Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Oct 1995

Vol. 456 No. 7

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Northern Ireland Peace Process.

Mary Harney

Question:

3 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach the response, if any, he has had from the political parties associated with terrorism in Northern Ireland to his remarks in Dáil Éireann on 20 September 1995, to the effect that it is not just for the Governments to devise solutions that will give supporters of other traditions the trust and confidence they need to come to the table, it is for the parties directly involved who have contacts with paramilitary organisations to find those solutions too. [13720/95]

Mary Harney

Question:

4 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the Leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, Mr. David Trimble; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13721/95]

Mary Harney

Question:

5 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach the circumstances in which the election of an assembly in Northern Ireland would be desirable in advance of the outcome of all-inclusive political talks; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13746/95]

Bertie Ahern

Question:

6 Mr. B. Ahern asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on his meeting with the Ulster Unionist Leader, Mr. David Trimble on 2 October 1995. [13777/95]

Mary Harney

Question:

7 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with Sinn Féin on Friday, 29 September 1995; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14306/95]

Mary Harney

Question:

8 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach the Government's position in relation to paragraph 6 of the Downing Street Declaration where it states that the Taoiseach will examine with his colleagues any elements in the democratic life and organisation of the Irish State that can be represented to the Irish Government in the course of political dialogue as a real and substantial threat to their way of life and ethos, or that can be represented as fully consistent with a modern democratic and pluralist society, and undertakes to examine any possible way of removing such obstacles; the work that has been undertaken to date with regard to this commitment; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14447/95]

The Taoiseach

I propose to take Questions Nos. 3 to 8, inclusive, together.

My discussions on 2 October with a UUP delegation, led by the party leader, Mr. David Trimble, MP, were very positive and constructive. We explored some of the key issues to be addressed in the context of all-inclusive talks leading to a negotiated settlement. The delegation stated the Ulster Unionist Party position with regard to the commencement of such talks and, in particular, that the issue of illegally held arms on all sides would first need to be satisfactorily resolved. For my part, I outlined recent efforts to secure progress on this issue within the context of movement towards all-party talks in roundtable format.

My meeting with the UUP was on an open agenda basis and the party's recently announced assembly proposal was not raised by the delegation. At the same time, however, we remain open to the ideas of everyone on the best way forward in meeting our objective of comprehensive all-party negotiations covering the three core relationships within and between these islands.

The meeting with the UUP holds much more than mere symbolic significance. First, it indicated a readiness by that party to play their part along with everyone else in improving the climate for all-party talks. Second, exchanges of this kind not only facilitate greater mutual understanding but also help to ensure that full account is taken of Unionist views in policy formulation along, of course, with those of Nationalists.

Regarding my meeting with the Sinn Féin leader, Mr. Gerry Adams, on 29 September, we had a lengthy and detailed exchange of views on how best to achieve the necessary progress on the decommissioning issue, so that all parties will feel sufficiently secure to engage in roundtable all-party talks on a settlement. Having regard to the ongoing efforts to resolve the problem, it would be inappropriate to elaborate further. I can however say that the discussions were useful.

With regard to the suggestion which I recently made in this House that Sinn Féin, the UDP and the PUP should perhaps devise their own proposals on the decommissioning issue, I did not expect that those parties would necessarily respond to me or to other members of the Government. While I have not received any formal responses, I nevertheless believe that the parties concerned are committed to satisfactorily resolving this matter so as to pave the way to all-inclusive talks. This obstacle, I am convinced, will be overcome.

In recent weeks, there has been very worth-while progress in the scale of dialogue involving, in particular, the Northern Ireland parties and the two Governments. I believe that there is now a greater willingness on all sides to listen to, and reflect more carefully on, the views and concerns of others. For our part, the Government is doing everything it can to encourage this developing spirit of openness and tolerance. It is our intention to honour all the commitments made in the Joint Declaration including paragraph 6 which, of course, is set in the context of political dialogue involving the representatives of the Unionist tradition. The establishment of the Constitution Review Group demonstrates our openness to change.

I believe that the peace process is now entering a new phase of trust and confidence-building. In that regard, I welcome and am carefully studying the statement issued by Mr. Gerry Adams on Monday. I note in particular the statements that Sinn Féin are totally committed to the democratic process and the achievement of peace which must involve a permanent end to all violence. I also note the statement that it is self-evident that threats of any description have no role in any peace process. For our part, the Government will continue to do everything it can to build trust and confidence with a view to bringing about a durable political settlement achieved through a process of dialogue and agreement.

Miss Harney

Is the Taoiseach still of the view that the Governments are tantalisingly close to reaching agreement with a view to all-party talks commencing?

