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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 Jan 1995

Vol. 448 No. 2

Heritage Council Bill, 1994 [Seanad]: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I welcome the introduction of the Bill. As a previous Member of the Seanad I also welcome the fact that the Bill was introduced in that House. I have always believed there should be a greater division of legislation and that we should use both Houses in a more balanced way than we have done in the past. Perhaps now there will be cause to do so with the greater balance of Members between the Government and Opposition in that House. The Seanad is an appropriate House to tease out a Bill on which a considerable degree of thought, reflection and knowledge is required. I am well aware, also, of the number of educationalists and historians who are Members of the Upper House.

Putting the conservation, protection, identification and enhancement of our heritage on a statutory basis is long overdue. A Bill was introduced in draft form in 1982 but, unfortunately, it was never passed. The Heritage Council was set up in 1988 and now the Minister is proposing to put it on a statutory basis. That is what is required for the protection of our heritage.

Too many buildings, monuments, archaeological objects and, indeed, entire landscapes, including flora and fauna, have been damaged through neglect and lack of legal protection in the past. Our heritage is the totality of our historical inheritance. It is what has given us our uniqueness as a country and a people. Vandalism of our heritage should be subjected to the most severe penalties.

We must not simply conserve and preserve; we must develop, educate and promote an awareness and pride in our past. There are some aspects of our heritage I would not wish us to preserve or promote. In this context I am glad the Minister is proposing to establish standing committees, one to deal specifically with wildlife and wildlife habitats. In recent times we have got a very bad press because of the manner in which we deal with some of our harmless wild animals and birds. Both North and South we have acquired a rather unsavoury reputation for bloodsports of a particularly cruel and undesirable kind. Fox-hunting, badger baiting, hare coursing, the blooding of greyhounds with live rabbits and cock fighting are particularly gruesome activities and something we should deal with on a national basis. Regularly there are questions and allegations of abuse. Only recently in the BBC "Spotlight" programme in Northern Ireland it was related that fighting cocks and spurs were sold illegally at the traditional monthly horse fair at Smithfield in my constituency. Some of these activities are illegal and all of them are indefensible and I would like to see the council, through its new standing committee on wildlife, dealing with those as a matter of urgency.

Section 6 provides that the functions of the council shall be to propose policies and priorities for the identification, protection, preservation and enhancement of the national heritage, including monuments, archaeological objects, heritage objects, works of architecture, flora, fauna, wildlife habitats, landscapes, seascapes, wrecks, geology, heritage gardens and parks and inland waterways. That is a comprehensive list which indicates the plethora of areas that can be brought under the broad definition of heritage. We do not have a clear definition. I found it difficult to get anything like a precise definition but, according to the New Shorter Oxford Dictionary, heritage means that which might be inherited in terms of property or succession, that which would form part of a national or cultural heritage and that which was concerned with the conservation and use of the national or cultural heritage. It is easier to describe than to define. Heritage covers a wide range of subjects, from artefacts, topography, history, music, stories, archaeology to our history which details wave after wave of people who came to this island, leaving indelible marks in historical and archaeological terms. These include the pre-Celts, the Celts, the Vikings, the Anglo-Normans, the French and the Spanish, all of whom made a strong impact. In the Minister's constituency the effects of the Spanish Armada are strong. Off County Sligo the Armada left a huge number of wrecks and I am glad to see that an Armada museum is being established in that county. We heard the other day that the Minister is making an order to prevent interference with treasures uncovered on the tragic ship, the Lusitania, and ensure that any further action takes place under strict licence.

This very morning in my constituency of Dublin Central I received a call from somebody in Sean McDermott Street who told me that a team from the corporation had arrived to demolish a row of houses on one side of the street. I contacted the dangerous buildings section of the corporation by telephone to ask what was happening. I was asked to contact the maintenance depot which explained that it had received a call from the dangerous buildings section of Dublin Corporation about some buildings that the corporation considered to be unsafe and had been asked to erect a palisade fence around them. The maintenance section did not have a crew to do that but had a crew to demolish the buildings and, rather than erecting a palisade fence, they sent out a crew to demolish the row of houses some of which are derelict and some of which are not in bad condition. No discussion took place as to the merits of retaining the streetscape by preserving those mid19th century buildings which are roughly 150 years old. I eventually got a reply from the dangerous buildings section before the Dáil resumed this morning to the effect that it is has been agreed to postpone the demolition and erect a palisade fence, although that would take longer to do. The lazy ad hoc approach is unacceptable.

I consulted the Bill to see if there was anything to protect against this and section 10 provides that the council may consult with a local authority on the maintenance, preservation, restoration, upkeep and improvement of any heritage building owned by the authority. I would like some clarification on that. The section provides that the building would have to be a listed heritage building. A problem may arise, therefore, where, although none of a row of buildings is listed, they may be essential to the preservation of that streetscape. Could the interpretation of section 10 be expanded to require the local authority to have consultations and give the Heritage Council a role in dealing with matters of this nature? I am anxious to see that encompassed in that section. Perhaps we could tease that out on Committee Stage.

In my city and in towns and cities throughout the country there is a considerable degree of urban renewal driven by tax incentives. That is desirable and has resulted in the development of offices, apartments, etc. However, much of this development can be willy-nilly, with apartment blocks erected without an overall plan for the landscape. For example, there has been a variety of architectural styles used in new developments along the line of the Liffey quays yet there is a specific recognised architectural line on those quays. Similarly this is happening in other inner city developments, a site is acquired and the development which takes place does not necessarily fit in with the surrounding streetscape. The city or town architect should have responsibility for drawing up an overall plan in advance of urban renewal schemes in designated areas so that we do not have piecemeal development which neglects the overall picture. The urban renewal scheme has been very successful in eliminating derelict sites but I would not like to see it result in a mishmash with no regard for the overall picture.

We should take a pro-active approach to our archaeological heritage. The city archaeologist in Dublin has the resources to act only in the context of a development taking place and it is only when the builder is about to come on site that the archaeologist examines the terrain for archaeological remains. The development has been granted planning permission when the archaeologist examines the site and very often it is not appropriate to do anything apart from covering the remains. That is always a pressurised approach and I think there should be far more pre-planning. We should look at the areas of our city that are likely to have rich archaeological remains; we know where the Viking, Anglo-Norman and Huguenot settlements were in the city and certain areas should be surveyed and excavated long before any development is planned. We should take a pro-active approach to get the work done years ahead of the proposed development.

Another aspect of heritage is live heritage, for example, Moore Street, where street traders from time immemorial have sold fruit, vegetables and fish. That should be seen as an integral part of our heritage and promoted as desirable for tourism. The Smithfield horse fair has been an annual custom for centuries in the Smithfield market. As I have said one or two ugly practices have developed and there has been some criticism of the cruel treatment of horses but again this is an unusual part of the city, one might describe it as a rural custom located in a city environment. Obviously it is of immense interest to young people to be able to see horses in an urban setting. I would like to see this regulated and properly licensed but not driven out of the area as it brings a novel character to the heart of the city.

A great deal of specific work could be done with our built heritage. Saint Michan's Church in Dublin is celebrating its 1,000th year of existence this year, but it is in poor condition with water seeping through the roof. It would cost hundreds of thousands of pounds to do a proper job. This church has a fine tradition and its vaults house the preserved bodies of the crusaders. It deserves to be taken care of. The house of Sean O'Casey on the North Circular Road has had very little attention, I believe it is still let out in flats and totally unprotected or preserved. Saint Mary's Church in Mary Street — the name of which the good burghers of the city are endeavouring to change to Henry Street to give it a commercial focus to rival Grafton Street although I do not think the city councillors will agree to that — goes back to the 11th century and the Cistercians and it probably may well be the oldest church originally in the city. They would benefit from the focus of the new Heritage Council.

The new measures for the built heritage in private ownership are welcome. We would also need to survey and catalogue our built heritage nationally. Some work has been done through aerial photography but this task needs to be done county by county, town by town so that we have an overall catalogue. It is very important to have an overall picture as we would then be able to plan and develop policies, which is the specific brief of the National Heritage Council. We would have the information to respond to the broad canvass as distinct from our ad hoc responses in the past.

The statutory proposals for the independence of the National Museum and the National Library are welcome. It is proposed that the National Museum would have Collins Barracks as an exhibition area and it could put on display the rich artefacts now scattered in basements in its own offices in Kildare Street and elsewhere throughout the country. This will also present the opportunity to exhibit the many other treasures that have not been on public view because of a lack of space. The decision to open the premises as a museum is a wise one. It is easily accessible being located near Heuston Station and close to the city centre.

In the past we neglected the importance of local community involvement in heritage although many community groups have done excellent work. Perhaps the work best known is that done in the area of genealogy. However, there is a broader area of heritage work in terms of what is available on a historical, archaeological and industrial basis in a local community. This area lacks resources and a proper structure for development. Recently an Inchicore/ Kilmainham group carried out work in their area covering the Camac river, the Liffey area, the Inchicore works, the railway, various Viking artefacts and the buildings. It did a survey and drew up proposals to enhance some of the buildings, develop a centre and so on. The problem is how to progress the work beyond that point.

The council's function is to propose policies and priorities but how do we develop a network where such groups can be brought into the system and use all that rich local lore in the development of a national heritage policy?

I would like to see the areas of heritage better defined and described than they are at present and a greater degree of information and education provided — obviously there is a role for the schools to play in this area — so that we develop our uniqueness as a people. We have promoted tourism and, as a result, generated employment based on our heritage.

I welcome the powers in section 10 and would like to see them extended, if required, to protect the streetscape of the city some of which may not have a listed building or national monument.

