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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 17 Oct 1995

Vol. 457 No. 1

Electoral Bill, 1994: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

In my contribution last week I welcomed the attempt to tie up loose ends in terms of electoral procedures. However, the basic problems with our electoral system remain unresolved. I hope as politicians we will accept that our current electoral system is not the best one for the 1990s and beyond. I am glad a committee is in place to deal with constitutional issues and I hope it will consider the electoral system with a view to changing it. Considering the large volume of work that must be undertaken by Deputies as well as Ministers, the present system, while it may provide for continual contact with our constituents, does not allow sufficient time to seriously address the wider problems. I hope this will be considered in future years.

I reiterate my welcome for State funding of political parties. Church gate collections are an unsatisfactory way of collecting money. As an elected representative I found it demeaning to have to stand with supporters at church gates literally begging for money. That is not the way political parties should be funded and I hope that trend will be changed as soon as possible.

There has been much comment in the media about the prospect of the taxpayer funding political parties. We should not ignore the fact that a price must be paid for democracy, and it was paid by those who fought for freedom in this and other countries. As politicians we should be willing to spend money on the development of political parties and politics, which is about forming Governments and formulating policies to develop a country. We should not be apologetic in seeking the maximum possible funding to allow us to do our job properly. When we compare politics throughout Europe and worldwide with politics in Ireland, we are a second rate country in terms of funding for research facilities and so on.

I concur with the remarks of a number of my colleagues last week on the lack of facilities for Members, particularly backbench Members. We are expected to work with the assistance of only one secretary while people in other parliaments and other sectors of the community with a similar volume of work have the assistance of five or six people. One cannot work properly without sufficient resources. I am disappointed that politicians are the last to speak up for themselves. We have the notion that seeking extra facilities, staffing and resources will be sneered at and frowned upon by the electorate. Rather than take that attitude we should ensure we put in place the necessary facilities, particularly research facilities, staffing and resources to do the job properly.

The level of support available particularly to backbench Deputies is insufficient and urgently needs to be improved. Perhaps that is not central to this legislation but when dealing with funding of political parties we should not ignore the fact that the majority of Deputies receive inadequate funding for political campaigns. We also have inadequate staffing in this House and in constituency offices. I hope progress will be made in that regard.

I welcome the improved provision for postal voting but I hope the most recent changes to electoral law will apply to the disabled, elderly and infirm who at present have to register in October of each year whereas the average elector is in a position to have his or her name added to the electoral list up to seven or eight days before an election. I hope the Minister will be able to address that because postal voting has improved things for many people but it needs to be extended and I look forward to his response.

This Bill is welcome, particularly the provision regarding public funding of political parties. There is a public perception that political parties are funded by dubious means and that corporate money is put into political parties. People may get the impression, however, that under the provisions of this Bill political parties will be funded from public funds. I do not think that was ever the intention of the legislation and the Minister referred to this point during his Second Stage speech. The provisions under this Bill will supplement income from other sources. It is well known that Fianna Fáil as well as other parties have always held a national collection, house to house or at the church gate, in rural areas. It is a test of an organisation to carry out that collection and I hope it will always continue. We may create the impression that the problems of funding political parties will end when this legislation is enacted.

The Minister referred to the major disadvantage political parties are at when dealing with employer and farming organisations or any lobby group which have resources at their disposal. I concur with him and I am glad that we will rectify it. I hope the money will be used for research and office facilities, to which the previous Deputy referred. I tabled a question earlier in the year on office facilities. I know that the Office of Public Works and various Ministers of State in that Department had plans to develop what is known as the fisheries yard but that proposal seems to have gone by the board and there is a proposal to have research facilities and offices in Agriculture House.

In recent elections a great deal of money was spent on election literature and television broadcasts but less and less is being spent on posters. That is probably a good thing. Unfortunately we seem to go to extremes when implementing reforms of the electoral system. At one time there were complaints that one could not get into the polling station because there were so many party personnel with their caravans and posters but at the last election the opposite was the case. When the then Government — and my own party was involved — introduced regulations specifying that posters and personnel should be at a distance of 100 metres from the polling station it was widely welcomed but in rural Ireland, where polling stations change quite regularly, sometimes people do not know where they are, whereas in the past it was obvious from the posters. Every party and independent candidate should be entitled to display one poster outside of a polling station as this is very much part of a rural election campaign. I do not believe in an excessive display of posters and in my 20 years in politics, apart from the time I was involved in the by-election I never had an individual poster but always a party ticket poster. It probably had stood to us as a party. It is disappointing when people do not see evidence of an election taking place and I hope we will not be so extreme as to ban posters in future.

It is important that people should be able to vote at their nearest polling station. I know of constituents in County Galway who have to travel 14 or 15 miles to their designated polling station, passing two or three polling stations on the way. That matter should be resolved and it would be quite easy for local councillors and corporation members to sort that out with the county registrar.

There were proposals that there should be a minimum number of electors for each polling station. One suggestion was 1,000 votes per polling station but that would be disastrous in rural areas. In Connemara, where the population is very scattered, people would have to drive long distances to a polling station if such a proposal were introduced. The present position of 200 to 300 voters per polling station is adequate and should be continued.

The Minister referred to simplifying the register, particularly for those who work away from home such as fishermen, transport workers and people on business. I welcome that but I cannot understand why he did not refer in the same way to the special voters' list compiled every year, in County Galway the application has to be received before 25 November each year. This is bureaucratic because not only do people on the special voters' list have to apply each year for inclusion, they are visited by a special presiding officer accompanied by a member of the Garda Síochána at election time. I do not see the need for two people to call on a person with a disability when he is casting his vote. The Minister said that those working away from home can go into the Garda station and need only one person to witness them casting the vote whereas a disabled person has to submit a doctor's certificate with his application each year to get on the special voters' register and two persons have to call on him to enable him to cast his vote. Has the Minister any proposals to change such a bureaucratic approach? I have heard disabled people say in the past that they were frightened out of their wits when they saw a garda come to their house. That does not surprise me. There must be simpler ways of dealing with the special voters list.

I welcome the fact that the commission dealing with constituency revision will be an independent one. We should examine the system in other European countries. In Germany, for example, there is a combination of the list system and the single seat transferable vote. In the past Fianna Fáil proposed the introduction of the single seat constituency but, with hindsight, they have realised that they were wrong and that this would not have meant a single transferable vote. The Germany system has much to recommend it, particularly in the case of a constituency like my neighbouring one of West Galway which has five Deputies. From the town of Gort to the Aran Islands is a huge area and there is much duplication with five Deputies travelling to many meetings throughout a huge stretch of the county. The German system, combining the list system and single seats, would result in a better balance. Within constituencies where there is competition personality cults build up, and these are, unfortunately, very much hyped up by the media. It is a matter of humorous comment in this House that certain Deputies are competing for a small number of votes in a certain area. We should examine the electoral system from that point of view. I welcome the fact that independent candidates will also get some funding and I look forward to hearing details from the Minister.

