Bertie Ahern
Question:2 Mr. B. Ahern asked the Taoiseach the outcome of his discussions with Sinn Féin on 28 March 1995. [6831/95]
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Meeting with Sinn Féin.
Mary Harney
Question:3 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the Sinn Féin leader; and if he pressed him to use his influence to have punishment beatings by members of the republican movement ended. [6841/95]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 and 3 together. The Tánaiste and I had a routine meeting on 28 March with a Sinn Féin delegation headed by the party leader.
We reviewed a number of important issues relating to the peace process, and exchanged views on how best to advance matters to the next stage. Thus, the early commencement of talks involving the British Government and Sinn Féin featured prominently in our discussions. I believe both sides are sincere in their efforts to agree a basis for such talks. The Government has been endeavouring to assist those efforts and I hope talks will commence soon.
With regard to so-called punishment beatings, the Government abhors and unreservedly condemns such acts. Sinn Féin and indeed the loyalist representatives are well aware of our strong views and both should use whatever influence they have to put an end to attacks of this kind.
Every week we go through the same procedure. Last week the Taoiseach was close to believing that the commencement of talks was just a day or two away but that does not seem to be the case this week. From where we sit, it seems that for four weeks in a row there was very little between the sides. First it was a case of the decommissioning of arms which Sinn Féin wanted to bring into the broader picture of demilitarisation but that was not acceptable. Now, it is ordering an agenda that will allow Sinn Féin to include other issues, along with decommissioning which will be the central issue on the agenda. The Americans, John Major and the Taoiseach say that. We always agreed that it should be item No. 1 on the agenda. Is there any way this House can stop what seems to amount to playing around with a dangerous game? Yesterday's incident concerning the successful work of the Garda shows that danger is not far away. Instead of repeating what has been said during the past four weeks, will the Taoiseach say if anything can be done to move the process forward so that a meeting can be held?
I understand that there are intensive contacts between Sinn Féin and the British Government with a view to resolving the remaining obstacle to the commencement of full ministerial talks. I am very anxious that those talks take place as soon as possible and both parties know that we will provide whatever help we can in resolving the remaining difficulties. I would not like the House to form the opinion that time is being lost at present. While the discussions about the ordering of the agenda, the words to be used, etc., may seem semantical to some, they carry with them real fears and concerns. Time spent now in allaying those fears and concerns and on getting the agenda right may well prove to be time saved later on when the talks begin at ministerial level. I wish to pay tribute to both sides on their serious and intensive efforts to resolve the remaining difficulties. From time to time accusations of bad faith have been made but, having spoken directly to the principals on both sides, I believe a sincere effort is being made to resolve the remaining difficulties. The House can be assured that this is the case.
I join Deputy Ahern in complimenting the Garda on intercepting those arms yesterday. I hope the Government will continue to make every effort to ensure that arms in this jurisdiction are either decommissioned or taken out of circulation.
Will the Taoiseach state if the Leader of Sinn Féin believes that punishment beatings are wrong? Does the Taoiseach believe that neither side is placing unsurmountable obstacles in the way of these talks?
Neither side is placing obstacles in the way of these talks merely for the sake of it. There are genuine concerns on both sides and these lie behind the apparently semantic and arcane arguments about the agenda and the wording to be used to denominate certain items on it.
On the question of punishment beatings, I have made it abundantly clear both publicly and to Sinn Féin that these are wrong in all circumstances and represent an incursion on human rights of an appalling kind. It would not be appropriate for me to speak for anybody else on this subject but it is my view that Mr. Adams also believes that punishment beatings are wrong. I intend to use all the means available to me publicly to continue to put moral pressure on those who may be involved in punishment beatings or those protecting them to put an end to the beatings and the protection of those involved from the full rigours of the law. People who engage in this sort of activity should be brought before the courts and dealt with in the appropriate way, nobody should protect them from the rigours of the law.
Many other problems in this area need to be sorted out and while my condemnation of punishment beatings is unreserved this is not to be taken as a statement that there are no other areas where improvements can be made. For example, there is room for movement in such areas as policing in Nationalist and some loyalist areas.
