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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Oct 1995

Vol. 457 No. 2

Private Members' Business. - Development of Semi-State Sector: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Molloy on Tuesday, 17 October 1995:
That Dáil Éireann regrets the failure of the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications to implement a coherent strategy for the semi-State sector under his control and calls on the Minister to bring forward a comprehensive plan for the strategic development of those companies over the next five years.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:
"Dáil Éireann supports the comprehensive strategies for the future of the semi-State sector as outlined inA Government of Renewal; strongly endorses the role of the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications in implementing these strategies in the commercial State companies under his aegis; and notes the successful actions taken to date in implementing these strategies and the positive response of the State companies”.
—(Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications.)
Debate resumed on the following amendment to amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:
"demands the immediate and unqualified withdrawal of the outrageous allegations by the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications regarding corruption in the semi-State sector; condemns the appalling behaviour of the Minister in this whole affair; and calls on the Government to take the necessary measures now to repair the enormous damage caused as a result of the Minister's total loss of credibility with the semi-State companies".
—(Deputy B. Ahern.)

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this motion and to express my sense of revulsion and anger at the manner in which the Minister with responsibility for the semi-State sector has undermined it, the directors of the various boards, the management teams, the employees and the companies themselves by his outrageous allegations of surveillance and cosy cartels which he has never substantiated. He abused the privilege of this House last Tuesday week by attacking the reputations and characters of three private citizens via allegations and innuendo which have been shown to be wrong and baseless.

Most sinister of all was the use made of CIE officials who were wheeled out almost in straitjackets to support the Minister's version of events relating to the sale of the Horgan's Quay site. I agree with the journalist, Vincent Browne, who stated in The Irish Times today that this is the most serious issue to emerge so far in this affair.

This morning he further asked: "How was it contrived that a well respected executive of CIE, surrounded by the CIE lawyer, senior CIE executive and a public relations expert would agree to tell what happened at this meeting only under such extraordinary conditions, prearranged conditions which obscured the crucial piece of information that Ambrose Kelly did not participate in the negotiations"? This represents an abuse of public servants and is scandalous behaviour. No Minister should put public servants under such pressure. This Minister is intent on saving his own political skin at any cost and will do anything to preserve his position.

Last Tuesday week the Minister deliberately used the sale of this site as a diversionary tactic to shift the focus from his allegations of surveillance and cosy cartels, despite the fact that the Craig Gardner report stated that the proper procedures were followed. In addition to that the Minister, as Damien Kiberd put it last week in The Sunday Business Post, dragged the name of the Cork property developer, Owen O'Callaghan through the mire for no good reason. The site in question was valued twice by professional valuers. Colin Dowling said it was worth £450,000 while Lisneys said it was worth £475,000. The agreed price was over £603,000.

Most reprehensible of all was the huge play the Minister made of the fact that not a single penny had been paid for the site, even though the contract had only been issued days prior to his speech. It is inconceivable that the Minister did not know these contracts had been issued, or that he had not scrutinised them before they went out. If he did, he clearly misled the Dáil without any shadow of doubt.

The concept of a science and technology park at this site is a very good one. Cork is not well endowed with such sites. The IDA no longer has resources to acquire them at will. Clearly the involvement of the private sector in the development of industrial sites and in the promotion of industrial development is one we should encourage. Cork needs more jobs and industry. It has huge unemployment problems. Cork has lost a good project because of a political vendetta. I am certain of this. Certain senior people in Fine Gael blamed Owen O'Callaghan for leaking the Hugh Coveney story to The Sunday Business Post. The fact is that they got the wrong man. The Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications also got the wrong man. He made ongoing allegations of surveillance and had no evidence to back them up. The Minister has been guilty of the most unethical behaviour, destroying reputations and engaging in character assassination. In the words of Sam Smith this morning, the Minister has sunk to old lows in Irish public life.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this important debate on the semi-State sector, because in all the drama and hype of the past few weeks it seemed on some occasions, in regard to the contributions from the Opposition parties, that the overall policy objectives and needs of workers and consumers were being lost sight of.

A secure and prosperous future for the commercial semi-State sector is important to Democratic Left and to this Government. When we sat down last December to negotiate a possible programme for government with Fine Gael and Labour this issue was close to the top of our agenda, and the priority it received in the negotiations is reflected in the strong commitments which were included in the Programme for a Government of Renewal. In view of the deliberate attempts by those on the other side of this House to distort the intentions of this Government and to frighten workers in this sector, let me quote what the programme says:

This Government will revitalise public enterprise. Policy will change from a reactive to a more interactive approach. It is recognised that dramatic change will occur in State companies. The twin drivers of technological change and EU competition rules will significantly affect what were once "natural monopolies" in the State sector.

Our approach to these inevitable forces will be to ensure that all changes in these companies will be managed in the best interest of employees, taxpayers and consumers. Employment maximisation within the competitive environment will be a key objective and the development of these companies will be a priority.

State assets will not be sold except where it protects employment and is in the long-term strategic interest of the company and its stakeholders... Opportunities for expansion to utilise the bank of skills in these companies will be encouraged.

Commercial State bodies will be given a clear commercial mandate and clarity in the financial targets which measure their performance. Where social obligations are imposed, they should be paid for separately.

The Government remains committed to these principles and the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Lowry, will have our full support in implementing them.

Public enterprises have made an immeasurable contribution to economic and social development here over six decades, they have, often in the most difficult circumstances and frequently with little or only grudging support from a succession of governments, provided a range of badly needed services for the public and tens of thousands of reasonably well paid jobs for workers.

We should remember that in most cases public enterprises were established because of a refusal or an inability of private enterprise to do the job.

Semi-State companies were established to provide a national transport system and to process sugar because privately owned companies in these sectors had failed. They were established in air transport and electricity generation where private firms were unable or refused to provide the massive investment required.

Despite some spectacular failures, the commercial semi-State companies have served this country well and those who work in them have the right to be proud of their contribution. This country would have been economically and socially poorer without their contribution and their effort.

The commercial semi-State companies like Telecom Éireann, CIE and the ESB employ more people than any private enterprise company and are hugely important. Between them they employ some 60,000 people and have a turnover of more than £4 billion each year.

As the Programme for Government notes, the twin drivers of technological change and EU competition rules are radically altering the environment in which these companies operate, and if they want to survive and prosper they must change. Anyone who tries to suggest that there is no need for change is not a friend of the semi-State sector or its employees.

Many of the employees and most of the trade union leadership now accept the need for radical change. This approach is best illustrated by the progressive step the Telecom unions took last year when they published their document "The Future of Telecommunications". Rather than waging a futile battle to resist inevitable change, they set out to influence the sort of change that will take place and unions in other areas are now following suit.

The best way to effect the change that everyone agrees is needed and to ensure the future of the companies is through a partnership approach, co-operation between the Government, the boards of the companies and the workers. Despite the criticism of the Minister, Deputy Lowry, by some trade union leaders, the Minister has in fact shown himself to be far more open to innovation and change in the interest of workers than any previous occupant of this office.

One of the most amusing aspects of the events of the past few weeks has been the efforts of Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats to depict themselves as friends of the semi-State workers. They must think that those who work in the sector have very short memories. People remember the outrageous deal that Deputy Brennan brokered in 1991 when he sold the B & I to a hand-picked purchaser against the wishes of workers and despite the vehement opposition of the chairman and board.

Indeed could anything greater contrast the record of this Minister and his predecessor than their performance in regard to Aer Lingus and Aer Rianta? Deputy Cowen's handling of Aer Lingus — and the contributions of Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn and Deputy Brennan before him — brought the company to the verge of collapse. Under Deputy Cowen, there were industrial disputes and civil disorder at the airport. In contrast Minister Lowry has backed up the groundbreaking agreement on employees' participation in Aer Lingus recently agreed between management, unions and employees. In Aer Rianta he has given wholehearted support to the major innovation of a compact between management and staff under the umbrella of the joint union group which will facilitate productivity changes in the years ahead.

These models can be followed in other companies. The Government, as the stakeholder on behalf of the public, is committed to securing change through a process of dialogue, consultation and negotiation. All State enterprises have the skills and expertise in management and workforce to meet the major challenges stemming from increased competition and deregulation. From my contacts with workers in that sector I sense a tremendous commitment to face up to the problems posed by globalisation, competition and restructuring.