I welcome the Bill. I am glad the Government is continuing the commitment given in the Fianna Fáil-Labour programme for Government. In 1988 the Government established a non-statutory National Heritage Council with advisory functions and this Bill is putting the Heritage Council on a statutory footing. Its ethos is to facilitate preservation and provide further access to our heritage.

During the debate in the Seanad much was said about the definition of heritage. It must have the widest possible definition in order to incorporate all of what we are. The term "heritage" must refer not only to the physical aspects of our history but must also express our unique psyche as a nation so as to enable us understand and interpret the resonance of our past.

I share the Minister's distaste of the term "cultural tourism" and the crass attitude that would seem to imply. No one would deny the obligation and responsibility of any Government to provide jobs for its people by promoting our history, archaeology, literature and music as long as what is presented is authentic. In this way our heritage is preserved and transmitted faithfully thereby creating sustainable jobs and presenting a true mirror image of our past.

I support the Minister in setting up a heritage policy unit where technical and trained staff will be available. From now on the Heritage Council will have policies based on further expert knowledge rather than being seen solely as a funding agency. While I welcome the authority given to the Heritage Council to exercise a special role in relation to buildings owned by public authorities and its added powers to veto any public authorities' plans to demolish, alter or dispose of a listed building without direct permission from the Minister, I fear the council may be inadequately funded and that the role envisaged for it by the Minister may be diminished. I understand that £2.5 million is allocated for 1995 and a further £2.5 million is to be allocated in 1996.

I would like to hear what the Minister has to say regarding the role of the Heritage Council in co-ordinating, advising and working with local amateur groups in small communities. In furthering their projects, the Heritage Council would be uniquely placed to encourage and promote further knowledge of and commitment to the need for preservation. This would further educational programmes which would result in the percolation of expert knowledge throughout the community. It is important that such a council would be seen to be close to the people and work on their behalf protecting their interests. Close co-operation and consultation with interested groups is essential to foster positive relationships not just with county councils but also with the general public. Easy accessibility to the Heritage Council is paramount.

Taking this Bill in conjunction with the national monuments legislation, much has been done to improve and highlight our awareness of the need to preserve and promote our heritage. We have recognised the need for legal provisions and remedies to ensure the safety of our heritage. Whereas the proposed legislation will enable the Heritage Council to have authority over listed buildings in the possession of local authorities, the council, if I understand it correctly, cannot acquire land or buildings from the authorities.

I would also have to question the powers — if any — of the Heritage Council wherever listed buildings are in private hands. As some people asked, would this pose a difficult constitutional problem with regard to property rights? For example, in such circumstances, would the Minister be in a position to persuade the Minister for Finance, to provide grants for listed buildings in private hands? However, I appreciate the Minister's argument in this respect, that each citizen must act responsibly where his or her heritage is concerned. Nonetheless, perhaps financial encouragement would prevent many listed buildings falling into disrepair or disintegrating. The Minister might specify what type of censure is available to the State if and whenever a listed building, in private hands, is demolished. In such circumstances, what legal remedies are available to the State? There also arises not only the question of the demolition of particular components of our heritage but in many cases some very old, historically valuable buildings in private hands, the owners of which are not in a position to maintain or repair them through lack of finance; there may well be the will but not the necessary financial backing.

I am pleased to note that the Heritage Council will be openly accountable through the declaration of its members' interests. I was pleased to note also the gender balance the Minister has ensured for its membership.

I might mention another matter which impinges on this debate and on that with regard to national monuments, which is the vexed question of occupiers' liability. No doubt the Minister will be aware of the tremendous problems faced by many landowners where there has been access to national monuments in private hands. We have been aware that farmers in rural areas have adopted a very open welcoming approach, when it came to allowing people access to their lands. However, because of the growing compensation culture within our society, we know there is genuine fear on the part of landowners of being sued in the event of an accident on their lands and, because of the legal limbo, many heritage sites have been closed to the public. In the northern part of my constituency— which the Minister knows very well — many landowners have felt that the only option available to them was to close access to their lands because of occupiers' liability. I am confident that the Minister, with such knowledge, will be in close communication with the Minister for Equality and Law Reform who has specific responsibility for the introduction of the Occupiers' Liability Bill, 1994, which will be discussed in the House later today. No doubt both Ministers will co-ordinate their efforts to tackle this serious problem.

We shall be able to tease out the detailed provisions of the Heritage Council Bill on Committee Stage, when I look forward to further discussion. I wish the Minister well in his endeavours vis-á-vis the provisions of this Bill which highlight awareness of and our needs with regard to our national heritage. I should like to see the broadest possible definition of that heritage which, to date, may have been appreciated by some only in our society. Perhaps we might examine some type of educational programme to be introduced at the earliest possible moment in primary schools so that this heightened awareness may be inculcated at a very early age.

I welcome the Bill and congratulate the Minister on his efforts in establishing this Heritage Council. Its provisions cover a very wide number of sites of enormous importance to our overall national heritage. As the Minister said, the functions to be assigned to the Heritage Council will be to formulate policies and priorities, to identify projects, preserve, enhance and increase awareness of Ireland's heritage which covers a very wide field. I was interested to hear Deputy de Valera refer to its budget being small. It is fair to point out that it was drawn up by her party in Government and I am sure that budget will be re-examined, if possible, dependent on available resources——

It will be interesting to see whether this Government can increase that budget. I have every confidence in the Minister ensuring that that will be the case.

This Government has been in office a very short time and it is wonderful to observe the dramatically changed attitude of Members now in Opposition. Indeed, I felt similarly when on that side of the House. I also hope that additional moneys can be made available to the Minister to increase that budget.

As far as I am concerned, the first priority is to give the people of Cavan-Monaghan a real opportunity to see their heritage, the first prerequisite to which must be filling the many potholes on our roads, thereby enabling natives and tourists alike to observe the great heritage within those areas.

I was also very pleased to hear Deputy de Valera refer to the need to have the Occupier's Liability Bill amended and enacted as quickly as possible. When in Opposition I spoke forcefully on this issue, one which engenders extreme anxiety on the part of property owners, not merely farmers, whose wish is to facilitate access to such sites for the general public, natives and tourists alike. As the Bill stands, there is an anomaly in that minors would not be covered under its provisions. I was pleased to note that in the Programme for Government there was agreement that the issue be examined. No doubt we will be given an opportunity later to make suggestions on how that Bill can be improved, so allowing many more people to enjoy and appreciate our great heritage. Indeed many of our residents have not seen all our heritage sites, which should be their priority before travelling abroad. However, we will be unable to see them unless that law is changed so that landowners feel free to allow everybody access to their lands.

This Heritage Council Bill is of great importance, not merely to our heritage but also to our tourism industry and its potential. We must remember that over many centuries our people have had no choice but to leave this lovely land of ours because of economic and other problems so that in the United States of America, Australia and other countries worldwide the children, great grand-children and other descendants of our people have an enormous desire to return here to investigate their ancestry and rejuvenate their links with this island. For that reason also it is most important to devise adequate safeguards and measures to protect, preserve and improve our heritage. Whenever Irish people travel worldwide, they always meet Irish people or those of Irish ancestry, all of whom want to return, to investigate their family roots, old graveyards and other heritage links of enormous importance to them, in which task the Heritage Council will have a major role.

When appointing members to this council the Minister should take into account the need to appoint people who have practical knowledge of not just our heritage, but of the cost of restoring and maintaining it. I say from these benches, as I said from the Opposition benches in the past, that the Minister should not appoint people just because of their political background.

It is important that the public believe that the members of boards and councils are appointed for the best reasons and have the interests of what they are appointed to do at heart. It is important that members of the council know if proposals put forward at board or council meetings are practical and can be implemented. There is no point in boards or councils spending hours debating impractical and unworkable proposals.

In my constituency the Clogher Historical Society has done tremendous work over the years promoting important issues and preserving artefacts. I am sure that a member of that council would be a suitable candidate for appointment to the new council being set up by the Minister. I mention that body because I am familiar with it and I appreciate the work it does.

The Minister mentioned that the Bill does not necessarily cover privately owned buildings and that is an important matter. He said he intended to bring forward other legislation to deal with this issue. In my area a derelict site order has been placed on some buildings, and a few weeks before or after those buildings were listed as important historical buildings as a result of which the owners cannot alter. It is all very well to list such buildings but in many cases groups cannot afford to maintain or preserve them. Unless funding is made available to assist such groups the listing of buildings can represent a negative approach because the old building is allowed deteriorate. In the previous Fine Gael led coalition grant-aid was available at least for the restructuring of private homes. It may not have been sufficient to maintain some of the larger buildings. That grant was abolished in 1988 and the Government must consider providing funding to preserve historical homes and buildings.

In my local village officials of FÁS, together with a small Church of Ireland group, came together and carried out some of the best work undertaken through the FÁS scheme to preserve the local market house in the centre of the village. That work has encouraged many local people to improve their buildings. As a result the appearance of the village and the local area has improved dramatically. Much work can be done to improve the appearance of local areas and help attract tourists.

The preservation of public buildings is another important matter. The Minister made it clear that we have a responsibility in this regard. In view of the problems encountered by local councils regarding the maintenance of roads and so on it is sometimes difficult for them to find the funds to preserve old buildings. Monaghan has led the way in ensuring that such buildings are made accessible to the handicapped and others and that work involves extra cost for councils and public bodies.

There are other aspects to our heritage, such as our unique drumlin countryside in Cavan-Monaghan. The councils in that constituency have decided to protect the appearance of the countryside by ensuring that houses and buildings do not spoil the landscape which is a tourist attraction.

Other important issues we must consider are finance, grant-aid and preservation. I spoke to a council official recently about the condition of an important historical monument, Clones high cross, situated in the Diamond in the town. Due to climatic conditions in the area — it has one of the highest levels of rainfall in the country — that cross is deteriorating and it will cost a great deal of money to preserve it. That is a typical example of a monument of great historical importance which cannot be preserved without financial backing.