Will the Taoiseach agree that a logjam has been caused by the very complex nature of the decommissioning and demilitarisation process involved in removing arms from the Northern Ireland scene? Will he also agree that it would be sensible at this stage to place that issue with an independent third party country or international agency such as the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe which would consider it in detail so that the important political aspects of concern to both Governments and all the political parties in the North can immediately be discussed and a settlement reached?
I wish the decommissioning of arms was a mere technical matter——
I know it is not.
——which would only require outside advice. There is a very clear political dimension to this matter both in terms of the requirement to get the organisations associated with those who hold the arms to make a clear political statement that they want those arms put out of commission and that as long as they remain in commission there is political suspicion and it is difficult to get certain people to sit down with them. This is a political question and we hope to achieve a serious political engagement on the issue of decommissioning by all those concerned. We have gone a long way towards achieving that. While important difficulties remain these are not unsurmountable. Even as we speak serious and sincere ongoing efforts are being made to overcome these difficulties. There is no logjam; rather there is a process of teasing out certain difficult issues which could lead to serious misunderstandings if they are not teased out before the talks begin.
In Washington on 28 February the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs said that taking the attitude that nothing will happen unless arms are decommissioned or surrendered is a formula for disaster. Obviously he believes there has to be a more comprehensive agenda. The process of trying to get both sides to agree the agenda and ensuring that everything is in order would be the correct one if the parties involved held all the cards. I do not want to pursue this issue further but clearly the negotiators do not hold all the cards.
Last year the British Prime Minister, Mr. Major, said that peace cannot be finally assured until the paramilitaries on both sides hand in their weapons. We seem to be trying to prohibit Sinn Féin from raising issues such as the Crossmaglen GAA pitch, west Belfast, etc., by first requiring discussions on decommissioning. This is not in the spirit of what was said prior and post the ceasefire last autumn. I accept that the Taoiseach is involved in contacts and may not be able to answer my question, but will be unequivocally ask the British Government and Sinn Féin to resolve this minor issue which is in their hands? Yesterday's events show that this might not always be the case and Sinn Féin has repeatedly made this point at the forum and in private.
I have no difficulty asking the British Government and Sinn Féin to resolve this issue. In saying that, however, I recognise that the issues involved are genuine and sincere efforts are being made to overcome them. It is not simply a question of saying we can start the talks tomorrow morning. Some minor difficulties still remain to be resolved. In dealing with matters such as this, particular words can often carry threatening emotional baggage for some communities and a totem pole status for others. The practical day to day concerns about troop levels, deployment and so on can be discussed in the normal way, but it is difficult to describe that process of discussion without some community feeling threatened. Nothing would be gained by starting talks on one side of the divide in Northern Ireland if the price to be paid was more difficulties on the other side. The efforts being made by Sinn Féin and the British Government are sincere and I urge the parties concerned to bring discussions to a conclusion as soon as possible. In saying that, I am not making little of the genuine concerns on either side.
The Taoiseach stated that there are still legitimate differences between the two sides. In speaking in Oxford last Friday night, the Tánaiste stated that as far as he was concerned there were no differences between the two sides and that the talks should proceed. How does the Taoiseach reconcile those differing comments?
I have outlined the position as I understand it. Some minor issues remain to be resolved between the parties regarding the agenda, the words to be used to describe items on the agenda and how the meetings are to be founded. They are minor issues in comparison to the total agenda, but they are still of some consequence. As I have stated repeatedly, sincere and intensive efforts are being made by both sides to resolve the remaining issues and regardless of how the question is put I do not propose saying anything what would suggest a lack of regard for the concerns of either side in this issue. I am not in a position to comment on the speech to which the Deputy referred. I would need to scrutinise it before I could do so.
It is a matter of considerable importance if the Taoiseach is saying one thing and the Tánaiste another about what are described as minor issues. There are guns stocked in Balbriggan, Belfast and elsewhere which I am thankful are not being used. Surely minor issues should not be allowed delay substantive talks to build on the process which began on 31 August last. Surely it should be a matter of priority for the Taoiseach not only to contact the British Government and Sinn Féin, but to take a proactive role in bringing the two sides together in regard to an agenda so that the talks can proceed.
I am taking a proactive role on this matter and will continue to do so.