Vol. 450 No. 6
6 Mr. E. Byrne asked the Minister for Justice the estimated number of illegal immigrants currently living in Ireland; the proposals, if any, she has to regularise their situation; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [5288/95]
29 Mr. E. Byrne asked the Minister for Justice the progress, if any, that has been made with regard to the proposed reform of legislation in relation to non-nationals promised in the programme A Government of Renewal; the proposals, if any, she has in this regard; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [5289/95]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 6 and 29 together. The Government's programme includes a commitment to "accelerate the proposed reform of the non-nationals legislation, having regard to the Maastricht Treaty, so as to provide comprehensive legislation on the rights of non-nationals generally".
The House will recall that an interdepartmental committee was established in 1993 to examine this area with the following terms of reference:
to examine and re-state present policy and practice in relation to the admission to residence and right of work in the State of EU and non-EU nationals from the point of view of
—general aims of policy;
—clarity;
—consistency;
—efficiency of application;
—appeals mechanisms;
to examine, in particular, the transparency and efficiency of arrangements which exist for dealing with special categories of immigrant e.g. asylum seekers, refugees;
to make such recommendations as are necessary for the development of a system of treatment of immigrants which is consistent and transparent, having due regard to the commitment in respect of refugees and asylum seekers which is contained in the Programme for Government;
to make recommendations on the most feasible way of dealing with the problem of immigrants who have illegally resided in the State for considerable periods of time.
The committee has already presented its report on applications for refugee status etc. and that report formed the basis for the Refugee Bill which is currently before the House. The terms of that Bill are being examined in the light of suggestions put forward during the Second and Committee Stage debates and in the light of the Government's commitment to which I have already referred. When the Government has decided on what changes should be made arrangements for dealing with the matter will be decided by the Whips.
Since completing its report on refugees issues the interdepartmental committee has continued its examination of the remainder of its terms of reference, which include both the specific issue of immigrants who have resided illegally in the State, referred to in this question and the general question of the rights of non-nationals, referred to in Question No. 29. I expect to receive a further report from the Committee shortly dealing with these matters.
I believe that the Government's consideration and decisions on the matters should be informed by that report, especially as the committee received submissions and held meetings with individuals and agencies with an interest in these matters.
With regard to an estimate of the number of illegal immigrants currently in the State, it is very difficult to quantify the numbers involved because their presence is often unknown to the authorities. It is the nature of the situation that immigrants who are here illegally generally do what they can to conceal their presence from the authorities. In the circumstances, I am not in a position to give an estimate of the number involved.
As the Minister is not in a position to do so. I offer an estimate of 10,000 illegal immigrants. I am surprised the Minister is so shocked by this figure. It is difficult to give an accurate figure because of their illegal status. While she waits for the interdepartmental committee to present its report will the Minister offer her own view on the plight of illegal immigrants, non-EU nationals, and does she agree that they are a mirror image of Irish illegal immigrants in other countries, particularly the United States of America? Does she further agree that they are confronted with the same problems? For example, they are open to blackmail and exploitation as cheap labour and suffer poor health as they are afraid to attend doctors or hospitals, many find themselves in complicated loving relationships with Irish partners. We must regularise the position of those who have been living here for five years or more with no criminal record either here or in their country of origin. The best way to proceed would be to provide for an amnesty
It is difficult to give an estimate of the number involved. I do not know from where the Deputy got the figure of 10,000 unless — I am not being facetious — he knows them all. I do not know if the number is 5,000 or 10,000. The number of registered legal immigrants is approximately 33,000. It is appropriate that I wait for the interdepartmental committee to present its proposals. We can only give an estimate based on the number who apply for a residency or work permit or refugee status. In 1991, 31 people applied for refugee status, 39 in 1992, 91 in 1993 and 355 in 1994 when a large number of Cubans arrived in this country. They are still here. I share the Deputy's concern, as I did when I was my party's spokesperson on Foreign Affairs, about the way we treat illegal immigrants. When passed the Refugee Bill will tackle a number of the problems whereby illegal immigrants tend to find themselves in prison before being deported without any proper mechanism under which they can make their case. When the interdepartmental committee presents its report I will present proposals to the Government and, in turn, the House.
Following police raids on restaurants, building sites and other locations illegal immigrants have been speedily deported. Because we have failed to tackle this problem does the Minister agree there are many illegal immigrants who would like to pay taxes and social welfare contributions to the State and who would be first class citizens? Does she further agree that the majority of illegal immigrants would like to have their position regularised but believe that if they apply for a residency or work permit and are refused they will be summarily deported? Will the Minister agree to publish the guidelines for granting immigration visas — I have had unfortunate experiences of dealing with visa issues involving immigrants living in my constituency — so that we can see how the system works?
