James Leonard
Question:7 Mr. Leonard asked the Minister for Education when she will announce funding for the 1995 primary school building programme. [5110/95]
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Primary School Building Programme.
A sum of £21 million has been allocated for the primary building programme in 1995. This provision will be used for major projects, minor and emergency works, the provision of pre-fab classrooms and for the acquisition of sites.
As well as funding the ongoing programme of school repair and refurbishment the provision will allow the continuation of the special sanitation scheme which was introduced last year.
I am satisfied that these measures will contribute significantly to a general enhancement of primary school buildings and will expedite the elimination of substandard accommodation.
I intend to announce details shortly of the major new building projects which will be progressed in 1995.
Will the Minister give the reason for the delay in announcing the relevant allocations? Has the Minister drawn up a priority list of areas needing new schools, or schools in need of repair and, if so, will she publish same so that the boards of management will know where they stand?
I was not aware there had been a delay; of course, there was a change of Government which delayed many things slightly. A total of 118 projects are being considered and they fall within different categories of priority. Priority one refers to essential, very urgent, where the provision of additional places are urgently required or where existing accommodation needs immediate remedial action; priority two is designated as desirable and urgent, which would be serious and acknowledged but not to the same degree as priority one and, priority three, which would be desirable but not urgent. It will clearly be seen that there are projects allocated under the different ratings of priorities. Under the primary schools capital programme for 1995 there are other elements, minor and emergency grants in respect of which there is a list, as there is in the case of prefabs, another for acquisitions, which would relate to sites for gael scoileanna, all of which will proceed. We have undertaken, as I know has the INTO a survey of primary schools, analysis of which is just beginning. While expressing my thanks to the INTO for undertaking its survey I will await the final outcome of both surveys before publishing lists.
Is it the Minister's intention to publish such a list at some stage?
I do not want to promise the House that I will publish such a list. However, I can promise that the information from those surveys will be examined, following which it might be timely to come back to the House and make an announcement.
The Minister's reply indicated that £21 million has been made available for capital projects. Will she indicate how much of that has been committed to final payments and so on? Will she advise the House of the capital needs of her Department in terms of addressing the 118 applications received?
I do not have the detailed information requested by the Deputy. We identified 118 projects to be included for consideration. A total of £21 million is available for the primary building section in 1995. Work will commence on major projects, minor and emergency projects, prefabs and acquisitions. Under those headings I will indicate the projects that will proceed in 1995.
Will the Minister agree that it would create more transparency if a priority list was published and will she give a commitment in that regard? As legislation on freedom of information will be introduced, will she agree that it would be in keeping with the spirit of that if matters of this kind were published?
I indicated that the buildings have been surveyed. The Deputy referred to freedom of information, but I must be confident that the information we have is relevant and up to date. I am committed to inputting the available information. It is not a simple matter of asking people to fill in forms. When the forms are returned to the Department the information on them has be inputted to make it accessible. A unit cost study has been carried out on this and when the Deputy receives a copy of it he will realise the information was not made available to the Department in the most accessible manner. I wish to ensure that such information is made available to the Department and when it is available we will decide what we will do.
Will the Minister indicate what moneys were made available for this programme last year as compared to the £21 million made available this year? In an effort to introduce transparency into this area, will the Minister outline the total estimated cost of carrying out repairs in the schools listed in the various categories so that we may have some idea of the progress that can be made in the years ahead? Would we not then be in a position to help the Minister to secure additional resources at the Cabinet table?
It would not be practical to give a list of everything.
On what basis would it not be practical?
It would not be practical to give estimated details of every penny that will be spent on such work. I must be satisfied that I am aware of the needs in the school building programme and I asked that a survey be completed. One had not been undertaken previously. The survey has been completed and I hope it will give a fair and unbiased account of the state of school buildings. When it is considered hopefully we will be in a position to plan for the future. A total of £21 million is available this year to progress the school building project and I understand £27 million was allocated for it last year. In the last two years there has been an extraordinary increase in the amount of money invested in the primary programmes and the Department has made great inroads in this area. I am sure the Deputy is aware of projects in this area that were deferred for many years under successive Ministers. If Deputies check the position in their constituencies, they will be satisfied that the increased allocation made available to the primary sector in the past two years was spent in areas of most need. I will continue to give that programme priority and I will welcome any help members of the Opposition can offer to secure increased funding at the Cabinet table.
