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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Feb 1995

Vol. 449 No. 2

Order of Business.

It is proposed to take item No. 5. Private Members' Business shall be No. 11.

This side of the House welcomes the apparent progress achieved yesterday by the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs on the draft framework document. Would the Taoiseach confirm that one outstanding matter is specification of the exact changes the British Government will make by amending or repealing the Government of Ireland Act, 1920? Bearing in mind that there will be a further meeting tomorrow to tidy up issues and engage in final clarifications, would the Taoiseach ensure that the British Government appreciates that reciprocal change must reflect the same principles and not leave intact any British territorial claim to jurisdiction regardless of consent?

I have given the Deputy quite some latitude. I am not at all satisfied that the matter, though very important, is appropriate to the Order of Business.

I too would like to say how much I welcome the obvious progress made yesterday by the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. I am optimistic that the document will be fair and balanced. In advance of its publication, would the Taoiseach confirm that he and the Government will use every opportunity, indeed seek out opportunities, through the media and otherwise, to try to allay the fears of the Unionist community? I urge the Government to seek as many opportunities as possible to allay those fears before the publication of the document.

Speeches are not appropriate at this time.

I appreciate that I am trespassing on your order by answering any of these six questions. Nonetheless, I look forward to meeting both Opposition Leaders on Friday next, when I will give them a somewhat fuller briefing on progress than it is possible for me to give in circumstances like these. I pay tribute to the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and his officials for all the work they have done. As has been said, considerable progress was made yesterday. A number of difficult issues remain, but there is constant, steady progress accompanied by much hard work on all sides. This process of preparing the framework document dates back a long way, with all of the parties in this House having been involved, in one way or another.

I will not be drawn into answering specific questions raised by the Leader of Fianna Fáil, Deputy Bertie Ahern. All I will say is that the document will be balanced and fair to all. There is nothing in it for anyone to fear and it will form a framework for discussion. Every party with concerns or interests to promote will have an opportunity to promote or protect those interests within the discussions that will flow from the document, so that there is no ground for any fear. I would describe this as a positive "sum game", a circumstance in which everybody can gain from the dynamic that will be created by reconciliation of the two communities in Northern Ireland.

A Cheann Comhairle, on procedure——

Let us not have a continuation of the matter. I have allowed some latitude having regard to the circumstances prevailing but let that be the end of it.

I want to ask the Taoiseach a procedural question. Would he confirm that the detailed constitutional proposals on both sides will be issued at the same time as the framework document?

Sorry, I will not become involved in specifics of that type.

It is a procedural question.

I will not become involved in detailed procedural questions either. I consider that appropriate since I have offered a briefing to the Opposition parties, something that was not forthcoming a few months ago——

I know it is true because I was in Deputy Bertie Ahern's position a few months ago. It would be better if Deputies Bertie Ahern and Harney would allow me to brief them, as I have agreed to do, on Friday next and in so far as is possible, I will answer their questions then. It may not be possible for me, even then, to provide full answers to some of their questions and I hope they will understand that. However, I appreciate the constructive approach being adopted by both Deputies Bertie Ahern and Harney.

In the Taoiseach's consideration prior to the meeting on Friday next — while welcoming the progress that has been made — since he emphasised the discussion nature of this framework document, how does he envisage discussion taking place within this Republic between the parties as well as talks within the Northern Ireland context between the parties there?

There is a tendency to debate this matter. I will hear no more of it now.

On a matter of procedure——

Not on that subject, Deputy. Is there any other matter relevant to the Order of Business?

Arising from the recent decision of An Bord Pleanála on Luggala, I ask the Taoiseach if the Government will immediately move to halt the development at Mullaghmore and prevent the further squandering of public moneys.

I am sure Deputy Quill can pursue that matter in a more appropriate way and at a more appropriate time.

A Cheann Comhairle, I attempted to raise this matter yesterday——

Deputy Quill knows the procedure at this time very well.

——by way of Private Notice Question, but it was ruled out of order. I seek the Chair's advice as to how I might best raise this very important matter.

Deputy, my office is at your disposal.

Will the Taoiseach clarify when a decision will be taken on the funding for Irish Steel and if the £15 million——

That matter does not arise now.

Is the continued delay in this matter a signal of dissension within the Government?

A question might be more appropriate, as the Deputy knows.

A Cheann Comhairle, a main concern in the harbour area——

I now call Deputy Martin.

A Cheann Comhairle——

Deputy Ahern, resume your set forthwith.

Deputy Ahern should read Question No. 6 on the Order Paper.

A Cheann Comhairle, as you are aware——

Deputy Ahern, resume your seat or leave the House.

Given the widespread concern, particularly in educational circles about the lack of debate in relation to third level education, promised legislation in relation to the governance of universities Bill and the welcome by the Minister for Education for the need for a debate, will the Taoiseach agree to give Government time for a full debate on the de Buitléir report on the third level grants system?

Is the Deputy referring specifically to promised legislation?

I refer to the governance of universities Bill, it is related to the legislation.

I am heartened by the anxiety of Fianna Fáil Deputies to discuss the de Buitléir report in view of the fact that they refused to publish it for several months and it was not published until they had left office. Their enthusiasm for discussing it now is something I heartily applaud.