The question of automation is covered in the Bill. I hope to see the introduction of computerisation soon because of the serious delays in reaching decisions at electoral centres not only when there is a need for a recount but where two candidates in a three seat constituency are elected on the first count and it takes hours to elect the third. The main reason for the delays relates to the distribution of surplus votes. It would be a relief to every candidate in an election if counting were computerised and could begin as soon as the ballot boxes were closed.

Most parties would agree that they had bigger meetings and better rallies when there was a question of getting small subscriptions from members. In the case of trade unions, membership fees are deducted at source, so there is not the same involvement as there used to be. The same is true of political parties.

I am disappointed that the Minister did not refer to the question of student votes. Student voting could be facilitated if, as I have advocated on a number of occasions, we held elections at weekends. The fact that the divorce referendum will be held on a Friday is a welcome move in the direction of Friday or weekend voting at elections. It will give students whose names are on the register of electors the opportunity to vote. Students' names are often removed from the register on the assumption that they will be included in the electoral register in the area where they are studying. However, that does not happen so they should be allowed to remain on the register in their own town or village.

Next year we are to have a referendum with a view to allowing three Senators to be elected by emigrants. I note that the Minister has put no limit on expenditure for Seanad elections. This is interesting because the election of Senators by emigrants could involve a lot of money. Perhaps the Minister will tell us when the referendum will be held, and when he will initiate a debate on the matter. It has been suggested that there be Senators to represent Australia, America and Europe. That would be very nice if it worked, but without a debate we can have no idea how it would work in practice.

What about Africa?

What about Ireland? Is there anything to prevent an Irish person representing emigrants? How can we say that we will have a Senator representing three of the five continents? I hope we can have a debate on that soon. I would prefer if emigrants were allowed to continue to vote in elections for a number of years subsequent to emigrating. However, that does not seem to be the decision of the Government. It wants emigrants to be represented in the Seanad. That is not what the emigrant groups want. They would prefer to have a vote in general elections.

Regarding expenditure on Seanad elections, what would be the cost of bringing the elected Senators home to sit in the Seanad? We would be faced with a very large bill if they were to travel each week to attend meetings of the Seanad.

Regarding funding, the Minister mentioned that there should be an election agent for the party and an election agent for each candidate. I suggest that that agent would have to be an accountant. Given that money will be given to parties and to candidates, double accounting will be necessary and it will be very difficult to work out the aggregate amounts. During an election in Northern Ireland Dr. Joe Hendron was challenged in the courts. He won the case, but at a huge financial cost to himself. Will we face such a situation? The accounting will be further complicated by the fact that advertisements placed by friends of candidates will also be included in the aggregate. That will cause major complications. I hope it does not give rise to court cases, as happened in the North under similar circumstances.

I welcome the Bill and its provisions on party funding, whether in respect of headquarters or for research purposes but, as the Minister is aware, such funding will be only in addition to what parties must obtain from their resources.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Broughan.

I am sure that is satisfactory and agreed.

It should be as clear as night follows day that Democratic Left support the Bill. It will do much to bring us into line with mainstream European democracies. Members are familiar with the slogan, "he who pays the piper, calls the tune" and in a democracy taxpayers and voters, rather than big businesses and vested interests, should call the political tune. Members of this Parliament were not elected to represent small, wealthy and select interest groups, to represent and implement policies on behalf of the electorate.

It is important that people know who is calling the tune. Deputy Kitt stated that Fianna Fáil, like other political parties, does the democratic thing and holds national collections once a year, the implication being that it is the sole source of its funding and I am sure, like all political parties, such funding contributes significantly to the coffers of Fianna Fáil. We must have a level playing pitch.

In a debate such as this, one cannot help but recall the close relationship in the past between Fianna Fáil and business organisations under the title Taca.

The Bill will go a long way towards distancing political parties from what would appear to be the undue influence of certain sectors. While it may be dying out, there was a perception in the past that the building industry was the Fianna Fáil business machine and that all building work was carried out by builders who supported Fianna Fáil. When a political party is linked to an industrial base, such as the building industry, it can be implied that the public is being bypassed and that private house building is grant-aided only to satisfy the demands of the Construction Industry Federation. Because of the funding the Labour Party gets from the trade union movement, it could be implied that the public who elected its members are not being fully represented and that another group is directing the policy of the party. Similarly, there is a perception that Fine Gael is funded to a large extent by large farmers. I hope the Bill levels the playing field. It is interesting that as we debate this Bill people such as Willie Claes of NATO appears to be having great difficulty explaining how money from contracts for the purchase of helicopters may have been diverted to his political forces in Belgium.

Together with the Ethics in Public Office Bill, this Bill will ensure that politicians are no longer open to charges, often unsubstantiated, of undue influence having being exerted on them by vested interests. I hope once and for all it will dispel the suspicions of a brown paper bag culture and that it will also ensure that those who contest elections, as far as possible, do so on a level financial playing field. In a proportional representational system the financial playing field can be particularly bumpy. I am not arguing against the merits of proportional representation. On the contrary, our electoral system has served us extremely well and survived two assassination-like attempts by Fianna Fáil in the past which, in its perpetual search for that elusive overall majority, cast wistful glances at the first-past-the-post system that operates in the United Kingdom. Deputies Dempsey and Hughes implied that we should consider such an electoral system. Proportional representation best represents our diverse electorate and if a proposal to change the system was put before the people for a third time it would again be rejected.

Smaller parties such as the Independents, while elected under the proportional representational system, generally struggle on the financial sidelines. This is particularly true of Democratic Left who refused to jump on board the commercial gravy train of big businesses which, while in the short-term proved lucrative for many parties in the past, compromises both the policies and principles of political parties. The Bill will help reverse this imbalance and ensure that those elected by the people have the financial wherewithal to exercise their mandate and to put forward the views they were elected to express. The legislation consolidates our democracy.

The Bill is two-pronged. As well as providing for the funding of political parties, election expenditure will be capped, something which the public and many Members will welcome. It would be interesting to know the cost involved in producing the tonnes of literature distributed outside polling stations on polling days in the past.