We in Democratic Left see the commercial semi-State sector securing its future by setting new standards of excellence in terms of performance and customer service. In my view that sector can be at the forefront of technological innovation, using the collective intelligence of workers and managers to develop new flexible and imaginative strategies to respond to the needs of tomorrow's world.

This, of course, means being willing to change old structures which inhibit the capacity to compete and grow in new circumstances. The prospect of shared ownership along Aer Lingus lines, where employees have become shareholders, offers a model for this and there must also be increased customer involvement in such enterprises. We also welcome the creation of a number of viable subsidiary companies with the capacity to adapt to particular needs and, where necessary, raise their own capital to fund further development and innovation. Far from accepting the inevitability of decline or privatisation, the semi-State sector offers the possibility of a new model of socially responsible enterprise that will be efficient, flexible and commercially viable. It can do this because, unlike private enterprise, it can offer economic, social and environmental responsibility combined with public accountability and shared ownership. Because I believe in a good future for the commercial semi-State sector, I fully support the demands of the Minister, Deputy Lowry, for the highest possible standards from all concerned with the board and management of those companies.

We must not have any element of a double standard which expects accountability, efficiency and effectiveness from employees but does not demand similar standards from those at the highest level. I have confidence in the Minster's determination to ensure that only one standard will apply, the highest possible standard of accountability. If we do not have this we will face a continuing cycle of cynicism and doubts among workers and the public about the motives of those at the top.

We require an atmosphere in semi-State companies that will facilitate the growth of mutual respect and real partnership between management and workers. There must be public confidence in those charged with the management and direction of those companies. The people are correct to demand value for money and the transparency to see they are getting it. It is our responsibility as politicians to restore public confidence in the commercial semi-State sector and build morale among the workers. We must remove any semblance of an inner circle of power brokers linked to a golden circle in the business world using the power and privilege of the political system for personal gain.

I have never believed that corruption or malpractice was widespread in the public sector. It is more as the Minister, Deputy Lowry, stated last August, that the system is flexible enough to allow a few people to manipulate affairs to their advantage. The shocking details we heard last week of the manner in which the Horgan's Quay site sale was conducted is a vivid example of this.

It is unfortunate the report of the task force did not receive more attention from the media or the Opposition when it was published by the Minister last week. As well as offering assurances that the control ethos is strong in the commercial State companies it also made a number of important proposals for reforms and improvements. I was particularly pleased to hear the Minister state that he intended to devolve further power to the boards by giving them the authority and necessary flexibility to operate in an increasingly competitive environment.

The Minister also accepted in principle six recommendations with regard to the boards of commercial State companies which can only improve the quality of those in charge of those vital interests and most important among these is the principle that people appointed as directors should be appointed solely on the basis of their experience, competence and expertise.

I do not intend to go over all the matters covered in detail in the media other than to say I believe the Minister, Deputy Lowry, is an honest man who acted reasonably at all times on the basis of information available to him. Deputy Ahern addressed a question to Democratic Left last night. He asked if we stood with the Minister or with the semi-State workers. Our first concern is the interest of the workers in those companies and that can be guaranteed only by the implementation of the Government programme. The Minister is implementing that programme and in doing so he will have our full support.

I will finish by putting a question to the two Deputy Aherns, as Deputy Dermot Ahern is smiling like a Cheshire cat.

Has the Minister made a decision yet? Will he stand fully behind Minister Lowry when he makes the difficult decisions?

Does Fianna Fáil stand over its appointment of one of its own members, the director of elections for the Dublin South Central by-election, Mr. Dermot O'Leary, as chairman of CIE given what we now know of his taste for international travel at the taxpayer's expense and his flair for facilitating sweetheart property deals?

That speech must have been written a few weeks ago.

One of the most dishonest features of what was generally a very dishonest performance by the Opposition parties last week and again in this debate has been the attempt by Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats to somehow link the efforts of the Minister to install proper procedures for the disposal of public property——

What about Farranfore?

——to an alleged blanket denigration of the performance and conduct of the workers in semi-State companies. The events of recent weeks, as Fianna Fáil is well aware, have nothing to to do with the workers in CIE or elsewhere and everything to do with the consequences of the traditional patronage system operated by Fianna Fáil in office. It is regrettable that despite the minimal representation of worker-directors, workers generally in those companies do not have a say in important decisions; blame does not attach to them for the failure of existing procedures.

In any event, few workers will be taken in by the totally phoney spectacle of Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats posing as defenders of workers and State companies——

The Minister referred to patronage. What about the 750 appointees of the Government?

——which is about as convincing as the result of Saddam Hussein's recent referendum. Workers in these companies know their future is safe in the hands of this Government with the strong commitments contained in the programme, A Government of Renewal, and that the ultimate nightmare scenario for them would be a Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrat Government with the spectacle of Deputy McDowell as Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications.

I wish to share my time with the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs.

Pontius Pilate.

Deputy O'Rourke was right. They are glued together. Have the speeches been vetted?

(Interruptions.)

Is it agreed that the Minister for Social Welfare may share time with the Tánaiste? Agreed.

In the short time available to me I wish to devote most of what I have to say to the issue of semi-State companies and their crucial role in the wider economy.

It is fundamental to the role my party seeks to play in Irish public life that a strong, well managed and dynamic public sector has a major contribution to make to Ireland's future. That contribution has been so critical in the past that the semi-State sector has been, in a real sense, the rock on which Irish economic development was founded. We in the Labour Party would not have any wish to participate in a Government that was hostile to the involvement of the semi-State sector in continued growth and development.

Before dealing with that issue in more detail, it is necessary to deal with some of the issues raised in contributions to this debate last evening and to the controversy of the past few weeks, the controversy that has been unseemly and which has demonstrated the hollowness and superficiality of the Opposition approach, especially Fianna Fáil.

As is well known, particularly by Deputy Molloy, I fundamentally disagree with the ideological position of the Progressive Democrats in relation to all forms of public enterprise, but at least they have tried to conduct themselves with some degree of seriousness throughout this controversy and to address the real issues, even if in a very incoherent manner.

Fianna Fáil, on the other hand, has betrayed not only an astonishing willingness to condone some elements of sharp practice, but also a complete misunderstanding of the real issues. Nobody has a monopoly on high standards——

Not even the Tánaiste.

——A mantra, Deputy Ahern. However, the attempts by Fianna Fáil speakers to compare the controversy of the recent past with issues that brought down the last Government have forced them to rely on a version of the truth that would be more at home in an Enid Blyton story than in the House.

That Government fell in the first instance because crucial information that was in the possession of the then Taoiseach, and used by him for tactical purposes, was withheld from the House. It fell because, in a number of instances, the trust that must exist in any partnership, especially a Government one, was irreparably breached.

People who have to listen to lectures from Fianna Fáil about accountability, especially in the light of recent experience, would be forgiven for thinking they are in the presence of a true deathbed conversion. I have been given no reason to distrust the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Michael Lowry. In regard to the issue of surveillance on him, I do not know whether he was under surveillance, and if he was, who was responsible. I was fully satisfied — and I remain so — that he had adequate reason to believe he was being watched and that the appropriate thing for him to do was to refer the matter to the Garda.

The Tánaiste was watching him too — when he was writing his speech.

Did Deputy Molloy say something?

I said nothing. I am reading the Tánaiste's speech.

I was just giving the Deputy the option. In relation to the Minister's approach to the management of semi-State companies, I have had reason to know from my own experience that he takes his brief seriously, that he approaches it pragmatically and that his interest has been in the survival of the enterprises for which he is accountable and in the preservation of jobs. In all our discussions on these matters — and I have no hesitation in saying there have been many — I have found him both open and approachable and I fully support the policies he has adopted and his commitment to them.

In relation to the rest of the controversy, the political charge that has been made against Deputy Lowry, when it is all boiled down, may be no more than that he or people acting on his behalf may have overstated his case.

Some overstatement.

If overstating one's case was a capital offence, there would be many Deputies on all sides of the House — but especially on the Fianna Fáil benches — who would be shivering at the prospect of facing such a charge.

The Tánaiste should point the finger at himself.

