John O'Donoghue
Question:7 Mr. O'Donoghue asked the Minister for Justice the measures, if any, she will introduce to segregate prisoners who are drug abusers from other prisoners; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [5296/95]
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Drug Abuse in Prisons.
Máirín Quill
Question:11 Miss Quill asked the Minister for Justice the proposals, if any, she is planning to introduce in order to render our prisons less amenable to the proliferation of illegal drugs for the use of inmates; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [5479/95]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 and 11 together.
In our prison system we operate a more humane regime for offenders and their visitors than exists in many other countries. There is little doubt but that in some prisons visitors are abusing visiting arrangements by passing illegal drugs on visits, and that offenders are abusing free association within the prison by passing drugs to one another.
It is important, first, to make the point that the availability of drugs is a problem for the general community and not just the prisons. Deputies will be aware that I am putting in place a strategy to tackle the wider drugs problem in the community. Success with this strategy will clearly have benefits in restricting the supply of illegal drugs not only to our prisons but also to society in general.
It would be possible to restrict the regime for prisoners in such a way as to virtually eliminate the availability of drugs in prison. That revised regime, however, would have to include severe restrictions on free association between prisoners, more frequent searches of cells and prisoners, including strip-searches, the searching of all visitors, including children, to prisons, the erection of barriers between prisoners and all visitors to prevent personal contact, even with children, and the introduction of more intrusive technology. While we will all accept that the drugs problem in prisons is a most serious one I do not believe that we would be justified in introducing so restrictive and inhumane a regime, which would punish the families and friends as well as the prisoners, and could cause irreparable harm to relationships with families, including children.
This is not to suggest that we can do nothing. Steps which are being taken to keep drugs out of the prisons include a high level of staff vigilance, closed circuit video surveillance of visits, screening of prisoners after visits and regular searches of the prisons.
I should like to draw attention again to the Department's policy document, "The Management of Offenders — A Five Year Plan", which was published in June last, which contains in chapter 13 a discussion of the problem. The document indicated that it was planned, through the medium of the departmental steering committee which is in place to implement the recommendations of the advisory committee on communicable diseases in prisons, to carry out a full review to establish how best to manage the problems of both the access to drugs and the treatment — rehabilitation of drug-addicted offenders.
The committee is active in dealing with the issue. One of the options it is considering is the establishment of drug-free units in the prisons. These units can be an effective catalyst in breaking the drug habit. The prison medical director, and other senior officials, have visited drug-free units in England and a number of prisons in the Netherlands to review drug free units there and to see how they might be adopted here. The committee is looking at the possibilities offered by controlled methadone maintenance treatment programmes.
It is also examining limited control arrangements which would help in containing the problem without making prison regimes unduly harsh. I announced in Cork recently an initiative of this kind to deal with a particular problem in Cork prison. What is happening is that small packets of drugs are being thrown over the wall of the main exercise yard from the outside where they are being collected by prisoners on exercise before staff can intercept them. To counteract this it has been decided to cover the yard with special fine mesh netting, install closed circuit TV cameras on the perimeter wall and erect a security fence outside the perimeter wall to limit unauthorised access. These measures should work for that particular problem. So far as other prisons are concerned specific, targeted measures of the same kind are also being considered.
Will the Minister accept that some prisoners who are drug abusers may not tell the prison authorities they are HIV positive, thereby creating a danger for other prisoners? In this context it is desirable that, at the very least, there would be a separate wing for prisoners who are drug abusers.
The advisory committee on communicable diseases in prisons made a number of recommendations, including video surveillance, prosecution of those who attempt to smuggle drugs and disciplinary action against prisoners found with drugs. There are special arrangements in prisons to deal with people who are HIV positive. One cannot force somebody to tell the truth when giving information as a prisoner, but every effort is made to ascertain whether a prisoner has a particular medical problem that needs special attention.
Will the Minister accept that the preferable option is for prisoners who are drug abusers to be put in separate wings?
We are considering the use of drug free units. Department officials who have examined such drug free units in England and the Netherlands will shortly put proposals to me.
Will the Minister accept, given that one-third of male prisoners in Mountjoy are IV drug users and 75 per cent of women prisoners in Mountjoy are heroin addicts, it is time to review the current system with a view to containing the problem? Will she agree it is high time this category of convict is dealt with in a focused and targeted way, if necessary, by segregation and certainly by the introduction of a detoxification programme within prisons?
I agree the existence of drugs in prisons is a matter of great concern. The problem has existed for some time and, sadly, exists in many prisons throughout the world. At present 40 per cent of all inmates in the Irish prison system are known to have a history of serious drug abuse. Many prisoners come into prisons as drug abusers, they are not there pedalling drugs. Most women prisoners also have a history of serious drug abuse. At any time up to one in eight of the 7,000-plus known drug addicts is an inmate in our prison system. I agree with Deputies — I have expressed similar concerns — we must find mechanisms to prevent drugs getting into prisons and to allow prisoners who come in with a drug abuse habit to use their time in prison to break that habit so that they will come out clean. A number of recommendations have been put forward by the Advisory Committee on Communicable Diseases in prisons such as the enhancement of video surveillance, possible prosecution of those who attempt to smuggle drugs into prison and disciplinary action against prisoners found with drugs. Those recommendations are already being acted on in our prisons.