I am concerned that a lengthy lead-in time to elections is not provided for under the Bill and that there are no provisions to regulate electioneering accessories, such as private opinion polls. Congressmen and senators in the United States rent huge billboards to display their photographs as they smilingly welcome people to their respective states. Is there a provision in the Bill to prohibit such activity here which might not necessarily take place in the run-up to an election but would constitute ongoing expenditure?

I would also like to know how we can control unfair competition between myself and other colleagues in my constituency, who are quite wealthy and who can afford to place substantial advertisements in the local papers. They go around advertising the fact that they have the money available to sponsor the local football team and are quite happy to buy the team's kit, provided it has the individual's name displayed. There are many examples of where politicians can circumvent the legislation. Perhaps the Minister, in her response, will explain how we can overcome this.

I welcome the publication of this legislation. I believe it is a balanced and well thought out instrument which will ensure that those elected will serve the people.

Like my colleagues, I also welcome this Bill and pledge wholehearted support for it. It is one of the most important electoral Bills to come before the House in recent times. It includes measures that are central not only to the Irish democratic process but to democracy in any country. The main objective of the Bill is to reform and improve the political environment within which every political party and elected representative must operate. The Bill aims at ensuring that more information will be readily available to the general public, which will hopefully dispel the prevailing cynicism and distrust that exists in relation to the operation of the political system. The Bill also aims at facilitating the integration of the general public into public life. This can only be a good thing for the political system in particular and society in general. The multifaceted approach of this Bill breaks new ground, sets new standards and procedures and, as the Minister of State said in her opening comments, will stimulate an important debate about democracy. It goes hand in hand with the Ethics in Public Office Act, 1995, which will be coming fully into operation shortly.

The statutory basis for an independent constituency commission is a step which will hopefully eradicate any hint of gerrymandering from the political system. The Bill provides that, on the publication of a census report following each census of population, a commission will be established to review the constituencies for Dáil and European Parliament elections. It is unfortunate that the claim of gerrymandering has arisen in the past and has caused much discontent among the electorate. We, as Members of this House, have an obligation as democratically elected public representatives to reform those aspects of the political system that gave rise to claims of gerrymandering. I often wonder why, in my own constituency, the coherent district of Coolock, which is my Dublin City Council ward, has been divided between two constituencies for the past 25 years and more. I have often wondered why a coherent area should be divided.

The provisions of the Bill concerning payments to each political party will also contribute significantly to the political and democratic process. This is the central core of the Bill and is made up of three interrelated aspects: public funding of political parties, disclosure of significant donations and control of election expenditure. While the funding of political parties may seem unreasonable to many people, it is only by ensuring diversity within the political system that choice can be ensured. The main objective of this provision is to facilitate this choice, which is central to the maintenance of democracy. It is only as a result of political diversity that the electorate is able to choose the Government it wishes.

I welcome, for the reason outlined by others, the basic element of funding, which works out at approximately £1 per voter and I recommend that the Minister look at the provision of 10 per cent for Opposition parties on top of that amount. That is something we could look at in a more generous spirit, since many of us or our parties have spent time in Opposition. Politics is an expensive business and the costs are constantly rising. All parties have tried desperately to involve themselves in so many areas. Fundraising can be a timeconsuming and exhausting business. I welcome the provision of funding and the special provision for the training and education of youth and women.

We in the Labour Party are proud of the fact that we have consistently brought forward women public representatives, members of branches and constituencies at all levels. I hope that our target will be to achieve representation similar to that in Sweden, where 43 per cent of MPs are women. My own party also has an active youth section and has produced some outstanding candidates and Members. I hope that is another area we will also be able to develop with proper funding. It is no accident of course that so many other countries — the Scandinavian countries, the United States, France, Belgium and Canada — have had public funding of political parties for many years and have rightly recognised political parties as the workhorses of democracy.

We have seen in recent years how all parties have been burdened with debt. The conservative parties, in particular, have run up enormous debts. My own party has had a much tighter financial and auditing system, mainly because we have been able to spend so little over the years on elections and political activities, by comparison with the larger conservative parties. In general, I welcome that major provision.

Suspicion also surrounds the practice of confidentiality in political contributions and this has led to claims that contributions are being made to influence political decisions. We must create an atmosphere in this House whereby no political party or politician would be seen to be for sale. The best and fairest way of doing that is by the provisions in the Bill relating to disclosure of political donations. While I question the veracity of claims of corruption, I consider it important that we eradicate the suspicion. As long as it exists in the public consciousness we, as public representatives, will never to be free to undertake any measure without being under severe scrutiny and subject to claims of acting for less than honest motives.

The rationale of these measures is illustrated in the fact that the Bill preserves the right to privacy of persons who may wish to make relatively modest contributions to the parties and candidates with whose policies they are in agreement. There has been worry in the past in relation to political contributions to the major conservative parties. There has been reference to the fact that an important politician in the Opposition has accommodation provided to him by supporters. It is areas like that which give concern.

There has been, thoughtout the decades, a feeling that Fianna Fáil, in particular, behaved in some respects like the old Russian Communist Party. It had its apparatchiks throughout the private sector and was able to call on them at times of election and when funding was necessary. The provision limiting election expenditure is a practical measure. The electorate today is highly educated and well informed and any attempt to influence the electorate through excessive spending is an insult to its intelligence. The amount generally the Minister has provided for in this Bill is appropriate. Many speakers have said that huge spending at elections can be ineffective yet my experience is that this is not the case. During the last election, gigantic posters of the present leader of Fianna Fáil appeared in the constituency of Dublin Central and of Mr. Seán Haughey in Dublin North-Central.

And life-size posters of the Minister for Finance, Deputy Quinn.

In Dublin North-Central, there were cars with expensive video with sound systems promoting Fianna Fáil candidates. I often wonder how much money was spent. In the 1989, when I was first a candidate, it was alleged that £150,000 was spent by Fianna Fáil in my constituency. The measure before the House will hopefully end this type of expenditure forever. These are examples where massive spending on posters and so on can actually make an impact.

Deputy Byrne raised an interesting point in relation to when the election period will begin. There could be massive spending outside of election time and maybe not so much in it. That is something the Minister should examine carefully. I understand there was reference to a Member of Parliament, Mr. Joe Hendron, in this regard and our Northern colleagues, who have been in Dublin over the past year, have told us of the difficulties they can have at times in funding themselves throughout the election period. I hope that is something to which the Minister will give some attention.

There is also a reference to the fact that writing for newspapers and appearing on television fairly regularly can be an important benefit to candidates and would-be candidates. Although it cannot be included in the Bill this is a grey area so I wonder what the scenario will be. Some people write for papers and appear on television more regularly than others.

