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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Jul 1995

Vol. 455 No. 5

Order of Business.

It is proposed to take Nos. 6, 11, 12 and, subject to the agreement of the motion for the Second Reading of No. 10, the Committee and Remaining Stages of the Local Government (Delimitation of Water Supply Disconnection Powers) Bill, 1995; and Nos. 2, 1 and, subject to the agreement of No. 6, the Committee and remaining Stages of the Electoral (Amendment) Bill, 1995.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m.; (2) No. 6 shall be decided without debate; (3) the proceedings on the Report and Final Stages of Nos. 11 and 12, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 11.15 a.m. and 12.30 p.m., respectively, by one question in each case which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Enterprise and Employment, respectively; (4) the proceedings on the Committee and remaining Stages of the Local Government (Delimitation of Water Supply Disconnection Powers) Bill, 1995, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 5 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for the Environment; (5) the proceedings on the Second Stage of No. 2, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m.; (6) the proceedings on No. 1, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10 p.m. and any amendments from the Seanad not disposed of shall be decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments thereto, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Enterprise and Employment; (7) the proceedings on the Committee and remaining Stages of the Electoral (Amendment) Bill, 1995, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for the Environment; (8) Private Members' Business shall be No. 17 and the proceedings thereon shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. and (9) the Dáil on its rising tonight shall adjourn until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 7 July 1995.

Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and that business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m. agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal that No. 6 be decided without debate agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with Nos. 11 and 12 agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with the Committee and remaining Stages of No. 10 agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 2 agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 1 agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with the Committee and remaining Stages of the Electoral (Amendment) Bill, 1995, agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal that Private Members' Business shall conclude at 8.30 p.m. agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal that the Dáil on its rising tonight shall adjourn until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 7 July 1995, agreed? Agreed.

Before I raise questions on the Order of Business, will the Taoiseach confirm that he has been in contact with the British Prime Minister, Mr. John Major? Some time ago he promised to organise six monthly summits with Mr. Major as soon as matters in Westminster had been cleared up. When will the meeting take place?

This is not strictly relevant to the Order of Business.

If the Taoiseach does not answer that question then the definition of the Order of Business is very tight.

I have no problem answering it.

I wish there was a more effective and appropriate way of raising these very important matters.

On the assumption that I am not creating a precedent I will answer the question. I have been in touch with the British Prime Minister but it was a personal communication between two individuals. That is all I will say about it.

Was the Taoiseach in touch with Mr. Redwood?

No. On the other question, the House will recollect that at Cannes we left open the possibility of meeting again when the work we commissioned there was completed. The work is not yet completed and I cannot say when the meeting will take place. In any event we agreed in Moscow to hold a summit in September.

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. I wish to remind him that the previous Government gave the then Opposition a commitment that legislation would be circulated two weeks before it was taken in the House. This commitment has been breached on a number of occasions in the past week, yet we have co-operated with the Government and agreed to take the legislation. However, there is no need to rush through the Irish Medicines Board Bill, the Netting of Financial Contracts Bill — which I presume deals with the Merrill Lynch issue — and the Industrial Development Bill. During recent debates on certain issues Government Deputies sat down and used the spin doctors line that there were no Opposition Deputies to contribute. This happened during the debate on Deputy Dempsey's waste Bill a few weeks ago. If the Government wants co-operation it must earn it.

Fianna Fáil were labouring in Wicklow.

The Deputy should shut up about Wicklow.

The Deputy should not be distracted by the interruptions.

Is the Deputy seeking clarification on promised legislation?

I am making the point that if the Government honours its commitment we will co-operate in the case of urgent legislation. I do not want to go through the list but at least ten of the Bills promised by the Taoiseach will not be ready to be taken by the committees during July and September. Some Ministers have attempted to push through all Stages so that the legislation does not have to go into committee. One Minister, whom I will not embarrass by naming, succeeded by sleight of hand in doing this. The Government must play by the rules and publish promised Bills so that they can be dealt with in a meaningful way. The Taoiseach does not seem to know about some of these issues. The Opposition will not be taken for granted and we will co-operate on the basis that the rules are adhered to.

