Vol. 449 No. 1
4 Mr. Cullen asked the Taoiseach the action, if any, he intends to take regarding the leaking of confidential budgetary information in advance of the 1995 Budget; his views on whether cabinet confidentiality was breached; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3206/95]
I deplore the leaking of material on the budget. I have asked the head of each relevant Department or office to carry out an internal investigation into the leaking of budget material which occurred recently. The investigations are being co-ordinated by the Secretary of the Department of Finance.I have asked that a critical part of these investigations should be the recommendation of mechanisms designed to avoid the recurrence of the incidents we have just experienced.
I would like to stress that I would welcome a more open approach to budgetary information in the future with less emphasis on secrecy and greater emphasis on the provision of better information to the public on the choices that have to be made.
Does Ruairí agree?
However, any rules concerning confidentiality that exist now or in the future must be abided by. I believe that the budget introduced by the Minister for Finance last Wednesday was an excellent one and focused on the priorities facing this country at the present time. It was a budget which has shown — by the political agreement between the three parties in Government — that the parties in Government can work together to produce a coherent response to these issues.
For the record, dealing with budgetary leaks, it is important to note that there were substantial leaks of confidential budgetary material in the past when both of the Opposition parties, Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats, were in office.
For example, in 1990, with a Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrat Government, the "Morning Ireland" programme, eight hours before the Minister's budget speech carried a leaked report, with specific, detailed and accurate information on seven items, including the new top rate of income tax, the new VAT rate, the increase in the standard income tax band, the increase in social welfare payments and the changes in PRSI.
In another broadcast RTE announced, again accurately, that there would be no increases in excise rates in the budget on the so called "old reliables", but that unleaded petrol would be cut by 5 pence a gallon.
In 1994, when Deputy Bertie Ahern was Minister for Finance, in the "Morning Ireland" programme, eight hours before the budget speech, a leak was given containing 15 items, including the widening of the standard income tax band, the abolition of the income levy, the exact rate of increase in the child allowance, the precise change to residential property tax, the precise details of changes in mortgage interest and VHI relief, a £100 million fund for low interest loans, and the fact that workers on low incomes would be exempt from health, employment and training levies.
Earlier, RTE also reported that social welfare rates were to be increased by 3 per cent.
Furthermore, also in 1994, two days before the budget, The Irish Times carried a front page lead story, in particular on the abolition of the 1 per cent income levy. Also the Irish Independent, over two days, carried detailed page one stories which leaked specific items from the budget on the residential property tax changes and child benefit increases.
So it is quite clear that a pattern of leaks of sensitive budget information had been established long before this Government came into office. I have made inquiries into how these leaks from the previous Government were dealt with. I understand there is no record of any investigation undertaken by the then Ministers for Finance into the extensive leaks which took place either in 1990 or in 1994.
Stephen Collins, a respected political commentator with the Sunday Press made some relevant observations last Sunday about the hypocrisy of Opposition politicians and the media over these leaks. He said:
A great deal of comment on this, both by Opposition politicians and the media, has been hypocritical in the extreme.
For a start, this is not the first year of major budget leaks. Such leaks have been a feature of political life for almost a decade.
Mr. Collins goes on to say:
There may be some excuse for Opposition TDs trying to make a bit of political capital out of Budget leaks, regardless of their own record on the matter, the wave of indignation in the media at the leaks is baffling.
Perhaps the most important lesson all parties can learn from this experience is that we need to design a totally new approach to the annual budget process. I expect the Secretary of the Department of Finance, and his colleague secretaries, to now bring forward urgently recommendations for Government to do just that.
Do not embarrass Stephen Collins.
However belatedly, I am glad the Taoiseach seems to appreciate the gravity of what has occurred. As Taoiseach does he accept ultimate responsibility for what happened in this debacle? In spite of the litany which he read out, will he accept that never before was the Exchequer borrowing requirement or the current budget deficit figure made available in advance of a budget? With regard to the resignation of the former Minister of State, Deputy Hogan, did he consult with the Tánaiste or the Leader of Democratic Left and, in particular, did he discuss the matter with the Minister for Finance?If so, did the Minister for Finance, offer any support for Deputy Hogan as his Minister of State?
Deputy Cullen would be better occupied asking Deputy Ahern why he did not initiate any investigation into the leaking of his budget.
Answer the question.
Does the Taoiseach accept responsibility for what has occurred or is he spreading it——
Deputy Cullen, please do not be seen to dictate to the Chair. I will call the Deputy again, if necessary, but he will not dictate to me. I am calling Deputy O'Donoghue.
Did the Deputy consult Deputy Mary Harney before he took——
When briefing material on the budget was prepared for Labour and Fine Gael Deputies can the Taoiseach tell the House who authorised these briefings, where they were printed and by whom and at what point on Wednesday last the material was distributed to Labour and Fine Gael Deputies?