I also welcome the provision for special arrangements to allow transport workers, fishermen and others to vote.

A number of Deputies referred to other areas they would like the Minister to examine, and I support those who said backbench Deputies' facilities are still in the 19th century. Our job is still treated as a low paid and poorly resourced occupation. According to the State Directory ambassadors are paid £80,000 per annum yet, while we have a far harder job, our salaries and expenses are only 40 per cent of that figure. I often wonder how it is decided that certain State employees should get massive salaries while people like us — who are the workhorses of democracy, as one of my colleagues said — are so badly resourced.

I welcome the Bill and I also welcome the measures to enforce it.

I am glad of the opportunity to make some observations on the Electoral Bill, 1994, especially those aspects relating to payments to political parties; the provision of voting arrangements for those who because of their occupation are unable to vote; and the establishment of a commission. It is unlikely that Cavan-Monaghan will figure in any constituency revision for a long time to come. It will remain a five seat constituency for many years because there has been little variation in population from one census to another. Since the heavy emigration of the late 1940s and 1950s the population has levelled off and it will probably remain static.

I feel strongly about the multi-seat constituency system. In five-seater constituencies many people do the circuit, raising their problems with most of the five elected representatives. Government Departments, health boards, county councils and State boards have to send a huge number of replies to elected representatives because of this duplication. It would be interesting to know how many of the five Deputies in such a constituency would have had representations made to them on a particular problem.

I am in favour of the single seat transferable vote system and I hope that some political party will grasp the nettle in the future. In the 1960s I remember discussing the single seat constituency system with the then Minister for Local Government, Kevin Boland, in the Westenra Hotel in Monaghan. We saw the single seat system in operation across the Border in Northern Ireland where bits of constituencies were altered to ensure that one party would have the lion's share of seats. We tried to impress on Deputy Boland the advisability of considering the single seat transferable vote system.

European Parliament constituencies were also mentioned. There are eight counties in the constituency of Connacht-Ulster, a fact that is criticised especially around convention election time in the constituency of Cavan-Monaghan. It would be hard for a candidate from those two counties ever to win a seat in the European Parliament because most of the population, and consequently the voting strength, is in the western part of that Euro constituency. Having said that, Fianna Fáil is pleased with the high level of representation if gets at that level. I could not think of another constituency that is better serviced than we are with advance notifications of measures coming up in the European Parliament as well as details of all schemes. We are getting a continuous flow of information.

I welcome the proposal for payments to political parties although I suppose very little of this funding will ever reach the local constituency organisations. They will, however, be relieved of the obligation to raise funding for the party at national level, so it will be a help.

I was disappointed by the last two speakers who used their time to have a go at Fianna Fáil. It is very petty of Deputy Broughan to criticise Fianna Fáil and then make a token criticism of Fine Gael and Labour. That type of muck spreading does not help politics or politicians. I fought my first election for Fianna Fáil in 1948 and having been involved in the organisation since then, I count myself as decent and honourable as 90 per cent of the people in my constituency. As a Fianna Fáil member I do not like to hear people attacking the party about alleged links with big business. If big business was paying such substantial funds to Fianna Fáil we would not have been in debt.

One continuously hears that type of criticism but the answer was given in the opinion polls last week when 50 per cent of those polled supported Fianna Fáil, while only 10 per cent were for Labour and a small percentage for Democratic Left. I suppose this annoys the critics and so they come back with empty arguments. Fianna Fáil did not have presses to print money nor did the party receive millions of pounds from the Soviet Union or anywhere else. That is my answer to people who make unfounded allegations.

Political parties are very important to the democratic system but it takes massive funding to keep them going. It is very important for parties, especially Opposition parties to have such funding because they come up with alternative policies. Such policy formulation is important because a good Opposition ensures a good Government. One cannot have a reasonable Government without a strong Opposition.

Contributions to political parties have been mentioned and over the past number of years the finger of criticism has been pointed at industrialists. In future industralists will be very slow to contribute to election funds because it is almost certain that if they do their action will be misconstrued. For that reason it is essential that funding be made available.

Future political parties will be in a better position as far as expenditure is concerned because they will know what their budget is and will be able to determine their outlay accordingly. Political parties in many constituencies spend valuable time discussing fund raising methods and pursuing every penny they can. This Bill is welcome in that regard.

The Minister said that women and young people should be positively encouraged in politics. He also said that the amount spent in those areas would be left to the parties' judgment, but that the decision would be open to scrutiny.

Fewer contributions will be made to political parties in future, so there will be less need for disclosure. Individuals will not be allowed to go on spending sprees because of the limitation on expenditure. There is always a strict budget in rural constituencies where money is not easily found. I cannot see any problem as regards living within the budget mentioned in the Minister's speech.

The previous speaker said that personnel, posters and amplification would not be allowed in the vicinity of polling stations. I saw the tactics used at polling stations in the 1980s and, coming from a Border region, I am not sorry that people will not be allowed near them in future. The Minister should examine the possibility of allowing one hoarding per political party which would identify the polling station as there should be some form of identification at polling stations to tell people that an election is taking place.

The Minister mentioned that the limit for constituencies is £25,000. He also said that £10,000 could be spent in a three seat constituency, £12,000 in a four seat constituency and £15,000 in a five seat constituency. In the constituency I represent, we are able to live within the figures and we would have no problem with accountants bringing us to task for overspending.

The explanatory memorandum mentions persons who are unable to vote at polling stations. It states:

Electors in this situation may apply for entry in the postal voters' list. Application for entry in the list will be made at the time of preparation of the register of electors. Applications must be supported by a certificate from the employer, in the case of an employed person, and by a statutory declaration in any other case.

This provision will affect long distance lorry drivers. These people change employers regularly and, therefore, if they are registered with one employer I hope their papers will be transferred if they change employer. They are most in need of this provision.

An incapacitated voter, or someone on his behalf, must make the application each year in October. However, an election could be held every nine or ten months. Incapacitated voters should be dealt with in the same way as those omitted from the register. If people are omitted from the register because of a clerical error, they can register a short time before the election and that should also be the case for incapacitated voters. If people are mobile, they will insist on casting their vote rather than allowing someone to complete the forms for the postal vote. Perhaps the Minister would set a deadline of a month before an election for an incapacitated voter to apply for the postal vote.

Some Deputies mentioned the lack of research facilities for backbenchers. A few years ago a Fine Gael Minister said that backbenchers worked from prepared scripts. I have been in this House for 22 years and I never had a script prepared for me, nor do I see any hope of getting one. I would be looked at if I asked for one in the press office. Research facilities, including those in the Library, should be improved because we have less time to research material for contributions in the House. This means we must become more professional individually and at party level to keep pace. I should like the Minister to re-examine the facilities for incapacitated voters and of postal voting.