We endeavour at all times to give two weeks notice of legislation and when we cannot do so we provide briefings to the Opposition spokespersons to enable them to get up to speed on the subject matter of the legislation during the shorter timeframe. That has been done in the case of all the legislation referred to by the Deputy. Much legislation is being brought forward at this time to ensure significant Committee Stage work for the committees of the House during the summer recess. We could have published the Bill during the recess but had we done this it could not have been referred to the committee during the recess. The bringing forward of legislation is telescoped as to time principally to create a volume of useful work for the committees during the Dáil recess. I am sure the Deputy agrees that this is a sensible course of action to adopt. In all these cases we are providing briefing to the Opposition spokespersons which hopefully makes up for the failure to give them two weeks to ruminate on the subject matter of the Bill.

I am not going to point the finger at certain Ministers as I do not want to embarrass them but what the Taoiseach has said is incorrect. In the case of some of the Bills brought forward in the past week the Government requested that we take all Stages in the House — the Minister had no interest in referring the legislation to the committees. In future we should follow the honoured rule of the House where the Whips control the business.

The Chair has allowed some latitude in respect of this matter. We are tending towards debate.

During my time in the House I cannot remember an occasion when the then Government did not need to debate all Stages of urgent legislation during the week or two before the summer recess. Obviously work needs to be progressed in accordance with certain time limits and one or two items of legislation fall into this category. This Government is no exception and we need to pass all Stages of urgent legislation. In the case of legislation which is not urgent we either give two weeks notice or give briefings to the Opposition spokespersons. Very often we give the briefing because we want to put the legislation into committee for the recess.

The Government's legislative programme is seriously in arrears and extremely inefficiently run in that four Bills with one Minister promised by the Taoiseach some months ago — the Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, the Carriage of Dangerous Goods Bill, the International Carriage by Rail Bill and the Air Navigation of Transport Bill — have not yet seen the light of day. There is gross inefficiency throughout this Administration in bringing forward promised legislation.

(Interruptions.)

The Air Navigation Bill cannot be brought forward because we are awaiting the conclusion of an agreement with the Russian authorities.

The Taoiseach should phone Mr. Yeltsin.

People following political developments in Russia will realise that the Government does not have complete control over everything that happens there. No promise was made to introduce the Carriage of Dangerous Goods Bill before the summer recess and it will be available in 1996.

It is on the list.

Let us hear the Taoiseach.

The text of the Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill was approved on 28 June and I expect it to be published very soon. The International Carriage by Rail Bill is being drafted. I am not aware of any promise to introduce it before the summer recess and it will not be available until the middle of next year.

It is on the list.

It will not be introduced before the summer recess.

We are all pleased that Mr. Major has secured and consolidated his position. In the light of the Clegg decision it is important for the Taoiseach to have a meeting with the Prime Minister before September. I am sure the Taoiseach has not closed off the option of an earlier meeting and I hope one can take place so that the stalemate can be resolved.

On promised legislation, does the Government intend to bring forward legislation with a view to holding the divorce referendum in November of this year?

I wish to remind the Taoiseach that only some parties have enjoyed the benefit of the briefings to which he referred. The Green Party, Comhaontas Glas, has not had this courtesy extended to it and he might consider doing so for the next session. I understand the reasons the Dáil is not sitting tomorrow. However, the Minister for the Environment was scheduled to answer questions and I would like to know if provision is being made to enable him to answer them on Friday?

A Deputy

Will the Deputy show up?

No, there will be no provision for question on Friday. Unfortunately, the decision to adjourn means that questions to the Minister for the Environment are a casualty. It is not possible to deal with all these situations when one decides, as we did properly, not to sit on Thursday because of the obsequies of Senator Fallon.

In relation to what the Taoiseach said earlier about a number of Bills which are being put through the House in advance of the two week period where briefings are given to Opposition spokespersons, many groups who are interested in all these Bills have not had an opportunity to make their views known to the Opposition and the Government as a result of the publishing of those Bills. We have read in the newspapers that the Government has fixed up its disagreements on the privilege and compellability of witnesses Bill. We were told that that Bill would be before the House this session. Will the Taoiseach indicate if agreement has been reached between the various Government parties, if he has reached agreement with the Attorney General and when it will be before the House?