The truth is that we may not all be prepared to admit it, but every Member of this House knows there have been many complaints down through the years of golden circles, insider trading, inside tracks and the like. It is an area of Irish life where a lot of light has been shed in recent years. One only has to think back to controversies four or five years ago surrounding Greencore, the Telecom site in Ballsbridge, Carysfort and others to realise that it is impossible to be too vigilant. I have yet to hear anyone on the other side of the House say that the seemingly unnecessary expense uncovered in the case of some high personages in CIE is the real insult to CIE workers and pensioners.

I have no interest in participating in the gutter-type slanging matches that have characterised this controversy. If it has done some good, in ensuring that procurement and disposal procedures are tightened up all around, I believe those changes will be welcomed by the whole of semi-State industry.

From the time my father came into politics, fifty two years ago, and through a great deal of his political career, the drive for economic development and growth in Ireland was led by the semi-State companies.

And Fianna Fáil.

The ESB, Bord na Móna, CSE, CIE, Aer Lingus and others not only contributed jobs in large numbers but they paved the way to a development of infrastructure without which the modernisation of Ireland, and the living standards we enjoy today, would have been impossible. They all encountered opposition in their day, but the gratitude that modern Ireland owes to these enterprises — run by the first entrepreneurs and risk-takers in Ireland — is incalculable.

In all my experience, I have found that the great majority of people who work in semi-State companies do so out of a sense of public commitment. There are many, in management and at every other level, who could do better for themselves in the private sector but who have chosen public employment instead. They are the ones who will have been hurt by these controversies and their anger will not have been eased by the crocodile tears of a Fianna Fáil Party that in Government left many State companies starved of essential capital and ignored the necessary decisions when companies were in trouble. The Members opposite know it.

(Interruptions.)

Members know it and it was in the files when we went into Government.

Fianna Fáil sacked 2,200 workers.

The Deputy's party was in Government too.

Not in 1989. The Deputy has a short memory.

Some years ago I tried to set out the principles that I believe should apply to the existing State companies in the traded sector. Many of these companies have been subject to fundamental rationalisation measures in recent years, which has been largely necessary on commercial grounds and because of a changing environment.

It is essential that the changes that are still necessary are approached on a basis where principles are understood. For that reason, I would like to spell out again the basic principles that I believe should underpin our approach to the semi-State companies in the traded sector. Developmental and financial objectives in terms of both value added, normal financial ratios and scope of the enterprise should be set. Commercial goals should predominate and social goals, where appropriate, should be clearly distinguished and costed.

Methods for resolving tensions between shareholders, board and management should be mutually understood and followed. Once such arrangements are in place, political involvement should be constrained within the ambit of the procedures. Capital should be made available on a basis that ensures that estimated returns are in excess of the cost of the funds, taking due account of risk and time factors. State enterprises should be run by top management and boards that believe in the integrity of State enterprise and its role in the economy. Otherwise, they should not be appointed or should be removed.

None of these principles rules out joint ventures or other appropriate forms of business co-operation with other State entities and the private sector or investment abroad for strategic business reasons. I do not believe that semi-State companies should be allowed to indulge in adventurism, but neither do I believe they want to. Where sound strategic reasoning suggests that the interests of the company, its customers, and its workforce would be best served by expansion overseas or by diversification in products or markets, it is good business rather than ideology that should inform the decision-making process.

It is necessary to stress, as a fundamental point, that the adoption of these and other policy principles will not of itself result in enterprise development unless there is philosophical belief at political level which is transmitted to the human fabric of the organisations involved. Lip service and half-formulated secret privatisation agendas are recipes for failure and have no place in the work we are trying to do. And it is also necessary to state, again as a fundamental point, that imposed solutions do not work. Policy has to be developed in partnership and consultation. Our whole community has a stake in semi-State industry, not just taxpayers but those who work in the companies, those who manage them, those who buy their goods and services, those whose pensions depend on viability and prudent management and those who sell the companies.

The people who work in public enterprise, and the trade unions which represent them, have demonstrated a commitment in recent years to the success of their enterprises that ought to be an example for all. Through all the painful adjustments that have taken place — and there have been many — the key feature that has ensured successful transition has been a willingness to consider new ideas and even painful sacrifice. Trade unions and employees have earned a right to play a major role in shaping the future of their enterprises. It is often the job of Government to present difficult choices, based on careful analysis, but any Government which believes it can impose change simply by waving its hand is not only fooling itself but behaving irresponsibly.

We stand at a time when Ireland is gearing itself to compete even more effectively in a rapidly changing world. None of us is immune from that change. We can get through it and benefit from it only if we work together. It is surely time to put slagging matches to one side and stop all this political point-scoring.

Who started it?

There are obvious examples in terms of what our semi-State companies can do and I will give two. What ESB International does in many countries abroad is lauded, as are the efforts it has made abroad on behalf of Ireland. I will cite a recent example. A Palestinian delegation was in Ireland from the West Bank and Gaza, where the ESBI are working with them to give them an independent electricity supply. They could not overpraise the professionalism, integrity and work of the ESBI. The same has happened in relation to Telecom workers who went abroad, during the crisis in England two years ago, when praise was given to those workers for the efforts they made on behalf of British Telecom when the emergency struck. The same is true in many other areas. I have heard people attacking Aer Rianta. Aer Rianta has been extremely successful in many corners of the world and long may it last.

I would remind Deputy Ahern that I have, on many occasions, praised the efforts made by Fianna Fáil in the 1930s in working with the semi-State industries. They were brave decisions by a new party in Government, but that has changed in recent years. The semi-State bodies have a major role to play and they deserve our support. They have hard decisions to make and we all know what pain has been suffered in recent years. It is time for us all to work with the semi-State bodies in facing those decisions. They have been the major component parts and participants in building up this country and we should never forget that.

And not use them as political footballs.

And not a cosy cartel.

I am telling it as it is. If we want the people who work in semi-State companies to take our arguments and debates seriously, then it is time we got serious about building and strengthening the partnership of which the semi-State sector is such a fundamental part.

When do we get answers?

Acting Chairman

I understand that Deputy Séamus Brennan intends sharing his time. Deputy Brennan will speak from 7.34 p.m. to 7.42 p.m. Deputy Lawlor will follow for five minutes, Deputy O'Dea for five minutes. Deputy Tom Kitt for five minutes and Deputy Cowen for seven minutes. Is that agreed? Agreed.

It would have been better for the Minister, Deputy Lowry, to come into this House and answer the questions we put to him. He cannot keep running away from the fact that he has misled this House and he cannot keep treating this House in a cavalier fashion.

There are nine key facts where, it is now clear, the Minister has misled this House. In regard to the American trip of Mr. Dermot O'Leary the Minister has admitted that he misled the House. As regards his knowledge of the Horgan's Quay site, the Minister says he was aware of the controversy while he was director of elections during the by-election in Cork last year. Deputy Bernard Allen said he raised the matter as soon as the new Government was formed.

Our information is that the Minister asked his Department to investigate the matter as soon as he came to office and his Department, I am told, sought the file from CIE last February. I would like to ask the Minister if that is true.

January.

However, the Minister told us in a reply to a parliamentary question on 20 September that he did not know about it until May 1995. In his Dáil speech he claimed he did not know about it until 21 June and refuses to say who brought it to his attention. However, during questioning last week he said he asked the new chairman of CIE to investigate the site in April 1995. Deputy Lowry also said he was aware of the problem while Mr. O'Leary was chairman of CIE. These are huge anomalies involving different time frames and enormous gaps. Which one of these dates is correct: February, April, May or June? They cannot all be right.

The Minister also claimed in his speech last week that there was firm interest in the Horgan's Quay site apart from Owen O'Callaghan's. This is simply incorrect and the information the Minister gave the House in relation to the Cork Harbour Commissioners was misleading.

The CIE board, under its new chairman and new chief executive, yesterday stood over its decision to sell the site to O'Callaghan Properties. The Minister has misled the House on the negotiations on that aspect of the Horgan's Quay site. He claimed in his speech and during Question Time that Mr. Ambrose Kelly negotiated the financial aspects of the deal and acted on behalf of Owen O'Callaghan. This, the Minister claimed, was an example of a cosy cartel simply because Mr. Kelly knows Mr. O'Callaghan and Mr. Kelly also knows Mr. O'Leary. By claiming that Mr. Kelly negotiated the deal with CIE the Minister somehow felt he had established proof of his golden circle.