I welcome this Bill which demonstrates that at last we are doing something about State funding of political parties. However, in taking these modest measures, we are no great pioneers or trail blazers in facilitating the work of political parties or our democratic structures; rather we are simply following established practice in most other democracies, particularly the newer ones. Indeed, our tardiness in taking this essential step merely reflects our cowardice as legislators in introducing conditions and facilities to enable us properly undertake the work for which we were elected.

Whenever it came to the provision of reasonable conditions and facilities for ourselves in the past, always we backed off or, at the very best, passed the buck to someone else, not through any high motives but rather through fear of what the electorate might think of us.

The provision of funding for political parties, to a significant extent, will remove the fund-raising imperative that has continuously dominated the activities of most of our political parties from their foundations, clearly to be seen from any reading of the minutes of parties in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s when fund raising always was the dominant feature. It is particularly important that the provisions of this Bill will remove a demeaning aspect of politics for Members of this House and, more important, will remove a compromising aspect of politics.

I am not talking about church gate collections which, after Mass, can be an interesting social occasion for everybody. I am not talking about the occasional, modest raffle but about the soliciting of the big bucks now required continuously to run a political party and mount any meaningful election campaign.

We are all aware that much of the funds coming to political parties emanate from their loyal supporters, people who want a party to succeed and prosper because of their belief in its policies, perhaps through inherited allegiance, or for a variety of reasons such as belief in a particular candidate being someone who will make a contribution at national or constituency level. Nonetheless it must be admitted that some funding comes from people with an alternative, if unstated, agenda of hoping to influence decision-making.

Political parties always have been in what I would regard as a very vulnerable financial position, the stark reality to date being that most could not function properly, or at all, without the substantial backing of people and organisations beyond their own fold. This Bill will put in place at least a basic resource to enable a modern party to survive and do its work without undue dependence on outside contributions. As with many other aspects of political life, on the question of funding, perception often is as important, if not more so, than the reality. Therefore, it is of the utmost importance that no political party be seen to be beholden to any group of organisations or individuals for its financing. There is a perception abroad that big backers are rewarded in some way, which has done a major disservice to politicians generally and their standing with the electorate.

The provisions of this Bill encompass a measure of public funding for political parties, affording them some financial independence and will go some way to altering the perception to which I have just referred, as will the other elements of the integrated package the Minister has introduced, such as the requirement to disclose significant political contributions and limits on election spending.

We must remember that the cost of recent elections to most political parties has been shattering. In the course of the 1981 general election it was my duty to introduce a budget for the promotion, publicity and public relations exercise of my party which subsequently was seven times greater than the entire expenditure of my party in the 1977 election. That demonstrates how costs have escalated in the current competitive climate, much of which comes to the surface at election time when, in the heat of battle, very wise financial constraints decided in advance are thrown out the window with colossal sums of money being spent. The limit on spending provided for in this Bill should control that aspect of electioneering without diminishing in any significant way the effectiveness of any campaign or damaging our democratic system.

The electorate will understand the need for and the very positive aspect enshrined in this State funding of political parties, designed — as the Minister of State pointed out — to supplement their income from other sources. I believe the public will also welcome the requirement to disclose the sources of substantial donations. There need be no fear that the new arrangements would lead to even the remotest degree of State control over the independence and policies of political parties. The requirement of parties to indicate the extent of their expenditure in order to encourage participation by women and young persons in political activity will be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to monitor. Any party seeking to make progress on its aims must concentrate on those elements. Therefore, there might well be more to be gained in the long run from leaving this aspect of funding voluntary rather than seeking any degree of compulsory allocation of funds for such specific purposes.

On the disclosure of political donations, I hope the system will not become too top-heavy or bureaucratic which could become an administrative nightmare and lead to a morass of disputes. In this respect well thought out regulations must be enforced, something that will need to be fully teased out on Committee Stage.

I also welcome the statutory establishment of an independent constituency commission to handle the revision of Dáil and European Parliament constituencies following each successive census, thus rendering permanent the type of commission that handled the more recent constituency revisions. It did a good job by and large. However, I will never understand how sensible, eminent people like those who served on that commission introduced the constituency of Longford-Roscommon into the Irish political landscape thereby crossing the great natural boundary of the Shannon, crossing provincial boundaries, the European constituency boundaries and, if one reverts to ancient times, crossing the strongholds of rival chieftains. However, whatever aberrations that commission membership may have had, it has to be said its revision was a major improvement on the days of moving quotas in the Custom House, presided over by the incumbent Minister for Local Government, with the census report in one hand and tally sheets in the other.

The Minister of State also said it was his intention to speed up general election counts. I am glad he is taking on that task, the best and simplest way of doing so being to begin the count at midnight on the night of an election. There is no reason to continue as though the ballot boxes were being brought to counting centres by horse and cart. What is wrong with beginning the count at midnight, as is the case in most other democracies, immediately after balloting has ceased and the ballot boxes have been received?

The Minister of State has also told us that at some future date voting and counting at elections will be fully automated but stated, realistically, that is some distance way. Why? We have the expertise to design and provide the necessary programmes and technology. I do not believe it would be excessively expensive. The Minister for the Environment should pursue that, we have a good name — Howlin — for the machines on the counters. In the meantime he should give instructions and necessary funding to returning officers to ensure that there is adequate space at count centres for party activists who have devoted their time to knocking on doors during the three or four weeks in the run-up to an election, to gain admission to see the fruits of their labours. It is regrettable that candidates cannot oblige their canvassers by providing them with tickets to gain admission to counts because the centres are too small. We accept there must be movement and that returning officers must do their work but they should be given instructions. If they were given the necessary funding they would be pleased to provide enough space to accommodate everybody.

Although it is probably a matter for another day I was disappointed that the Minister did not apply himself to the possibility of a fixed Dáil term. I suppose the present one is as near as we will get to a fixed term, but it is a matter we should examine. It could be introduced by way of minor constitutional amendments.

I have been a great supporter of the PR system and the multi-seat constituency on the grounds that, to an exceptional extent, it returns parties in proportion to the support they receive from the people. In that regard, it is the best system anywhere in the world. However, it has its drawbacks, a major one being because of multi-seat constituencies and the pressures to which they give rise, Ministers charged with running major Departments must spend at least 60 per cent of their time on constituency work, otherwise they will not be re-elected. There is no point in being a great Minister if one is not prepared to carry out constituency work. It is important to examine our electoral system. My preference is for a system like the German one where half the candidates are elected under a PR system from constituencies and the other half elected through a list system. If such a system were introduced here, half the Deputies in the Dáil would not have particular obligations to constituencies and could devote all their time to their work as legislators, the basic work of a TD. That might give inordinate power to parties, but so be it. It would be preferable and an advance on the present system.