In most cases where briefing is provided for the Opposition on a Bill because it is being introduced less than two weeks after its publication, it is not to enable the Bill to go into committee. Between Second Stage and Committee Stage there is, of course, an opportunity for Members of the Opposition to consult with interest groups outside the House and, furthermore, there is in the committees' order of reference the possibility for the committee as a whole to invite interest groups to come in and discuss it. There are ample opportunities for taking outside views. This Dáil works on procedures that are more expeditious in regard to legislation than any previous Dáil and allow more input from outside bodies to the deliberations of the House than was ever previously possible. That is not solely to the credit of this Government but to the credit of the entire House. We should recognise that reality rather than convey the impression that we do our business in a way that does not allow outside input.

In relation to the compellability legislation, all the disagreements, differences and arguments about that have been settled. The Bill will be produced during the summer recess and I expect it will be ready for discussion in the autumn.

On a point of order——

Please, Deputy, you have had your opportunity.

I just want to make a point of order.

Why raise a point of order? If the Deputy has a legitimate point to make please make it.

We were asked to take all Stages of three Bills last week before the recess. None of the interest groups would have been in position to make representations to the Opposition or the Government about those Bills which were not even published when we were discussing——

This should not give rise to debate or argument now.

I have already dealt with that point in response to the Deputy's namesake. Deputy Bertie Ahern. I pointed out that every Government at every summer recess since 1922 has introduced legislation that needs to be put through before the Dáil rises. There were three instances of that on this occasion. That is not exceptional. It will happen next year, the year after and for as long as this House exists.

Will the Taoiseach explain why the national education and training certification board Bill was not produced this session, given his promise that it had been dealt with by the Cabinet and would be ready for debate in April? Will he clarify the status of the higher education grants Bill? Will it be taken in the autumn given the statement by the Minister for Education last evening that the restrictions on public sector recruitment will mean that the proposed centralised agency for higher education grants cannot now go ahead?

The Deputy is going into detail.

Will the Taoiseach indicate the implications of the restrictions on public recruitment for the Bill?

The implications of the Bill must await its introduction in this House. The present position about the measures——

Will the higher education grants Bill be taken in the autumn?

The higher education grants Bill will be taken in the autumn, as will the national education training and certification boards Bill.

On the list of promised legislation under arts, culture and the Gaeltacht there are three proposed Bills, none of which has seen the light of day. The only legislation under the arts, culture and the Gaeltacht portfolio has been the Heritage Act, initiated by the last Government. Will the Taoiseach please enlighten the House on the progress of these Bills and when they are likely to come before the House?

The cultural institutions Bill will be available in 1996. I have seen a draft and it is very comprehensive legislation. There is also a national parks and heritage areas Bill which will be available next year and we hope a wildlife Bill will be available later this year.

On a point of order——

Sorry, Deputy, we cannot continue a debate on these matters. I call Deputy O'Donnell.

On the privilege and compellability of witnesses legislation, the Taoiseach said the differences have been reconciled in relation to the accountability of the Attorney General for the operations of his office to an Oireachtas committee. Has any effort been made to reach a similar compromise in relation to a greater level of accountability for the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions as has been requested in this House?

Perhaps this is a question that might be tabled in the ordinary way.

I did so and it was not answered: it was transferred to the Department of Finance for some reason.

It is not appropriate now.

I recall the Taoiseach promising me that the fraud offences Bill would be published in this session. Is it intended to publish it between now and next Friday? Will the Taoiseach deny recent newspaper reports that no full-time accountancy staff are to be appointed to the bureau of fraud investigation?

This is not Question Time.

Anybody who is familiar, as I have no doubt the Deputy is, with the area of fraud legislation will be aware that drafting is crucially important. Other jurisdictions have attempted various legislative measures to deal with white collar crime and these have proven to be not particularly successful but very expensive. Obviously, care needs to be taken in ensuring that we get the right formulation in regard to this area of legislation. Those involved in drafting should not feel bound by any artificial deadlines if they are not satisfied that they have struck the right balance because otherwise we could put the taxpayer to a great deal of expense. It is the Government's intention to produce this Bill by the end of 1995 but if it is not ready it will not be produced by then. It will only be produced when it is ready.

That is a good honest promise.

Will the Taoiseach indicate if the Government's proposals on the tax treatment of separated or divorced couples will come before the House prior to the target date for the divorce referendum? When does he expect them to come before the House?