The Brangan mountain is one of the most scenic areas in County Monaghan. I brought some German visitors to see it and they could not believe the beauty and the quietness there. The mountain is adjacent to a major county town, Monaghan. Financial assistance is needed to maintain the roads through the mountain otherwise tourists will not be able to travel on them. Some people who had to leave that region many generations ago find it difficult to understand why funds are not available for such work.

Thankfully following the peace initiative, about which we are all very happy, many changes are taking place in that area. I hope the new Heritage Council will assist development by way of grants and through EU funding. Community groups north and south of the Border are meeting to discuss how local areas can be improved and historical buildings preserved. In the past bogs were used for commercial purposes, but such work spoils an area.

There is great potential for bringing communities together north and south of the Border. Dungannon District Council and Monaghan Urban District Council have held a number of joint meetings and the staff of both councils have met. Such meetings are an example of how links between North and South can be maintained by community groups who can promote and improve our heritage. People who have lived North and South of the Border have different allegiances, but they can be brought together in community groups to work on commercial and historical ventures. The new Heritage Council will have a role to play in that regard.

Monaghan Museum Committee is possibly one of the best groups involved in historical and heritage projects. It has won many national and international awards. I understand the Minister will introduce separate legislation to deal with museums. Museums played a major role in the past by encouraging the preservation of buildings, artefacts and so on.

There are other sites in Monaghan town that need to be improved, for example, the Church of Ireland owns St. Patrick's Church in the centre of the town but its local community does not have a great deal of money for such projects. It spent £150,000 recently upgrading and improving the church's interior, but much work remains to be done. Its railings need to be replaced and the spirals need repointing, water is seeping through and damaging the inside of the church. I hope the Heritage Council can assist such communities who are in dire need of support. Their heritage and buildings are extremely important to their local areas and they would appreciate any assistance.

The council's remit will cover much more than buildings, it will cover wildlife, vegetation and so on. I welcome that as there is a danger of some species of wildlife disappearing. The council's work must be done in conjunction with local communities. The Erne catchment has attained greater importance by the opening of the Ballinamore-Ballycon-nell Canal. There is now great tourism potential in the area. However, there is an accumulation of silt at some bridges causing great damage to farmland, roads and private property. The Heritage Council, local groups and public bodies should work in harmony with people in the commercial field to ensure the two can work together. While I would not suggest that the Erne catchment should be a source of employment for former employees of the drainage programme set up by the Office of Public Works, it is important that some minor cleaning up works are carried out to maintain the livelihoods of people in that area and to allow councils in Monaghan and elsewhere to maintain their road structures.

A previous speaker referred to the delays in building road bridges linking North and South, a matter dear to my heart. The local people have requested that those bridges be rebuilt to their former glory, in other words cut stone bridges, but that would take some time and a great deal of money. If we are serious about retaining our heritage, we must allow time for such work to be carried out. If we want a fast fix we can build bridges very quickly, but if we want the work done properly it will take longer.

By encouraging the restructuring and refurbishment of old buildings the Heritage Council can create employment. This would take time and money, but it would give much needed employment and improve tourism potential. Many emigrants like to visit historic sites and buildings and they want them preserved. The maintenace of old graveyards is important and the council can also play a role in that regard.

Cavan-Monaghan was a flax growing area and many of the old mills and idle water-powered wheels can still be seen in the area. While it would not be feasible to preserve all of them, some should be preserved so that people can realise, for instance, the employment provided by that industry for hundreds of people in difficult times. Our agricultural heritage is also very important and must be preserved.

I compliment the Minister on introducing this important Bill. Since his party and mine formed the previous Government and the area of arts, culture and our heritage was given full ministerial prominence at the Cabinet table, the Minister has given this area a national profile and elevated its importance to the position it warrants. Our party Leader, Deputy Ahern, has given my colleague, Deputy de Valera, Front Bench responsibility for this important area and, on behalf of my party, I wish her well in her task.

This is an important Bill in that it brings together a diverse range of areas. The Heritage Council's work will embrace areas of great importance and rich merit in its protection and promotion of our heritage. We had examples this morning from Deputies Costello, de Valera and Crawford of the wide range of areas the Bill will cover. Deputy Costello referred to the Smithfield horse fair and the historic aspects of inner city Dublin, Deputy de Valera referred to the richness of our heritage on the west coast and Deputy Crawford spoke about the mountain region in Monaghan.

There are no mountains in Monaghan.

Deputy Crawford seems to believe there are, close to Monaghan town.

He was thinking of Louth.

The mountains in Louth are not physical, they are personal ones.

The Deputy has a few friends there too.

The council will have responsibility for a wide range of areas, namely, archaeology, architecture, flora, fauna, landscape, heritage, gardens and inland waterways. It reaches into the veins of virtually every corner of our county. In the last decade, and particularly since the Minister took responsibility for this area and raised its profile, the latent interest in the subject within communities has been brought to a focal point of interest. All communities are interested in ensuring that our heritage is preserved, maintained and upgraded.

One of the major tasks with which the Heritage Council will be charged is linking the urban and rural historical aspects of our society. There is the question of the preservation of historic buildings in inner city areas. There are also the traditional industrial complexes on which some excellent work has been done by the Guinness Company, at the CIE works at Inchicore and at Hillsmill in Lucan. Some traditional rich industrial history which was so much part of our past needs to be preserved and maintained in order that the younger generation can have an understanding of what life was like in the past.

A forerunner of the importance of heritage within the European Union was the recognition of the European Convention for the Protection of Historic Buildings which was signed in Granada in 1985. One has only to look across the borders of Europe, to central or eastern Europe, to see the destruction and the damage caused to historic areas such as Warsaw, Budapest and Prague which are now open to the free world. These will be the major tourist attractions that will complete with Ireland in the international tourism arena. I read recently that 80 million people visited Prague last year. That surpassed the number who visited Paris. There is a tremendous awareness among people anxious to delve into the past and visit places with such historic and rich heritage.

The city of Dublin which celebrated its millennium some years ago was a major talking point throughout the world for those interested in history and heritage. However, I agree with the Minister that from a community point of view it should not just be a tourist driven agenda that raises our concerns. There is a much broader community interest to preserve what is best and to enhance those facilities for our tourists. This subject means different things to different people. To some it means art, to others traditional culture — music and language — and yet to others, historic monuments, architectural preservation, the waterways and so on. The subject has a wide range of community appeal and interest.

I wish to refer to the question of the waterways and to recognise, as I have done in the past, the excellent pioneering work the Minister has done in regard to the Royal and Grand Canals, the excellent corridor policy of the potential for large urban areas and the excellent work done by FÁS in reinstating many of the gates on the canals. An issue near and dear to my heart is the Liffey Valley. Recently we discussed with the Minister how this could be made a living amenity within a large urban area. I am pleased that in November 1984 I proposed that a special amenity area order be placed on the Liffey Valley. At that time there was not much knowledge about what that meant. I asked a colleague of the Minister, then Councillor Michael Gannon, to second the motion for whom I had to clarify my intentions and ideas on the matter. We both reside in and represent the Lucan area. The Liffey Valley is an important facility in that community. I was pleased that some years later the former Minister for the Environment, now Commissioner Flynn, signed that special amenity area order. To date it is the only such amenity order adopted here. In co-operation with the Minister I hope that facility will become a living linear park with all the wonderful flora, fauna, rockface, waterfalls and the excellent facilities which Pete St. John described so well in the song, "Where the strawberry beds sweep down to the Liffey". It is a magnificent facility which needs to be protected.

In the early 1980s when the environment debate was not as high on people's agenda as it is today we took that decision at local authority level. The excellent work done by the parks and planning departments at that time in carrying out a comprehensive study of the Liffey Valley to justify the then Minister accepting the complex issue of signing a special amenity area order is a forerunner to what can be achieved in local communities where some historical facilities and excellent amenities need protection. I have no doubt the Heritage Council in co-operation with the Liffey management committee, set up by the local authorities, will see that project as a means of making a 300 acre linear Liffey Valley park available not only to the one million people of Dublin but as a national and tourist facility. The waterways which will play an important role for the Heritage Council bring rich rewards quickly for a limited outlay. They provide communities with fishing facilities, walkways and so on. The whole recreational passive amenity potential of the waterways can be worked on diligently.

Other aspects of the work of the Heritage Council include wildlife. Recently I read that the corncrake is under threat. Modern farming has a major impact on wildlife. There is a major interface between the workings of the Heritage Council and the farming community to synchronise the potential for both sectors to live happily together. There are excellent facilities on the west coast and in the Sloblands of Wexford for the protection of wildlife.

The new Heritage Council, particularly the policy heritage unit to which the Minister referred, will be welcomed. An archaeologist, an architectural historian and an ecologist will be specifically charged with the task of ensuring that all these aspects of our heritage are adequately protected.

Within our communities there are many voluntary bodies such as community councils, residents' associations and other groups who perhaps could co-operate with post primary schools with a view to submitting an action plan on art, heritage and culture in their communities. Perhaps a pro forma blueprint document could be provided by the Heritage Council to those communities and they would then return their action plans to that body. Over a period of years, with the limited funds available, the facilities in the area of art, culture and heritage could be provided.

My colleague, Deputy de Valera, referred to the allocation of £2.5 million which will be spread over two calendar years. It appears there is an allocation of £1.5 million for 1994 and I hope that is not a downgrading of the figure. Perhaps the Minister will clarify that matter.

The Heritage Council will have a very important and dynamic role in future. This whole area is of tremendous interest to virtually every member of the community. The Heritage Council will have an intriguing challenge in protecting our heritage and I look forward to its early setting up. I hope it will be given a realistic budget and a good level of staffing to embark on its important work.

