transport, Energy and Communications. As one of my colleagues said last night, it is one of the greatest examples of job creation — jobs for the boys and girls. No doubt the employment figures will reflect that at the end of the month.

The title of my successor in the office of European Affairs brings to mind a passage from John B. Keane's fictional political letters on the appointment of a Minister of State. In that letter the fictional Taoiseach is offering an appointment to a Deputy and states: "What would you say, Mac," said he "to Minister of State for Bogland areas?""I would love it," McFillan answered "although it sounds a bit bare". "All right", the Taoiseach said, "how about Minister for bogland areas with special responsibility for game and wildlife?""Beautiful, absolutely beautiful" was the reply, "the greater the number of words after the name, the better, this will really impress the constituents". I note with some amusement the title given to my successor in the Department of the Taoiseach with responsibility for European affairs. The new post is now titled "Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach with responsibility for European affairs, with special responsibility for the IFSC and local development initiatives and at the Department of Foreign Affairs with special responsibility for European affairs generally and preparation for the Intergovernmental Conference in 1996". That certainly should go down well with the constituents. John B. Keane will be proud of it, perhaps it might lead to the publication of another book from that esteemed author.

They thought they were intelligent in Dublin.

This is simplicity at work.

Keep it simple.

I do not envy the role of the Minister of State, Deputy Mitchell, in putting that title on a letterhead or on his business card, but I wish him luck.

He is a good man.

We have not heard a great deal from that Minister of State and that does not surprise me because he must be still reeling. However, I may be wrong because recently I heard him speak on "Morning Ireland" about the cost of coffins and funerals in Dublin. There is no doubt that is an important issue, but the Minister of State should realise that he should now turn his mind to matters of State, particularly European affairs. In the national interest, we should hear more from Deputy Mitchell——

Everybody will know that Deputy Mitchell was a Minister of State.

Let us have no further interruptions, please.

——not on the cost of coffins and funerals, but on the cost for Ireland of its participation in Europe, politically, socially and economically.

I will outline another example of simplicity at work. The Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs has three junior Ministers. In the last Administration he had only two. At least I can share with my colleagues a degree of satisfaction in the fact that it has taken two Ministers of State to replace me.

They need an extra one for Gay.

I have said enough about Gay.

That is why the Deputy was promoted.

I thought I had a long title in the "Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach with responsibility for European Affairs and Overseas Development", but the Deputy has outdone me.

Deputy Kitt did a good job.

And Deputy Connor also did a good job. I am surprised he is so far back in the benches, ach beidh lá eile.

The Deputy should wait until he hears what I have to say, it will be very impressive.

I will wait patiently. There are even more interesting simplicities to come from the new Government. We now have a major new development — deviation from the norm — in the appointment of a Minister of State to the Government as well as two new junior Ministers. The public should be made aware of what is involved in these appointments. Deputy Rabbitte's special appointment came about because of the arrogance and stubbornness of Deputy Spring, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, and the Labour Party. Deputy Spring was badly treated, we are told, by the Fianna Fáil Party. The evidence from the negotiations with the rainbow partners show clearly that he is the real bully boy of this period in political life. Deputy Spring's philosophy — and no doubt that of his advisers — is very simple, namely, "let us be flexible, transparent; let us have real partnership as long as I get my way".

In any sense of fair play and justice Deputy Rabbitte was entitled to a Cabinet position, but that was not to be as far as the Labour Party was concerned, the party of partnership. It was very happy to move to the left, but would gladly leave Mr. Rabbitte behind. According to commentators, Deputy Spring did extremely well; he was praised extensively in the media for how well he did. He pushed Deputies John Bruton and De Rossa to the wire and got his way.

This brings me to the crux of this debate. These new junior Minister posts were created as a result of the strategy of Deputy Spring and the Labour Party in the negotiations on forming the rainbow coalition. He got the plum jobs — Finance, Foreign Affairs and Environment — and then the patching up operation began. Deputy Bruton and the Fine Gael Party gave in to the bully boy tactics because they were desperate for office; otherwise they were in serious trouble, something which has been accepted by the public and the media. There is no doubt the Fine Gael Party was up against it — a Labour Party with all its arrogance determined to call all the shots and ensure it would dominate the new Government. The result was the creation of the post of the so-called high chair junior Minister at the Cabinet table. The Labour Party was quite clever and indeed careful that it would not be left hanging on waiting for the unfilled positions. Again, the Fine Gael Party was to suffer. The Labour Party's handlers won again and Deputies Doyle and Carey were hung out for public attention, taking the focus off the perpetrators. The pattern of subtle deception has fooled some of the people all the time and all the people some of the time, but the Labour Party's veil of so-called integrity is slipping lower and lower. The public has seen through this charade. This well orches-trated and produced farce will ensure that the Labour Party will fool none of the people none of the time. The public will be waiting for its members when we next go before it to let them know what it thinks of their integrity.

Where are all the voices of conscience, the men and women of principle in the backbenches of the Labour Party? We heard them often enough on the plinth over the last number of years. Where are all the men and women who stand by truth and standards in high places? Where is Deputy Kemmy? We heard some feeble words from him on the nine o'clock news last night, his usual comments "I don't like it, but I'll vote for it". Where were all the Deputy Kemmys in the past week to stand up for the truth on this matter of national interest? I can only presume that those backbench Deputies are afraid to speak out against their leader and the advisers who, again, have won the day.

As far as the Fianna Fáil Party is concerned it is agreed that this is an abuse of power and we will rescind this decision if given an opportunity in the future, and I have no doubt that will happen before very long.

It will not happen for at least a decade.

Much as I respect many Deputies opposite who speak the truth, I have no doubt this matter will be railroaded through the Dáil this evening.

There is no guillotine.

We will revert — and we have given a commitment in this regard — to the previous position in respect of the number of Ministers of State, that is 15.

We agree with the role given to Deputy Carey who will have responsibility for the Western Development Board. That position should have been allocated in the 15 appointments. We heard a great deal from Deputies who spoke on this debate about the needs of the west. Deputy Carey is a very able and deserving person, but the Government should be honest in regard to his appointment. It was signalled publicly that the position of Leas-Cheann Comhairle was earmarked for Deputy Carey. The Taoiseach announced it as a matter of fact. The truth of the matter is that he could not remove Deputy Jacob from that position because the Standing Orders of the House would not allow it. As an afterthought a new position was invented — Minister of State with responsibility for the Western Development Board. Why was this an afterthought? As one who hails from the west, I believe it was a major insult to the people from the west that this job was created as an afterthought to satisfy a political requirement of this new "Government of Renewal".