However, a CIE official said that Mr. Kelly did not negotiate the financial aspects of the deal, and this is in direct conflict with what the Minister told this Chamber.

The Minister also claimed to present three separate pieces of evidence to back up his claims about Mr. Kelly when, in fact, the primary source for Craig Gardner and for Mr. Kennedy was one Mr. Gahan. Then we had the kangaroo court spectacle of CIE executives being paraded on television last Friday. I would like to know who instructed these officials to appear in this rather silly fashion and why.

The Minister claimed, in August, that he would give additional information to the Garda about his allegations of surveillance. Why has he not done this yet? The Minister told this House that the Garda investigation into surveillance was still ongoing. Not only is the investigation finished, it never really began as the Garda established within days, if not hours, that there was no substance to the Minister's claims that the surveillance was linked to his much hyped clamp-down on semi-States. Again, the House has been seriously misled in this key area.

The Minister has also given seriously misleading information to this Chamber about details of the surveillance. On page 12 of his speech he says a few days after he got the letter alleging he was under surveillance he consulted the Taoiseach and passed the letter to the Garda. In response to questions on 10 October he said he got the letter alleging surveillance on 1 July and did not tell the Taoiseach and the Garda until 25 July. Three weeks is hardly a few days, or did the Minister give more misleading information to this House? Why did he wait so long?

The Minister also claimed that Mr. O'Callaghan was being bankrolled by CIE. This is simply not true. The developer could not have paid for the site, as the Minister claimed, because contracts were only exchanged on 2 October 1995. This was because the deal was delayed due to a series of investigations lasting from January, and it was held up by the Department.

I find it most extraordinary that the contract for the site was suddenly rushed out by CIE just before the Minister came to defend himself in this House. I think this was done deliberately at the Minister's behest because the Minister wanted to be able to say that contracts had been exchanged so that he could come in here and order the review of the site.

With regard to Killarney, the Minister, while claiming he wanted to get value for taxpayers' money, simply gave away a valuable site. He has misled the House as in a parliamentary question on 3 October he told Deputy Batt O'Keeffe that he had no function in individual property disposals. Yet, in his press release on this Killarney development he says he has intervened.

The Minister has twisted the facts surrounding his conversations with journalists and others about surveillance. In his speech he selectively quoted the Sunday Business Post as back-up for his surveillance claims. The security source being quoted by the newspaper said one of the groups that had the Minister under surveillance might even be Fine Gael. The Minister also appears to have set up a security source that contacted some other newspapers and he is now apparently using that as evidence.

On top of all this, he is now quoting what journalists have written as evidence when, in fact, reporters got that information from the Minister in off the record briefings. On 20 August he was quoted in the Sunday Independent as saying that a security source had also confirmed that he was under surveillance. In his speech this has turned out to be a journalist. Who was the journalist? Is it a case of the Minister giving the reporter information and then, having given it out, using the journalist as his source to carry on? It seems to be the case.

In his speech last week he claimed he had not been digging for dirt on any file since he took up office. That is another case of deliberately misleading this House.

Your dental records would match a lot of skeletons.

Why did an army of accountants peruse the semi-State files? Why were questionnaires sent out by his Department? Why all the trawling? The Minister has presented the House with a forged Waldorf Astoria bill. We want to know who forged it. Was it a deliberate attempt to mislead this House? Also, who wrote the letter he quoted on 10 October from CIE Tours? The Minister read the letter but not the signature. Why did the CIE chief executive, and not the chairman, report the claims of surveillance.

We have questioned the judgment of this Minister in many areas. In the light of some remarks he made in his speech last week we must raise the issue again. In his speech on 10 October he said that appointments to State boards must not give rise to conflicts of interest. How does the Minister square this with his appointment of a director to Bord Gáis earlier this year. This individual's firm has very valuable contracts from Bord Gáis, and the director appointed receives all company documentation. I gather he is the only one on the board who may have a direct conflict of interest with Bord Gáis. It will be interesting to hear the Minister's comments on that at some stage.

This affair has gone on for far too long. The Minister has not answered central questions on surveillance. He has not substantiated his cartel allegations. He has angered the trade unions and management. Under Dáil privilege, he has disgracefully attacked the integrity of three businessmen. He has misled the Dáil in nine key areas and he should now leave office.

The semi-State sector does not need a mutual admiration society in the Dáil, with Members falling over each other to praise what we all know is their important role. If there is any wrongdoing that should be looked at. A special Committee of this House could thoroughly investigate such matters. The Minister asked us recently if anybody condoned wrongdoing. No one in this House would condone wrongdoing but it should be proved.

I am taking part in this debate because of a most unedifying spectacle which has run for many months with no sign of being concluded thanks to the incompetent handling of the various issues by the Minister, Deputy Lowry. The Minister claimed that he never named any businessman as being responsible for the surveillance on him. As recently as last Sunday week's issue of The Sunday Business Post, Emily O'Reilly quoted him as denying that he had named businessmen to certain individuals and journalists. I want to put on the record of the House that the Minister named the three businessmen to me, and to many other politicians even after he had been told by the Garda Síochána that the surveillance claims he made in his off the record briefings with the media had been investigated. He also identified the businessmen to some journalists who work in this House.

I will outline when the Minister named the businessmen to me. I was walking towards Grafton Street at approximately 3.45 p.m. on Monday, 31 July. It was the Monday after the Leinster football final in which Dublin had beaten Meath. I met the Minister and we briefly discussed the game and a few general issues. He then mentioned the media coverage of the semi-State sector and said that the surveillance on him the previous week had been "ridiculously heavy" and suggested that it was "unbearable". He said it had eased last week and he then asked if anyone could "call off O'Callaghan, O'Leary and Kelly".

The Deputy would believe it if someone else said that.

I queried him as to the reason he thought these individuals could be placing him under surveillance. He did not answer that question, but he mentioned the time he took up his position as Minister and the fact that an unsatisfactory situation existed in his Department as regards Mr. O'Leary. The Minister said he had no choice but to take action. He said he called in Mr. O'Leary and suggested that he could deal with his removal on the basis that a new executive chairman of CIE would be appointed. He said this would be a face-saving mechanism for Mr. O'Leary. My conversation continued with the Minister for another couple of minutes during which time Senator Norris passed by and exchanged greetings.

Just for a bit of colour.

I mention this because the Minister has given a completely different impression to the House. For example, on October 12 he told the House he never detected he was under surveillance, but he claims he has reasonable grounds to believe he was spied upon. Yet he said the surveillance was "ridiculously heavy" and "unbearable". How could he say that if he did not detect it?

It would be believed if anyone else said it.

I am not the only politician to whom the Minister spoke at the end of July and the beginning of August about surveillance. He irresponsibly mentioned names, although the gardaí did not interview the men.

The Deputy needs a credible witness.

There should be no interruptions.

Several journalists who cover the proceedings of this House received similar off the record briefings with the Minister and his agents. I call on the Minister, if he is so confident and sure of himself, to allow the journalists to divulge what the Minister said to them at the background briefings.

That would wipe the smile off the Minister's face.

The Deputy is scraping the bottom of the barrel now.

The Minister has the benefit of Dáil privilege and I ask him to extend the same privilege to journalists. The Minister has already double-crossed the journalists because he quoted as his facts information which he and his agents gave to the journalists, particularly those in The Sunday Business Post and The Sunday Tribune.

The Minister denied natural justice to three individuals who should clear their names in the courts. As Deputy Molloy said, he blackened their names to journalists and politicians without giving them the opportunity to respond. That was a reprehensible act and the three named individuals can pursue their case in the High Court. The Minister by his actions, and those of his underlings, and minions has misled the House. He has had to retract and clarify certain statements made during his earlier performances in the House. The Minister should admit that he named those people instead of hiding behind legal arguments.

As time is limited, I ask Deputies on both sides of the House to refrain from interrupting.

We have the unusual situation here of the Minister disabling himself from performing the onerous duties of his office in the interests of the people. The Minister has, for much of his tenure in office, been cloistered away with his legion of public relations merchants, spin doctors and advisers of various hues either hiding from or one step ahead of an imaginary army of private detectives. We have had to endure this vaudeville all summer. Sightings of the Minister decreased as the summer wore on, but he opened his mouth on a few occasions to change feet.

Willie the comic.