I wish to make a short contribution and I will be direct. I welcome the Bill and congratulate the Minister on it. Over the years I have not always congratulated him but I do so unreservedly on this Bill which gives statutory effect to the Heritage Council established in 1988. As Deputy Lawlor said, this Bill deals not just with one aspect of Irish society, it is a recognition of our historical past down the centuries, and I think it will be accepted and welcomed by almost everybody in the community.

A matter of concern to me relates to listed buildings. Much work has been done in recent years in identifying buildings worthy of listing but there is a lack of grant facilities to people who cannot afford to maintain them. It is all right for local authorities to have the resources to maintain listed buildings but it is unfair to expect people with diminishing incomes to maintain them. Will the Minister, perhaps on Committee Stage, consider the possibility of providing worthwhile grants to enable people in those circumstance to maintain noteworthy buildings, of which there are hundreds in every county? It is always sad to see castles in a state of decline. There are many examples of castles that have weathered the storms of centuries and are derelict. While the Office of Public Works has done good work in this area there is need for greater preservation of these buildings.

I endorse what Deputy Lawlor said in that I hope meaningful funding will be provided for the Heritage Council. It should not just be a talking shop but should be provided with the wherewithal to restore old buildings, castles, churches and so on, to a proper state. With the peace process in the North, I hope that in the next ten or 20 years there will be a steady influx of visitors to this country, not only from Europe and America but also from the North — an astonishing number of the Unionist people have never set foot in this part of the country.

I wish to refer to the Lusitania. In the daily papers recently there has been a lot of conjecture about that tragic event. That vessel has been submerged off the Cork coast since 1915, with little or no attempt made by this country to salvage it. I always tend to support the underdog, I have a sneaking regard for the saying “finders keepers, losers weepers”, and if private individuals or companies were to engage in a salvage operation they should be given some share of the spoils — I am sure the Minister will disagree with me on that.

I wish to be parochial, as we all are from time to time, and refer to my own county. There is tremendous scope for the development of the Heritage Council. I come from a Border area, an area that is rich in song and story and the home of Cuchulainn and the Táin Bó Cualnge. When looking recently at a picture of Queen Meadhbh who came from Connacht, from where the Minister also comes——

——I was struck by a similarity in the facial expressions of Queen Meadhbh and the Minister. Perhaps the Minister is a descendant of hers. The Minister should provide funds to clearly define the Táin Bó Cualnge trail in County Louth which meanders over the Cooley Mountains. Perhaps at some future date he will open that laudable venture.

The Heritage Council should provide meaningful help for the restoration of Slane Castle, County Meath, which was recently horrendously damaged by fire. The State cannot, while this castle is in private hands, in the hands, possibly, of my successor——

If he gives it to the State we might do something with it.

I wish him well. All the philanthropists are on the Fianna Fáil benches. I am sure the Minister will agree that that beautiful and historic castle should be preserved for the benefit of the nation and its owner.

Will the Minister encourage the Heritage Council to look at the historic town of Drogheda which was ransacked by Cromwell? I commend the Office of Public Works on the work it carried out on the round tower in the Monaster-boice area which is probably unequalled anywhere else. The Celtic high crosses have also been very well preserved. All of us could talk at length about the areas of historical interest in our counties and the objective of the council will be to look at every county, which is as it should be.

This is a very opportune Bill. However, it is illogical to ensure protection for wildlife while allowing the horrible sports of hare coursing and fox hunting to continue. We should not be so hypocritical as to designate areas for wildlife and at the same time allow people to engage in sports which allow timid animals to be torn asunder by dogs. We live in a more enlightened age and I hope the Minister will provide some protection for timid creatures which may be torn to pieces under the guise of sport.

I welcome this long overdue Bill. Up to now heritage issues have been subjected to fragmented policies and responsibility for heritage has been divided among many Government Departments. On many occasions there were very poor lines of communication between the bodies charged with responsibility for the preservation and conservation of our heritage. The Minister has very good vision and I am sure he will give the council the broadest possible remit.

I regret that the National Museum does not fall within the remit of the council. Given our experience of fragmented heritage policy, we should integrate all heritage matters and responsibility for its preservation and conservation in the most comprehensive way possible. The National Museum is the repository of most of the artefacts which have been found over the centuries. The Egyptology collection in the museum is amazing, yet it is not on display to the public. We should ensure that the National Museum is seen as an integral part of the national heritage and that it comes within the remit of the National Heritage Council.

We should seek to adopt the integrated approach adopted in Scandinavian countries, particularly Sweden. The disorganisation caused by fragmented policy is well illustrated by a project in Dublin under which apparently Dublin Tourism has been allocated £5.7 million to construct a Viking exhibition in the old church of St. Michael and St. John in Essex Quay. Very few conservationists, of whom I am one, agree with this and I am glad to note that the Director of the National Museum has dissociated himself from this project. The sum of £5.7 million represents one-third of the total amount made available last year by the Government for the preservation of national monuments.

This project will give a theatrical presentation of Viking Dublin. On 3 January last The Irish Times journalist, Frank McDonald, reported that the work on the church involves stripping all the interior plaster, removing the ornate timber-fronted gallery and columns supporting it as well as the organ loft and the vaults, the three altars and portions of the rare regency gothic ceiling. This should not be allowed to happen.

If we want a Viking museum in Dublin it should be located in Collins Barracks situated in Viking Dublin. This EU funding could not have been obtained without the involvement of a Government Department. A substantial amount of money has been allocated to Dublin Tourism for this project. The National Museum is named as a partner but it has dissociated itself from it. The National Museum is named as a partner but it has dissociated itself from it. The project appears to have little support and to be a commercial venture which will present Viking Dublin in, as another Deputy described it, a blancmange fashion in a gutted church which was the original site of the Smoke Alley Theatre before it became a whiskey store and during the earlier part of the century was one of the first preEmancipation Gothic-type churches in Dublin.

This is the type of issue which needs to be addressed by the Heritage Council, but unfortunately it will not be in place to look at this project. We should not allow this type of development again and I advise the Minister to include all aspects of the spending of EU funding in the remit of the council. During the debate on the National Monuments Act I quoted from a section of the Maastricht Treaty which promises funding for the preservation of areas of European culture in member states. Naturally the Viking heritage of Dublin falls into that category. It is very regrettable that this funding has been allocated to such a garish and inappropriate project.

I wish to refer to the designation of heritage sites, that is boglands, raised bogs, wildlife habitats, etc. I am delighted that at last we are seeing some of the funds of this policy in operation.

The section of the Office of Public Works responsible for the designation of heritage areas has designated sites in at least 22 counties. I understand four counties remain, Cork, Kerry, Monaghan and Donegal.

I live quite close to such an area which was previously designated as an area of international scientific significance. Under its new title it is now a designated heritage area. We should be sensitive about our approach to this issue. Some aspects of it will become controversial in the future and it is timely that we should anticipate disputes and controversies that may arise. Publication of lists of heritage areas has been withdrawn in 12 counties on legal advice until there are amendments to the Wildlife Act, 1976. The advice is that as there is no proper appeals system it might not be proper to publish the lists as representing legal documents.

Many landowners might not be pleased to be notified that a portion of their land is being enclosed as a heritage area. On the appeals system. I understand that in the case of a person who is unhappy, for economic reasons, about the designation of a portion of land they own or occupy, he or she can only appeal on scientific grounds. That will have to be expanded to include, in certain circumstances, economic grounds because while many landowners may be using these lands for marginal use, they regard them as part of their essential economic assets. If these portions of land are declared heritage areas, their current use is prohibited. In other words, the trespass of conventional agriculture or afforestation will not be allowed.

As the Minister will know, in recent years afforestation has been identified as the appropriate use for much of what we once described as our wastelands. We did not recognise then that our wastelands were of great heritage and scientific interest. Nevertheless, it is naturally well rooted in the mind of a landowner or an occupier that all land has some economic potential. When we finally publish details of an appeals system under which a landowner or an occupier may appeal, they should include a provision for appealing on economic grounds. The Minister should take note of that because when the necessary legislation is passed by this House, it will be noted by interested parties and be the subject of great controversy. That is a controversy we should try to avoid.

The National Heritage Council should play a responsible role in relation to national monuments. This has been a pet subject of mine for many years because I was spokesperson for my party on the Office of Public Works. I am interested in that area. There are many monuments, old churches, ruins of old monasteries and so on. There is not any townland or parish in the country that does not have a monument of historical or archaeological significance.

It is estimated there are approximately 150,000 sites of archaeological interest throughout the country. Unfortunately, only about 700 are designated as national monuments. Those monuments receive the full protection of the law at present. I understand that at present, the national monuments section of the Office of Public Works is only carrying out conservation and preservation works on approximately 200 of the 700 designated as national monuments. That is not very satisfactory when one considers the number of such monuments.

I live within a few metres of a 13th century abbey ruin. I Iobbied various agencies in an effort to obtain some funding which would allow us to carry out conservation work on it. I am referring to Cloonshanville Abbey, a 13th century ruin with a central tower in quite good condition. Much of the original stonework and the original motif remains intact. The recent storms, however, blew away a portion of the top of that tower and it also destroyed one stone with a motif and certain other dressed stones. I have not received any response to this from the national monuments branch of the Office of Public Works because there is simply no money to deal with it. The Office of Public Works seems unable to detach itself from the monuments it is working on to carry out urgent remedial work on a significant monument damaged by the elements. It is unfortunate that a more flexible approach is not adopted. I appeal to the Minister, when he is giving the remit to the National Heritage Council, to ensure that such damage by the elements — I am sure last week's storms damaged other monuments — is repaired. I hope the National Heritage Council will have the power to insist on such work being done.