You published it.

I hope it will be possible for a discussion to take place on this report at the Select Committee on Social Affairs when it is established. It is probably better that a discussion on a complex report of this kind would take place in a committee setting where a more detailed scrutiny would be possible.However, if the Opposition wishes to put down a motion about the matter in Private Members' time, we will be more than happy to discuss it at that time also.

We have had the same Minister for Education for the past two years and she did not do anything about the de Buitléir report.

I call Deputy Batt O'Keeffe.

We want a full debate on the matter.

Deputy, resume your seat.

That is an own goal.

(Interruptions.)

I was not a member of any previous Cabinet.

The Deputy promised too much in Cork yesterday.

Given the promise the Taoiseach made at a public meeting in Carrigaline prior to the Cork South Central by-election, is it his intention to introduce legislation to provide a temporary licence for south coast community television?

Is it promised?

I assure the Deputy that the Government will fulfil the promises made in its Programme for Government on that matter.

I want to raise a matter that concerns the Chair as much as every Member of the House, the serious problem that has arisen due to over supply of milk because of the quota system. Many farmers in the Munster area face bankruptcy because they have not received payments from their local co-ops and dairy societies. Will the Minister travel to Brussels to seek a derogation for Irish farmers to exclude an increase of 50 million gallons of milk to give our farmers an income——

That matter is not relevant now. Deputy O'Donnell is offering.

——and enable them to put bread on the table? This is a very serious matter. I have no doubt that I have the Chair's sympathy in respect of this matter.

You have. You might raise the matter in a proper fashion.

On promised legislation on refugee protection in this State, has the Government decided whether it will continue to take the previous refugee protection Bill which was on Committee Stage when the previous Administration fell. Many amendments were tabled to it. Will the Government redraft the Bill and present a new one or continue with the existing one?

The Government has decided to proceed with the existing Bill using it as a framework. Extensive amendments are proposed to it and they will be dealt with in the normal way. I hope it will be dealt with on Committee Stage as expeditiously as possible.

As I will not have another opportunity before the framework document is wrapped up, I do not believe the Taoiseach understood the point I made——

——regarding the detailed proposals for change, will the Tánaiste agree they should be taken at the same time as the framework document?I ask him to bear that in mind as it is of fundamental importance.

I will talk to the Deputy on Friday.

Deputy Ahern should be very careful about making gratuitous remarks of that kind. I am well aware of what he is talking about.

The Taoiseach will not answer a question on it.

I am equally well aware that in an international negotiation of this kind where one is seeking to protect one's national interests and to ensure the settlement is balanced, answering extempore questions of the kind proposed by Deputy Ahern is not necessarily helpful. That is why I offered Deputy Ahern and Deputy Harney a briefing on the matter.

The Taoiseach will not answer prepared questions.

But the meeting will take place tomorrow. It is no good telling us the position on Friday.

An attempt on the Order of Business to ask detailed questions about a document which is still in international negotiation is not a particularly constructive way to proceed.

A Cheann Comhairle——

Deputy Ahern, please.

A Cheann Comhairle, you allowed the Taoiseach to reply, surely I am allowed to answer?

Deputy Ahern, please.

I asked the Taoiseach if he will give us a briefing on the matter today——

I ruled earlier that there should be no further comment on this delicate matter and the Chair's rulings in these areas should be respected by both sides of the House.

Can the Taoiseach spell the word "accountability"?

I understand this is a matter of forthcoming legislation and I apreciate its delicacy. Will the Taoiseach, having acknowledged the part played by different parties in this House, include myself as representative of the Green Party and Deputy Foxe as representative for the Independents in the consultations on the framework document?

Before proceeding further I wish to raise a matter——

I trust it is not a reference to a matter I strictly ruled on.

Regarding the essential nature of the date of the meeting, I ask that a briefing be given today before the conclusion of discussions rather than on Friday.

I am proceeding now to item No. 5.

It is essential that that be done.

There are obvious problems here in attempting to——

I am not in control. I seek to rule on certain matters.

On a point of order, regarding the framework document, there has always been an all-party approach to it. In view of all that has been said, I ask the Taoiseach to give in on the request to have a briefing today rather than Friday so that he could have the advice of the two Opposition party Leaders in this regard. There should not be any problem with that.

It is without precedent for a Government to offer briefing of the type we have offered to the Opposition. The only time I was consulted about Northern Ireland by my predecessor was in regard to the terms of reference for the forum. There was no routine briefing when I was Leader of the Opposition. The Opposition should appreciate that. Furthermore, the meeting tomorrow is simply another comparatively routine meeting between officials and there will be further meetings.There is no particular significance in tomorrow's meeting over and above any other meeting. An arrangement for briefing the Opposition Leaders next Friday has been made. It is the first occasion, to my knowledge, that the Taoiseach has briefed the Opposition. If the Opposition wants to play politics there is——

That is not fair. It is anything but true. We have been totally responsible in relation to it.

This is a point I will be more than willing to hear on Friday. We must recognise that questions on the Order of Business, are, by their nature, political. If it is the desire to maintain a consensus approach on the matter, then it is desirable when confidential briefing has been offered, to use that to ask questions rather than attempt to raise them on the Order of Business without notice two days before the confidential briefing.

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