I cannot help but smile at what is going on in Cork where a net is needed to prevent drugs being thrown over the prison wall. Presumably guns and knives may also be thrown over the wall to prisoners, which is crazy. There are enough groups talking about how to deal with the problem. It can be relatively simply solved by placing a drugs team in Mountjoy Prison and prescribing physeptone. However, that alone would not be sufficient. We would need satellite clinics, community drugs teams and an expanded Merchants Quay centre to help stabilised drug users who are sent back to the community, otherwise the problem will increase. Will the Minister agree we should stop playing games with the drugs problem? It could be easily solved by the method I mentioned.
On the Deputy's comment about drugs being thrown over prison walls, I have moved to stop that practice. It may seem a slightly frivolous action but the governor of Cork prison was delighted I made available £60,000 to cover the exercise yard in Cork prison. Sometimes simple solutions are the answer to serious problems. This may not seem a very sophisticated solution but it is one the governor assures me — I see Deputy Batt O'Keeffe from Cork nodding — will stop that point of access to drugs. On the provision of a methadone maintenance programme and the suggestion that a drugs team be placed in prisons, dealing with the people inside prison who are using drugs is one element but we also must tackle the problem of drugs getting into prisons. Without introducing an enormously strict and severe regime it is almost impossible to prevent drugs getting into prisons.
Prisoners will not need them if they are getting free drugs.
I agree with the Deputy and for that reason the methadone maintenance programme is being introduced in prisons. Some prisoners are already taking part in that programme. The Department of Health has recently issued a Protocol for agencies undertaking such treatment. I heard an interview this morning in which it was stated that there are many drug addicts who cannot gain access to methadone treatment centres. That is a matter I will discuss with the Minister for Health. When prisoners leave prison they become the responsibility of other agencies. I agree with Deputies that we have to try to get people to break the habit of drug abuse as well as to stop drugs coming into the prison.
I agree with the Minister that the drug problem in Cork prison is intolerable. Any measure to bring about a decrease in the availability of drugs — whether they be thrown over the wall or brought in by visitors — would be welcome.
Is the Minister satisfied that when people first enter prison, certain categories of prisoners should undergo medical tests? Is she also satisfied with the level of monitoring during prison visiting times? It is quite clear that, irrespective of the monitoring being carried out, drugs are being passed to prisoners and there has been a proliferation of drug abuse. Will the Minister consider far stricter searching of prisoners after visiting times?
As I said in my reply, there is a system for searching prisoners: there is a high level of staff vigilance, close circuit video surveillance of visits, screening of prisoners after visits as well as regular searches of the prison. These mechanisms have not stamped out the availability of drugs. Very often drugs are carried in the most obscure places by visitors and through various mechanisms, I will not go into detail, which the Deputies know about. Drugs are also carried in through mechanisms involving children. Without introducing a severe regime which may well harm the visitors and the children of prisoners, I think more strict camera surveillance is probably the best way of ensuring that there is minimal contact that would allow drugs to be passed to the prisoner.
On their arrival prisoners are subject to a medical——
Is that on a voluntary basis?
It is essentially on a voluntary basis but very often the prisoners do not give the full story when answering questions. It is a matter for prison officers to eventually assesss whether somebody is a drug abuser after they have come into prison.
Does the Minister agree that the vigilance and surveillance to date have not worked and have not prevented our prisons, particularly Mountjoy, from being sumps of despair, drug addiction and idleness. Does she agree with Deputy Eric Byrne's suggestion that the only way to deal with this is to segregate the categories of convicts, introduce a drugs detoxification programme and not allow the general population of the prison to integrate with that category who have problems and need rehabilitation?
We are examining the possibility of introducing drug-free units which would result in segregation.
Known drug abusers or drug users who are suspected of trying to get illegal substances into prison face a far more rigorous system during visits, they are put into specially partitioned boxes and there is special camera surveillance on them. Although every effort is made it has not stamped out the availability of drugs in prison. However, if the regime that really works and perhaps exists in other jurisdictions were brought into this House, no doubt there would be no support, for the kinds of measures that would be absolutely foolproof to prevent drugs coming in, such as strip searches, undressing babies and examining the clothes children are wearing. This would have to be done to be certain of ridding the prison of drugs.
Deputies may suggest that some of these mechanisms are necessary. I want to tackle the availability of drugs in prison as well as the problem of drug addiction. If a man or woman can beat the drug habit in prison, there is an obligation on us to ensure they have the same facilities outside to continue as drug free members of society.
In the context of prisoners using illegal drugs in prison will the Minister accept we have reached the stage where the use of illegal drugs as opposed to their possession — which is already an offence — should be an offence?
The way we treat people who abuse drugs is slightly different from the way we deal with drug peddlers. Drug abusers who come into the prison system should be given an opportunity in prison to break the habit. Such programmes are working in the prison and I would like to see them extended. Without breaking the habit of prisoners in the prison the need to bring in drugs will continue. You stop the access of drugs to prison and at the same time you stop the demand for those drugs inside prison. It will not happen overnight as the Deputy knows having been in Government. The growth of drugs availability in prison has grown and grown.
I hope some of the mechanisms already in place will begin to tackle the problem and that the mechanisms I will put in place during my term in office will help also.