Will the Minister confirm that in real terms the 1995 capital allocation to primary school buildings has decreased?
I do not have as much money at my disposal for that programme this year as I had last year.
There is a decrease.
The figures were available in the Estimates and I am not being coy about this. If Members examine school building projects in their constituencies they will be assured that since I became Minister for Education there has been an extraordinary financial input into the school building programme.
We now have a new Minister for Finance.
The former Minister, Deputy O'Rourke, spent more money.
(Interruptions.)
I would be delighted to make the figures available. When I took up office I met many deputations who had met previous Ministers. Fiscal rectitude in the school building programme in 1986 and 1987 resulted in a deterioration of some school buildings. I am satisfied that inroads have been made into the school building programme in the past two years and that will continue to be the case. When information is accessible from the survey I am sure we will be able to meet the demands of the school communities in priority areas because I am committed to ensuring that not only is the quality of education improved for children in the classroom but the quality of the classrooms will also be improved. On taking up office I inherited problems of poor school buildings and a sanitation programme one would not export to the Third World.
Will the Minister indicate when the survey commenced and when it will be completed? In view of her last comment is she satisfied that money allocated to schools since she became Minister was allocated to those most in need, given that she has not drawn up a priority list?
The survey was conducted in 1994. Given the condition of the schools that qualified for funding, there can be little doubt those schools required the most urgent attention. Decisions on school funding are not made solely by the Department of Education in Marlborough Street, but with the co-operation of local school inspectors. Some Deputies have asked me to meet deputations and I have catalogues of photographs showing the horrific conditions of school buildings which have been brought to my attention. Having regard to the factual evidence in this area, the enthusiasm shown by Deputies, the co-operation of local school inspectors and the INTO, I would not say I have misspent money. One or two boards of management around the country have shown a reluctance to apply for funds. I must be satisfied that it is not just those who shout the loudest that succeed. Given the condition of the school buildings in which we have invested, I do not believe we have wasted money.
The Minister pointed out that many schools are in a poor condition. I understand the Minister announced in April last year that a survey would be undertaken and I am sure it will reveal there are appalling conditions in many schools. We are aware that is the case from the INTO survey. Will she not agree that, bearing that in mind and since less money is available this year in real terms, her priorities are wrong in regard to education? She has concentrated to some extent on the third level fees element while there is the appalling prospect of children being educated in what can only be described as slums.
The remark I made was in respect of sanitation facilities. I am sure that by the end of this year that problem will be totally eliminated in the school building programme. Regarding priorities, the cost of meeting the fee element of the free fees proposal, given the abolition of covenants for educational purposes, amounts to a total of £6 million. We are talking about £21 million. Sums of £26 million or £27 million last year and £21 million the prevoius year were spent on primary school buildings. However, I will not be satisfied until I have information from the survey and I am able to inform people in the classroom that their requirements will be met. I will continue to concentrate resources on the primary sector.
I suggest Members could help the Minister in regard to the intolerable problems in schools. We are operating in a vacuum if I cannot elicit from the Minister the total amount of money to be spent on school programmes. If the Minister were to provide that amount of money I suggest her case at Cabinet could be better made so that we would not have a reduction this year on last year's figures. If she cannot make a better case will the figure be reduced annually?
I welcome any help I can get from Members of the Opposition in putting my case in Cabinet. Information and cases brought to my attention by Deputies help us in taking decisions which are made in consultation with local communities, boards of management and the local inspectorate.
That is fire brigade action; let us have a coherent plan.
It is a matter of how the Deputy sees it. Given the position I inherited I am satisfied we are making reasonable progress. I am not satisfied that we have made sufficient progress but I will welcome any help the Deputy can offer.
What about a strategic plan?
The Deputy asked questions and he must now listen to the reply.
How much of the £21 million does the Minister intend to spend on prefabs this year? Does she consider it money badly spent in view of the fact that purpose built structures would have a much longer life?
It is proposed to spend in excess of £500,000 on prefabs. Generally prefabs are erected in areas where we are not providing a premanent school building. Where the figures justify a permanent school building we are putting in permanent structures. At times there is a case for erecting prefabs but their number is low. If offered a prefab instead of a permanent building, a community have to be assured that it is a temporary measure before giving a site on a school yard.