I can make available to the Deputy the regulations relating to the naturalisation of people here. Many people call to the Department of Justice every day looking for a copy of those regulations. People who have been in this country as an illegal immigrant for the number of years to which the Deputy referred should have the facility to apply for naturalisation. If the Deputy is talking about people who have lived here for five years, they have already fulfilled that particular requirement. People who have been illegally resident here for a number of years know that when their records are examined and all the various mechanisms of obtaining police reports, etc., have been gone through, which is a standard condition, their record will not look favourable because they arrived here illegally and have continued to stay here illegally. I assure the Deputy that I am carefully examining the backlog of cases in my Department — they were on my desk when I took office — that were not handled in previous years. I will be looking at those cases as sympathetically as I can.
Will the Minister accept that although we are adhering to our international obligations in regard to asylum seekers and refugees, there has been an absence of policy debate on the whole area of non-nationals and the third pillar of Maastricht? Will she agree that because all the policy formulation is done at intergovernmental level by the Council of Ministers there has been a lack of debate in this House or the whole area of dealing with non-nationals in the context of the removal of borders in Europe? Will she further comment on the perception over the years that because of this policy vacuum there has been an obsessively secret and xenophobic attitude in the Department of Justice to the whole issue of non-nationals which needs to be addressed in the context of the newer Europe?
I reject any implication by the Deputy that there are xenophobic officials in my Department. The officials operate the system as laid down by the regulations for them. I am sure the Deputy did not mean to be offensive to any officials in the Department of Justice.
Not at all. I was talking about the policy.
The Deputy referred to a xenophobic attitude in the Department of Justice. There is a system in place but I agree that it has been difficult to find out how the system operates. With regard to the third pillar, I met my colleagues, the other Council Ministers for Justice and Home Affairs last Thursday and Friday, to discuss a number of these issues including that of asylum seekers. There are divergent opinions among a number of the EU members. We take a particular view, because of our geographical and historical position, that other countries may not have the luxury of taking. There are also countries in Europe bordering other countries that have hundreds of thousands of immigrants coming across their borders. We do not have to face that problem but I am satisfied that when the interdepartmental committee reports to me we will see an opening up of the whole system. I hope also that we will shortly rid the Department of the backlog of applications and get the system into place whereby people will not have to wait many years for decisions to be made on their applications.
Will the Minister indicate the number of illegal immigrants who have come to the notice of the Garda? Will she indicate also the number of applications for naturalisation that have been made to her Department? Is it the Minister's intention to bring the interdepartmental report before the Dáil for discussion?
I do not have the figures with regard to the number of illegal immigrants known to the Garda. Somebody who is living here illegally usually keeps a low profile.
The number the Garda are pursuing.
If there are figures available on that I will certainly give them to the Deputy but I do not have information as to the the number of immigrants known to the Garda. There are 33,000 legal immigrants here and, as I already told the House, 355 people applied for refugee status in 1994. I do not yet have figures for 1995. In regard to the number of applications for naturalisation there is a backlog in the Department of approximately 1,000 applications for various forms of naturalisation. Not all those people would be illegal immigrants but they have fulfilled the conditions of residency, etc. Those applications are dealt with on a day-to-day basis.
I want to bring this matter to finality.
What about the interdepartmental report?
The interdepartmental report will be examined by me when it is available and any proposed changes arising from it will be brought before the House. I am not aware that the first part of the report, which has already been made available to my Department and which will form the basis of the refugee Bill, was made public because the work was still ongoing.
The Minister referred to the backlog of work on her desk when she took office. I do not understand how Fianna Fáil could have been in office for so long while achieving so little. I wish the Minister well in her task. When does she expect the interdepartmental committee to report to her?
The report is being prepared by interdepartmental officials. I cannot give the Deputy a specific time but it will be shortly.
This year or next year?
This year — very shortly.
When I referred to xenophobic tendencies earlier, I was not attributing them to officials in the Minister's Department.
I hope they were not attributed to me.
No. The point I was making reflects a tradition here and among our member states of a less than generous attitude to non-nationals and to the movement of peoples. Will the Minister agree that is the reason all the discussion on this sensitive matter is held at intergovernmental level at the Council of Ministers. Will she agree it is quite unusual for such a level of debate to be held in secret and with so little contribution from the assemblies of the member states?
We are having a statement rather than questions.
I do not know to whom Deputy O'Donnell was referring when she used the word "xenophobic". It sounded as if she was referring to the Department but we will let the matter rest. I know the Deputy did not mean to cast aspersions on anybody. The ongoing debate in Europe on the third pillar is not secret. There were many people present in the Council Chamber when we were discussing it, including many journalists. With the setting up of the new European affairs committee and the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs I would be happy to participate in a debate on this matter and listen to Members' views because it will be a major topic in the Intergovernmental Conference debates next year when Ireland holds the Presidency.