Seán Donlon, a highly qualified person, will be the new Taoiseach's programme manager and special adviser on Northern Ireland. The Government will have difficulty explaining to the public how it justifies his excessive salary of £80,000, in effect, a double salary. One can imagine the smoke filled rooms with people huddled together to devise a solution which would keep the public from questioning the new appointment. Why not be open and transparent and admit, if it is what they believe, that this man is the right man for the job in the absence of Dr. Martin Mansergh who played such a central role in the development of the peace process? Why not admit the truth? He is from the private sector where he commands a very high salary and is not interested unless the remuneration is sufficient. To pay him and to accept the consequences would be too honest. The Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and their team of advisers thought it better to devise a mechanism of deceit. They are not fooling the public on this issue. Their plan has failed and the people will not be fooled because what has happened in regard to this appointment is clear.

The final dilemma to be resolved was to satisfy the Tánaiste, the Labour Party and the Department of Foreign Affairs that Mr. Donlon would not shift the power and influence in relation to Northern Ireland from Deputy Spring in the Department of Foreign Affairs. The solution was to do another deal and appoint a new secretary within the Department of Foreign Affairs in the hope of keeping Deputy Spring happy. It is a sad day when jobs and the balance of power between the parties in Government are the overriding criteria and motivation in dealing with such a central issue of Government policy, namely, how the Northern Ireland peace process is dealt with by the Government. I have the greatest respect for the official in question in the Department of Foreign Affairs. He is a person of great ability and integrity. It is a disgrace that his name has become embroiled in this political power game.

I come now to Deputy Rabbitte, special Minister of State. Why does the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Rabbitte, have a programme manager? I understood the role of the programme manager was to ensure that the Programme for Government was adhered to and that all planned legislation was dealt with. Why is there a need for a second programme manager at the Department of Enterprise and Employment? The appointment of two more Ministers of State will have follow up consequences; it will mean at least four new private secretaries. Deputy Avril Doyle will be based in three Departments. I can only describe Deputy Doyle as "Wonderwoman" because she will need wings to get around the Department of the Taoiseach, the Department of Finance and the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications. She will not have time to stop anywhere along the way. It is as well that she has responsibility for energy because she will need plenty of it.

The contributions by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Quinn, and Deputy Avril Doyle last night have not helped to enlighten this House or the public as to what is happening here. They have led to more confusion. Like other Ministers of State, Deputy Doyle will be in different Departments and different buildings and new offices will be required. She will have no real power and there will be chaos and confusion.

Let us remind ourselves of the wise words of the Taoiseach on his election, about the need for simplicity in Government, national policy and in the Office of the Taoiseach. He said that good Government is a public service and it should be kept simple. The word "simple" has many meanings, one of which is "of little value" or "weak in mind". In that sense, we can truly say his Government is simple. We are only a wet, dank and miserable week into the first parliamentary session and this is the first legislation it has introduced. This does not augur well for the future. The public is not fooled by this legislation introduced by the Government of renewal. If this is the best it can do, I await with interest its other good ideas.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Andrew Boylan.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I am delighted to contribute to this debate on the appointment of two new Ministers of State. I have no difficulty in agreeing to the appointment of these two Ministers of State because they will carry out jobs in need of urgent action.

Because I come from the west I shall deal specifically with the appointment of the Minister of State with responsibility for western development and rural renewal. I will put in context the need for such a Minister of State and the need for radical and urgent action in the west. People do not realise the extent to which the west is out of kilter with the rest of the country. In 1990 when the national plan for 1989-93 was published a good socio-economic analysis of the various subregions was carried out. Regrettably, because much of it was embarrassing to the then Government, there was no such socio-economic analysis of the subregions for the 1994-99 national plan. I suspect it was not done because it would have proved a further embarrassment to the Government. As bad as the position was in 1989-93 it would have appeared much worse in 1994. It would have been shown that the west had gone into an even greater decline since the national plan of 1989-93.

I wish to draw the attention of the House to the bishops' commission which worked for over two years and carried out an analysis of the problems of the west. That commission drew its conclusions from extensive consultations with various interest groups and individuals who operate in the west. I also participated in a number of such consultations. The commission produced a very interesting report, A Crusade for Survival, which was launched in Castlebar, and had two main conclusions: it recommends the setting up of a western development board and also that the Government appoint a Minister who would co-ordinate the work of such a western development board. The report states:

Finally, we recommend that a member of the Government should be given special responsibility for development of the West of Ireland in accordance with the priorities recommended in this report. We envisage that the proposed western development board would be responsible to the designated Minister.

I congratulate the Government on making this appointment and making the Western Development Board responsible to this Minister.

We must profile the west. Recently, much has been said of the population decline in western counties, the worst decline occurring between 1986-91. Many people say that the population in the west was always in decline, but that is not so. It declined between 1900 and 1961 but it stabilised thereafter. The populations of Counties Galway, Mayo, Roscommon, Sligo, with perhaps the exception of Leitrim, stabilised between 1961 and 1987. The 1991 Census frightened people as it showed that in five years County Roscommon had lost 5.4 per cent of its population; incidentally, there was no population decline in the years 1981-86, in fact there was a marginal increase. The same is true of County Mayo. In the years 1986-91, the population of Counties Mayo and Leitrim declined by 4.3 per cent and a staggering 6.1 per cent, respectively. These figures frightened most people.

Emigration and population is being revisited on the region again on a large scale. One would have to look back to the 1930s to find comparable figures. I do not accept the argument made by many people that there always has been decline in the west. Economic policies introduced in the late 1950s and operated throughout the 1960s and 1970s at least stabilised matters. We did not have sufficient growth in population during that period, but nevertheless the population remained stable.

It is against that background that the bishops published their report last February. The then Taoiseach, responded by announcing in Castlebar that the Western Development Board, referred to in this report, would be set up. However what the Taoiseach did not say at the time — this was remiss of him — was that a member of the Government would be given specific responsibilities for the co-ordination of that work. In that context I welcome most warmly the appointment of Deputy Donal Carey. Deputy Carey is from a west of Ireland constituency although the county he lives in is in the province of Munster. He lives in County Clare which has all the characteristics and problems that bedevil counties Mayo, Sligo and Roscommon and other western seaboard counties. He is more aware than most people in this House of the problems he must tackle. Deputy Carey is particularly well suited and qualified, from his experience on the ground, to do the job and I welcome him.

I will give Deputy Carey a little advice — I know he will take it. He should take a broad objective look at all the existing State agencies that serve the west to see if they can deliver a better service. While much funding has been made available for the west, at least on paper, in recent years, much of it has not been well focused and has not given the desired results.

I welcome the new industrial policy published this week by the Minister, Deputy Richard Bruton. Nine State agencies will be involved in the operation and co-ordination of that policy which, I hope, will produce 100,000 new jobs within the next five years. A close look should be taken at the way these State agencies will create jobs in the west. I call for a tighter focus in this regard. State personnel working in these agencies should be given a specific objective or target for the creation of, say, 10,000 jobs in their region and at the end of five years they should have to show the economic impact in the community, county or part of the subregion. That is very important.