He has continually refused all entreaties to give an account of himself. When he was finally dragged reluctantly before this House he hid behind outdated legal advice on the sub judice rule, the last refuge of those who have nothing to say. When we finally heard his case, such as it was, it had all the solidity of Legoland.

In endeavouring to prove the existence of what does not exist and never existed, the Minister deliberately vilified, smeared insulted and deeply hurt tens of thousands of decent men and women who work in the semi-State sector. The privilege afforded to every Member of Dáil Éireann was shamefully and calculatingly misused last week to defame individuals who cannot come in here to answer for themselves.

The Chair is concerned about the term "deliberate". The Chair has ruled on many occasions about the terms "misleading" and "deliberately misleading". I am concerned about that word. Therefore, I ask the Deputy to withdraw the word "deliberate" and to refrain from using it.

I withdraw the word "deliberate", but I replace it with the word "calculatingly".

The Deputy should say it was not deliberate.

Those people who cannot come into the House to answer for themselves will answer the Minister in another place. They will be successful and the taxpayer will have to pick up the tab for the Minister's reckless abuse and vilification of those people.

It is not carrying the analogy too far to say that the quality of justice, not the punishment, the Minister has meted out to those people compares unfavourably with the quality of justice meted out to the victims of some of the famous miscarriages of justice we have seen in a neighbouring jurisdiction. At least a crime was committed in those cases——

The Deputy was not evident then either.

——and there were suspects. The Minister had suspects, but he spent hundreds of thousands of pounds of the taxpayers' money looking for a crime. The usual procedure is that the crime is first discovered and then one looks for suspects. The Minister created the suspects first and then went looking for a crime. Despite the heedless expenditure of taxpayers' money, public relations briefings and the poisonous innuendo, the Minister has failed abysmally.

Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn would not allow the Deputy into the office.

I ask Deputies to stop interrupting.

I allowed the Minister to speak without interruption. It is a sure sign he has a weak case when he interrupts me.

I ask the Minister to refrain from interrupting.

This Government needs a sudden attack of will power to tackle the problems in this vital sector of the economy. This will take a Minister with authority and credibility, but the current Minister has neither. His credibility has shot through and he has all the authority of Dustin the turkey.

There is a big resemblance.

I recall a newspaper headline in which the Minister was described as the stiletto on the Taoiseach's cloak. How hollow those words sound now.

In the interests of this country, the Minister should resign from office. If he does, it will be the end of an ego, but it will be in the public interest. However, it will not be in the public interest if he clings to office as a discredited Minister. The Minister knows what honourable course of action he should take and the Tánaiste should insist on it.

The Deputy did not appear in either Department for two years.

There are ten minutes remaining.

I call on the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications to apologise to the workers of CIE and the semi-State sector in general for his unfounded allegations against them. While he was appointed Minister to protect, develop and advance commercial semi-State companies, in effect he has libelled, slandered, undermined and debased the entire semi-State sector. The Minister's credibility is in tatters, his speeches are being rewritten by the Labour Party and Democratic Left, he has lost all control of his Department and is incapable of discharging his ministerial functions.

From my contacts I can assure the Minister there is a great deal of anger in the trade union movement that his authority has been weakened irreversibly. While digging himself deeper into the unsavoury mire he created for himself, he has adopted a specific strategy of endeavouring to blacken Fianna Fáil, making sweeping and scurrilous allegations against our party. He has reintroduced Civil War politics to Dáil Éireann in a vicious, vindictive manner and should be condemned for doing so.

I recall the deeply held wishes of my former Fine Gael constituency colleague, the late Deputy John Kelly, who wanted eventually to unite our two parties in Coalition.

Deputy Kitt should not be invoking the late Deputy John Kelly's aspirations.

The Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, by his scurrilous behaviour, has certainly torpedoed that prospect for the foreseeable future. Indeed the Minister's language in relation to my party, when viewed outside this House in the context of people's religion or colour, would result in his being charged with incitement to hatred.

Did Sam write that?

Sam-song.

(Interruptions.)

I am all in favour of tightening procedures and proper tendering systems. I would support the Minister if he genuinely wanted to do something in that area; I will support any effort to get to the truth but the reality is that the biggest stumbling block to the truth is the Minister. He has another agenda, which is to get at Fianna Fáil.

We have had our fill of the Minister's witch-hunt, innuendoes and insinuations. I might remind him that we are the largest party in the State and, for that reason, at least 50 per cent of business people will inevitably be Fianna Fáil supporters. However, as far as the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications is concerned, if a business person is involved in a business deal with the State or other parties, if he or she happens to be a Fianna Fáil supporter, in the Minister's eyes, that person is a crook. That attitude is offensive and sickening.

That is a very simplistic explanation.

I speak on behalf of my many colleagues on this side of the House who have served this party and the country over many years, much longer than the Minister. Indeed, like the father of the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, my father also served in this House. I speak about many other decent people who served this House over many years, about present Members who want to do a decent day's work here and in their constituencies.

We have had our fill of the Minister's ridiculing the good name of our party. I will tell the Minister where the real crookery lies: we had his crookery over the summer months when he made his spurious allegations, we had his crookery in assassinating people's characters and misleading the Dáil. We have had the crookery of the most Machiavellian minds in the country on behalf of the three Government parties concocting the Minister's speech, attempting to pretend that what happened during the past summer was of our making, in an attempt to convince us that the Minister could not have said what he did then, in an attempt to savagely smear and attack the Fianna Fáil Party.

The public has not been conned by these slick tactics. The dogs in the street could tell one that the bottom line is that the Minister's standing and reputation have been damaged irreparably. If the Minister could relive this past summer, I have no doubt he would not have done what he did——

——a great summer.

He has nobody to blame but himself.

In relation to this matter this House has been treated with contempt by the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications and with arrogance by his colleagues.

This House has heard much about "cosy cartels" over the past summer, the Minister appointed himself the avenging angel of the electorate, promising to poison "sweetheart deals" and end inside trading. He made his last stand in Horgan's Quay in Cork, holding up the sale of the CIE site to O'Callaghan properties as an example of a "cosy cartel" in operation but his recollection of the history of that site is scandalously selective and disingenuous.

I can illustrate here this evening that the Minister's "cosy cartel" amounts to little more than a Fine Gael "carousel", having its roots in Deputy Allen's sponsorship of another development company keen on the Horgan's Quay site, North Gate Investments Limited.

Last November Deputy Allen claimed that another interested party — North Gate Investments Limited — had been shut out of the purchase of the site after it had been secured by O'Callaghan properties at more than 35 per cent above the two independent valuations sought by CIE. Since then two reviews have confirmed compliance with the guidelines then in operation. In the intervening period the Minister of State has continuously engaged in a vindictive campaign against O'Callaghan Properties, citing the experience of North Gate Investments Limited as its justification. He has been urging the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications to instigate endless so-called investigations into the sale of the Horgan's Quay site, incidentally none of which found any fault with that sale. The main purpose of such investigations was to discredit a perfectly legal and legitimate transaction handled by CIE in accordance with its procedures, not changed by the Minister despite his often repeated and malignly-constructed reservations about them.

The Horgan's Quay saga was promoted to the status of "cosy cartel", ripping off millions of pounds at the expense of taxpayers. The Minister, despite having spent £150,000 of taxpayers' money on external consultants, huge fees on public relations handlers and advisers, wasted the time of the semi-State employees he insulted and to whom he has not yet apologised and failed miserably to find the smallest shred of evidence to support his claims in this House last week. On Thursday last, he conveniently announced that he had an alternative firm, North Gate Investments Limited, apparently prepared to take over the site on the same terms and conditions as O'Callaghan properties.

Who is North Gate Investments Limited, the company so hard done by by CIE, and so close to the heart of the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy Allen? Who are these white knight developers who have ridden to the assistance of the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications? North Gate Investments Limited is a Cork property development company whose quantity surveyor — wait for it — to borrow a phrase from the Minister himself — is none other than Patrick F. Coveney Associates, the family firm of the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Coveney.

Where is the "cosy cartel"?

Now we are getting to the truth of this whole, shameful charade carried on throughout the summer——

The Deputy will have to do better.

