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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Oct 1995

Vol. 457 No. 3

Refugee Bill, 1995: Second Stage.

"That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill replaces the Refugee Bill, 1994, introduced by the previous Government which has been withdrawn. The primary purposes of the new Bill and its predecessor are essentially the same, namely to place our procedures for dealing with applications for refugee status on a statutory footing and to ensure that those procedures meet the highest standards in terms of fairness and impartialty towards applicants. As Deputies will recall, when the 1994 Bill was referred to the Select Committee on Legislation and Security, concerns were voiced on all sides of this House that it did not go far enough in seeking to safeguard the interests of applicants for asylum. In that context numerous amendments were tabled to the Bill and it was clear from the discussions that took place within the Select Committee that there was widespread support for the bulk of those amendments. The Government decided that, rather than seek to incorporate a large number of amendments into the original text, the better course would be to withdraw it and to introduce a new Bill which would take on board the relevant amendments to the maximum extent possible. This is a process that has involved a substantial amount of work including, in particular, detailed consultation with the Parliamentary Draftsman and the Office of the Attorney General.

In the course of my statement I will outline the main changes that have been made to the 1994 Bill. They are concerned, inter alia, with the entitlement of an applicant to be heard in the determination process and the extent to which interpreters must be provided. In addition I might mention, and this was urged extensively by the members of the Select Committee, that it is being made clear that the definition of a refugee will include a person persecuted because of his or her gender, sexual orientation or membership of a trade union. I believe that the new Bill fully meets the needs and legitimate expectations of applicants and I am confident that that view will be shared by the Members of this House. Before I go into detail in relation to the new Bill, it might be of interest to the House if I were to outline the background to the decision to introduce legislation to deal with asylum seekers and refugees.

Ireland acceded to the 1951 United Nations convention relating to the Status of Refugees in November 1956 and became a party to the related 1967 Protocol in November 1968. Since our accession, we have fulfilled our obligations under both instruments, although the procedures to give effect to those obligations were administrative and were never placed on a statutory footing. In the mid-1980s these administrative procedures were revised in consultation with the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, usually referred to as the UNHCR. The procedures were held to be legally binding by the Supreme Court in 1992. However, it has been contended that these arrangements are not sufficiently transparent or formal to meet today's needs. There is also a perception that because asylum seekers are a particularly vulnerable group of people it is in the interests of justice that their rights and entitlements should be clearly set out in a statute.

In 1993, an interdepartmental committee was established to examine all aspects of policy and practice in relation to non-nationals. Because of the importance of the issue of political asylum, the committee gave priority to this subject and produced an interim report which recommended that the existing administrative arrangements be put on a statutory footing, with the important addition of an appeals authority. The committee also recommended that an independent body be established to examine and make recommendations on applications for refugee status. The recommendations were accepted by the previous Government and incorporated in the 1994 Bill. They also form the basis of the new Bill. Accordingly the Bill is designed to give statutory effect to our international obligations with respect to refugees and to introduce an independent procedure for determining who is entitled to refugee status as well as providing for an appeals system. The 1995 Bill differs significantly from the 1994 Bill in the way in which it achieves this purpose. It provides for new structures to give applicants an absolute right to be heard and it provides for additional procedures and safeguards in the determination process.

At the heart of the Bill is the question of who is a refugee. It is, therefore, important that we should be clear as to what is meant by the term "refugee". The internationally accepted definition of a refugee is set out in the 1951 UN Geneva convention relating to the status of refugees, as amended by the 1967 Protocol. It is this definition that is used in section 2 of the Bill which provides that "a refugee" means a person who, owing to a well founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his or her nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself or herself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his or her former habitual residence, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it.

When the 1994 Bill was before the Select Committee on Legislation and Security, amendments were tabled to include within the definition persecution for reasons of gender, sexual orientation, or membership of a trade union. The previous Minister for Justice was sympathetic to the suggested amendments and promised to examine the matter in consultation with the Parliamentary Draftsman. We have followed up that undertaking and, as I mentioned earlier, the definition has been augmented by an explanatory provision in the definition section to the effect that membership of a particular social group includes membership of a trade union and also includes membership of a group of persons whose defining characteristic is their belonging to the female or male sex or having a particular sexual orientation.

The first substantive issue addressed by the Bill is the question of the legal status of a person recognised as a refugee in this State. Section 3 sets out the statutory rights of a person who is declared to be a refugee. These rights will apply to all persons already recognised as refugees in the State as well as to any persons recognised as refugees in the future. Section 18, which I will discuss later, provides that these rights will also apply to close relatives and other dependent relatives admitted to the State for family re-unification purposes.