I welcome the Bill and hope it is only the beginning in terms of Members of the Oireachtas providing proper facilities for themselves, such as the provision of a constituency secretary as well as a Dáil secretary, to carry out the work for which they were elected. That is a basic service Members have not provided for themselves, they do not have the courage to do so for fear of what the public would say about it. Deputies need such basic services and proper research facilities. What Opposition Deputy has had the luxury — it should not be a luxury — or the opportunity of properly researching a speech in this House unless it was carried out by a Department. I have been a Member of this House for 14 or 15 years and I had an opportunity and the facility on only one occasion to carry out research on a speech with which I was satisfied and proud. We should provide ourselves with such facilities and pay TDs a salary appropriate to their work and responsibilities. If we fail to do that, we will also fail to attract into politics and this House the talent that it needs.

I am pleased to have an opportunity to contribute to this debate. I note Deputy Nealon's point regarding the facilities given to Government and Opposition backbenchers. Opposition Deputies who do not have vast resources on which to draw are unable to employ research assistants and Deputies who wish to retain their seats in the next election must devote the majority of their time to important constituency work. However, more time and facilities should be available to Deputies to carry out the necessary research to assist them in making meaningful contributions in the House. During the past number of years facilities have improved and there will be further improvements. A comparison of the facilities available to members of parliaments throughout Europe and elsewhere reveals how far behind we are in that regard. I understand there are Government plans to improve the information network and to install an internet on computers within the Dáil. That would facilitate Deputies in carrying out research to enable them to make more detailed contributions to the debate which has not been the case in the past.

This Bill refers to electoral reform. It has five main purposes including the establishment, on a statutory basis, of a commission to revise Dáil and European Parliament constituencies; to provide for payments to political parties; to provide for the disclosure of substantial donations received by political parties, Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas and the European Parliament and candidates at elections; the imposition of limits on election expenditure by political parties and candidates and voting arrangements for persons unable, by reason of their occupation, to vote at their polling stations.

The principle of an independent constituency commission has been accepted by all parties for some time. The arrangements in place have also been accepted and have worked well since the first constituency commission was put in place. Nobody has argued about the current procedures although a number of people, with justification, have argued strongly about the results of various reports. The main questions that have arisen relate to drawing and redrawing boundaries. As many speakers mentioned, especially those representing constituencies in the west, the redrawing of provincial and county boundaries does not make sense. Did those who sat on constituency commissions consider the impact of their decisions at ground level?

Deputies in the west and in the midlands find it nonsensical that constituencies cross the Shannon in different counties and provincial areas. We should look at how this affects people rather than at statistical returns. My constituency has not been revised since 1977. On the last occasion I had hoped to get back some of my hinterland, which is classed as part of Cork city but, in reality, is part of east Cork, a rural area. The commission did not see fit to do as I wished. It is right to set up an independent commission enshrined in law, otherwise, there could be a recurrence of the gerrymandering which backfired badly in 1977. If the Minister wants to argue that this legislation will ensure the independence of the constituency commission he will have to alter the Bill. If this commission is to be independent, why should it have to wait until the Minister signs an order to allow it to function after each census? A Minister might, for political reasons, delay the commencement order for such a commission. When the report is made, it is up to the Government to draw up the legislation to give effect to recommendations. Political considerations could lead to unnecessary delays.

If the Minister wants to ensure the independence of the commission, surely its composition should reflect this. Logic requires that public servants, rather than the Government, should decide its membership. We already have precedents for taking this approach in the Public Offices Commission, established under the Ethics in Public Office Act, and in the ad hoc commission on the divorce referendum. To copperfasten independence, it is surely also essential that the secretariat should be independent. It is noteworthy that members of the Public Offices Commission, in the Ethics in Public Office Act, are explicitly stated to be independent in their functions. There is no corresponding provision in this Bill and perhaps in reply the Minister would refer to this.

I welcome the provision for payments to political parties. For many years political parties have had great difficulty in funding their activities. However, the complexities of political activity have increased enormously over the years and there is greater need for a more professional approach. Information must be up-to-date and it is necessary to have the back-up staff which costs money. In dealing with the IFA, IBEC, the unions and people in opposition one must have special advisers and qualified researchers. These people do not come cheap. An individual, frontbencher of any political party, without the backing of an adequate research team will not achieve anything.

From where does the money come? In the past it came from church gate collections. Anyone involved in a political party is aware that the church gate collections have fallen considerably. Compared with 20 years ago, the figures have dropped 50 per cent in volume, not in value. If inflation is taken into account the figures have reduced by, perhaps, 80 per cent. The other sources of funding are golf classics, raffles, dances etc. This goes on year in year out and it tires people out. It sickens the people from whom the money is being collected since the same people support not only one political party but all political parties. It is a heavy burden on the community. The other source, which is referred to in the media, is the big business people who fund all political parties. The inference in many cases is that they will influence Government decisions but I do not believe they do.

It is important to have confidence in Government. Confidence in political parties and Government will grow if they are seen not to depend on any outside source. That is why State funding is important for democracy. All political parties in Europe, except the UK, are funded by State sources to a large degree. In the UK, the Tories and the Liberals are supported by business sources and Labour is supported by the unions. I welcome the provision for funding. It has come late in the day but it will help to instil confidence in Government.

The disclosure of donations is a matter about which many peoole have raised questions, particularly the limits of disclosure. The disclosure threshold proposed for a political party is £4,000 and for individual members and candidates £500. The suggestion that £5,000 or £4,000 would buy off a political party deserves to be treated with contempt and that is the implication in these figures. If we were talking about £4,000 or £5,000 for an individual and £20,000 or £30,000 for a party there would be some justification for including such figures but the figures in the Bill are ridiculous.

Donations to branches of parties, officers or members of a party will be deemed to have been made to a party. There are 63 cumainn in my constituency. Every parish has a cumainn and some have two or three. Will a donation of £10 by a party worker towards the cost of petrol have to be disclosed? That is the type of question being raised.

Another question concerns the auditing of returns. The Bill states that control of expenditure will operate through a system of agents and that an election agent will be responsible for expenditure on behalf of each candidate. It must be remembered, however, that most election agents are politically astute. We are in the business of politics when we are running for elections. Our aim is to get as many votes as possible but my experience has been that votes are not won as a result of major expenditure. Our party spent less than £5,000 on the last five elections in which I ran as a candidate but we managed to win more than 40 per cent of the vote and two seats on those occasions. I am aware that a large amount of money is spent on elections in other areas but it does not result in a large number of seats being won. It is suggested that if money is splashed around during an election it will result in gaining more seats but that is not the case.

