Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Jul 1995

Vol. 455 No. 7

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 1, 6 and subject to the agreement of No. 6 to take an additional Estimate (Vote 46), 2, 7 and 9.

It is also proposed notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders or anything in the Order of the Dáil of 7 July 1995, that; 1. The amendments from the Seanad to the Netting of Financial Contracts Bill, 1995 shall be taken together and decided without debate by one question which shall be put from the Chair; 2. No. 6 and an additional Estimate (Vote 46) shall be decided without debate; 3. The proceedings on the Second Stage of No. 2, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 1.00 p.m. today, and the following arrangements shall apply; (i) the opening speeches of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fianna Fáil Party and the Progressive Democrats Party shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; (ii) the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (iii) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon not later than 12.50 p.m. to make a speech in reply. 4. The proceedings on No. 7, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 4.00 p.m. today, and the following arrangements shall apply; (i) the opening speeches of the Minister for Justice and of the main spokespersons for the Fianna Fáil Party and the Progressive Democrats Party shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; (ii) the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (iii) the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs shall be called upon not later than 3.50 p.m. to make a speech in reply; (iv) all Members may share time; 5. The proceedings on No. 9, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 5.20 p.m. today, and the following arrangements shall apply; (i) the opening statements of the Minister for Justice and of the main spokespersons for the Fianna Fáil Party and the Progressive Democrats Party shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; (ii) the statement of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (iii) the Minister for Justice shall be called upon not later than 5.10 p.m. to make a concluding statement; (iv) all Members may share time.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is it agreed that the amendments from the Seanad to the Netting of Financial Contracts Bill, 1995, shall be taken together and decided without debate by one question which shall be put from the Chair? Agreed. Is it agreed that No. 6 and an additional Estimate, Vote 46, shall be decided without debate? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 2 satisfactory? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 7 satisfactory?

Mr. Sargent

In relation to Nos. 7 and 9, will the Taoiseach make time available to allow me to make a contribution on behalf of the Green Party which has not been mentioned for reasons which have already been explained?

An Ceann Comhairle

This is primarily a matter for the Whips. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 7 satisfactory? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 9 satisfactory? Agreed.

Mr. J. Walsh

Will the Taoiseach allow the Social Welfare (Amendment) Bill, 1995, to be taken in view of the fact that the Irish Press workers have been denied social welfare payments for the past two months? All Stages of this technical measure should be taken today to assist these workers who are living from hand to mouth.

The Taoiseach

I understand that the case of the employees in question will be heard this afternoon by the Social Welfare Appeals Tribunal, the terms of reference of which allow it to take into account all the factors affecting them, including the status of their position visá-vis an industrial dispute, the existence of the new legislation governing examinership and all the other matters of concern to the Deputy. That is the best way to deal with the problem.

Deputy J. Walsh rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have allowed the Deputy to put his question to the Taoiseach; it may not give rise to debate now.

Mr. J. Walsh

Social welfare legislation does not allow for a situation in which an examiner has been appointed.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, but there can be no debate now.

Mr. J. Walsh

I propose that social welfare legislation be brought up to date.

Miss Harney

Has the Government agreed to decouple the arms issue from the talks process in Northern Ireland by the establishment of a commission and, if so, will the House be required to approve a motion?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that matter not being raised today?

Miss Harney

I do not think so. The Taoiseach should be more forthcoming given that he campaigned for Dáil reform. Occasionally, when it suits him he chooses to reply to matters raised on the Order of Business. As the House has not met for three weeks it is important, in the context of what has not been happening in Northern Ireland, that he respond to a reasonable query from me.

The Taoiseach

I have no problem in responding to any queries, but it is my understanding that on the Order of Business questions should relate to promised legislation. No legislation has been promised on this matter.

Mr. D. Ahern

What about Dáil reform?

The Taoiseach

Having said that, the Government is doing all it can to advance the process to a point where all the parties which are relevant will be present and participate in all party talks. It is important that both communities in Northern Ireland, Nationalist and Unionist, should feel a sense of ownership of the process. When the Government states that it is working towards, as it is, all party talks it means inclusive of all.

One of the issues which has to be overcome along the way is the issue of decommissioning. The Government is considering various ways, including the possibility mentioned by the Deputy, by which this difficulty can be overcome. We have not reached the point, however, at which there is a proposal to put to the House and we may not reach it for some time. The question of a debate, on a specific proposal does not therefore, arise at this stage. If and when that point is reached we will want the House to be involved in approving a proposal which will be brought before it at the earliest opportunity.

Mrs. O'Rourke

Will the Taoiseach confirm that an international body will be set up in early September to deal with the issue of arms decommissioning? Will he ensure that the deliberations of that body will not be used as a further pretext to delay the commencement of all party talks?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot debate the matter now.

The Taoiseach

All party talks would include the Unionists. Obviously, their concerns on the issue of decommissioning are different from those of other parties. We are looking for a formula to enable all the parties to come to the table. This does not mean that we should act unilaterally and say that they must take it or leave it and come on the date set by us. That is not necessarily the best way to get what the Government states it wants — a process in which everyone, Unionist and Nationalist, would feel a sense of ownership at the outset.

