Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Oct 1995

Vol. 456 No. 7

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 and, subject to the agreement of No. 5, the Report and Final Stages of the Fifteenth Amendment of the Constitution (No. 2) Bill, 1995; Nos. 4 and 8, and subject to the agreement of Nos. 6 and 7, the Report and Final Stages of the Irish Medicines Board Bill, 1995 and the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, 1995 respectively.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) Nos. 2 and 3 shall be decided without debate; (2) subject to the agreement of No. 5, No. 4 shall be debated with the Final Stage of the Fifteenth Amendment of the Constitution (No. 2) Bill, 1995, and the proceedings on the Fifteenth Amendment to the Constitution (No. 2) Bill, 1995 and No. 4, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 7.00 p.m. by one question in the case of the proceedings on the Fifteenth Amendment of the Constitution (No. 2) Bill, 1995, which shall in relation to amendments include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Equality and Law Reform and one question in the case of the proceedings on No. 4, such questions to be put from the Chair forthwith and successively; (3) Private Members' Business shall be No. 15 and the proceedings thereon shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. tonight.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal to decide Nos. 2 and 3 without debate satisfactory? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 4 and 5 satisfactory? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Private Members' Business this evening satisfactory? Agreed.

Mr. B. Ahern

Following the unsustainable attacks by the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Lowry, on the semi-State sector, will the Taoiseach, possibly with the Tánaiste if he so wishes, meet the chairmen and chief executives of all the semi-State companies to restore their morale and focus their attention on the serious challenges they face in the commercial sector?

An Ceann Comhairle

Having regard to the long debate and questioning we had on this matter yesterday, I surely cannot be expected to permit a rehash of it this morning, especially when we know that questions on this matter will be dealt with in this House tomorrow.

Mr. B. Ahern

I contend that this is the morning we should be trying to restore the morale of the companies, families and workers mentioned yesterday.

Miss Harney

Will the Taoiseach inform the House if the new procedures announced yesterday by the Minister, Deputy Lowry, regarding the appointment——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have ruled the matter out of order.

Miss Harney

I want to know if it will require legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry——

Miss Harney

I am trying to ask the Taoiseach about legislation on the Order of Business.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy adverted to a matter that I have ruled out of order.

Miss Harney

Will legislation be introduced to deal with procedures for appointment to semi-State bodies?

The Taoiseach

The report containing the recommendations in question has been published and the Government has yet to make formal decisions on the recommendations. If legislation is required to implement them, such legislation will be introduced. It is not incumbent on me or even possible for me to give a legal interpretation as to whether every one of the recommendations can be implemented by Executive action or whether some of them will require statutory provision. I am not sufficiently au fait with details of existing legislation to enable me, without notice, to answer a question of such legal complexity.

Mr. B. Ahern

Will the Taoiseach comment on the crude and insensitive attack by the British Minister for Defence yesterday on the European Court of Human Rights and on the international rule of law?

An Ceann Comhairle

I wish to help the Deputy but surely this matter should be raised at a more appropriate time?

The Taoiseach

I am happy to respond.

Mr. B. Ahern

It is an important matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

I agree and that is all the more reason——

The Taoiseach

I am sorry to trespass on the Chair's prerogatives. The Government made it clear when the judgement was announced that it should be respected. It is important for the rule of law in Europe — which was under threat during the first half of this century and which has been protected thanks to international institutions of this type — that whether States like its conclusions or not they should respect them. That is important in the context of this matter. Human rights is an international and not purely a national matter. We have moved away from the time when States made their rules on these matters independently and without regard to international norms.

It is not particulatly profitable for this House to become involved in individual criticisms of other Governments. That general rule I have set out is respected by this Government, by its predecessors and by this country. That is sufficient indication of our view.

Miss Harney

The House should take this opportunity to congratulate Séamus Heaney on winning the Nobel Prize for Literature. He is the fourth poet this century to win the prize and it is a great honour for him, his family and for the country. The Taoiseach met Mr. Heaney on his return to Ireland. When football teams do well on behalf of this country the House is always ready to congratulate them. We are proud of Mr. Heaney's achievements and this House should honour him.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

I hesitate to rule against the Deputy in the circumstances.

The Taoiseach

I assent to the Deputy's remarks. They are appropriate.

Mr. Cullen

Will the Taoiseach ensure that the Minister, Deputy Lowry, will come before the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Commercial State-sponsored bodies?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has a tendency to defy the Chair. I admonish him against that tactic.

Mr. Cullen

I respect the Chair. On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Cullen may not raise a point of order when the Chair is ruling on a point of disorder.

Mr. Cullen

May I sit down and rise again to raise the point of order?

An Ceann Comhairle

No, the Deputy may not.

Mr. Cullen

I wish to raise a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not raise a point of order when I have ruled against him.

Mr. Cullen

This is a serious matter for the House. It appears that there was no tendering procedure when——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is showing a flagrant disregard for my ruling.

Mr. Cullen

——the Minister forced Bus Éireann to do a deal over a site in Killarney with——

An Ceann Comhairle

I insist that Deputy Cullen desist. Resume your seat or leave the House.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. O'Donoghue

Does the Taoiseach intend to introduce measures in this House to ensure that the sub judice rule is respected in future?