The new Minister of State must also ensure that the west retains its Objective 1 status for European Union funding. As a result of economic development in some areas by the year 1999 or sooner many parts of Ireland will no longer be considered Objective 1 regions. The Dublin area will certainly lose its Objective 1 status, as will many other regions. It is very important that the whole country does not lose its Objective 1 status. There are only 25 people per square kilometre in the western region, the national average is 51 people per square kilometre while the average throughout the rest of the Community is 150 people per square kilometre. That is why, above all other regions, we must retain our Objective 1 status well into the first half of the 21st century.

Rural renewal tax incentive schemes should be introduced for the west for instance to encourage our many exiles to invest here. People in the United States, the United Kingdom and other places would like to invest their money at home but we provide no incentive for that. That ought to be considered because an enormous amount of money could be put into the region from this source, and we must create the climate by which it can come in.

There should be proper incentives for the service industry. We tend to depend on the manufacturing industry for job creation, but the service industry is a much greater creator of jobs. We must ensure that as part of a new development policy for the west the services industry, particularly the area of telematics and modern technology, is considered. These are a few words of advice to the incoming Minister. I would draw the attention of the House to the need for a greater level of investment in the western region.

I hope the new Minister of State, on the setting up of his Department, will receive adequate funding to carry out his work. Imagination and new approaches are needed, but these will be of little use unless adequate resources are made available.

I have tried to give some profile of the problems in the west which has a population structure that is much older than in the rest of the country. It has only half the national density of population and is twice as dependent on agriculture as the rest of the country. The average income is about 80 per cent of the national average and about 45 per cent of the Community average. Many groups such as small farmers receive much less than 80 per cent of the national average income.

I support the appointment of the two Ministers of State, both of whom will have very important tasks to perform. Before I go into detail on the role they will play I would first point out that the Fianna Fáil Party did not intend to oppose these appointments but because a smaller party in Opposition, the Progressive Democrats, opposed them, the once great Fianna Fáil Party decided it would not be upstaged. The great malaise of this once great party is its inability to make a decision and stick by it. That is the weakness that resulted in it sitting on the Opposition benches, that led to its fall from Government. As a result of this weakness we saw former Government Ministers of the Fianna Fáil Party on bended knees pleading with their tutor for their Christmas report, that he was to write up, all except one, as being grossly incompetent. That is what we were told at the committee of inquiry. When eventually he agreed, they thanked him profusely. The public who listened to the report of that committee were shocked at the way our country was being run.

We see this weakness again in contributions from Fianna Fáil Deputies who talk about bullying by their partners in Government. A partner in Government which expresses its view is not engaged in bullying, it is showing strength. Partners must be able to discuss their views and come to a compromise. A party cannot run away and say it is being bullied.

Yesterday it was amazing to hear Deputy Michael McDowell sing the same song as Deputy McCreevy. Of course, this is hardly surprising as their parties were originally one. Deputy Cullen saw the light before his colleagues and joined Fianna Fáil. I have no doubt that the remainder of the Progressive Democrats Deputies will join Fianna Fáil. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

I wish to refer to the appointment of Deputies Avril Doyle and Donal Carey as Ministers of State. Deputy Doyle is an extremely competent Deputy and even though she has a wide brief I have no doubt she will clear the dust from the desks in her Departments and that in many cases sparks will fly. Many people will say this is not before time.

It is proposed to appoint Deputy Donal Carey as Minister of State with responsibility for western development and rural renewal, two areas which have been neglected by previous Governments during the past seven years. Thousands of families in rural Ireland have been grossly neglected by previous Governments. Their incomes fell below the poverty threshold, yet they received no support. These people pleaded on their knees to be allowed to raise their families and to be given an opportunity to earn a livelihood in their areas but all their pleas went unheeded by previous Governments: even the plan put forward by the Bishops went unheeded. Hundreds of people here had to leave rural areas because no one would listen to their pleas or put in place worthwhile proposals which would give them the livelihood to which they felt they were entitled.

When we refer to the west people think we are referring to counties Mayo, Galway etc. They seem to forget that there are 12 western counties, including my county, Cavan, and Monaghan. I know from personal experience that rural Ireland has been ignored——

The Deputy's party is in charge now.

——and that roads in rural areas have been totally neglected. When I was an Opposition Deputy all my calls for assistance for these areas went unheeded. Now that my party is in Government I expect that problem to be dealt with. Before the change of Government people expected to wait 20 years before the roads in their areas would be improved.

It is unfortunate that I do not have more time to deal with this very important issue. It is not acceptable that the people in rural areas should have expected to wait 20 years for these improvements when successive Governments since 1987 ensured that large urban areas were given proper services. This is not democracy in operation.

Children in rural areas have to wear wellingtons when walking to the school bus — the buses cannot traverse the roads — and many doctors are refusing to make house calls because they are afraid their cars will not make the journey. Many households do not even have a water supply while other families have had to leave the land because adequate grants were not paid under the headage scheme. Successive Governments neglected rural areas because they knew that their votes were in the large urban areas. People in rural areas are extremely important to this country, which was built and serviced by people from small farms in rural areas. That neglect will be corrected by this Government.

Deputy Carey represents a Munster constituency but I have no doubt that he has ample knowledge and stamina to harness all the goodwill which exists and to bring about rural renewal for people who believed they had been forgotten. He will be a shining light for these people and give them hope for the future.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Ned O'Keeffe.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

The lovely titles being given to the proposed two new Ministers of State conceal the real reasons for these appointments. I have no objection to the individuals involved. I know both Deputies, have great regard for them and recognise the contributions made by them in this House and by Deputy Doyle in the Seanad. However, it is obvious that if the attempt to appoint Deputy Carey as Leas-Cheann Comhairle had succeeded there would be no proposal to appoint a Minister of State with responsibility for Western Development and Rural Renewal. It is extraordinary that the failure to remove Deputy Joe Jacob from the position of Leas-Cheann Comhairle — a position which he has held with great distinction — has led to a political exercise which at the end of the day is primarily aimed at paying a dividend to two people who were clearly unhappy and aggrieved by the treatment meted out to them by the Leader of their party, the Taoiseach, Deputy John Bruton.

I have no objection to the appointment of Deputy Carey as Minister of State with responsibility for Western Development and Rural Renewal but the reasons for his appointment do not give me any great hope about commitments, real or imaginary, by the main party in Government. Previous Coalition Governments led by Fine Gael treated the west in a disgraceful manner. The first evidence of this was reflected in the number of people from the west appointed to Cabinet positions. The Cabinet is where the real power lies and where decisions on finance are made. Compared to Fianna Fáil's commitment in Government to the west and the number of Fianna Fáil Ministers from the west and midlands, there was clearly no commitment among previous Coalition Governments, of which Fine Gael was a member, to the west.

It is important to emphasise some of the difficulties endured by people in the west. As many speakers said, in recent years we witnessed a serious decline in social and economic activities and in its population. In the Longford-Roscommon constituency, another business is on the brink of collapse. The Shannonside milk powder plant is about to go to the wall for the simple reason that one of its major shareholders, Midwest Co-operative, which has a 27 per cent shareholding in the company, has decided to pull the rug from under its own company and for purely commercial purposes, ignoring any social requirements for the west of Ireland, sell its milk into Nenagh.