That matter is under consideration. Obviously, the Government will do everything it can to make its intentions known in regard to that matter in advance of the divorce referendum. Whether the actual legislation is put through is another matter. It might be more appropriate to deal with the detail in terms of the formulation of legislative proposals and changes in the Finance Bill. The maximum degree of clarity on that point will be available before the referendum.

What about the publication of proposals?

The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry stated in committee that he is favourably disposed towards payments under the rural environment protection scheme being exempt from means testing for people in receipt of unemployment assistance and other means tested schemes. Is it intended that the Minister for Social Welfare will introduce a Bill to give effect to this exemption?

Can the Deputy refer to some specific legislation in that area?

I understand from the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry that some legislation is being devised——

It might be best to deal with that matter by way of formal question.

An expression of opinion does not constitute promised legislation.

The Minister said at the select committee that the only way to provide for an exemption was to introduce legislation. When will that legislation be introduced?

Has legislation been promised in this area?

When a valid point is made by a Member on the opposite side of the House on Committee Stage a Minister will undertake to investigate the matter in conjunction with his colleagues. I understand that the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry has initiated a discussion with the Minister for Social Welfare on the matter in response to representations made at the select committee but no conclusion has been reached and no specific promise has been made to introduce legislation.

Order, please.

On a point of information——

The Deputy has had a fair innings this morning.

That is a foreign game which he is not allowed to play.

The Taoiseach was not present. A much more specific commitment was given.

The Deputy must raise the matter in another way.

The Minister went so far as to say that there would not be a means test but no legislative action has been taken to provide for this.

Is the Taoiseach aware of the plight of the Irish Press workers who are six weeks out of work without pay and being denied social welfare payments without good reason?

The Deputy must raise that matter in a proper fashion.

Will the Taoiseach intervene? I have raised this matter on three occasions but have received no response from the Taoiseach or the Minister for Social Welfare.

Unfortunately, the Order of Business is not the right time to do so.

It is an absolute disgrace.

Will work be done during the summer months on the Juvenile Justice Bill and will the Taoiseach give an undertaking that it will be introduced early in the autumn?

The discussions taking place between the three Departments involved, namely, the Departments of Justice, Education and Health, on this matter are reaching a conclusion. The Bill will be introduced as soon as possible.

Has the Government yet made a decision to sign the European charter for regional or minority languages?

Legislation has not been promised.

I tabled a question to the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht recently. I understand the matter is being discussed——

It would be more appropriate to raise it at Question Time.

Will the Taoiseach respond?

Will we sign it?

It has been awaiting signature since 1992.

I am aware of that.

The Deputy should raise the matter in another way to obtain the information he needs.

Has the Government decided to sign the charter?

The Minister concerned is due to answer questions today. I am sure the Deputy will get an opportunity to raise the matter then.

Last week the Taoiseach indicated that it was intended to introduce legislation dealing with the organisational structures of health boards. It is my understanding, however, that since then the Minister for Health has indicated that it is not his intention to introduce such a Bill but proposals may be made. Was the Taoiseach correct in saying last week that a Bill would be introduced?

The draft heads of a Bill are the subject matter of detailed consultations taking place at present. We expect it to be published later this year or early next year.

That is not correct. A Bill was ready for publication last December to provide for the allocation of £100 million of the money raised by way of the amnesty to clear the balances of health boards. The Minister is now trying to get out of this——

This is leading to argument.

A total of £100 million is at stake.

There is a measure of confusion because there are two separate health Bills — the Health (Amendment) Bill to enhance the accountability of health boards under the 1970 Act the text of which is being finalised and which we expect to be published early next session and the legislation dealing with the organisational structures of health boards to which Deputy Callely referred and the draft heads of which are the subject matter of consultations taking place at present.

A Bill was ready for publication last December to provide for the allocation of £100 million which has already been paid. What is the reason for the delay and why can it not be published today? The Minister for Finance knows that it was ready for publication last December.

I cannot allow the Order of Business to evolve into a mini Question Time.

Is the Law Reform Commission still in existence and, if so, when can we expect to receive its report on bail?

The Law Reform Commission is still in existence and I have no doubt that it will produce its report on bail as soon as it is ready.

On Friday will members receive replies to questions tabled for written reply?