To avoid a situation where people feel they are being asked to say "yes" or "no" to a specific proposal devised by somebody else within a time limit we will not set a date, say, September; rather we are working to secure agreement which means allowing all the parties time to accommodate new proposals put forward in good faith and setting time limits is not necessarily helpful in that context.

In reply to Deputy Harney, I explained that the possibility of establishing an international commission is one of the ideas being considered to overcome one of the obstacles along the way to all party talks.

Deputy O'Rourke rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will hear no more on this matter; it is not in order. We cannot debate it now.

Mrs. O'Rourke

No party should have a veto on the commencement of talks.

The Taoiseach

The use of such terms is not necessarily helpful. It has to be recognised that parties which represent 50 to 60 per cent of the population must be taken into account. While one cannot state that they can hold up progress forever if we are to hope for a genuine settlement and not some form of steam-rolling exercise we must work in such a way that they can feel a sense of ownership of the process from the outset. That involves taking the time to listen to them and understand their concerns rather than setting deadlines and saying that unless talks start by a certain date we will not do X or Y.

Mr. Dempsey

It is hard to listen to them when they will not talk.

Miss Harney

Regarding forthcoming legislation, will the Taoiseach indicate why the Government has not published its proposals on holding a divorce referendum?

The Taoiseach

It has not published them because they are not ready.

Dr. Woods

As the Government has set 30 November as the target date for holding a divorce referendum, the House will resume on 11 November and the necessary legislation must be passed by 23 October——

An Ceann Comhairle

That may not give rise to debate now.

Dr. Woods

—— will the Taoiseach indicate if the divorce referendum Bill and the Family Law (No. 2) Bill will be published before the end of August?

The Taoiseach

We will publish that legislation as soon as it is ready. The Family Law Bill is complex legislation involving a large number of sections. The heads of the Bill have been approved by Cabinet and it is being drafted. We would like if possible to have it available by the end of August and if it is ready by that time we will publish it, but I cannot give the House a commitment that it will be ready by that time. As soon as it is ready it will be published. The Minister, the Attorney General, the parliamentary draftsman and all involved are working to publish the legislation as soon as possible.

Mr. R. Burke

In view of the rapidly deteriorating situation in Bosnia, the deplorable and shameful scenes of murder and mayhem and the failure of the United Nations and Europe to protect the people there, what action is the Taoiseach, Tánaiste and Government taking at EU and UN level to change policies to protect the people there?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not relevant now.

Mr. R. Burke

There is silence from the other side.

Mr. O'Donoghue

Will the Taoiseach comment on reports that the State settled a claim by a journalist taken against the State arising from a phone tapping exercise authorised by a former Fine Gael Minister for Justice?

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter to which the Deputy referred is not in order and should not be adverted to.

Mr. O'Donoghue

What about transparency?

Miss Harney

Will the Taoiseach indicate when legislation on the charter amendment order will be introduced, which I understand must be approved by the House, to allow logistic arrangements be made for the establishment of Tallaght Hospital?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to raise that matter at a more appropriate time.

Miss Harney

This matter is in order.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that legislation promised?

The Taoiseach

It is not normal to answer question about statutory instruments. The Deputy is not referring to original but to delegated legislation about which I do not have information. Deputies who study the Order Paper will realise that there are two or three items of delegated legislation every day. I could not possibly answer questions about such legislation. However, I will make inquiries and communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. S. Brennan

On legislation, despite obvious Cabinet conflict, will the Taoiseach indicate if following today's meeting the Government will announce its policy on the sale of part of Telecom Éireann?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not relevant now and the Deputy knows that.

Mr. S. Brennan

When will such legislation be brought before the House? The Minister has taken up acres of newsprint promising to sell off part of Telecom Éireann.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not persist in debating this matter now.

Mr. S. Brennan

It will not happen.

Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn

On promised legislation, will the Taoiseach indicate if the Government still proposes to introduce regulations under the Health Insurance Act, 1994 which will adversely affect the provision of psychiatric care?

The Taoiseach

I explained the position regarding such legislation to Deputy Harney. I answer questions here about original legislation, not about delegated legislation. However, as the Deputy raised the question I will ask the Minister for Health to let her know the position regarding the matter.

Mr. S. Brennan

The Taoiseach is not answering questions.

Mr. Power

Will the Government introduce legislation requested by the national lottery which may result in large scale redundancies in the bookmaking industry?

An Ceann Comhairle

Are there any other relevant questions?

Mr. Power

That deserves an answer. People's jobs are on the line.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must deal with that matter in the appropriate way.

Mr. Power

It should be possible to get answers to such questions on the Order of Business.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may table a question or a motion on the matter.

Mr. O'Dea

Will the Taoiseach indicate if the Government has settled its differences regarding the main plank of the divorce legislation? Will the required separation period be three or four years? As the tension is unbearable will the Taoiseach clarify that today?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is seeking information that is part of the detail of the Bill which will come before the House in due course.