It is interesting that many of the people central to the development of the west of Ireland are silent at this time. I have called publicly on the President of the IFA, who comes from the west of Ireland, to make a clear and definite commitment in this regard. He has a special role in that it is farmers who are engaged in the co-operative movement to a large degree and, more particularly in this case, milk producers. It is necessary for him to ensure that Midwest is encouraged to send its milk back into Shannonside, thereby saving the 70 or 80 jobs that are now threatened. That would undoubtedly have a favourable economic impact upon the wider community, including farmers.

I am conscious, of course, that the President of the IFA, Mr. Donnelly, is a director of Nenagh Co-operative which has now entered into an arrangement to accept milk supplies from Midwest. I am also conscious of the fact that the manager of Midwest is involved in the Western Enterprise Board. These people are engaging in rhetoric while, at the same time, working in the opposite direction because of the nature of the positions they hold and the necessary confrontational situations that arise while serving two masters.

People in this situation should declare where their loyalties lie. This House debated an ethics Bill during the last Dáil session. Clearly, if a politican was involved in some of the activities now being promoted, which are contrary to the best interests of the people of the west of Ireland, there would be an outcry. The same obligation should be placed on people who hold high public office in an unelected area but whose power of influence is such that they can cause differences to arise which create serious hardship and economic decline.

People holding high office should set aside their personal commercial interests and their desire for profit as a matter of urgency and recognise the social consequences of their actions. It is unfair if people in employment are being asked to accept what is almost below a reasonable wage for the purposes of maintaining jobs. It is also contrary to what I would describe as the use of a resource called labour which is about human beings whose expectations should be one of a decent wage.

Over the years school transport has been threatened because the numbers required to comply with the regulations governing school transport cannot be met due to depopulation. School transport services may have to be terminated if pupil numbers fall below the requirement.

Reviews are undertaken from time to time to justify the retention of two teacher schools. This instils fear in local communities who wish to see the retention of their two and three teacher schools. There will have to be a change in the pupil numbers requirement in these schools to protect the jobs of the teachers. The arrangement entered into between the unions and management must be reviewed for the simple reason that the population is declining and that impacts seriously on the numbers of teachers in schools with the subsequent damage to the quality of education.

Post offices have been closed also. I hope the Chief Executive of An Post will never again announce the reopening of a post office on a high profile radio show. Deputies from the west of Ireland requested the Chief Executive of An Post to retain the post office at Carracastle. Those requests were refused until the Chief Executive appeared on a high profile morning radio show and announced that the post office was being kept open. There should be no personal opportunities or wish for gain on the part of chief executives of semi-State bodies. They must do what is right, recognising the social and economic requirements that must be taken account of in any decisions they make.

The Shannon designation programme, which I recommended to the former Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment, Deputy O'Rourke, was taken on board by her. A number of meetings have taken place and the intention is to ensure that the river Shannon is classified as an area of great resource from a tourism point of view and to ensure, by offering the right incentives, that people invest in it. I hope that will not be forgotten by this Government and by the new Minister for the west if he is appointed. I hope the new Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry will take a personal interest in the problems of Shannonside.

There are many more comments I would like to make in regard to forestry, roads and the planning laws that are being implemented by people who have very little understanding of the importance of living in the countryside and retaining and developing rural life. The attitude of Fine Gael to Shannon Airport and the urbanisation of people by forcing them into towns are matters which must be taken into account.

I am glad to have the opportunity of contributing to this debate. I congratulate the Taoiseach and the new Government on being selected to govern the country for two and a half years, all going well. I am disappointed that we do not have a Minister or a Minister of State in rural County Cork. The Taoiseach has concentrated on urban areas and massive population centres and forgotten rural County Cork in his ministerial appointments. That is of great concern to the people of Cork.

I would not be consistent if I did not oppose these appointments and the procedures being adopted by the Government. At the time of the appointment of Deputy Reynolds's Government I made a similar statement. I do not oppose the Members appointed, Deputies Carey and Doyle. I wish them every success and we on this side of the House will co-operate with them.

The appointment of two additional junior Ministers and programme managers and the setting up of more Dáil committees by the Taoiseach is nothing short of naked hypocrisy given the true record of Fine Gael in Opposition on those issues. On many occasions when he was in Opposition the Taoiseach was quite critical of us when we were in Government. These appointments have nothing to do with good Government. In a country of fewer than three million people the appointment of 15 senior Ministers, 17 junior Ministers, numberous programme managers and advisers and committee members is an abuse of power and will lead to a corruption in Government. It is "jobs for the boys" the purpose of which is to keep everyone quiet at their firesides. Practically two-thirds of the new Administration is in some type of job from chairman of a committee to convenor — what I call stamp-licking — whose function is to call meetings. Everybody gets a shilling to keep the Government in position and not rock the boat. There will be no Government backbenchers who will criticise the Government for fear of losing their little jobs. It is about "little jobeens". This is what government in this country has come to and it is of grave concern to me and the honest, decent people we are sent here to represent.

This is an attempt by Fine Gael to appease all its Deputies and supporters in the wake of the disastrous rainbow Coalition negotiated by Fine Gael. It gave away all the key Ministers. It is ironic that even some of the junior Ministers in Democratic Left and Labour have bigger budgets and more important portfolios than many of the so-called senior Fine Gael Ministers.

The Labour Party introduced the multitude of advisers and programme managers to provide jobs for their friends after the last general election at the taxpayers' expense. Now Fine Gael and Labour have followed suit. The new Ministers and programme managers will require offices, in some cases, more than one office, in different Departments. According to an article in last Sunday's Sunday Business Post, the Taoiseach. Deputy John Bruton has facilities at the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Justice besides his other accommodation at St. Stephen's Green; Deputy Gay Mitchell has two offices, one at the Department of Foreign Affairs and the other at the Department of the Taoiseach; Deputy Austin Currie has offices in three Departments, Health, Education and Justice; Deputy Avril Doyle will have offices in three Departments — the Taoiseach, Finance, Transport, Energy and Communications; Deputy Donal Carey, whom I wish well, will require offices at the Departments of the Taoiseach and Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht; the standard position applies to Deputy Seán Barrett; Deputy Bernard Allen will have offices at the Departments of Education and the Environment as well as an office here. The whole thing is questionable. If the Departments are as busy as we are told they are, how can a Minister do business and keep an eye on his brief in four offices at four different Government Departments?

In the past, £5 million was wasted on Government jobs. I understand that will double. It seems to be thought in this House and in parts of the country that this House should be as busy as the House of Commons, the governing body in the UK. The House of Commons has approximately 600 representatives representing 57 million people. If we are to be cost effective, do our job properly and give value for money to the hardridden taxpayer, we cannot identify with the House of Commons.

The question of Government transport has been contentious and should be looked at. I believe in the introduction of two litre State cars for Ministers of State. We have heard stories about abuses involving private drivers who, in some cases, are brothers or sisters of Ministers.