The Taoiseach

Yes.

Miss Harney

The Taoiseach first said that about ten days ago and as he may or may not be aware, many of the other participants in these talks do not share the view that the Governments are tantalisingly close. Will he elaborate on why he believes they are tantalisingly close? Has he come to an agreement on the commission, its terms of reference and so on?

The Taoiseach

I do not want to be pedantic but the word "tantalising" has a particular meaning; it does not mean you have arrived at a destination but that it is within sight and is something that you may or may not achieve. I could give a definition of tantalising——

Miss Harney

I do not want that.

The Taoiseach

——it relates to the experience of the King of Phrygia who was condemned to stand in water that receded when he tried to drink it and under branches that drew back when he tried to pick the fruit. It does not mean necessarily that you have arrived at your destination when you say that something is tantalisingly close. I think the word is apt because it demonstrates that we can see what is attainable but we are not there yet and there is no certainty that we will arrive. It will require that extra effort by everybody to traverse the gap between potential and reality and it is not just the Governments that will have to move on this. I am encouraged by the statements of various people in recent days. I am encouraged by the sense of engagement of a variety of people, including obviously two Governments, the parties in Northern Ireland and the US Administration on this matter. I hope the "tantalisation" will not last unduly long and that we will achieve results.

Mr. B. Ahern

Does the Taoiseach agree that the new Unionist Party leader's openness to dialogue is welcome; at all the meetings that have taken place he has expressed an openness to engage in dialogue. Did Mr. Trimble respond to the Taoiseach's suggestion that he should join the British-Irish Parliamentary body? Is he aware that the SDLP will not accept the idea of an assembly in advance of or as a substitute for all party talks as it is the view of Mr. John Hume and his party that they tried that road in 1975 and in 1982 but it failed? Does he agree that there will never be serious negotiations as long as some parties can cherry pick from the menu?

The Taoiseach

It is not a question simply of cherry picking; everybody has the right to bring their proposals to the table. It is not a matter for Government or Governments or sets of parties to say this is the agenda and no other participant may add anything to it. I think we must stress that all parties, including the Unionists, the SDLP, Sinn Féin and others, are quite within their rights in putting forward new suggestions for the agenda or postulating ways in which deadlocks or problems which exist can be overcome.

I did not get a positive response from the Unionists to the suggestion I made about joining the British-Irish parliamentary body but that is not something on which I believe they have a totally closed mind. I am aware of the views of the SDLP on David Trimble's proposal of an assembly. In my response to that statement I said two things: first, that it should be looked at carefully by all; second, that any proposal had to be within a three strand framework and there could be no question, therefore, of internal arrangements substituting for the three stranded arrangements that are necessary.

Dr. McDaid

In view of the statement yesterday by the British Minister for Defence is it not quite clear that the British Government, and in particular the British Conservative Party, does not seem to have any intention of being properly in the European Union and would prefer if the European Union would join the United Kingdom?

Will the Taoiseach comment on the claim made at the Conservative Party conference that it was never intended that the Joint Framework Document would be implemented by the British Government and that a senior Stormont Minister said that what was described as the entirely repulsive framework document had been no more than a booster rocket to get the process airborne? Surely if one is talking about trust and "tantalisingly close", this statement does not help.

The Taoiseach

I would prefer to rely on the contacts the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, I and others have had with the British Government. We will hear all sorts of unusual sounds from political parties which do not necessarily represent the views of the Government of the day.

Mr. D. Ahern

I wish the Taoiseach success in his encouragement of Ulster Unionists to participate in the British-Irish parliamentary body. As a former co-chairman we sent many signals to them but, unfortunately, they were all repulsed. In his contact with the British Government will he ask the Prime Minister to use his influence to get the Unionists to participate in that body? When the British-Irish parliamentary body last met, Mr. Mates, who sometimes is regarded as a senior spokes-person for the British Government, made certain remarks about a short term return to violence being considered by both Governments, Will the Taoiseach give his views on those remarks and tell us if he raised them with Mr. Major in the meantime?

The Taoiseach

I am satisfied that Mr. Mates's views in this instance did not represent in any sense the thinking of the British Government. I do not see a need to raise them with the British Government because I do not believe they represent the views of the British Government. I believe we will hear views of this nature from time to time, but if we were to become involved in protest politics every time somebody said something they should not have said, we would not be using our time as effectively as possible. I believe the British Government is committed to finding a solution to the dilemmas that we now face and I am confident that my beliefs will be vindicated by results in due course.