I realise all of this will require money. I examined the Estimates for the public service in recent years on the amounts of money spent each year under the heading of National Monuments. In the 1994 Estimates — I do not yet have the 1995 Estimates — the amount of money spent was £17,645,000 but in 1993 the figure was £19,499,000. That represents a 10 per cent decrease in the 1994 figure but there may be a special reason for that; perhaps a particular project cost more money in 1993. It is obvious that the amount of money provided is not addressing the problem. I am not convinced that it is all well spent or well focused. I realise most of it is spent on staff salaries, on the maintenance of certain depots throughout the country, on work on a number of designated monuments and where the national monuments branch undertake certain restoration or conservation projects that may continue for years.

I wonder if we are getting good value for that money because any results manifest to the public are few and far between. If one were to ask what major conservation work was done last year with the £17.5 million one would probably see it all in one day and might conclude that we did not get value for it. I do not wish to criticise Departments, but I presume that the national monuments branch is operating to procedures that have not been changed in 50 years. That needs to be seriously looked at and perhaps the Minister would ask the incoming Heritage Council to examine the cost effectiveness of Government spending on national monuments. Contrast £17.5 million spent around the country with £5.7 million from EU funding for a single project in Dublin. Very few people in the business of historical conservation would agree with that. The Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht or the Department of Finance should have first say over where funding of that kind from the EU should be spent. If that were done there would be greater accountability.

Within the heritage areas there are categories described as of international scientific interest, national scientific interest and local scientific interest. When these areas are designated, what plans are in hand to signpost and protect them? Will there be enough wardens to ensure there is no encroachment on these areas? There are national monuments throughout the country protected by law but there is no effective protection because there is nobody to protect them. I live near one of the most significant earthwork monuments in the country, the Cruchann complex, which is set in farmland. We are lucky that the farmers on whose land they are sited are conscious of the need for conservation and that the intensity of grazing they are subjected to is not damaging. However, there are many areas where the reverse happens and where there is no protection, where it is an offence under the law to damage them but where the law does nothing to protect them because it does not put in place an inspectorate consisting of wardens etc., to ensure they are properly protected.

There is no point in designating something like 450,000 hectares comprising 1,300 sites as significant areas from a heritage point of view if we do not provide protection for them. I appeal to the Minister, as soon as the work of designation and setting up legal ownership in State hands is done, to protect these areas. We have a very bad record of protecting old monastic sites many of which have had artefacts taken away from them. How many fieldworks in this country have been ploughed away? Earthworks going back to the Bronze Age, about the earliest we have, have been destroyed by farming, and this has taken place over hundreds of years. However, we are more conscious of these things nowadays. We must think about the long term and ensure that the Heritage Council has a role in protecting areas designated as heritage areas.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Bill which provides for the replacement of the existing National Heritage Council with the statutory body to be called the Heritage Council. I pay tribute to the Minister's commitment and that of everybody involved in putting together this complex and important legislation which focuses attention on something dear to the hearts of us all. South Tipperary, which elects me to the House, is a place I am proud of and, although the Minister does not want to hear a list of all the monuments in my constituency, it is important to mention some in this short contribution.

The council will replace the Wildlife Advisory Council and the Historic Monuments Council and establish standing committees on wildlife and archaeology. The duties of the council are to propose policies and priorities in relation to the physical heritage of which we are so proud. One aspect of the duties of the council which is particularly important is the promotion of interest in our physical heritage with related responsibility for providing information about noteworthy features of our natural environment. Many people take these features for granted and there is a need to bring them to their attention. In that regard I want to pay special tribute to Liam Ó Murchú's television programme, filmed by RTE and entitled "Ireland's Rich and Rare Land". It highlighted the fact that Ireland is rich in treasures and that people are prepared to come here on holidays just for the privilege of standing on soil close to these monuments and of seeing them at first hand.

We have a wealth of treasure and it is appropriate that a Minister who has a tremendous interest in this field should legislate to heighten awareness and give responsibility to various agencies, including local authorities. It makes me proud to be a member of a local authorities when it is envisaged that State agencies and particularly local authorities will co-operate in this area. The county development officers have identified in the county development plans areas of heritage which are to remain untouched by development regardless of its desirability. I am delighted the Minister has recognised the importance of local authorities in providing the first level of recognition of our heritage. It is important that the Bill provides also that buildings owned by the local authority or other State agencies can be designated by the Minister on the advice of the Heritage Council as heritage buildings. Under the Bill there are protective measures for land and other buildings adjoining heritage buildings and this is to be welcomed.

We will deal later with the Occupiers' Liability Bill, 1994. Deputy de Valera in her contribution spelled out how the owners and occupiers of lands on which there are historic buildings were generally willing to allow people access to photograph monuments at considerable risk from people conscious of their rights in the event of injury and who would make claims, spurious or otherwise. I am glad that the Occupiers' Liabiility Bill will address this. Whereas the national monument may be on private property, it belongs to the State and legislation that identifies that but protects the rightful landowner is essential. I have no doubt that the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht will have had consultations with his colleague, the Minister for Equality and Law Reform.

My constituency in Tipperary is rich in national monuments. One has to visit the Rock of Cashel to appreciate the history of the area. It has been refurbished at colossal expense by the Office of Public Works. I had the privilege of being married at the Rock of Cashel with the permission of the Office of Public Works and the Catholic Church so it has a personal significance. To choose to get married on 3 January at the Rock of Cashel indicates a level of courage which can only be attributed to politicians. Things have worked out well since — I am still here and the Rock of Cashel is still standing.

In my constituency we have also the wonderful Cahir Castle and Cahir Abbey — which still has the evidence of Cromwell's assault with shells embedded in the walls — the West Gate in Clonmel, Ormond Castle in Carrick-onSuir and the Swiss Cottage which the President visited. There are enterprene-urs in America prepared to help us rebuild the Swiss Cottage.

We have discussed what urban renewal has done for many areas and I know that in Clonmel the urban renewal scheme has been dramatically successful and a recent extension of that scheme was very important. However, there are always difficulties with tax incentives to do something. In Clonmel, 99.9 per cent of the people managed to carry out their plans within the period of the scheme and the refurbishments have transformed the town of Clonmel. There is a wonderful old mill in the centre which nobody has yet refurbished. It is probably not very important historically but it now sticks out like a sore thumb in the middle of the urban renewal area. Somebody has applied for planning permission to convert the old mill and use it as a transport museum to commemorate Clonmel's link with Bianconi, the instigator of public transport. Planning permission has been received for this proposed development but it is not within the time frame of the urban renewal scheme so I hope the Minister will use his good office to make representations about this to the Department of Finance. Where old buildings cannot be demolished without creating consternation but can be renewed and in this case used to commemorate someone such as Bianconi it can become a tourist attraction and help to generate activity in an area. The Minister kindly notified me last night of his intention to visit Clonmel to open the Gaelscoil in March and not alone will I show him the Rock of Cashel but also this mill.

The Minister has given a commitment to ratify the European Convention for the protection of archaeological heritage signed in Granada in 1985, the Department is losing no opportunity to meet the requirements of the European body. The Council of Europe has a body specifically interested in archaeological monuments and there is probably assistance by way of grants and funding available to us to ensure that our heritage is not lost through decay. As Deputy Connor says, it costs money to preserve our monuments, but it is a tremendous investment for the future.

There is a reference in the Bill to the abolition of the Wildlife Advisory Council and I take this opportunity to commend the work of the National Association of Game Councils who have committed themselves to the preservation of species of birds and wildlife. The PRO of that organisation is quite involved in South Tipperary and is in constant communication with the Minister and me. Flora and fauna are part of our heritage and we should not allow widespread destruction of certain species of birds because Italians are prepared to pay money to holiday in Ireland and shoot indiscriminately at everything, including the occasional landowners who may be obstructive.

We have an obligation to consult the expertise available from bodies such as this Association of Game Councils and perhaps the Minister would consider this when making appointments to this new council. I am delighted to see that there will be gender balance, but that is to be expected from the Minister. I look forward to expert representation on the Heritage Council and I hope the views I have expressed will assist the Minister in choosing the best people to assist us in this area. I am delighted that there was such a welcome for the Bill in the Seanad and in the debate so far in this House. It is an indication of our commitment to this legislation.

(Laoighis-Offaly): I welcome the opportunity to contribute and put on record a number of points which I hope the Minister will take into account. When I looked through my file I saw that my last notes in preparation for speaking were made on 2 November. It seems a lifetime ago now.

The Bill aims to set up the Heritage Councils on a statutory basis. That and as Deputy Ferris said, the fact that the Bill received such widespread support in the Seanad and here indicates how we have come to appreciate our heritage for itself and not just as something to be trotted out between April and October.

The initial contribution I intended to make referred to the fact that the Heritage Council would not have power to hold land or buildings. I felt that was a defect and I am glad that in the Government's programme it is stated that on Committee Stage amendments will be made to the Bill:

stating that the policy functions of the Commissioners of Public Works under legislation relating to the heritage, shall be performed by them subject to the general directions in writing of the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht;

enabling the Minister to set priorities and targets for the Commissioner; and

requiring the Commissioners to provide relevant information:

enabling the Heritage Council to own land and buildings.

When introduced that will be a good addition to the Bill. However, much thought and effort will have to be put into working out the relationship between the Heritage Council, the Office of Public Works and the Department. The fact that the Heritage Council will be on a statutory basis gives the Department and the Minister freedom to manoeuvre and make changes. I would not like those interested in history and heritage to be confused, particularly in areas where there are monuments and other, as one of my professors used to say, artefacts, sociofacts or mentafacts associated with our heritage.