I would like to hear the Government's proposal for a third banking force. Is the ideology of the left wing parties influencing the right wing of the Government? There is no room here for a third banking force because, rather than improving competition, it would result in a more inefficient banking service. This is proposed not on the basis of economics but to satisfy the ideologies of the other parties. We are all aware that the market dictates interests rates and there are plenty of people who can examine the matter if the margin of profit is too high and banking becomes costly for the customer.

We have heard much about county roads. Now that we have a budgetary surplus the Government has a once off opportunity to make a contribution towards county and secondary roads which are in a deplorable state of repair. When we were in Government we were reminded day after day about the roads. I sympathise with Deputy Durkan in having to reply to this debate. However, I know where his heart is and that he will use his influence to see that there is an additional allocation for county roads. As many county councils have not yet been made aware of their funding for 1995 the Minister still has the opportunity to make that extra money available for roads. A good road structure will mean lower costs for business and make rural areas more attractive for the development of industry.

I am sorry Deputy O'Keeffe did not stay because I was looking forward to some good-humoured banter.

I will convey the Minister's sentiments to him.

I am sure Deputy Byrne will be well able to take Deputy O'Keeffe's place in any game whether hurling, football or banter.

The Opposition seem to have forgotten that the two Ministerial posts in question are being created for a specific purpose.

Consolation prizes.

My opposite number, Deputy Charlie McCreevy, asked yesterday why these positions were not seen as important three weeks ago when the initial announcements were made. Why did they, when in Government, not see the importance of creating these posts? At this stage they must be asking themselves that. The Government may have thought of these vital issues late, but it thought of them, and no one would suggest there is no need for a Minister for rural development and resettlement. The sentiments expressed by the last speaker underline such a need.

I know the Member opposite will not take it personally because it is not meant personally, but nothing amazes me so much as the transformation of Fianna Fáil when it moves from one side of the House to the other. What was acceptable a month ago is unacceptable now. This phenomenon is not new. I have noticed it since I came into this House 13 or 14 years ago. When it is sitting here it has no difficulty in accepting anything put forward and Members will nonchalantly waltz through the division lobbies and defend everything with their lives. However, when they move to the Opposition benches they suddenly develop consciences and start to raise questions on openness in Government, as they did yesterday. I was surprised to hear my good friend, Deputy McCreevy, say that it was not so much a place at the trough as the identity of the diners. It reminded me of a herd of buffalo who had been stampeded from their usual watering place and had withdrawn to a nearby hillside from where they mounted an offensive against those who had taken over their position.

It is very amusing and I know, a Chathaoirleach, you must find it amusing that that great party, the Fianna Fáil Party, has a much more sensitive conscience in Opposition than in Government.

The Minister is not speaking with conviction.

I always attempt to speak with conviction and as far as possible I always try to carry out my intentions.

Fair dues for trying, the Deputy is doing his best.

Deputy O'Keeffe raised very good points and the case he made underlines the need for the creation of the ministries that the Opposition are wrongly criticising. Anyone who knows rural Ireland knows well that the population has been sharply dwindling in a line west of Athlone, and even to the east of the Shannon the population in rural areas is declining. There is a number of contributory factors as mentioned by Members. A watchful eye has to be kept on two teacher schools, the rural post offices and Garda stations. There is a general feeling that people should not live in rural areas, that instead they should be places to where urban dwellers or people from elsewhere could spend holidays. That is very romantic but I do not think we can afford such luxury in this small country. We have had the tradition of a rural population for as long as history and I honestly believe there is no case to be made for denuding the countryside of its population.

The creation of a ministry to address that problem is long overdue and I reject the criticism levelled at this Government for doing so. I also reject the suggestion that it was an afterthought, at least the Government thought of it. At the first attempt to address a problem, one has to sit down and think. Furthermore, Jim Connolly of Rural Resettlement Ireland stated at a recent conference that he had targeted the issue of the Government appointing a Minister for Rural Development. He rightly did so, equally correctly he recognised the legitimacy and urgent need of doing so as we do. I am sure the Opposition will do so in due course, the same applies to the appointment of Deputy Doyle. Both Deputies have given excellent service and have tremendous experience and I think they will justify the trust placed in them. I think in time the House will look back at those appointments and say they were appropriate for the time. We need one representative for each province to ensure the development of rural areas, I have held that view for a long time. It will be beneficial in future to have a Minister or Minister of State located in each province with responsibility for a network that goes directly to the European Union for funding. There is nothing wrong with that as I think our job is to ensure the improvement of the quality of life.

I was concerned at the Opposition's criticism of the formation of committees. I found it very difficult to keep a straight face because it appeared that Fianna Fáil would not participate in the committees or would not be available to act as chairpersons or convenors. I am not sure if that is true but that is the impression I got from their criticisms. It appears that they went slightly over-board and threw out the baby with the bath water, admittedly, however, they did not suggest that they would not be available to act as convenors or chairpersons in the event of being asked. It would be a break with tradition if they were not and I hope that their criticism of the committee system does not mean that it will be left to the Government to fill all the positions. However, I am sure we will be further enlightened on that.

The comments of my colleague on the Committee of Public Accounts, Deputy Sean Doherty, were equally valid and entertaining as always. He referred to the Fine Gael Party's attitude to Shannon Airport but it was surely delivered tongue in cheek because when that great party was in Government I recall they took a decision which was not to the eternal benefit of Shannon and I do not know why the matter should have been brought up now. One can only assume it was done with tongue in cheek. The committees will improve the efficiency of the House and will be of vital importance in dealing with regional issues, such as Shannon, which will arise in the future. Such issues could be aired in a committee rather than have the Government bring in proposals or spend time kite flying, as has been the practice in the past and have the Opposition adopt various stances in order to determine in advance what the Government was likely to do. We can all benefit from an expanded committee system.

I congratulate the Members of the Front Bench opposite who were appointed in recent weeks and wish them well. In the heat of the moment in the political arena we often lose sight of the target but in the democratic system it is important to recognise the role played by the Opposition and the Government. Our intentions are honourable but we will be forthright and hard hitting when necessary. We are not in the business of whingeing and I know that will not be the response of the Opposition either. The appointments which are the subject of this discussion will be seen as both necessary and worthy. As time goes on they will become a focus in their own right for people's recognition.

I hope the Opposition will recognise that political capital is not readily gained from every issue. In the democratic system we tend to take full advantage of every opportunity but I suggest that the opportunity is not as great as it seems on this issue. That will be borne out as time goes on.

When the House approves the appointment of the two Ministers of State they will attend to their duties which undoubtedly they are capable of doing.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Browne. I congratulate the Minister of State and members of the Government and sympathise with those who did not make it on this occasion despite the valiant efforts of Deputy Bruton to accommodate almost everyone. I assure the Minister of State that my role and that of Fianna Fáil is to support any measures that deserve support but as I indicated, my colleagues in Wexford who are in Government will probably all hold office assuming this Bill is rammed through. I will support anything that is good for my constituency and country but I will keep a close eye on performance and activities.