——this merciless pursuit of private individuals, this discrediting of CIE and the entire semi-State sector. This is not about openness and transparency, about virtue or the high moral ground; this is crass commercial interest topped up by envy and political malice. Those twin towers of openness and transparency — I refer to those of the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications and of the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy Allen — not once alluded to the fact that Patrick F. Coveney Associates had a specific, vested interest in North Gate Investments Limited if the latter company had obtained the site. Neither did either of them allude to the fact that in the summer of last year Patrick F. Coveney Associates was actively involved with North Gate Investments Limited on a project in Cork City at a time when North Gate Investments Limited had expressed an interest in that site.

Do those same two Ministers seriously expect us to believe that, if CIE had agreed to sell the site to that company by private treaty — as they did ultimately to O'Callaghan properties — North Gate Investments Limited and its design team, including Patrick F. Coveney Associates, would have objected? Do they expect us to believe they would have rushed in to say "stop, we cannot purchase on that basis, you must go to public tender"? Indeed, if they had purchased it at 35 per cent more than its market value, would those same two Ministers not now be contending it was anything other than a proper beneficial deal — even a sweetheart deal — for the State?

This has been a shameful episode, a controversy contrived and conceived with political malice, executed by lies and half-truths, innuendo and character assassination. This country and House have been shamefully served by the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications and his junior colleague, Minister of State, Deputy Allen. To save his political neck, the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications has been prepared to come in here, to sacrifice semi-State companies and private individuals, from his bunker, under the protection of this House. Indeed he has made decent public servants look like caricature used car salesmen, exposing them to public ridicule. Unlike those he attacked in this House, the Minister, Deputy Lowry, has run and hidden behind the privilege of this House and his expensive handlers. He has refused to be interviewed other than a 30 second sound bite at his bidding, having sent others, like his friend and colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry, Deputy Yates, to do his dirty work for him in public.

It has been an extraordinary six months in Irish politics. No Minister has so demeaned politics, shown himself less fit for public office than the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications. He has been successful in driving O'Callaghan Properties from the Horgan's Quay site, having told them he knew nothing about it until 2 June last whereas we now know that the controversy stoked by the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications arose in the Cork by-election which returned Deputy Coveney to this House. In addition, we know from his own admissions about the Bord Gáis affair, the then Minister of State, Deputy Coveney, kept an active lookout for his interests in his family business.

From all the material facts emerging it is clear there has been a "cosy cartel" of Fine Gael Ministers who have maintained masonic silence on their interests and conflicts of interests. We now know from Government sources that all Government parties had a hand in this deeply disingenuous and distorted version of the material facts relating to the Horgan's Quay site. The Minister promised to tell all. What he delivered was a dismal attempt at a crude political hatchet job which has blown up in his face.

Deputy Cowen, I must call another speaker.

I asked the Tánaiste and the Minister for Social Welfare to bring justice into economics and integrity into politics——

Private Members' Time is precious time.

——but they failed to do so.

Bring in the referees.

You are a hypocrite, a self-serving sham.

(Interruptions.)

Let us hear the Minister.

You are steeped in a Fianna Fáil culture.

So much for standards. We all know about the Minister's standards.

We must have an orderly and dignified debate as I will not preside over anything else. There is undue interruption from both sides of the House.

I will not be stopped from saying my piece.

Deputy Cowen, the Chair is trying to get some order. I will not preside over this level of disorder. Private Members' Time is very precious. Regardless of that, I will not hesitate to discontinue these proceedings if Members continue in this way. The Minister is in possession and we will hear his contribution uninterrupted.

We have listened to many contributions to this debate last evening and this evening. Unfortunately, many of them did not deal with the motion before us which is concerned with the strategy for the semi-State sector, in particular, the commercial State companies operating under the aegis of the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications.

This is militant Labour.

The Government, with Labour's total commitment and input, has committed itself to the revitalisation of the commercial semi-State sector.

What about Allenwood?

We are committed to building and strengthening these companies to position them to compete effectively in an era of technological change and EU competition rules.

What about Allenwood?

Our key objective underlying all strategy is to secure the future for State companies to give them the opportunity for future expansion by utilising their extraordinary bank of talents and skills.

What about Allenwood?

We aim to encourage growth and diversity and above all to use available resources to increase growth, protect jobs and create new ones. As my party Leader outlined, those key principles are the cornerstone of our approach to the semi-State sector.

Examples of the positive approach we are taking include the following. Bord na Móna will be revived as a result of an injection of £120 million in State investment. Aer Lingus is now on a sounder footing following equity injection and restructuring with the final instalment of equity due this year. The plan to save TEAM Aer Lingus and to secure its future continues. Bord Gáis continues to grow and has invested successfully in securing gas supply. A major expansion programme is under appraisal at my request. The upgrading of Whiddy and continued development at Whitegate have given a new sense of purpose to the Irish National Petroleum Corporation. The Government remains committed to finding a strategic partner for Telecom. A second mobile phone competition is now under way and I welcome the initiative of existing State companies in diversifying and joining consortia in bidding for that licence — more power to them. We are committed through social partnership and dialogue to finding agreement with all the interests within the ESB to secure a strong and vibrant future for that crucially important company. Investment in light rail and the continued upgrading of our rail network will benefit CIE in its strategically vital role as the State's transport company. A fundamental review of postal services is at an advanced stage in An Post to seek to ensure that it survives and thrives in an era of increased competition.

The truth is that if Ireland's economic development over the past 50 years had depended on the private sector and on the profit motive alone, that development would not have happened. The private sector would have refused to take the risks or to wait for the returns associated with the huge investment that was necessary.

The semi-State sector has also given the lead in providing good employment and high standards and that good employment has been repaid by an outstanding contribution from the employees of the semi-State sector who are public servants, servants of the whole community in the best possible sense of that term. They know, and I can reassure them, that Labour in Government will never abandon the semi-State sector——

What about Allenwood?

(Interruptions.)

——just as clearly as they know that the bogus concerns of Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats have never been matched by performance when they were in power.

You abandoned it.

I wish to share the remainder of my time with Deputy Hogan.

I am sure that is agreed.

Deputy Molloy was not listening. He was talking.

As all Deputies in the House know, the Minister, Deputy Lowry, inherited a number of serious problems when he took office. Unlike his predecessors, the Minister did not rush his fences——

He ran straight into them.

——but stood back and thought out a comprehensive strategy for the semi-State bodies for which he is responsible. This strategy, as enunciated in the House by the Minister last night and elsewhere previously, represents a real vision about how the Minister, Deputy Lowry, and the Government will prepare the commercial semi-State bodies for a competitive marketplace in which they must become more efficient and customer focused. This strategy will ensure that these companies will have a viable future and thus be able to provide viable and sustainable jobs for their employees.

The Minister's strategies for the semi-State companies are being implemented in a consistent and coherent manner and are already yielding significant results as indicated by the Minister of State, Deputy Stagg. The Minister, Deputy Lowry, has tackled Bord na Móna's crippling debt problem which was ignored by his predecessors. He has provided Telecom Éireann with a mandate to seek the strategic alliance partner vital for the company's future. He has facilitated the completion of the crucial restructuring and development plan in TEAM Aer Lingus which aims to ensure its future viability. He has actively promoted the seminal agreement on employee participation in Aer Lingus. He has taken positive action to speed up the negotiations on the cost and competitiveness review of the ESB. He has given CIE the go ahead for the biggest ever investment programme in Irish railways.

Those are some examples of what the Minister has achieved in just ten months in office. I would like to mention a more recent example. Earlier today, even amid the continuing diversions and side issues which have been introduced into this debate, the board of An Post endorsed a report on the future of the company initiated by Minister Lowry last June. This report charts the future of An Post for the next five years during which new competitive challenges will emerge. It gives the company an excellent basis from which to address these challenges and it offers it a way to refocus its activities. The report will put An Post on a sound footing for the future. It typifies Minister Lowry's strategic approach to the semi-State sector which he intends to pursue with commitment and vision.

Despite the efforts of some Opposition Deputies to deflect attention from the core issues in this debate, the reality is that the Minister's strategy for the semi-State sector is working and is already showing positive results. Through his strategy and actions to date the Minister, Deputy Lowry, has proved himself to be a real ally to the semi-State companies and their employees. He is the Minister who is preparing them for a future in which they will see growth and profitability and in which they will provide sustainable and rewarding jobs for their employees.