Articles 3 to 34 of the Geneva Convention set out a number of specific rights which should be afforded to recognised refugees admitted into a State. This is an aspect that is addressed in section 3 of the Bill and the general approach taken is to give recognised refugees rights similar to those held by Irish citizens. Section 3, as is made clear from the first subsection, is not intended to be exhaustive. It is only intended to cover issues which are particularly relevant to refugees or where there might be a doubt as to the legal entitlement of a refugee because he or she is not an Irish citizen. Refugees will automatically have those legal rights which apply to all persons who are in this jurisdiction.

Article 33 of the Geneva Convention provides that no contracting state shall expel or return a refugee to the frontiers of territories where his or her life or freedom would be threatened on account of his or her race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion. It goes on to state that a refugee who poses a danger to the security of the country or who has been convicted of serious crime and who constitutes a danger to the community cannot claim the benefit of this prohibition on expulsion or return.

Article 33 is given effect to by section 5 of the Bill. Indeed, section 5 goes further than Article 33 in that it applies to all persons, not just refugees, and it has been decided not to apply the second paragraph of Article 33 which prevents certain categories of people from availing of its protection. The Government has decided that no person will be expelled to the frontiers of a country where the life or freedom of that person would be threatened on account of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion. The section is of general application and is not limited to applicants for refugee status.

I might add that, regardless of section 5, when a person is declared a refugee under this Bill that person cannot be removed from the State. It is only if that person's status as a refugee has been revoked in accordance with section 21 that the possibility of expulsion arises. Section 5 also incorporates a provision to put it beyond doubt that a person's freedom shall be regarded as being threatened if the person is likely to be the subject of a serious assault, including a serious assault of a sexual nature. This reflects concerns expressed during the select committee debate on the 1994 Bill that sexual violence can be used as an instrument of persecution.

I turn now to the procedures for determining whether a person is entitled to refugee status. The Geneva Convention defines the term "refugee" but the procedures to be adopted to determine who is entitled to be recognised as a refugee are left to the discretion of individual states.

One of the main purposes of the Bill is to provide for statutory procedures which are not only fair but are seen to be fair and which fully comply with our commitments under the Geneva Convention. To this end, the Bill goes to very considerable lengths to ensure that all valid applications are thoroughly examined, that every applicant has the opportunity to put forward a case and that there is a comprehensive appeals procedure. The primary purpose of the Bill, therefore, is to safeguard the rights of applicants and to ensure that no valid application is rejected. The State and the Government have an obligation to ensure that all applicants are fairly treated. However, we also have a duty to make sure that the interests and safety of Irish citizens are not jeopardised. In addition, as a member state of the European Union, we have obligations to the other member states in this area. The Bill has to take all these matters into account.

The Bill must also ensure that the refugee determination process is not abused. While we are all aware of the difficulties that can face genuine refugees in fleeing and escaping persecution, it would be foolish and irresponsible, however, if we did not also recognise that many applicants are seeking to escape from economic hardship rather than persecution. We may indeed have every sympathy for such persons but it must be borne in mind that the primary purpose of the Bill is not to provide a solution to problems caused by economic situations but rather to offer protection to persons fleeing persecution. Of course, even cases involving economic hardship may not be clear cut. There could be aspects of particular situations which would have to be examined to assess if genuine Convention grounds for seeking the protection of the State exist but such consideration must be undertaken in a way that ensures that the integrity of the asylum process is maintained. This is something which the UNHCR, in its discussions with us, laid particular emphasis.

There may, of course, also be people who apply for refugee status who pose a threat to the community. This category would include a hardened criminal such as a murderer or rapist fleeing either prosecution or detention in another country and hoping to explain his or her forged documents or lack of documentation by claiming to be a refugee. Indeed, such applications have recently been made in Ireland. It could also include a terrorist, or an agent working on behalf of a foreign government, who might try to avail of the procedures to gain access to the country with the aim of engaging in political violence. In addition, there are people who have gained international notoriety and are seeking a country of refuge. The Government has a very important responsibility to protect the public and the national interest against such threats and, accordingly, powers to detain such people and in certain cases to prevent them entering the country in the first place must be provided.

The Bill had to be framed to deal with all these types of applicants with the emphasis on the genuine applicant. I consider that the right balance has been struck by providing an extremely open and fair system for dealing with applications for refugee status which will be subject to a limited number of essential protective measures.