Many are called but few are chosen was the traditional advice given to aspiring politicians. Deputy John Bruton has chosen everyone who bothered to call him. The Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill is as unnecessary as it is unwanted. The existing quota of 15 Ministers of State has been adequate if not generous. In 1980 when the number of Ministers of State was increased from ten to 15, Fine Gael and Labour opposed the move. It is ironic that as reported in Volume 318 of the Official Report Deputy Peter Barry said: "I do not believe any Member would pretend that there was any other reason for the appointment of the extra five Ministers of State than the fact that there are political debts to be paid off". I am sure he would say the same today and that the Minister of State believes that. He put up a stout defence. That he finished speaking before his time expired clearly indicates that he lacked conviction but he deserves congratulations for a valiant effort.

The reasons so forcibly given by Deputy Barry, Fine Gael and Labour for not increasing the number of Ministers of State are an unanswerable argument against this Bill. Whatever the political reality 15 years ago it is a certainty now that the Taoiseach is squandering public money to pay for political favours. Cronyism, Tammany Hall politics, cheap strokes and other catcalls have been the mainstay of the Government's political lexicon over the past 15 years. How power corrupts and how quickly.

The origins of this Bill go back to the formation of the Government. Deputy Harney, who for a time was engaged in the negotiations, referred to the matter on the morning the Government was formed. Neither major party in Government was prepared to give Democratic Left a fair crack of the whip. The clear expectation was that when either Democratic Left or the Progressive Democrats Party was chosen by Fine Gael and Labour as the third coalition party, room would be made at the table for them. In the case of the Progressive Democrats the onus would be on Fine Gael and if Democratic Left was chosen the onus would be on the Labour Party. Democratic Left was chosen and two seats at Cabinet was the irreducible minimum demand for its participation in Government. That was made clear from the beginning of the negotiations. Neither Democratic Left or Fine Gael had counted on the greed and selfishness of the Labour Party.

The Labour Party caused the collapse of one Government and twice pulled out of negotiations to form another Government with Fianna Fáil. At the eleventh hour the intransigence of Deputy Spring and his party threatened to abort the rainbow Coalition. The sticking point was not partnership or policy but place. The Labour Party's insatiable appetite for ministerial office would have to be satisfied, or else. Deputy Spring was prepared to cause a general election rather than yield one of his party's six seats at Cabinet. Proinsias De Rossa could come in on his own or not at all. The attitude of the Labour Party was: what we have, we will hold. It appears that partnership government was no more than a flag of convenience for the Labour Party; significantly, when dealing with a smaller party, it was no longer convenient. Because the spot-light had been placed on the issue, on the morning of the formation of this Government, a compromise was forced, a shambolic compromise — what it gained in ingenuity it lost in integrity. The invention of a half Cabinet seat for Deputy Pat Rabbitte made a laugh of the man and the job; some would say: "the price of silence".

With the benefit of hindsight I believe the negotiations to form this rainbow Coalition will be seen, not as the end of the beginning but as the beginning of the end. Indeed it was the unwillingness to yield a second Cabinet seat to Democratic Left that this Bill had to be introduced here — creating additional Ministers of State is the trickle-down effect of how this Government was formed. The Taoiseach had to make up to Democratic Left, allocating them three Ministers of State in addition to one and a half Cabinet seats. The bottom line for the Taoiseach was rewarding his own faithful within Fine Gael, those Deputies who had held faith with their Leader during those dark days had to be rewarded. Considerations of good Government and the public purse would not stand in the way. It is interesting to note that four of the six Democratic Left Members have places in Government. How many disappointed Fine Gael backbenchers are there, particularly when they consider that Democratic Left have fared much better?

I clearly remember the formation of the last Fine Gael-led Coalition in November 1982 on which occasion Deputy John Bruton and his Fine Gael colleagues also refused to face down Deputy Dick Spring. The predominant issue at that time was public spending, Fine Gael having been committed to eliminating the budget deficit within four years. Labour said "no" and Fine Gael backed down. That was the beginning of the end of that Government; it never recovered credibility, never really tackled the problems that had blighted this country in the 1980s when the national debt doubled. In the 12 intervening years it appears that Deputy John Bruton has learned nothing and forgotten nothing.

Deputy John Browne is listening to the Deputy; he had better be good.

I sincerely hope so.

He is keeping a watchful eye on Deputy Hugh Byrne's back.

History has repeated itself; the Taoiseach has put himself before his party and his party before his country. He will rue the day he made this pact. In political terms he has sold his soul to the devil.

The loss, in terms of good government and public morale, with Ministers of State equipped with multiple offices and staffs, in up to three Departments, two full-time drivers and a special adviser, would fund a great many community projects; money spent in almost any other way would be more usefully deployed.

How much time, Sir, remains to me?

The Deputy is due to conclude at 1.15 p.m. but we have an agreement that Deputy Byrne will be sharing his time with Deputy Browne.

With the indulgence of the House, I propose sharing instead with Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

We will gladly agree.

In reply to a written question I had tabled to the Taoiseach yesterday, No. 57, the Taoiseach refused to stand over a commitment to fund a pivotal project in New Ross. During the term of office of the previous Administration an absolute commitment was made to allocate funding of £250,000 to the John F. Kennedy Trust. New Ross, County Wexford but the present Taoiseach, Deputy John Bruton, has welshed on that. He will say only that the trust application will be considered if funding is available. Anyone with any experience in this House knows precisely what that means; the people of New Ross will know also. Ministers Howlin, Yates and Doyle, will have to engage in a lot of damage limitation very quickly. The people of Wexford are wondering already what their platoon of Ministers is doing for them; it would appear their main occupation is tripping over each other. The contrast with the preceding three years could not be greater when, during this time in the Departments of Agriculture, Food and Forestry and the Environment, Deputy John Browne was a model of service to County Wexford. He is already sorely missed.

When Deputy Byrne read his script he knew Deputy Browne was coming in behind him; this is Deputy Browne's script.

On a personal note, I regret that Deputy Avril Doyle is at the centre of this row. She has been badly served by her party Leader. Anyone who has worked with Deputy Doyle during her 20 years in politics will testify to her ability and integrity. She deserved more than an afterthought and consolation prize from the Taoiseach, Deputy John Bruton.

Chauvinism.

In Wexford we have more Ministers, per head of population than any other county nationwide——

Great credit to the Taoiseach.

——while, at the same time, funding for our country's most important project apparently is disappearing. There will be much accounting to be done on the streets of New Ross where bewilderment is turning to anger.

Not for the first time.

Cuireann sé áthas orm labhairt ar an ábhar seo mar is dóigh liomsa go bhfuil ciall nua tugtha do sheanráiteas anois ag an rud atá beartaithe ag an Rialtas.