Under the Programme for Government the role and functions of the Office of Public Works will be closely examined and reassigned where necessary. The Minister is considering setting up an inland waterways authority, an area in which the Office of Public Works has done a lot of work. The Heritage Council will work in the heritage area and the wildlife functions have already been transferred to the Minister. I hope that process will not take too long to complete. At the end of it, there will be a clear structure of responsibility and authority for the various areas of heritage and those interested in heritage will know with whom they should deal. This is also important in the area of heritage tourism.

As I said earlier, heritage is not just something for tourists, nevertheless heritage tourism is important. In the report commissioned by Bord Fáilte a number of years ago from Ventures consultancy on the subject, the potential for the development of heritage tourism was clearly outlined and a number of themes suggested — not to turn the country into a theme park but to offer a range of areas of interest which might correspond to the hobbies and interests of tourists and natives alike.

In my town, Tullamore, a local established historical and archaeological society is very anxious to develop a heritage centre which would show visitors the industrial heritage of the town which began with the extension of the Grand Canal from Dublin which led to the development of the distillery and associated industries and crafts. The public are confused about whom to talk to. Under the last programme for Structural Funds, Bord Fáilte had a clear responsibility there. Now that the profile of the Department has increased, people feel they should talk to the Department. That is an example of where changes being made should be communicated clearly to the public so that if local groups are interested in participating in the development and exhibition of the heritage in their area they know to whom to turn to for advice and assistance.

Another area which is important to keep in mind is the quality of service the Heritage Council will offer the public. When the council was on a non-statutory basis the level of service was not always the highest. I appreciate that it operated under severe constraints, not least among which was its small number of staff. The Minister will be aware of a particular instance in my county where an application was made to the council for assistance but very little was received in return. That is the worst of all possible responses. I would like to think that the statutory council will operate the highest level of service, have an open relationship with the public and offer assistance promptly to groups or individuals who communicate with it. Where it may suggest that expert opinion be brought in to comment on a development, it must always be realised that the opinion of an expert who may work in a secluded office in Dublin, no matter how valuable it is, must always be considered with the initiative and interest of the local group who are trying to develop something in their area on a shoestring budget. What is desirable in the ideal sense from the experts' point of view may not always be practical from the point of view of the local group or organisation.

We should take a practical approach to this. There could be cases where a building could be allowed fall into disrepair because a group could not restore it to the level recommended by the expert. We must realise that many of these groups work under very difficult conditions and, if they do not do something to protect and enhance the heritage of their areas, some buildings or heritage sites may be lost.

I should like some elaboration of section 11 which deals with co-operation, assistance and advice and includes payments of money on such terms and conditions as the council may decide. Perhaps the Minister would give us some idea of how this might work in practice. The Heritage Council should not be perceived merely as another grant-giving body. The provisions under which financial and other assistance may be offered should be clearly specified.

There have been many references to the built heritage, monuments and buildings. I should like to think the Heritage Council will take a very broad view of our heritage. A professor, some years ago when I studied cultural geography, divided culture and its remnants into artefacts, sociofacts and mentafacts, demonstrating that heritage encompasses a very wide area, not merely the buildings and monuments located in our respective local areas. It comprises records of people's lived experiences which are very important also. Indeed there has been a great nationwide interest in recent years in historical, archaeological and genealogical research, which elements of our heritage merit in-depth consideration by the Heritage Council. It has to be acknowledged that many projects have been undertaken with the support of local historical and archaeological societies and organisations, in many cases, supplemented by help from local authorities and bodies such as FÁS. In my local area I can instance a number of exhibitions, publications and other documents produced by young people who participated in courses run by FÁS supported by the local authority. These wider elements of our heritage must be supported and given due regard in the activities of the Heritage Council.

Language and languages is another feature of our culture which the Heritage Council should support but not by becoming another Bord na Gaeilge. Various languages have been important to our national heritage and, should be taken into consideration in the activities of the Heritage Council.

Another aspect of our heritage of which the Heritage Council should take account is what is now described as the Irish diaspora. As we prepare for the commemoration of the Famine we are reminded of the interaction and association of our people here with Irish people in other parts of the world, a subject on which the President will address the House next week. The Heritage Council should forge strong links with Irish people and organisations abroad as well with those at home.

I hope the Minister will take my points on board and I look forward to development of the heritage area once the council has been established and when the Minister's Department begins to implement the aims and objectives set out for it under both the previous and current programmes for Government.

Tá mé that a bheith buíoch do na Teachtaí as an mbealach a d'fháiltigh said roimh an mBille seo agus go h-áirithe as an mbealach cúirtéiseach, cúramach, foirfeach a cuireadh chuige sin.

It is clear that no matter what reservations Members may express about the provisions of this Bill, there is a general, genuine interest in it. I have been most impressed by the amount of thought and research that has gone into their contributions. It is not unfair to say that there is a wide, committed consensus on our heritage on all sides of the House.

As I said in my introductory remarks, the establishment of the Heritage Council, as a statutory corporation, must be viewed within the context of an overall strategy in the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht. Policy formulation within my Department will be assisted by a group of corporate bodies with specialist membership who, in addition to providing advice, will carry out specified executive functions beyond the ambit of existing institutions. The establishment of these other institutions which will enjoy a degree of responsible autonomy is a very important development.

I take the point made by Deputy Pat Gallagher in his long and thoughtful speech, that it is very important that the public understands all of these relationships so that people know exactly who is responsible for what and what is the relationship of one part of the system with another.

The Bill sets up one of the bodies to which I have referred, An Chomhairle Oidhreachta, "oidhreachta", being a word I like. In answering the comments of Members who have contributed to this debate, I might make the point that "oidhreachta" in the Irish language has a meaning far wider in its resonance than its English equivalent "heritage". To be as economical as I can in responding to Members' points, and also to impart the maximum amount of information, which I am anxious to do, I should say there will be the Department and then certain bodies, with statutory dependence, which will have a degree of autonomy, which is very important.

This Bill is part of a package of legislation being prepared by my Department. Before the summer recess this House passed a very important Bill to amend the National Monuments Act. My Department is working on other proposals to amend the Wildlife Act and to provide new legislation for the National Museum, National Library and parks. I invite Members to take this corpus of legislation together as the legislative heritage package which will enable us to be responsible and have an orderly relationship with heritage preservation institutions. I assure Members that it is also my intention that we will not delay in signing any convention or fulfilling any international obligations in matters of heritage and wildlife and I am making preparations to that end. With the enactment of this corpus of legislation, of which this Bill is one component, we shall have provided a sound, statutory basis to protect our heritage.

In the course of the debate Deputies Creed and Quill referred to the plethora of heritage centres built around the country and to the potential problems if some of these do not prove to be viable operations. I share some of their fears in this respect. Indeed, the existing National Heritage Council has been very conscious of this danger also. I note that it has not provided funds for such ventures where a viable future has not been reasonably assured.

At the same time I want to be sympathetic. Now that I am a member of a second coalition Government I favour even more transparency in Government. One of the difficulties I have experienced in this ministry of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, with general responsibility for heritage, is the number of dormant areas which has suddenly been stirred into life. That is certainly true in arts and indeed right across the cultural area.

While people have often not planned work in the best way I am very sympathetic that at least they have tried. It is often not their fault that work was not planned properly. We must try in a planned environment to assist such people to do work in a policy directed way that makes sense for them and us in the long term. There has been an explosion of interest in this area. Deputies who speak thoughtfully here about heritage are also representing their constituents. It is wonderful that the present generation of young people are more conscious about this area and that is welcome. For someone like me that means there will be an explosion in demand, everyone will want everything yesterday. We are trying at present to put a statutory regime in place that will be adequate, easily understood and efficient in delivery of the available resources.

Deputy Creed suggested that this Bill should be extended to include the National Museum and the National Library. The new council will have a broad remit which will cover the general range of subjects concerning those two institutions. For instance, it will have a role in relation to archaeology, the natural sciences and heritage objects which include books more than 25 years old. However, it should be remembered that the council's main objective will be to propose policies. It will not be a management body and it will be no more concerned with the management of the Museum and the Library than it will be with the management of, for instance, parks and inland waterways, I welcome the opportunity to explain that it will be concerned with policy in these areas. That is the distinction between this Bill and the Bill dealing with the Museum and the Library to which I referred. The latter Bill will deal with the management of those two important national institutions.

Deputy Quill mentioned the need to give greater protection to architectural heritage and I fully agree with her. As I said in my speech, I am examining how this can best be done as this is a complex issue. The National Monuments Acts and the planning Acts provide considerable safeguards and, in consultation with my colleague, the Minister for the Environment, I will examine the areas where neither of these legislative codes is proving fully effective. We must try to fill this void. Already there have been preliminary discussions between officials of our respective Departments.

However, we need to do more than just strengthen the statutory measures which is just one dimension; a change in public attitudes is also required. I said in my opening speech that there has been a considerable shift in opinion towards the need to protect the architectural heritage and, perhaps, the existing Heritage Council has contributed to this. I again pay tribute to the work of Lord Killanin and the members of that council, but more needs to be done. For that reason, I have specifically provided in the Bill that the council shall, in particular, promote interest, knowledge and pride in and facilitate the appreciation and enjoyment of the national heritage. That is included in the Bill to indicate the pro-active development that is possible, not that people would say they were not sure whether they should be doing certain work. It is explicitly stated that it is the intention of the legislation that the council be asked to promote our national heritage, be active and take the lead in doing that.

Deputy Quill also referred in particular to railways. I am pleased to tell her that the definition of "works of architecture" in the Bill includes structures which are of significant engineering quality so this will bring railways within the remit of the council.