Will Members have an opportunity later in the month to receive replies?

If a Member submitted a question on Monday morning last before 11 a.m. when can he expect to receive a written reply?

They were late. It was agreed——

If a Member in good faith adhered to the normal guidelines——

Will the Deputy allow me to answer his question, please?

——and submitted a question before 11 a.m. on Monday morning last when can he expect to receive a written reply? If replies are ready can a device not be found to release them? Will I have to wait until October?

The House is not sitting tomorrow.

Primarily these are matters which might be discussed among the Whips.

What about openness, transparency and accountability?

Will the Taoiseach accede to the request made by my party leader yesterday that Members be allowed to table questions for written reply during July and September? The parties in Government proposed this when in Opposition. That would be one way round the problem.

It is rather unusual that the Fianna Fáil Party is raising this matter. A distinguished member of that party has died — Senator Fallon — and at its request but without any hesitation the Government has agreed that the House will not sit tomorrow. As a consequence, there will be no Question Time tomorrow and questions tabled for answer tomorrow will not be answered.

What about questions tabled for written reply?

That includes questions tabled for written answer because such questions are taken on the same day as questions tabled for oral answer. There is no independent process under which questions tabled for written answer may be taken when questions tabled for oral reply are not due to be answered.

That is not so.

The system was changed to ensure that committees would continue to conduct business during July and September. We facilitated the Government in this regard and are participating. Members should be allowed to table questions for written reply during these two months. It is necessary to do this. I ask the Government to reconsider this simple matter so that the information Deputies need to conduct business can be provided.

That point has already been made adequately.

It does not matter what I say as the Fianna Fáil Party will not be happy.

The Taoiseach should not make this a political issue.

If it is seeking a major change in procedure to allow questions to be tabled and answered when the Dáil is not sitting, this will have major implications. We are willing to consider the matter next year——

(Interruptions.)

——but in the meantime we will not change the procedure. In regard to legislation to be taken during the recess, if written requests for information, in the form of letters, are sent by Opposition spokespersons or other relevant people I will ask the secretary of each of the 16 Departments of State to provide that information promptly.

It is an important point.

There should be another way of dealing with it.

I understood that the House was not going into recess on Friday evening and that it would conduct its business through committees on the House. The Government's proposal — on which we were working during the last few years — is that the House remains operating fully, although not in the Chamber, during July and September. If the House is not in recess we should have the same facilities.

We did not have questions then either.

I am sorry to have to explain this to the Deputies but there are responses to written questions only on days when oral questions are also being taken.

That has been the procedure. Any departure from the procedure would put the public administration in a position——

They are simple questions.

This is the reforming Taoiseach.

——where they could be answering written Dáil questions on Christmas Day. We do not want that situation but if the Opposition wishes to make proposals regarding mechanisms for answering written questions while the Dáil is not in plenary session and oral questions are not being taken, we will consider such proposals. They can be put to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and will be examined for next year. However, we are unable to do that for this Thursday or any day in the immediate future.

Were there instructions last Monday that questions tabled on Monday would not be acceptable? This has happened. Why is the Government operating in a covert manner instead of answering the questions that have been put down for this week? Surely the questions can be answered on Friday.

It is quite improper, in view of the fact that the Government agreed that the House would not sit on Thursday as a mark of respect for a member of the Deputy's party, that the Opposition should now seek——

They are written answers.

——to make use of that situation. Nobody could have known on Monday morning that we would not be sitting on Thursday. We agreed that we will not sit on Thursday because of the funeral of a member of the Deputy's party. That has certain consequences, one of which is that there is no Question Time on Thursday.

They are written questions.

The questions are prepared.

Questions put down in good faith on Monday for answer on Thursday cannot and will not be answered.

They will not be answered until October.

The questions can be deferred to be answered on Friday.

The questions were put down, the Departments concerned have worked on them and I am sure that the answers are available. Will the Taoiseach ask the Minister for the Environment to let us have the answers in written or letter format within the next few days?

Yes. That is a reasonable request and I will abide by it.

The Association for the Welfare of Children in Hospital has just concluded a successful conference. I thank the Government, particularly the Minister for Health, for their support in making that possible.

Will the Taoiseach convey to Sheik Mohammed the appreciation of the Irish people for the generosity he showed in donating his prize last Sunday?

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