The agents involved in making these returns will be thinking in a political rather than a financial way. Problems will arise in relation to returns and people will be set up with the objective of bringing down somebody who is completely innocent of any misdemeanour but who, through some technical oversight, may get into trouble.

I welcome the extension of postal voting for people who are unable, by reason of their occupation, to vote at polling stations. It is important that this facility be made available to people who genuinely require it.

Deputy Eric Byrne made derogatory remarks about Fianna Fáil. We are used to hearing such remarks from Deputy Byrne and I did not expect anything different from him this evening. He mentioned various aspects of Fianna Fáil fundraising. Did the founders of Deputy Byrne's party have any novel methods of fundraising? It would be interesting to hear how they raised their funds in the early days. Deputy Broughan referred to major expenditure by Fianna Fáil. He covered himself by referring to "alleged" expenditure of major amounts. People only use the word "alleged" when they are trying to create a smokescreen around what they are saying but they are still throwing the dirt and that is what Deputy Broughan was doing. What he did not mention, however, was that the first person to bring out a life-size poster during an election campaign was the Minister for Finance, Deputy Quinn, a member of Deputy Broughan's party. The Deputy should get out of the glasshouse before he starts throwing stones.

I welcome the Bill, some aspects of which will need to be tightened up on Committee Stage. I look forward to a further detailed discussion of the Bill on Committee Stage.

I congratulate the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy Allen, on this timely Bill. It is vitally important that a commission be established on a statutory basis to revise Dáil and European Parliament constituencies; provide for payment to political parties; provide for the disclosure of substantial donations received by political party members of both Houses of the Oireachtas and the European Parliament and candidates at other elections; impose limits on election expenditure by political parties and candidates and provide voting arrangements for persons unable, by reason of their occupation, to vote at their respective polling stations.

I wish to refer to the rejigging of constituencies that has occurred since the foundation of the State. For too long constituencies were gerrymandered for political purposes and the time is right for this commission to be established to revise Dáil and European Parliament constituencies. It is vitally important that constituencies be compact and manageable and not redrawn for the benefit of certain political parties. It is essential also that rural constituencies be preserved along county boundaries and, as far as possible, the division of these electoral areas should be avoided.

I wish to refer to certain divisions of constituencies that occurred during my time as a Member of this House. Some months following my election to this House in 1981, part of the Beara Peninsula, from Castletownbere to the Dursey Sound, Dursey Island, Eyeries and Ardgroom, was transferred to the South Kerry constituency to enable a certain party to hold two seats in that constituency. I had worked for the people in that area since I entered the political fray in 1960 when I stood in the local election. I was a raw recruit from the village of Goleen, seven miles from Mizen Head, with nothing behind me other than the Atlantic ocean and the seagulls. The only bright light behind me was the Fastnet lighthouse which provided me with four votes. However, progress intervened and the lighthouse was automated, reducing by four the voting strength of the area. I worked diligently on Cork County Council for the people of that part of Beara for approximately 20 years. Yet they were denied the right to elect me to this House. This is a sad reflection of what has happened over the years.

People who live in densely populated areas do not realise the hardship suffered by politicians who live in remote areas or peninsulas. The total voting strength in the village of Goleen is 235, which is far short of the quota required for a Dáil seat. My constituency includes the Mizen Head Peninsula where I was born, the Muntervary Peninsula and the Beara Peninsula, all of which are thinly populated. As a member of Cork County Council I represent the Schull electoral area which includes those three peninsulas. Some of the areas I represent on the council are more than 60 miles from where I live, that is Dursey Island and Dursey Sound, while the only town the Schull electoral area can boast of is Bantry. Many Deputies do not realise the way public representatives labour in rural Ireland and the efforts they make to meet people in thinly populated areas.

The constituency of Cork South-West embraces those three peninsulas and stretches from Dursey Island on the Beara Peninsula, half way up the Kenmare Estuary to midway between Ardgroom and Kilmakilloge and as far as the tunnel which marks the county boundary between Glengariff and Kenmare. The newly redrawn constituency includes the electoral areas of Ahill and Douce. My constituency also stretches from the Borlin Valley to the Pass of Keimaneigh, down to Cousane Gap, as far as the outskirts of Dunmanway, across to the village of Ballineen, which is a co-village of Enniskean, and on to Bandon where one follows the Bandon river as far as Inishannon and to within two miles of Cork Airport where one takes a right turn to Belgooly and finally to Kinsale.

I represent one of the greatest maritime constituencies on this island. The gerrymandering over the years not only led to the inclusion of the area west of Castletownbere on the western end of the Beara Peninsula in the constituency of south Kerry — this was to serve a certain purpose — but it also annexed Borlin, Coomhola, Cappabue and split the little village of Kealkil to gain an extra seat in Cork North-West. Regardless of how one carves up a constituency the people will not forget their representatives if they are worth anything; it is the people who make the decisions.

The villages of Ballineen and Enniskean are jointly linked and could be described as a town. However, while the inhabitants of Ballineen can vote for me or any other candidate who stands in Cork South West the inhabitants of Enniskean are denied that privilege. This clearly shows that the time is right to set up an independent commission to redraft constituencies. I will not support any future legislation until such time as we have set up a special commission which will ensure that it cannot benefit a certain party. Regardless of how one looks at it, constituencies should not extend over county boundaries and council electoral areas should not be divided for party political purposes.

Up to 50 per cent of the Members of this House are also members of local authorities and have served their areas well. Despite this the people for whom they have worked so hard to have potholes filled, blue cards for cattle issued and medical cards restored, may be denied the right to vote for the candidate of their choice in Dáil elections. That is not the correct formula. It is clearly evident that certain bodies work against what I have outlined. I hope under this legislation that this racket will be stamped out in no uncertain terms.

The time is now right to make payments from the Exchequer to each political party to alleviate, to some extent, the greed and graft in election contests. I welcome the provisions dealing with the disclosure of substantial donations received by political parties, Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas, members of the European Parliament and individual candidates at election time. Will it be possible to monitor the payment of substantial donations from outside the State under the legislation? I have reason to believe that such donations have been forwarded by people residing outside the State to certain individuals to fight elections. How does the Minister propose to monitor the payment of such subscriptions? Will it be possible to make them under the cloak of anonymity?