Deputy Hogan, the former Minister for State, dealt with the issue of the advance and mistaken release of information to Fine Gael in regard to the budget. This was done on his authority without any request from any other party that he should do so and he has accepted, in a very honourable way, his responsibility in this matter. Information was released to the Labour Party after the Minister's budget speech had concluded.
May I ask the Taoiseach —
Order, please. Deputy Bertie Ahern.
Will the Taoiseach agree that if he had taken the issue of leaks on this year's budget more seriously — I raised the matter on Tuesday, 7 February — he could have avoided a ministerial resignation?
Deputy Ahern should examine his own conscience as to why he did not conduct any investigation into the extensive leaks of his own budget. The record shows that no investigation was carried out by the then Minister, Deputy Ahern, into last year's budget leaks. I was amazed to discover that today and I ask Deputy Ahern to explain why he did not investigate them.
The Taoiseach is paid to answer questions.
It is a sham.
There are a large number of Deputies offering and I will try to facilitate them. There is a time factor involved.
Will the Taoiseach accept that if he had not ignored the request I made last Tuesday a ministerial resignation could have been avoided?
The Deputy should examine his conscience.
The Taoiseach should examine how his people leaked the information. It never happened before. The Taoiseach instructed them but will not admit it.
When will the result of this investigation be available and will it be published? Is the Taoiseach saying that no Cabinet documents went to the Fine Gael or Labour press offices on the Tuesday evening?
I already answered the question on the issue of material to the press office on the Tuesday evening. Deputy Hogan dealt with that matter fully in his statement. He did so on his own authority and he has, in a very honourable way, accepted responsibility for the matter. I also answered the question on the issue of information to the Labour Party.
Will the Taoiseach publish the report?
Deputy O'Hanlon has been offering.
I ommitted to answer part of Deputy Brennan's question which I wish to answer. I am not yet in a position to make a definitive statement on publication of the report because it is not yet complete although it is proceeding rapidly. A great deal of progress has been made in one Department in particular and I compliment all officials involved on the speed with which the investigation is been conducted.I hope the House will understand that the findings of the report may prejudice the interests of individuals outside the House and it may not be possible for total publication of the report in view of the civil rights involved for persons outside the House. I assure the House, Ministers will give as much information as possible in response to questions and I would like answers to why previous Governments did not carry out similar investigations.
Will the Taoiseach say how many Ministers of State, five of whom are assigned to his Department, and programme managers were in possession of the contents of the budget the day before it was announced?
To the best of my knowledge, only one Minister of State would have had access to the budgetary information the day before the budget, but I will have to check if the Deputy wants specific information on that point.
The Taoiseach did not answer the question about programme managers.
The purpose of the investigation is to establish the number of people who had access to information, to what information they had access and what, if anything they did with it. The investigation is being conducted in a systematic and fair way, in marked contrast to the way this issue was ignored by both the previous Fianna Fáil-led Government and the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats Coalition.
Is this unprecedented?
When did the Taoiseach become aware that details of the budget were given to the Fine Gael Press Office? Has the Garda been called in to investigate the leaks of budgetary information from the Department of Social Welfare?
Obviously it was long after the budget that I became aware of the issue of material to the Fine Gael Press Office. It is something about which I take a serious view because even though that information was not disclosed to a third party it is clear that such information should not be disclosed outside the public service, and Deputy Hogan, in a very honourable way, has accepted responsibility for that matter. The social welfare inquiry has proceeded rapidly and I understand it is at a very advanced stage. It has demonstrated quite clearly that the Minister, Minister of State and political advisers were not involved. A definite line of inquiry, including admissions of responsibility, has been achieved to date in terms of people who were not acting out of political motivation and had no political involvement that I know of.
Has anybody been dismissed from office or tendered their resignation as a result of the leaks?
The investigations are not complete and it is a matter for the Minister concerned to make a decision on that matter. I believe that some of the people concerned freely admitted what happened, which obviously facilitated the inquiry considerably, and by so doing removed the possible risk of suspicion attaching to others. In consideration of any diciplinary course that might be appropriate due account should be taken of the fact that if the persons concerned had not been honest in answering questions a great more difficulty might have been unjustly caused for others.
On a point of order——
Deputy, please, I was on my feet about to make an announcement to the House. As the House will observe the time for dealing with Taoiseach's questions is exhausted. I propose to bring these questions to a close quickly. I observe certain Members rising and I will hear Deputy Tom Kitt, Deputy O'Rourke, Deputy Harney and a final question from Deputy Cullen.
Did the Taoiseach have discussions with the leaders of the other political parties in Government, Deputies Spring and De Rossa, on whether they gave a directive on the issue of leaks? The Taoiseach compared these leaks with leaks in the past, but these were floods of information compared to what happened in the past. The Taoiseach talked about an investigation at a particular level. Did he have discussions with the leaders of the other parties involved and what are the results of those discussions in terms of authorisations for the leaks?