The present Bill gives a new meaning to the saying: "we have one for everybody in the audience" because we appear to be rapidly reaching the point at which there will be some position for everybody sitting on the Government benches. At present there is before us a proposal for the appointment of two additional Ministers of State. Presumably, there will also be proposals for the appointment of additional chairmen of committees and so on. One party in Government has two-thirds of its membership officeholders, totally unprecedented. It would be fair to say that were it not for the constitutional provision we would also have additional full Ministers.

When the present Government was in Opposition they were very strong on integrity in Government, on openness and accountability, very strong on the need for reform of the Oireachtas to ensure that it rendered the people a better service. They were very fussy about State expenditure and travel irrespective of how good and/or rewarding they may have been. Now it appears there is no problem in spending money on the creation of additional jobs to overcome political difficulty. In this context it is fair to say also that we are not merely facing additional wages or salaries for the people involved but are also facing the inherent huge staff costs in the provision of additional advisers and so on.

As I have already said, it is a good thing that there is a constitutional limitation on the number of Ministers who can hold office at any one time. It is a disappointment to me that, in the case of Deputy Pat Rabbitte, an effort was made to endeavour to circumvent that limitation by creating a Minister, who is not a Minister, one who can take full part in discussions at Cabinet but who will not be a Minister because, wisely, the Constitution precluded the appointment of any more than 15 Ministers in any Government.

My second criticism is of the method by which this was done, which was invidious and unfair, unfair because the relevant Ministers of State were named before the decision in principle and the change in the law was effected by the Oireachtas. That was the wrong way to have conducted that business, was wrong and unfair to the individuals in question, wrong and unfair in that it amounts to an abuse of the Oireachtas itself. Rather the Taoiseach and Government should have awaited the decision by the Oireachtas to enact this Bill before having nominated people to these positions. They should have first got that decision, which would have been the correct procedure, the correct manner, in which to have conducted that business. Instead, what did they do? They named two people, knowing them to be decent people, and that, therefore, none of us would want to imply any criticism of those individuals. I have the height of respect for Deputies Doyle and Carey. In the case of Deputy Doyle, I was a Member of the Seanad when she was also a Member and I accept that she is diligent, hardworking and committed to the Oireachtas. In the case of Deputy Carey, ba dheacair domsa rud ar bith a rá in aghaidh Cláiríneach. Fáiltím, más mall féin é, roimh an gcinneadh a rinne an Rialtas urlabhraí don iarthar a ainmniú.

I welcome the idea of a Minister of State who will co-ordinate all the policies on the west, although I would have preferred if the west was not a factor in the nomination and we had looked, as did Fianna Fáil at nominating someone to consider the whole question of the rural areas which are generally in decline in the east, south, west and north. I am disappointed that as an afterthought the west was thrown a sop with the appointment of a Minister of State but that it does not seem to have been a major mainframe policy of the Government to examine how tax, social welfare, transport, environment, industrial and other Government policies impinge on the rural areas. That leads me to wonder whether the Government concept — I am not referring to Deputy Carey — of the solution to the problems of rural areas is to throw in a few more small presents and not undertake a complete review and major policy to ensure that all parts of the country operate on a level playing pitch.

I dtaca leis an nGaeltacht caithfidh mé a rá go gcuireann sé an-iontas orm, le 17 Airí Stáit ann, nach bhfuil aon Aire Stáit go bhfuil cúraimí na Gaeltachta ann féin leis féin aige. Sin rud a bhí ag an Rialtas deireanach: go raibh Aire Stáit na Gaeltachta nach raibh cúram ar bith eile air. Níl sé sin fíor sa chás seo agus, arís, caitheadh an Ghaeltacht isteach mar fo-rud ag an deireadh i ngeall go raibh casaoid ó mhuintir na Gaeltachta féin go raibh céim síos uair amháin eile tugtha don Ghaeilge agus don Ghaeltacht sa tír seo: nach raibh aon Aire Stáit i Roinn Ealaín, Cultúir agus Gaeltachta agus nach raibh aon Aire Stáit le cúramaí na Gaeltachta a dhéanamh. Tá an Ghaeltacht ag titim siar ó thaobh teanga de agus ó thaobh daonra de. Níl aon phleananna nua á fhorbairt chun í a chosaint. Caithfidh mé a rá nach cosúil go bhfuil an Ghaeilge ná an Ghaeltacht an-árd ar liosta tosaíochta an Rialtais seo.

Sílim féin go mba cheart don Rialtas athbhreithnú agus athmhachnamh a dhéanamh ar an mBille so. Chomhairleoinn dóibh é a tharraingt siar. Cuireann sé drochbhlas ar an bpolaitíocht in Éirinn, cuireann sé drochbhlas ar an Oireachtas agus cuireann sé drochbhlas ar Rialtas nua a bhí ag gealladh go raibh siad ag dul ag feidhmiú go difriúil ó chuile Rialtas a bhí ann rompu. Sílim féin, ar mhaithe leo féin agus ar mhaith le Tithe an Oireachtais, go mba cheart dóibh an Bille a tharraingt siar; athmheas a dhéanamh ar na ceapacháin ata déanta acu; déanamh cinnte go bhfuil Aire Stáit ag freastal ar chuile Roinn Stáit; agus déanamh leis an uimhir a bhí ann cheana, sé sin 15 duine. Ach in éagmais an Rialtas é sin a dhéanamh, caithfidh mé a rá go gcuirim fíor-fháilte roimh an ngeallúint atá tugtha ag ceannaire an pháirtí seo againne, Páirtí Fhianna Fáil, go ndéanfaidh sé an Bille seo a aisghairim nuair a thiocfaidh muidne i Rialtas arís.

I want to preface what I say by reading an extract from the Official Report on 13 December 1979. The then Taoiseach said:

It is clear at present that, because of the expansion of work in the various Government Departments and because of the intense increase in the demands made on Minister on the domestic scene, and especially because of the demands made on Ministers in regard to attendances at EEC meetings, additional Ministers of State are required. However, I think we can discuss that situation when we come before the House with the legislation when the Dáil resumes.

At that time the then Taoiseach was announcing the appointment of ten Ministers of State. I am sure one of the Wexford Deputies will vividly remember that one of the Ministers of State at the time was Deputy Lorcan Allen. Subsequently, in March the Taoiseach announced five additional Ministers of State. I listened to Deputy Doherty's contribution and he was one of the Ministers of State announced in March 1980 as well as the former Minister, Padraig Flynn, who subsequently went on to greener pastures in Europe. At that time the justification for creating the additional ministerial posts was the volume of work and EEC business. Surely the workload has expanded since then and there is even greater justification for these ministerial appointments. Surely time does not stand still. We are all aware of the concern in the west of Ireland, the bishops' concern about what is happening there and that the western community must be revitalised. We applaud the decision of the present Administration in appointing Deputy Carey as Minister with responsibility for western development and rural renewal.