I was first elected to local government in 1967 seven years after I fought my first political contest. I have never received any substantial gift from anyone. I walked into Leinster House through the front door on Kildare Street, not by the back door. I received no favours, such as a Seanad nomination. I relied on the sincerity of the people I represent. Since I was first elected to this House in 1981 I have been trying to reduce my bank overdraft. I have nothing to hide so far as secret contributions are concerned.

It is of paramount importance that limits be imposed on election expenditure by political parties and that accounts of such expenditure by each candidate be furnished by election agents after each election. How does the Minister propose to monitor the payment of donations by individuals residing inside and outside the State if they are still inclined to make subscriptions to their favoured candidates?

I welcome the provisions under which arrangements will be made to facilitate persons unable, by reason of their occupation, to vote at their respective polling stations. I have been advocating for years that this right should be granted to every person unable to attend their polling station owing to the fact that they are engaged in their work in another part of the country or abroad. I seek an assurance from the Minister that these arrangements will apply to students attending third level colleges, commercial travellers, bus and lorry drivers, fishermen, people who are ill or confined to hospital and any other section of the community absent from their usual residence on polling day because of work commitments. It should also be possible for elderly persons already entitled to a postal vote on health grounds to retain this right automatically.

I ask the Minister to consider the question of Sunday voting. I understand this is customary in almost every European country and I see no reason it cannot be introduced here.

Tá sé deacair labhairt díreach tar éis an Teachta Sheehan, agus an méid iontach a bhí le rá aige.

Is suimiúil an Bille é seo. Aontaím le mórán de na moltaí atá ann ach tá moltaí freisin atá amaideach agus moltaí freisin nach bhféadfaí a chur i bhfeidhm. Mar sin ba iontach an rud a bheith ar thuras in iar-dheisceart Chorcaí ar feadh ceathrú uair a chloig.

I was relieved when Deputy Crowley entered the Chamber. He arrived just in time, before any further territory was captured by Deputy Sheehan.

Under this Bill a commission will be established on a statutory basis. I was on the point of surrendering when Deputy Sheehan was making one of his attacks on the south Kerry area. I am sure he did not mean anyone on this side of the House any harm——

I was very lenient.

The commission will have a difficult job because, with the best will in the world and with no axe to grind, individual candidates and parties will be discommoded by whatever boundary changes are recommended. The Minister of State was one of the people affected by the most recent changes, probably to his advantage. It is frustrating for anyone who lives near a county boundary, as Deputy Sheehan and I do, to see people for whom they have worked so hard transferred to another area.

On the question of constituency size, Deputy Sheehan made his point well in terms of the difficulties encountered by the representatives of south-west Cork.

Similar difficulties are encountered by the representatives of rural constituencies with no major centres of population where Deputies are expected to be in areas far apart at more or less the same time. I sympathise with the Deputies who represent County Mayo, none of whom could be expected to provide the kind of service required. The Deputies who represent County Clare encounter similar difficulties. They suffered when constituency boundaries were redrawn particularly when, on one occasion Fianna Fáil was not in power, the entire Connemara area stretching up to Clifden was included in North Clare. It was quite daft. That would not be possible under the present commission. Nevertheless some difficulties will arise.

The quality of work carried out by the public representative should be taken into account. Almost every speaker has stated vehemently that Members are not given the resources to do their job well. That is especially true as regards research. Many Deputies said they have seldom come to the House having adequately examined legislation because they do not have the time or resources to do so. Most Bills update existing legislation and it would be impossible for Members to trace the evolution and development of the legislation without specialist support. There is no sign that such support will be made available.

It is a pity we did not take the opportunity to consider the advantages and disadvantages of our electoral system. Our European neighbours use different systems such as the list system in Portugal. One element of it which would concern me is that it gives power to relatively few people in a central position. Nevertheless it would get over some of the difficulties which beset us in our system. There is much support for a single seat constituency system, but there are advantages and disadvantages. It would be interesting to have an independent commission report to the Dáil on that aspect.

People who were opposed to improving conditions for Oireachtas Members during the Cork by-election have been converted and are suddenly in favour of improvements for Ministers of State and others. That was unfashionable ten months ago.

The status of the secretariat of the commission is unclear. It should be independent of Government and that may well be the case. It also seems that the commission is established only when the Minister decides rather than automatically after a new census. That ought not to be the case. Since the results of a census could be available nine or ten months before an election there could be a temptation to let the commission's work wait until after the election. It ought to happen automatically and the commission's decision should be automatically enforced.

Not many people outside politics understand the role of the permanent secretariat of political parties, the amount of work they do and the costs associated with having them in place. The role of the party is important in this. The case for payments to political parties should stand alone. Two provisions in the Bill — the disclosure of donations and the limit on spending at elections — appear to be thrown in as a sop to the public as if there were a fear the people would say payments should not be made to political parties and that the bad lads of politics, in this case ourselves, must be adequately controlled. I have no problem with the principle of control but it will not work.

As regards the limit above which a donation must be disclosed, it would have been more honest to set a limit and say any donation made above that will be put into a central fund as is the case with some anonymous donations. Some parties receive quite substantial transfers from trade unions and other sources. Why would they not be considered in the same light? I do not know if the principle of disclosure addresses what the people think it ought to address.

Donations include money, property, goods and services. Occasionally some of us are fortunate enough to receive the help of professional people. It seems to be suggested that if such a service were provided free of charge it would not be included under the services provided for in the Bill but it is not clear that is the case. If such services are made available Members should be encouraged to avail of them.

I have sympathy with the public offices commission which must ensure that the provisions are adhered to. At best its job will be difficult and at worst extremely frustrating. If people receive amounts above the prescribed limits I am sure they will have ways and means of getting around the requirement, otherwise there will be many cheques for £499.99 to ensure they remain within the limit. This area could lead to a rash of litigation or at least very wasteful paperwork.

My party has 150 branches in my constituency and I feel sorry for the person who takes on the task of ensuring that the paperwork is put together at election time and presented in the prescribed form under the legislation. It will be an impossible task.

I have no difficulty with the limit on expenditure, probably because I will never be in a position to spend £12,000 on an election. I have difficulty with the idea of trying to keep tabs on how much is spent where and when within 70 days of an election. Whether or not one was successful one would have a busy two months looking for receipts, etc. and putting them in order. I cannot help but feel that this is all a smokescreen to hide a certain embarrassment that we are bold enough as politicians to believe the State ought to make a contribution to the political system through the various parties. We would have been much better advised to put our case for public expenditure on political parties and the political system——

I hesitate to interrupt the Deputy but the time has come to proceed to other business.

Debate adjourned.
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