Miss Harney

I will not argue with the Taoiseach about the dictionary definition of tantalising except to say that the signal the Taoiseach sent out when he used those words was positive and most people felt the Governments were very close. I believe it was an unfortunate choice of words.

Is it the case that there are fundamental differences between the two Governments on the decommissioning issue?

The Taoiseach

I am glad the Deputy would describe as positive the signal I sent out in a speech ranging over a number of ideas on that occasion. I believe it is and was a positive signal and as I spoke we were moving towards an agreement, and we are still moving and are further along the road to agreement. I have no problem with any message on that occasion being described as a positive one because it was and was intended to be but, equally, I believe that the use of the term "tantalising" was an accurate and reasonable description of the situation because, although we are moving towards an agreement, there remains the possibility that we would not achieve it if we do not all make the necessary effort. In that context the word was accurate and apt and far from giving a misleading signal, it gave a very accurate signal.

Mr. B. Ahern

The Taoiseach said he was considering Mr. Gerry Adams's statement of 9 October. Does he welcome that statement, particularly the section he quoted which states that threats have no part to play and that the aim of everyone is permanent peace? Would he agree with Mr. Séamus Mallon who said the British Government should accept that statement as fully satisfying the requirements of paragraph 10 of the Downing Street Declaration and that both Governments should now move to organising all-party talks based on that? We have stated many times that it would be helpful if we heard this from the leader of Sinn Féin. Now that we have, does the Taoiseach welcome it?

The Taoiseach

I have accepted for quite some time that Sinn Féin has met the requirements of paragraph 10. For that reason I have been pressing for all-party talks to begin as soon as possible. However, I recognise that there are others involved whose sensitivities and concerns must also be taken into account. I refer not just to the British Government but to the Unionist community as represented by the various political parties, notably, the Ulster Unionist Party, who need also to be able to come independently to its own judgment that the provisions of paragraph 10 have been complied with. Without attempting to tell the Ulster Unionist Party what to think, it is my view that Mr. Adams's statement is a significant one. The passages referred to by the Deputy about threats having no place in a peace process, and the very comprehensive nature of the speech and of other statements made about this demonstrate a significant and important new commitment on the part of Sinn Féin in this area. I am very glad that this has taken place. The language used by Mr. Adams is the sort of measured and careful language I recommend — and have recommended — to all in the peace process.

Mr. B. Ahern

Leaving aside the Ulster Unionist Party for the moment, will the Taoiseach use this speech of Mr. Gerry Adams to recommend strongly to the British Government, which is still in doubt, that it can interpret this statement as satisfying paragraph 10 of the Downing Street Declaration.

The Taoiseach

I certainly will bring this statement to the attention of the British Government and indicate my view that Sinn Féin has satisfied the provisions of paragraph 10. However, I would not wish — it is one of my constant concerns — in any discussion of this matter to, in the Deputy's phrase, leave aside for the moment the concerns of the Unionist Party——

Mr. B. Ahern

For this question.

The Taoiseach

——because its concerns must be met. Its sensitivities must be addressed, and it must be allowed to come to a decision itself. We must create conditions in which it would not be reasonable for it or anyone else to stay away from the talks because we will have done everything reasonable to give it the assurances it needs. The statement by Mr. Adams is of significant help in that regard.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

I would like to touch on another aspect. Pending the beginning of all-party talks, what is the attitude of the Irish Government to the encouragement of economic co-operation between the two communities in the North? Furthermore, what practical steps can we take to encourage such cross-community co-operation? I have in mind the work of the Phoenix Trust and bodies of that kind where both communities are working together to encourage economic activity in the deprived areas of Belfast.

The Taoiseach

I strongly encourage cross-community activity of that nature. One of the benefits of bodies like the International Fund for Ireland is that they provide a financial resource specifically directed at encouraging cross-community co-operation of an economic kind. I also commend the two biggest parties in Northern Ireland, the Ulster Unionist Party and the Social Democratic Labour Party, on the discussions they have already had on economic matters. I encourage them to intensify these discussions and extend them to include political matters and the ideas that each of the parties is putting forward regarding these matters. There is no need to await all-party talks — although we want to bring them about quickly — for bilateral discussions to take place between the parties on their own initiative.

Miss Harney

Are the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste at one in relation to decommissioning?

The Taoiseach

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us move to Question No. 9.

Miss Harney

I was allowed only three supplementary questions, and I have five questions tabled. I would appreciate the opportunity to ask some more. In regard to Question No. 8, will the Taoiseach agree that if the divorce referendum is defeated, even though it is a matter for this State and this jurisdiction, it will send out false signals to those in Northern Ireland who wish to misrepresent what happens in the Republic?