In contrast, through years of consistent inaction by former Ministers, Deputies Brennan, Geoghegan-Quinn and Cowen, Fianna Fáil allowed the semi-State companies to deteriorate financially to the point where serious action and surgery was required. The Fianna Fáil Party and the dream team, in particular, have consistently condoned and supported closed deals behind closed doors, especially in relation to the Horgan's Quay site in Cork.

That is rubbish.

(Interruptions.)

I am not at all surprised that Fianna Fáil speakers tonight have supported the former chairman of CIE, Mr. O'Leary. He did a good deal for Fianna Fáil over the years.

This is the same old rubbish.

He gathered a good deal of money for them through various means. It appears that the only time he wished to go on business trips as former chairman of CIE was when there happened to be a Fianna Fáil fundraiser in the United States of America.

(Interruptions.)

I do not need anyone to tell me what to say. I am here too long to take that from anyone.

Take your tablet.

That is all you can say.

Deputy Cowen, who has established himself as the political rottweiler of Dáil Éireann, not for the first time fails to recollect the manner in which State assets can be sold.

Deputy Hogan alleged corruption in the case of Galmoy. He is a hypocrite.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Cowen, please desist.

In case the Deputy was not aware of the position when he was Minister, all property which is a State asset must be sold by public tendering——

You alleged corruption in respect of Galmoy.

——not by private treaty, which is the traditional Fianna Fáil way of selling things behind closed doors and a veil of secrecy.

A method espoused by Deputy Cowen.

You alleged corruption in respect of the site at Galmoy.

Deputy Cowen, please desist. Also, the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, is not being helpful.

I am not surprised at Fianna Fáil quoting extensively from an article today by Sam Smyth in the Irish Independent who alleged that the Minister, Deputy Lowry, and his friends were the only people who believed he was under surveillance. This same journalist has completely changed his story——

Seven times.

——since July when he named the company whom he alleged had put the Minister under surveillance.

The Deputy is changing the story every day of the week.

Is that the type of journalism we want from a responsible newspaper? This journalist changed his story and Fianna Fáil is prepared to quote him extensively.

Deputy Hogan is trying to include the journalist now.

Will the Deputy ban the press?

I have no doubt the constructive and decisive action taken by the Minister, Deputy Lowry, in the semi-State sector will ensure that in the coming years the companies will be viable and employees will have a secure future under this Government.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Michael McDowell.

I am sure that is satisfactory and agreed.

When the Progressive Democrats parliamentary party decided some time ago to put down a motion to facilitate a meaningful debate on the future strategy for the semi-State companies, we did not expect the debate would deteriorate in the way it did——

The Deputy does not want any semi-State company.

——and that it would be hijacked by the events which resulted from the statements by the Minister during the summer recess. We thought that by this time the Minister would have given a reasonable explanation to the House. However, he did not.

In my contribution last night I devoted some time to the Lowry affair and sought to use the remainder of my 40 minutes to put before the House the proposals, policy ideas and objectives of the Progressive Democrats on the way in which the semi-State sector should develop over the next five years.

On the Lowry affair I posed certain questions. I would have expected those questions to have been answered. They related to the file in the property section of CIE which was sent to the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications. I posed questions rather than making any allegation against the Minister of giving wrong information or misleading the House. I asked the Minister if such a file was sent to his Department in January 1995, if it had been carefully examined in his Department and if the details of the sale which were outlined in that file were approved by his Department and sent back to CIE.

I have it on very high authority that this file was sent to the Minister's Department. I know the names of the officials who dealt with it in the Department and the names of officials who dealt with it in CIE. In his statement to the House on Tuesday, 10 October 1995, the Minister said he knew nothing about the detail of the Horgan's Quay site until 21 June and hung all of his summer allegations about cosy cartels and surveillance on this sale. He dragged other individuals in and said they were present when this extraordinary deal was being negotiated. I am amazed that the Minister, who spoke after me last night, did not refer to the questions that had been asked. He did not say he would answer them today or that he would check the facts. He ignored them last night.

I was on a television programme, "Cúrsaí", last night where the leader of one of the parties in the rainbow coalition, the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy De Rossa, sought to drag a smokescreen across this question and refused to answer. I am amazed that the same Minister who was the first Government speaker tonight made no attempt to answer the questions I posed. The Tánaiste and Leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Spring, has also contributed tonight. The three parties have contributed to this debate in the knowledge that this question was posed in the House and no attempt has been made to answer it or even to refer to it. There seems to be an effort by the three parties in Government to ignore these facts in the hope that they will go away and that the contradictions that lie on the record of the House in the contributions the Minister, Deputy Lowry, has made, will be forgotten and swept away.

None of this difficulty would be continuously raised in the House if the Minister was man enough to stand up and say he made a mistake, that he regrets what he has done and that he withdraws what he said. We could get on to deal with the real business of this House. Many of us in this House said things in the past but we stood up manfully, withdrew them and apologised. That has been the tradition in this House. If I was to say the Minister told the House a lie I would be told by the Chair that I could not make such an allegation. If the Minister tells the House a lie who will do anything about it? Are we to have a situation where the Minister's contribution contradicts what he said earlier? Was this file sent to the Department in January 1995? Was it carefully examined? Did it contain the details of this sale and was it approved and sent back to the property section in CIE? That is crucial to the whole issue that has been raised here. I will give the Minister an opportunity to reply.

This debate does not provide for that; the Deputy has the floor.

I will give the Minister time to reply to the question now.

Deputy Molloy——

How can you come to any conclusion other than one of guilt. There has been a deliberate refusal to answer a straightforward question.

If the Deputy puts down a question he will get an answer.

I was asked to put down a question. I put it down last night; I am putting it again now. The Minister knew it last night. My speech was circulated at 6.30 p.m. I made this statement in the House at 7.2 p.m. and I did not conclude until 7.40 p.m. The Minister had an official sitting beside him during that time and other officials were available outside. No attempt has been made to answer the question: Did this file exist? Did it go to his Department? Did his Department approve of all of this sale and all of the details——

Half of them.

——which the Minister tried to pin on outside individuals, Ambrose Kelly, and so on in trying to justify his summer allegations? The case the Minister has presented to the House is really pathetic. It saddens many of us who have spent much of our lives in public life and as Members of this House. It is sad that standards in this House and in politics are being lowered. That is the effect the Minister is having on all of us and on our standing with the public.

The Deputy is shedding tears from the moral high ground.

Arrogance will get the Minister nowhere.

What will the people think of us if this is the way we do business?

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Molloy without interruption please.

Does the Deputy remember Deputy Tully?

Will the Minister pay the price?

Let us hear the Deputy in possession.

I have been here long enough to know that when the truth is hurting the noise volumes rise from those who do not like what is being said and that is what is happening here now.

Does the Deputy remember Deputy Tully?

He paid the price; will the Minister pay the price?

The Deputy's claim to moral authority is wrong.

(Interruptions.)

Our party made it clear that if the Minister made allegations which he could stand over, he would have the full support of the Progressive Democrats. We are only interested in the truth, natural justice and fair play. We do not think that is the case here. Many people will be absolutely astonished that the Taoiseach stands over this carry-on and supports this low level of standards and facts which cannot be substantiated.

Who is standing over a sale for which the public will not have an opportunity to tender?

Deputy Molloy without interruption please.

The public may not know——

Did Deputy Molloy think it was right not to put that out to tender?

I think it should have been put out to tender and——

That is the essential point.

——I have said that publicly. That is not the issue.

Why were the guidelines changed?

We who work in this——

Did Deputy Molloy think it was right not to put Horgan's Quay site out to public tender?

How many more times must I repeat that it should have been put out to public tender? That is not what I am getting at.

Does Deputy Molloy think it was right for Mr. O'Leary to spend all that money on tours around the world of no value to CIE?

Let us not have these interruptions from either side of the House.

May I be allowed to speak?

Deputy Molloy, without interruption.

Does Deputy Molloy think that was right?

I can understand why the Taoiseach is seeking to barrack me. He has been placed in a very embarrassing position.

Do I look embarrassed?

The Taoiseach is so arrogant.

It is well known the Taoiseach is deeply indebted to Minister Lowry for having achieved his position in Government and putting this rainbow together. He is caught in the embarrassing situation whereby he does not want to ditch Minister Lowry. We are all lumbered, therefore, with this disgraceful carry-on in relation to facts that do not stand up and in relation to the character, integrity and reputations of people outside this House being questioned, all to protect a Minister who does not have the courage to stand up here and say he was wrong, apologise and withdraw his allegations.