I would also like to clarify a matter raised by Deputy Quill in connection with the publication of the annual report. In the normal course I would expect that the financial report will be included in the published annual report. However, the reality is that sometimes the auditing of accounts takes time for reasons outside the control of the body in question and I would not like to see the publication of the annual report delayed as a result. The arrangements I have made in the Bill are (a) that the council must submit a report within six months of the ending of each year and that it be published and (b) that the audited accounts must be laid before each House of the Oireachtas. I believe these arrangements provide appropriate and adequate safeguards for the public interests.

I was impressed by Deputy Hugh Byrne's emphasis on the need to change attitudes towards conservation and for people to appreciate the diversity of their heritage. Indeed, he brought me on a wide and diverse tour of the heritage in his constituency with which he was familiar. Other Deputies made similar points and I made similar journeys with them.

Section 6 sets out the functions of the council, states that the councils shall, in particular, promote interest, knowledge and pride in and facilitate the appreciation and enjoyment of our national heritage. I regard this as one of the most important duties of the council.

Deputy Byrne drew my attention to the need to protect our churches and I am pleased to point out to him that under this Bill the council will be able to assist with both advice and finance in the preservation of churches of architectural merit. Also, the existing council recently organised a seminar in Dublin Castle on the subject of ecclesiastical buildings and there was a very positive response from the church authorities.

My colleague, the Minister for Tourism and Trade, Deputy Kenny, referred to the problem posed by seals for fishermen off the west coast. The position is that seals are a protected species under the Wildlife Act, 1976 and it is an offence to injure them except under licence. He also referred to the request made in the Seanad to have genealogical records brought within the aegis of this Bill. As I promised, my officials met with members of the council of the Irish genealogical organisations and, before Committee Stage, I will consider the report of that meeting presented by my officials. However, the amendments I made will ensure that genealogical records will come under the definition of "heritage objects" in the Bill and that is one sense in which they are covered.

Deputy Gregory was concerned that the Wildlife Standing Committee of the council would be weighted in favour of the field sports fraternity and Deputy Ferris was anxious that it would be weighted to take account of that fraternity. I appreciate bodies of expertise who may wish to forward names for inclusion on the Heritage Council, but ultimately I must take responsibility for putting forward the names of people who have a balanced approach. As other Deputies said, a mixture of expertise, commitment, and practicality and a sense of being able to transcend any one narrow concern for the general concern are the requirements I will be seeking in nominating members of the council.

Deputy Gregory criticised the former wildlife advisory council for not publicising its activities. Under the Bill, the Heritage Council will be required to publish an annual report not later than six months after the end of the relevant year and such a report will, of course, cover all the activities of the council including those of the Wildlife Standing Committee. In fairness to the outgoing non-statutory Heritage Council that became almost, in another form, the wildlife council, its position was unusual. The future relationship in which the statutory Heritage Council will publish a report that will include the functions and workings of the committee is an open and transparent process.

Deputy Michael Kitt referred to a difficulty which may arise when there is a doubt as to who owns the remains of an old church situated in a graveyard. The county council may own the graveyard but may be unsure as to who owns the church. I found that quite a poetic problem; it is a question that is asked in a different way in circles other than about property. He asked if the Heritage Council could take over the ownership of, say, a monument. Under an amendment which I will introduce on Committee Stage, the council will be entitled to acquire property but only in accordance with any directions given by me in consultation with the Minister for Finance to the council. While I do not wish to anticipate those directions, I do not envisage the Heritage Council involving itself in the acquisition of monuments of this nature. In regard to Deputy Gallagher's question, I will change the property owning functions of the council on Committee Stage by way of amendment and in accordance with the Programme for Government.

Deputy Browne queried the procedure in section 10 which provides that in circumstances in which a public authority, contrary to the wishes of the Heritage Council and the Minister, wish to carry our works to a heritage buildings in its ownership, the Government could be asked to decide the issue. It is useful to understand this mechanism. Where there is a conflict between the requirements of the public authority and the desire to conserve — say, where the costs of meetings the Heritage Council's requirements would be enormous — the authority should be given the opportunity of putting its case before Government for ultimate decision, but I hope this would be a very rare occurence. Deputy Browne also raised the question of fees which are provided for in section 23, but he misunderstands the position. If a person finds an artefact which may be of archaeological importance, he or she should report it to the National Museum who will investigate the matter. There will be no cost to the person who reported the find, neither will there be a charge by the Heritage Council for advice given by it to persons or organisations. That is as it should be. Why should we do anything other than assist and promote responsibility?

The provision in section 23 allows for an exceptional case where the council, because of the expertise at its disposal, undertakes a detailed project in a consultative capacity. There may never be a need to avail of this provision, but it is wise to insert it in the legislation. Deputy Brendan Smith hoped the council would give due recognition to the role of local authorities and voluntary community groups. I share this hope and introduced an amendment in the Seanad making it absolutely clear that the council will be free to support local authorities in their work in caring for our heritage.

I wish to refer to a point made by many Deputies but stressed by Deputy de Valera, whom I congratulate on being appointed spokesperson in this area. I look forward to working with her in advancing an area of mutual concern to us both. Deputy Deasy referred to the many Departments involved in heritage matters and wondered if the functions would be amalgamated. The Bill is not concerned with management, it is primarily concerned with policy formation. While the Heritage Council will have a direct relationship with me as Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, it will also provide advice on heritage matters to all Ministers. In this way the council will play an important co-ordinating role.

Deputy Killeen asked a question regarding the provision in section 12 to prohibit the council accepting a gift of land. This provision was inserted as a consequence of the earlier decision outlining that the council would not be permitted to acquire or hold land. I will introduce an amendment on Committee Stage to provide the council with the necessary powers to acquire and hold lands subject to any direction given to it by me, in consultation with the Minister for Finance. I will also introduce a consequential amendment to section 12 to allow the council to accept gifts of lands on similar conditions.

I join Deputy Killeen and others in acknowledging the debt we owe to landowners in counties Clare, Galway and elsewhere who have shown a genuine concern for the environment and archaeological features and who have ensured that much of our countryside remains relatively unspoiled. My colleague, the Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Taylor, will shortly introduce legislation on occupiers' liability. Because of a lack of public consciousness and awareness in the past we lost some of our heritage. However, much of it has been retained because of the responsibility of people, often without assistance, and even when public awareness was not as developed as it is now. There is now greater public awareness about our heritage but people on whose lands monuments and so on are found must be treated properly.

There are two sets of rights involved in this regard. There is a right in regard to possession but, equally, there is a right to one's heritage even if one does not own property or land. It would be against the nature of this Republic if a person was distracted in gaining access to something which is part of our heritage. We must respond sensitively but at the same time we must ensure that we do not allow foolish confrontation which would obstruct us in reaching an accommodation in respect of the management of our heritage, access to finds and our law. This will be difficult to achieve but possible if we approach it positively. We must co-operate in an effort to solve problems that may arise.

Deputy Killeen also referred to works at the Cliffs of Moher and said he would be interested to know whether An Comhairle Oidhreachta could adjudicate on such contentious issues. While An Chomhairle will have an advisory role on many matters the only area where its role will approach that of adjudication will be in relation to heritage buildings owned by a public authority, as provided for in section 10 of the Bill.

Deputy Dukes criticised the proposed composition of the council and alleged that it would be totally under the control of the Minister. He had reservations about me in particular, but they were offered with good humour, and matters change. I am changing the position whereby the National Heritage Council is a non-statutory body directly under the control of the Minister to that of a statutory body at arm's length from the Minister. Through this and other legislation people will be aware of the philosophy I am following in the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, namely, that the Arts Council and others should operate with autonomy at arm's length from me and without interference in their daily work. My responsibility relates to the policy and provisions. When Deputy Dukes comes to mature consideration on this he will agree that the proposed change is a good one and serves the principle of autonomy.

I am sure he would agree now.

Much of the work of An Chomhairle will be carried out by the four standing committees. I will appoint only three members to each committee who will almost certainly make up a minority of those committees. I neither sought nor would want any more influence on such specialist committees.

In regard to section 10 and the question of Longford Courthouse, the Bill will provide a framework in which such issues can be dealt with in the future but how is the problem to be resolved as it involves Departments, heritage issues and local authorities? The procedure is that the local authority would be bound to consult the heritage council who would then present an objective assessment of the value of the property in question and enable the issue to be resolved. That is the way such an issue will be dealt with when the legislation is enacted.

I agree with the view of the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy De Rossa, about the need to present our history in an objective manner. He made the point that presentation of heritage could either be tendentious or objective. The essential purpose of interpretation is to open minds to new ideas, to provoke thought and to empower people to make their own discoveries. I can think of no time when this was more important. If we are to make progress we must accept there are not only different versions of different stories. The image we should have is of a tapestry with many colours. We must realise that using portions of history to offer single tendentious versions is not constructive towards the best interests of our heritage being enjoyed or our future on this island.

Deputy Sargent also referred to the role of the Heritage Council in planning and I have covered most of the points he raised. I agree with him that the council should take note of the wider implications of developments and not consider buildings and sites in a narrow context. I would expect the Council to see the importance of getting involved in this way and influencing the preparation of development plans.

As I listened to Deputy Costello's contribution today I thought again of the urgent need for local authorities to take account of the spirit of the legislation. They know this legislation is not being delayed. They know what most of its procedures will entail if it is enacted. Why should they not take that as the model for action in the interim? It is unhelpful if, as has been described in the House today, sections are operating almost autonomously. Accidents or even serious errors of judgement could occur in relation to our heritage in the interim. I urge people to prepare for the legislation. Legislation is one thing but in the different organisations there will have to be better internal consultation to ensure we lose nothing even in the interim.

Deputy Sargent also referred, as did a number of Deputies today, to the national heritage areas. The Office of Public Works has published lists and maps of areas to be accorded this status and statutory protection for such areas will be provided in an amendment to the Wildlife Bill which I hope to introduce in 1995. I take the point made by Deputies today in relation to closely examining such consultation procedures, as have been announced. Work is also proceeding in my Department on arrangements to transpose the habitats directive into Irish law.