I have had numerous ongoing discussion with the leaders of the other two parties in Government about this and every other relevant matter and I am quite confident that they were not involved in any way in authorising the release of information in an irregular manner. I stress that the investigation will be a thorough and full one and is in marked contrast to the lax and irresponsible attitude of the Fianna Fáil Party in Government who did not bother to investigate extensive leaks.
It turned a blind eye to them.
Will the Taoiseach include in the remit of the investigation the mysterious break-in to the office of Minister of State, Deputy Durkan, which was widely reported? In his position as Leader of Fine Gael, is the Taoiseach acting in a cowardly fashion in hiding behind Deputy Phil Hogan?
The Minister of State, Deputy Durkan has established that there was no information of a sensitive budgetary kind in his office.
It is rather mysterious.
The investigation of that break-in is a matter for the Garda. Deputies opposite should understand that Fine Gael believes that accountability means responsibility. This is in marked contrast to the record of Fianna Fáil in Government——
The Taoiseach acted in a cowardly fashion.
——when no Minister took responsibility for the beef tribunal issue, for passports for sale or for the position in regard to Arcon.
What wrongdoing was done in regard to Arcon?
It is notable when Fianna Fáil is in office that no Minister takes responsibility for mistakes of any kind.
On the beef tribunal, the Taoiseach might be aware of the contributions to the Fine Gael national collection. Did he find the books yet?
Given the significance of what the Taoiseach said about the admission by an official or officials at the Department of Social Welfare to leaking this information and the Taoiseach's commitment to openness and accountability, why did he not give that information when he replied to this question?
Exactly.
Because the investigation is not fully completed.
What do you know?
It has been established that the document was leaked to a third party outside the Department and that the third party gave the document to someone else. However, the final link in the chain——
You are missing a link all right.
——whereby that document found its way to the newspaper has not been established. It is appropriate not to make a statement on this matter until the investigation is fully completed.
The Taoiseach made no reference to it.
The reason I did not include it in my original reply is that my original reply was intended to be general in nature. I am willing to give this information in response to the supplementary question put by Deputy Harney.
The Taoiseach's answer to the first question was not specific.
Did the Taoiseach institute an investigation into this serious breach of security in accordance with the Government procedure instructions?
Are they the instructions which Fianna Fáil ignored in 1994?
These instructions state that a Garda investigation should be instituted immediately. Has the Taoiseach done that?
Deputy Dermot Ahern should address his question to Deputy Bertie Ahern and ask him why he did not call in the Garda to investigate the leak in 1994.
You are in Government now.
Last week's leak was different, and the Taoiseach knows that. Fianna Fáil never transferred data to its offices.
The leaks which took place when Fianna Fáil was in office were extensive but Deputy Bertie Ahern took no responsibility for them.
Answer the question.
This is entirely consistent with the attitude of Fianna Fáil in Government and it explains why it is now in Opposition. That party is unwilling to accept the responsibilities of office.
Of what wrong is the Taoiseach accusing us?
Order.
On a point of order——
I will hear no point of order now, Deputy.
Of what wrong is the Taoiseach accusing us?
I asked a question for a second time and the question has not been answered.
If the Deputy is dissatisfied with the Taoiseach's reply——
I am extremely dissatisfied with it.
——he has many remedies.
I have never witnessed the likes of this during my eight years in this House.
Due to the interruptions I am not clear on whether the Taoiseach said there was absolutely nothing sensitive in Deputy Durkan's drawers.
It is very mysterious.
Is that what one would call a red herring.
I call Deputy Cullen for a brief and relevant final question.
With regard to the internal investigation, is it an investigation of officials by officials or an investigation by officials of political leaks? Does it extend to Government agencies, for example, the Government Information Services? With specific reference to the Tuesday night, who instructed Deputy Hogan to give the budget information to the Fine Gael press office? Were any of the Taoiseach's staff, Fine Gael Ministers or other members of the Cabinet aware of this leak or, specifically, were any of them party to the decision?
The Leader of Fine Gael did.
No one instructed Deputy Hogan to do what he did; he did this on his own initiative and he has taken responsibility for it. Here we have an unparalleled example of hypocrisy by Fianna Fáil which allowed leaks to take place when it was in Government without even bothering to investigate them and who, because it can now think of nothing better to say in the House, is trying to make a fuss about leaks under this Government.
The Taoiseach made a fuss about them.
Any questions about budget leaks which Fianna Fáil has should be directed——
Answer my question.
——to Deputy Ahern and Deputy Reynolds who did not bother to investigate the leaks which took place when they were in Government.
The Taoiseach should at least answer my question.
The House shall now deal with priority questions.
We never sent them to our press office.
The Taoiseach is a coward, and he knows it.
May I——
I have given Deputy Cullen and other Deputies quite some latitude on this and related matters.
I appreciate that——
Fianna Fáil should ask Deputy Doherty for advice about the investigation of leaks.