An Ceann Comhairle

There are other ways of dealing with that. It can be raised with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Mr. O'Donoghue

It is a legitimate question and the Taoiseach should answer it.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not the time to raise that matter.

Ms O'Donnell

With regard to promised legislation on freedom of information which the Tánaiste said yesterday would lift the curtains of secrecy that have clouded public policy making in the State for generations, how can the Taoiseach justify the secrecy and obfuscation this Government continues to use to protect its affairs in the context of answering parliamentary questions?

How can the Taoiseach's alleged commitment to openness and accountability on his own behalf and on behalf of his Ministers be justified when he is in perpetual flight from my questions——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is under the misapprehension that this is Question Time.

Ms O'Donnell

——regarding the office of the DPP? I put down a question today which asks the Taoiseach to clarify——

An Ceann Comhairle

I thought Deputy O'Donnell had something pertinent to raise on the Order of Business.

Ms O'Donnell

The Taoiseach is consistently and perpetually in flight from all accountability to this House for the office of the DPP. Can the Ceann Comhairle give a ruling as to whether the Taoiseach is accountable for the DPP to this House?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has had a fair innings this morning on a matter that does not arise now.

(Interruptions.)

Ms O'Donnell

Will the Taoiseach deny that he is responsible for the office of the DPP? He consistently refuses to answer my questions on anything to do with that office. Obviously he is running scared.

Mr. N. Ahern

Several times before the summer the Taoiseach promised to introduce legislation in the autumn to deal with the problem of stray horses in city areas. We were told in June that the Minister of State, Deputy Deenihan, was on schedule in dealing with this matter.

The Taoiseach

I do not know if his party has applied the reins to Deputy Ahern. The question raised by Deputy Ahern is important, particularly in his constituency and a number of others. I expect the text of the legislation to be submitted to the Government at the end of November but realistically the legislation will not be before the House until January. If we can introduce it before Christmas we will do so. This is a matter of some importance and we are pursuing it.

Mr. N. Ahern

The previous promises were that we would have this legislation this session. Has the Minister been deflected or is he chasing other strays? What has happened?

The Taoiseach

I do not wish to prolong this discussion. When I give an indication of when legislation of this nature will be introduced, I offer the best estimate but that does not constitute a cast iron promise that the legislation will be ready at a certain time. It is not possible to make cast iron promises given that new legislative priorities will intervene and sometimes unforeseen difficulties in drafting other legislation might postpone something in the queue. The Deputy will appreciate that this is how these things work. However, this legislation is being taken seriously because it is a matter of concern in a number of constituencies. That is all I can say at this point.

Mr. D. Ahern

A number of years ago this House relaxed the sub judice rule to allow people to say what they wish. Yesterday a Minister who had said he would answer questions until midnight, refused to answer questions because the matter was sub judice.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will call the next item of business.

Mr. D. Ahern

A Cheann Chomhairle, I put you on notice that we wish to raise the review of the sub judice rule at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

An Ceann Comhairle

By all means. That is what the Committee on Procedure and Privileges is for.

Mr. M. Kitt

Are there any Government proposals to introduce legislation on animal welfare in view of the decision yesterday in the Dublin District Court?

The Taoiseach

I am not aware that legislation is promised——

Mr. M. Kitt

Can the Taoiseach say which Minister will deal with it? There is some confusion in that regard.

The Taoiseach

I will endeavour to answer the Deputy's question.

The legislation in place is reasonably adequate and it is a matter of ensuring that it is enforced and that prosecutions are brought successfully by assembling the necessary evidence etc. I am not aware that there is a problem with the terms of existing law in this matter but if the Deputy has any evidence which suggests that is a problem as distinct from enforcement and prosecution I will, of course, have the matter investigated by the relevant Department.

Mr. M. Kitt

Will the matter be dealt with by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry or the Minister for Justice?

Minister for Justice (Mrs. Owen)

The Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry is responsible for legislation on dogs.

Mr. M. Kitt

Cruelty.

Mr. D. Ahern

Following changes in the terms of reference of committees, a term of reference was included whereby the Select Committee on Legislation and Security could review its procedures in regard to access to information. Does the Government have any plans to bring forward a review in this respect to the committee?

The Taoiseach

If I understand properly the terms in which the Deputy stated the question, that is a matter for the committee.

Mr. D. Ahern

In view of the commitment he gave in his Dáil reform proposal, may I ask the Taoiseach if the Government has any proposals in that regard? He made great play of the fact that he would relax access to information and the Official Secrets Acts so that there would be more openness and transparency.

Ms O'Donnell

That is a joke.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy's party is represented on the committee and any proposals it raises with the chairperson will be considered.

Mr. D. Ahern

I assure the Taoiseach that we will do that.

The Taoiseach

I am not in a position to answer on an extempore basis questions raised here on matters of which I have not received notice.

Mr. D. Ahern

The Taoiseach's predecessor did.

A Deputy

Look what happened to him.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. O'Dea

May I ask the Taoiseach if the changes in the guidelines for the semi-State sector announced yesterday by the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications will involve legislation?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am proceeding to item No. 2.

Mr. O'Dea

Will any legislation be made retrospective so as to deal with the alarming——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am proceeding to the business ordered.