The Taoiseach

That risk exists, and is one of the reasons I am doing everything I can to ensure that the divorce referendum is not defeated. On the other hand, this is a proposal, namely, creating the right to remarry, that ought to be assessed on its merits rather than by reference to its effect elsewhere.

Miss Harney

Given that in the Downing Street Declaration the Irish Government committed itself to the creation of a more pluralist society here, is the Taoiseach concerned that by inserting the words into the Constitution the Government is pursuing a course of action to which the Church of Ireland said it strongly objected? Whatever about the merits of the proposal as far as the Government is concerned, is the Taoiseach concerned about that matter, and has he taken the opportunity to discuss this with the Church of Ireland authorities?

The Taoiseach

The matter of the wording of the divorce referendum proposal has been discussed extensively in the House, and the Minister for Equality and Law Reform has engaged in extensive consultations with all the relevant interests. I presume, although I cannot give dates, that he included the Church of Ireland in his round of discussions. The Government came to the view it came to, after very careful consideration, precisely for the reason adverted to by the Deputy in her earlier supplementary question. We want the proposal to pass and to give the maximum reassurance to people who might be worried about the proposal and its implications — for example, in regard to unduly speedy divorce — that provision is being made to ensure that does not happen. What we have done we have done to maximise the likelihood of a favourable verdict by the people on this matter. I stress that this is a matter for the people to decide. They are sovereign, and they will make the decision on the matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

Before I hear Deputy Harney again, I would remind the House that questions to the Taoiseach must conclude by 3.30 p.m. Consequently, there is a need to dispose of as many of the remaining questions to the Taoiseach as possible.

Miss Harney

I accept what the Taoiseach said about the Minister, Deputy Taylor, and I do not wish to discuss the Government's strategy because a decision has been made on that matter. However, given the strong submission made by the Church of Ireland to the Forum, will the Taoiseach not accept that the very least the Government could have done was to discuss that submission with them and explain the Government's strategy so that there can be no misrepresentation of the Church of Ireland's strong views given to the Forum and not heeded by the Government? This is particularly relevant given the commitment in the Downing Street Declaration regarding pluralism.

The Taoiseach

The Government has extensively explained in the Oireachtas the reasons for the way it has framed the proposal and I have no doubt that the members of the Church of Ireland are aware and make themselves aware of the reasons advanced by the Government for the decision the Government has taken, in its judgement as the responsible body, as to the best way of framing a proposal on this subject. If further discussions are sought by the Church of Ireland on the subject we will be happy to enter into them, but I am not aware that such discussions have been sought.

Mr. B. Ahern

Does the Taoiseach accept that while valuable work has been undertaken by the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation, the crucial point is that it is the political dialogue referred to in paragraph 6 of the Downing Street Declaration, rather than unilateral dialogue, that is taking place?

The Taoiseach

I agree with that view. I quoted from paragraph 6 of the declaration in a wider context on a number of occasions. It imposes an obligation on the Irish Government to seek to reassure both communities in Northern Ireland to the greatest extent possible and in seeking to ensure that the concerns of the Unionist community on, for example, decommissioning are taken into account, I am acting in accordance with the imperative created by that paragraph. I agree with Deputy Harney's view that paragraph 6 has other related implications in respect of domestic law and so on here. Furthermore, it commits us to entering into discussions with members of the Unionist community regarding their views on matters this side of the Border and as soon as talks commence we hope such discussions will take place. However, after much effort by many people we have established formal dialogue between the Taoiseach and the Leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, something which has not occurred for 25 years.

Dr. McDaid

We are pleased that dialogue has begun between the Taoiseach and Mr. Trimble but, from a communications point of view, there is a lack of dialogue between the Republic and Northern Ireland. We are not getting our message across to Northern Ireland. Since the Irish Press went out of circulation, many people in Border counties purchase the Irish News and the Belfast Telegraph. While messages from Northern Ireland are clearly beamed into the Republic, messages about what we stand for here are not beamed into the North. Will the Taoiseach encourage RTE in this regard? Dialogue is taking place at top level, but we are not getting our message across to the ordinary people.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy's concerns are worthy of a separate question. Efforts are being made to ensure that RTE coverage is more widely available in Northern Ireland and, for the reasons outlined by the Deputy, that is desirable. I cannot, however, give him up-to-date information on the subject without prior notice. He should table a further question on the matter to me or, more appropriately, to the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht because the matter is worthy of consideration. We should use every opportunity to transmit our views to the people in Northern Ireland. I commend Members of the House who have visited the North for meetings and I encourage them to continue to do so. All parties have been active in this regard.