As I indicated earlier, I intend to introduce an amendment on Committee Stage to enable the Heritage Council to acquire and hold land and buildings subjects to any directions given to it by me in consultation with the Minister for Finance. Many Deputies raised this matter and I am glad to say we are at one on this. This amendment will improve the Bill.

I will also introduce an amendment which will require the Commissioners of Public Works to carry out their functions under a number of statutes relatting to heritage, under my supervision and direction and they will be required to supply me with the relevant information. In this regard Deputy Gallagher referred to the precise commitment in the Government programme. I will use the committee system to bring forward amendments to advance its achievement. People will know exactly where policy administration functions, annual work programmes and responsibilities lie. We will then be able to proceed in an orderly manner.

Since February 1993, as Deputies will be aware, policy formulation of heritage matters has been my responsibility. It is very desirable that this principle be embodied in legislation and the amendments which I will introduce are in accordance with the policy agreement A Government of Renewal. In view of the enlarged scope of the Bill with such amendments, I propose to alter its title to the "Heritage Bill, 1995". Deputies will have an opportunity to discuss these and other amendments on Committee and Report Stage.

Deputy Costello referred to the question of cruelty to animals and spoke of fox hunting, badger baiting and cock fighting. While legislation on these issues is a matter for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry, enforcement of the law is a matter for the Garda. However, it would be open to the Heritage Council to address any such issue and to make recommendations which I would be happy to pass on to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry. I share Deputy Costello's revulsion for the practices he described. I am grateful to him also for drawing my attention to the position in relation to Sean McDermott Street. Discussions are taking place between my Department and the Department of the Environment to decide what can best be done in relation to the Planning Acts, the National Monuments Acts and the area in between. The wrong way to go about it is to deal with the consequences where a problem was dealt with under one item of legislation only to find that other legislation might have indicated another direction. We have to find an anticipatory mechanism for this.

Deputy Costello referred also to the archaeology of Dublin. I share his views. He referred to an urban archaeology report for Dublin which was prepared a few years ago. Further work needs to be done here to refine the information and to pinpoint areas of particular significance. The report indicated the possibilities once the procedures are in place. He referred also to Office of Public Works carrying out architectural inventories. I will examine most of these points and see whether they can be advanced.

I have dealt with the issue of the dangerous buildings section and whether it is quicker to demolish a buildings rather than to put up batons to protect it. The points made are not lost.

Deputy de Valera, whom I have congratulated on her appointment, asked about the role of local groups. I will have no difficulty in dealing with these on Committee Stage. I have said that in fact "they shall co-operate". It is urged in the legislation. She mentioned the question of landowners a matter to which I have referred already, which is affected by other legislation. She also referred to the functions of the council. I can assure her that funding for 1995 will be at a greater level than that provided in 1994. We are moving in the right direction.

Deputy Crawford spoke eloquently of the wish of local groups to become involved. That is a very good idea. What came across in the debate was the desire of local groups to work with educational groups. Deputy Lawlor stressed the importance of our waterways and referred to a corridor study, on the urban stretch of the Grand Canal which I have already published. The first meeting of the working group was held yesterday. It is only when the canal is integrated as part of the life of the local community that its possibilities can be realised. That is one of the reasons the study has been given these terms of reference. The task force recommended in the study to which Deputy Lawlor referred has been appointed by me and its first meeting was held yesterday. I hope to commission a corridor study for a similar stretch of the Royal Canal in the next month or so.

The Deputy also spoke about the proposed Liffey Valley Park. Meetings were requested on this matter by Deputies Lawlor and Burton and other Deputies and it was suggested that I consider possibilities in that area. As I said in answer to a parliamentary question, I asked the Office of Public Works to finalise the acquisition of a large tract of land in the area which is at present for sale. I have told it to see if it can complete the acquisition, which I suggested was appropriate having met representatives of the local people. I am very sympathetic to considering other possibilities in this area because it is under considerable residential pressure.

Deputy Connor sought an integrated approach to heritage and said that the National Museum should be brought within the remit of the Heritage Council. I have already answered that point. It is not excluded from policy on this matter. I am dealing with the management of the museum in separate legislation — we will all become familiar with these legislative instruments. In this Bill I am bringing all heritage matters together in terms of general policy. The Heritage Council will integrate heritage policy. However, it is necessary to decentralise management, and this is what I am doing in the proposed museums and libraries Bill. While policy will be integrated I am designating management which will be operated over a period of years, with the appointment of people such as a director of policy to implement the measures. Those structures will bring the council into the next century.

The Deputy also wants the council to be in total control of spending European money. Funds from Europe under the Operational Programme for Tourism are a matter for the Department of Tourism and Trade in the first instance. It would be unreasonable that the Heritage Council should have a determining position in terms of all such funds. Questions are put to me occasionally about this matter. When the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht was brought into existence it was my personal wish that it would have a separate operational programme. However, as matters were advanced at Government and European level, that was not possible. Funding of many of these areas comes under the Gaeltacht programme — for example, on the employment side — and others come under tourism.

People frequently ask me about the balance between the tourism and the culture and heritage side. The tourism side is much richer than the culture and heritage side. The projects I assist relate to heritage and indigenous relationships such as the relationship of the institution to heritage at home. The tourism side — I would direct people's attention to this — is visitor oriented. It deals with spending money on projects in which the visitor component is the predominant feature. That is the essential distinction between the two sides. It is important that these matters are cleared up and it is my intention to do so.

Deputy Connor asked that, in the event of changes being made, there should be a possibility of appeal on economic as well as scientific grounds. I invite the Deputy to wait until the Bill is published, but I warn that the suggestion is fraught with danger. To put an economic or social condition on a scientific aspect in a Bill would be a complex matter. However, I think it is reasonable to return to this matter when the Bill is published.

The Deputy asked that I consider the question of monuments damaged by the elements. He spoke about part of a tower that had been damaged in recent times. The legal position is that the Office of Public Works can spend money only on monuments in State ownership or guardianship. In the case mentioned by Deputy Connor the Office of Public Works could either acquire the monument or assume guardianship of it to carry out the work required. One problem would be that the State would be responsible for the monument in perpetuity and this issue would have to be considered by way of amending legislation.

Deputy Gallagher requested that I clarify the relationship between my Department, the Office of Public Works and the Heritage Council and I hope I have done that. However, if further clarification is necessary it will be forthcoming. He also asked that the public be made aware of who they are dealing with in terms of each function. He said that amendments will be introduced on Committee Stage, to which he is looking forward. He welcomed the new relationship between the Office of Public Works and my Department which will clarify where responsibility lies in terms of certain issues. Responsibility will lie with me but the Office of Public Works will, for the time being at least, continue to be an implementing agency for policy.

The Deputy will be aware that the Programme for Government provides that the Office of Public Works will be restructured on a phased basis. It will take a little time to complete this part of the programme but I will ensure that it is done as quickly as possible to remove any confusion in the minds of the public. There will also be discussions with the staff and their representatives so that the Government's intentions are achieved as quickly and easily as possible. The main role of the Heritage Council will be to advise me on policy matters.

Deputy McGahon — and other Deputies — referred to the Lusitania. As I explained to the Dáil last evening, these issues are complex. I have made an order which is the first step to ensure there will be no unauthorised dives and no tempering with the wreck. The question of ownership is complex and relates to the vessel and the property on it, which raises issues of succession. I may take further measures, in the short term if necessary, to secure the safety of the objects. There is the further issue of property which would be of benefit to the Irish public, for example, the Hugh Lane paintings and so on. These matters have been progressed with the Department of Justice and the Garda Síochána. It is my intention to seek to recover all items that have been improperly removed.

I do not agree with Deputy McGahon that it is a case of finders keepers. I abolished treasure trove under previous legislation, but if I find that any item which would benefit the Irish people has been improperly taken I will introduce measures to ensure they are speedily returned. I have no intention of mitigating any of the considerable sanctions for breaches of the order I have made but will seek to implement them.

I am aware that shortly there will be an address to the Houses of the Oireachtas on the diaspora. We are preparing to recall the famine — it is very difficult to define this — and it is appropriate to remember that the heritage we are seeking to protect, develop and encourage an interest in is the property not only of people living on this island but also of our diaspora. If we can secure funding to make that a component of the way in which we remember the famine then it will have possibilities for the future.

I am pleased that this legislation includes a provision on gender equality. As in the case of the Broadcasting Authority, half the members of the council will be men. This is in anticipation of the overwhelming rush towards gender equality in the future.

Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a gabhháil leis na Teachtaí uilig a labhair as ucht an méid oibre a chuir said isteach agus, go h-áirithe, chomh h-údarásach is a labhair siad ar an mBille seo. Ba chúis sásaimh domsa éisteacht leis na Teachtaí sin agus is léir dom go bhfuil an-chur amach agus eolas acu i ndóigh leis na nithí atá faoi chaibidil anseo: stair agus litríocht chomharthaí a gcontaetha féin san áireamh. Is léir freisin go bhfuil suim mór léirithe acu i gcaomhnú na hoidhreachta áras atá againn. Is dúsláin thar na bearta domsa mar Aire dul i ngl-eic leis an tuairimí atá nochtaithe ag na Teachtaí agus iarracht a dhéanamh a gcuid mianta agus a gcuid moltaí a chur i gcrích. Déanfaidh mé seo agus tar éis an Bille seo a bheith réitithe — agus na nithe éagsula eile atá idir lámha agam a bheith churtha i gcrích — beidh structúr níos fear againn go léir chun ár n-oidhr-eacht a chaomhnú sna blianta atá romhainn.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Next Wednesday, subject to agreement by the Whips.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 1 February 1995.
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