Rural Deputies are conscious of what is happening to the social fabric of rural Ireland. We have all been concerned for some time about the retrograde step to close post offices in rural areas. The post office is a focal point of many rural communities and when hard-headed financial decisions were made to close some of them consideration was not given to the significance of the social impact of such closures. I would like my colleague, Deputy Durkan, in his new capacity as Minister of State to address that area. I congratulate my two colleagues on their ministerial appointments. It is worth researching whether it is possible in the long term for the Department of Social Welfare to give a subvention to some post offices to enable them survive. In many cases a small sum of money is required. There must be some mechanism to provide for them. We cannot talk about rural renewal and development if we close down rural Ireland. I do not intend to elaborate on the impact that would have on many communities, but I hope, having regard to the profile of the proposed Minister of State, Deputy Carey, this area of rural renewal will be considered. It is not enough to pay lip service to that idea, we must address it by doing something for people living in rural areas.

I appreciate the concern of the rural publicans who visited this House yesterday. In my area and in other rural areas quite often the pub is a focal point for meetings. It is like a social centre where bachelors go to have a few pints, to dance and be part of the social scene. If they did not frequent pubs they would probably be at home depressed. As a member of the select committee which considered the legislation on drink driving, who spoke about what was likely to happen if it proceeded and questioned the merits of some of its provisions, I regret that the Minister did not recognise the importance of what some Members said. It is regrettable that if one questioned the provisions of that legislation one was considered to be condoning people drinking to excess and then driving. Deputies who questioned those provisions were not condoning that, they were asking for sanity to prevail with regard to that legislation and, regrettably, it did not prevail.

Having regard to that legislation and other changes, a commission is investigating the number of Circuit Court sittings around the country. One of the areas in my constituency, Rathkeale, will be affected by this. The Circuit Court meets on three or four occasions a year and those meetings are important for the communities in which it meets. Those meetings are a focal point and are important for the people involved, such as local solicitors, defendants and others who need to have access to the Circuit Court. It is important because of its close geographical confines. If there are changes what will happen? People will be sent to Limerick city, Killarney or Tralee, putting unnecessary expense and time constraints on everybody. All this may happen because some enlightened person believes we must reduce the number of Circuit Court sittings. Yet, on the other hand — solicitors will verify this — there is a backlog of cases in those courts. I fail to understand the logic behind this decision as a great deal more manpower would be required to staff the extra resources. The people of that community are concerned about the decision and that is understandable. Such developments tear the life out of rural Ireland.

We all applaud the appointment of Deputy Doyle as Minister of State with special responsibility for consumers of public services. We are all aware of the impact of the public services on our roles as politicians and on the consumers of those services. Members of local authorities will be aware of the importance of providing a professional service for the consumer. While the office of the Director of Consumer Affairs deals with matters pertaining to consumers' rights, there is a need for a Minister of State with overall responsibility for co-ordinating the public services. We all want efficiency. The great buzz words these days are "accountability" and "transparency" and to achieve those objectives we must appoint somebody to monitor and co-ordinate the activities of the public service. I applaud the decision to appoint Deputy Doyle to that position, she will do a great job. Whatever exercise she was asked to carry out as a backbencher she applied herself to it zealously and I have no doubt she will do likewise as Minister of State.

I am amused at the hypocrisy which has emanated from the other side of the House in regard to this Bill. Members opposite have focused on the increase from 15 to 17 in the number of Ministers of State. They are very fortunate in that they have been given an opportunity to discuss the matter. In 1980 when the question of the appointment of five additional Ministers of State arose the Opposition was not allowed to discuss it. The Ceann Comhairle announced it and said there could be no discussion on the matter. Deputies opposite at least have an opportunity to discuss the matter now, they should not be hypocritical of the morality of what we believe to be right. There is no point in talking about western development and bringing life back to the west if we do not send a signal to that community that we are serious in our intent. What can be more serious than the appointment of a Minister of State with responsibility for western development?

One of the most important features of any public service department is the question of privacy for members of the public. I have put that matter on this month's agenda of my council on the basis that I believe many people wishing to discuss planning or housing applications in their local authorities are not afforded the privacy they deserve. I have seen people standing in line waiting to have private matters dealt with. We must be conscious of this problem in the public service, it must be addressed by a Minister. At the end of the day, the consumer is right and should be provided with an adequate service.

I am not sure if Deputy O'Keeffe was serious when he talked about our attitude to Shannon. What he said was a load of nonsense. It was as if he was padding the speech and wondering what he should say to have a lash at the other side. The people in the mid-west know this Government is committed to expanding the life of Shannon. We saw classic proof of that recently when the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications — a native of the mid-west — announced the allocation of £8 million to diversify activities in Shannon. I applaud that decision.

The ESB has a mandate to expand and diversify into other areas and we have seen the results of its mandate recently in regard to fisheries, from which they are backing off now. I believe the ESB has taken out shares in Farranfore Airport and I wish that airport well, but we must be consistent in this regard. If a semi-State body decides to take out shares, whether £10,000, £15,000 or £100,000, it sends out a signal. To be fair this should happen in the case of all airports, otherwise we should not go down that road. The long established airports in Dublin and Shannon must receive proper signals.

I welcome some of the recent changes. The service in Shannon has been improved considerably and there is more to come; Dublin has also benefited. The developments in regard to Russian airlines are worthwhile, Shannon is in safe hands. The commitment of the past Government was questionable because there appeared to be a lack of commitment to the fortunes of Shannon at Cabinet level. I assure the people of the mid-west that Shannon will not be forgotten in the future. It has been a vital industrial hinterland and cog in the development of that area.

It is fitting that Deputy Carey's brief extends to County Clare. Mr. Connolly's efforts in regard to the rural resettlement initiative has been a success story. People in urban areas who feel frustrated and dejected because they are part of a big surburbia conglomerate should start a new life in the west. They would be better off unemployed there and participating in a worthwhile scheme than living in a ghetto, and not part of a community, in Dublin.

(Wexford): What about the south-east?

I am sure the Deputy will fight a case for the south-east when he speaks later. I represent the mid-west region and in this House I reflect the viewpoint of my constituents. I support the general theme of what Mr. Connolly is trying to achieve and his efforts have been very successful in the west. They have had a significant impact in County Clare and the Government should support such initiatives.

I see a new life coming into urban Ireland and the Government can act as a catalyst to sustain that life. Deputy Browne, as a former Minister of State, will be aware of the success of the Leader Programme, which will create vibrant rural communities. This Government is sending out all the right signals to rural Ireland in appointing a Minister of State with responsibility for western development. The populace in general will recognise what this Government is achieving. The new Minister of State, Deputy Doyle, will improve the efficiency of the public service and at the end of the day the consumer will be far better off as a result of the appointment of both Ministers of State. I applaud their appointments.

We should not be hyprocritical. There will be a debate and people will want to score points, but we should look at it from the objective of what rural Ireland is achieving. Will it be better off as a result of the two appointments? I believe it will. I am delighted with the appointments and wish the Ministers of State well. At least we have given the Opposition an opportunity to debate the matter, we were not afforded the same when the number of posts was increased from ten to 15.

Debate adjourned.
Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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