Deputy Molloy would not do that.

He should do that. I gave him time to do that tonight but he turned it down.

(Interruptions.)

I now call on Deputy McDowell. Let us hear the Deputy.

There is a welcome contrast between the attitude of the Taoiseach, who is very keen to ask questions of Deputy Molloy, and that of the Minister sitting beside him who will not answer any questions in this debate. When one considers that Deputy Molloy has put straightforward simple questions to this Minister of fundamental importance to this whole affair and has not received an answer——

He got a full account.

Let us hear the Deputy.

——other than studied indifference——

He got a full account to the extent that it became boring.

Deputy Carey must restrain himself.

——we find ourselves with something we cannot ignore as simple indifference. I fully accept that many people in this House seem to operate on the basis of what word processors tell them to say yesterday but when it comes to a debate on an important issue, when one's ministerial record and integrity is an issue, one should come into this House in a position to answer "yes" or "no" to simple questions. I repeat the questions to the Minister now. Is it the case that in January or February of 1995 the file in relation to the Horgan's Quay site——

This is earth shattering stuff.

——was requested by his Department, brought to his Department, considered by his officials there and sent back to CIE with approval for the transaction?

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I would yield to the Minister if he wanted to answer that question now.

A Deputy

He does not want to answer it.

Did officials from the Minister's Department bring this matter to his attention and was the request for the file to be sent to his Department made at the instigation of the Minister? In all those circumstances, can the Minister stand over the speech he made in which he intimated to this House that the circumstances of the Horgan's Quay site deal were not known to him until June of 1995? Can he stand over those allegations made in this House——

I have no difficulty.

——if his Department considered that file and returned it to CIE with approval in January of 1995? I halt momentarily, because I know the order of this House does not allow interruptions yet, to allow Minister Lowry to tell me that no such transaction ever took place.

Can Deputy McDowell stand over everything that has been said?

The Minister should answer the question.

Deputy McDowell, without interruption.

The silence here tonight is so eloquent——

Damning.

I have no difficulty whatsoever.

——and I suggest to the Minister that if he cannot answer that question——

This is not a question and answer session.

——the consequences for him are fairly obvious.

He gave a full account but Deputy McDowell has a crooked mind.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, you will have to hand out some Winalot to some of the backbenchers on the opposite side of the House. They are getting a little hungry and agitated.

The Minister should answer the question.

This debate is about one Minister and his responsibility and apart from the sad and inept way in which the Minister has discharged his responsibility since taking office, we are also concerned here with the huge divergence between image and substance.

Deputy McDowell will never be accused of that.

Deputy McDowell is fairly good at that.

This Minister was portrayed by people who were well paid to do the job as somebody who had a strategy for the semi-State sector.

A Deputy

The Deputy has some strategy.

Speaker after speaker has alleged here tonight that a strategy exists. What is the strategy in virtually every company? It is either to throw money at debt or set up a study group to find out what they should do with it. There is no strategy.

That is rubbish. Deputy McDowell just wants to close them down.

He wants to close them down.

I am amused that Deputy Mulvihill would put his head over the parapet in this debate since his commitment to the semi-State sector seems to lie in the direction of privatisation.

Deputy McDowell had his chance to help them and he did not do so. He did not have the courage of his convictions.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Minister Stagg, please desist.

There will be no more cosy cartels here.

What this country and every employee in the semi-State sector needs is a Minister who will look after the national interest. A cosy cartel between one political party and an indefensible status quo in the semi-State sector is not what this country needs. We have had Irish Shipping and B & I. It is no achievement to throw £120 million at Bord na Móna and then invite it to tender——

"Invest" is the word, not "throw".

The Minister of State should be quite.

Deputy Molloy wanted to do it but he could not find them.

Deputy Stagg had his chance to speak but he did not make any points.

I did but the Deputy was not present, as usual.

It is no credit to any Minister to say in this House that he has thrown £120 million at Bord na Móna——

"Invest" is the word, not "throw".

——and at the same time to record as a matter of pride — and Minister of State Stagg endorsed this proposition — that Bord na Móna should, although massively in debt, now become a tenderer in a licensing competition to provide digital telephones. Bord an Móna has core industries. It is buying into a loss-making fuel distribution monopoly in Dublin.

The Deputy should tell his private sector friends that they are bound into one area and they will give him an answer very quickly. He wants to put constraints on the public sector that he will not put on the private sector.

I must ask Minister Stagg not to repeatedly interrupt.

Sell them off, give them away.

Deputy McDowell wants to close them all down.

We do not need a consortia of semi-State bodies vying with each other to provide competition with Telecom in the mobile telephones area.

Rumour machine.

That is sheer nonsense and no Minister with a strategy would allow semi-State bodies to compete with each other to take up licences.

Why not?

I will explain to the Minister of State if he will listen.

I thought Deputy McDowell was the champion of competition.

Will the Minister of State listen? Bord na Móna is £180 million in debt. It will get £120 million from the Government. It will buy loss making fuel distribution monopolies in Dublin and it does not have any expertise in mobile telephones.

Half truths and rubbish.

Consistent rubbish.

I will conclude on this note.

Thank God for that.

In the negotiations leading to the fomation of this Government, Deputy Molloy and myself were privileged to sit down with the Labour Party negotiators, neither of whom are here today.

Thanks be to God it did not last long.

Were we not lucky?

We were the lucky ones.

We were able to see through the mist and fog of Deputy Quinn's Havana cigars — and they were Havana cigars.

Anybody else would have been better.

I knew Deputy McDowell would fall for it.

We saw two Ministers and they told us about the Labour Party strategy. First, the Progressive Democrats would have to agree to an investment of £60 million——

We successfully got rid of you by telling you that.

——in Irish Steel and, second, we would have to agree that there would be no energy competition in the ESB sector, that that was a sine qua non for getting——

Not true.

——industrial peace in the ESB.

Did the Deputy fall for it?

They also told us that their political constituency was the semi-State sector and the public service, that they would never abandon that sector——

And we will look after them.

——and that they would do anything necessary to keep it in public control.

God preserve them from that.

When I put it to them that this sounded like the old fashioned rhetoric of the commanding heights of the economy, I remember the answer so well: "If that is what it sounds like, that is what it is".

That was the message for the Progressive Democrats.

It took us an hour to shake them off. That was the attitude of the Labour Party.

And even at that we could not get rid of them.

The Minister has no strategy and has failed miserably. He did not acquit himself well tonight.

That was not a good performance from Deputy McDowell.

They have turned it into their own circus.

(Interruptions.)

I am obliged to put the question on the amendment to amendment No. 1.

Question proposed: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 70; Níl, 59.

  • Ahearn, Theresa.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bhamjee, Moosajee.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Bhreathnach, Niamh.
  • Bree, Declan.
  • Broughan, Tommy.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Fitzgerald, Brian.
  • Fitzgerald, Eithne.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Foxe, Tom.
  • Gallagher, Pat (Laoighis-Offaly).
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • Lynch, Kathleen.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Mulvihill, John.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Upton, Pat.
  • Walsh, Eamon.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Keogh, Helen.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McDaid, James.
  • McDowell, Michael.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Hilliard, Colm M.
  • Hughes, Séamus.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • O'Donnell, Liz.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Woods, Michael.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies J. Higgins and B. Fitzgerald; Níl, Deputies D. Ahern and Callely.
Question declared carried.
Amendment to amendment No. 1 declared lost.
Amendment No. 1 put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 68; Níl, 60.

  • Ahearn, Theresa.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bhamjee, Moosajee.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Bhreathnach, Niamh.
  • Bree, Declan.
  • Broughan, Tommy.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Fitzgerald, Brian.
  • Fitzgerald, Eithne.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Foxe, Tom.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Gallagher, Pat (Laoighis-Offaly).
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • Lynch, Kathleen.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Mulvihill, John.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Upton, Pat.
  • Walsh, Eamon.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Hilliard, Colm M.
  • Hughes, Séamus.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Keogh, Helen.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, James.
  • McDowell, Michael.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donnell, Liz.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Woods, Michael.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Higgins and B. Fitzgerald; Níl, Deputies Callely and O'Donnell.
Amendment declared carried.
Motion, as amended, put and declared carried.
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