I would like to turn now to the details of the application procedures provided for in the Bill. The first step for most applicants will arise when they arrive at the Irish immigration controls at one of the airports or ports. The intention behind section 8 is that, if an immigration officer has reason to believe a person might be a refugee, he or she must be informed that they may apply for a declaration of refugee status. The person must also be told that he or she may consult a solicitor and the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. Persons will, therefore, have access to independent advice before they decide whether they wish to apply for a declaration under the Bill. The onus is being placed on immigration officers to inquire of a person they believe may be a refugee as to whether he or she wishes to apply because a refugee fleeing from a country of persecution could not be expected to be familiar with our law.

The situation will be slightly different for persons already in the State. Whether they are here legally or illegally, they will apply to the Minister for Justice and then be given an appointment for an interview with an immigration officer. At this point I draw the attention of the House to the provision in subsection (2) of section 8 which provides for the assistance of interpreters. The corresponding provision in the 1994 Bill provided for the assistance of an interpreter "where necessary and practicable". When that Bill was discussed by the select committee last year, amendments were put down to the subsection because Deputies were unhappy with the expression "where practicable". They felt that it unduly limited what they saw as an essential right to interpretation in the interests of fairness.

As Deputies may be aware, the provision was worded in that way to avoid putting an absolute onus on the authorities to provide interpretation on the basis that a person could refuse to co-operate and pretend not to speak any known language. However, because what the Deputies wished to achieve was essentially the same as what the Bill was intended to achieve, it was agreed that the provision would be re-examined. The parliamentary draftsman was consulted and asked to provide a wording which would put the highest possible onus on the authorities to provide an interpreter but allow for the rare and exceptional case where a person refuses to co-operate with our authorities. The wording in subsection (2) now refers to the provision of interpretation "where necessary and possible". I am satisfied that this will mean that interpretation will be provided in the normal course of events. A similar approach has been adopted in relation to the other parts of the Bill that refer to the provision of interpretation for applicants.

If a person makes an application for refugee status it will be referred to the Refugee Applications Board and the UNHCR will be notified. However, before I go on to elaborate on how applications will be processed I should mention what will happen to the applicant while the application is being dealt with. This is governed by section 9 of the Bill.

If the applicant has arrived from abroad then, once he or she makes an application for a declaration regarding refugee status, the immigration officer will be obliged to give the applicant leave to enter the State. I must emphasise, at this point, that the immigration officer is being given no discretion to refuse entry to any person who applies for a declaration. It is also important to note that with the exception of Dublin Convention cases — I will explain the situation in relation to such cases later — once a person is given leave to enter under this section, he or she will be entitled to remain until either the application is withdrawn or finally determined. This is important for the applicant as it means he or she can remain during the processing of an appeal.

However, under section 9(15) entry will be refused to persons who are the subject of deportation, prohibition or exclusion orders. These will be orders made in respect of named individuals who are believed to have committed a serious crime or to pose a threat on security or public policy grounds. Such orders are not and will not be made frequently and have to be made by a Minister, not an official.

In general, however, all applicants will be admitted to the State and, as I have already mentioned, under section 9(2), will be entitled to remain until an application has been processed. Similarly, a person who is already in the State, whether lawfully or unlawfully, will be allowed to remain until his or her application has been finalised.

Applicants who would not otherwise be entitled to enter and remain in the State will be subject to certain controls which are set out in section 9(4) to (14).

One such control is that applicants will not be allowed to work or go into business while their applications are being considered. In most cases, as at present, the taxpayer, through the health boards, local authorities or central Departments, will carry the cost of housing and maintaining asylum seekers. It must be remembered that asylum seekers are applicants for legal status in this country. If they are granted this status, of course, they can work, but until such a determination is made it would be inappropriate that they should be allowed to work and establish themselves in the State. We must be careful not to create conditions which could make it attractive to abuse the asylum procedures.

As I have mentioned, immigration officers will not have any discretion to refuse entry to asylum applicants and, accordingly, the general rule will be that such applicants will be given free entry into the country. However, if an immigration officer is clearly faced with a suspected foreign criminal or terrorist who is applying for asylum we do not wish to see such a person free to walk our streets. Section 9(8) provides that, in the circumstances listed in the subsection, an immigration officer or member of the Garda Síochána may detain the person in question. The 1994 Bill provided important safeguards in relation to detention in that every person detained had to be brought before a District Court which could order continued detention or release the person subject to certain conditions. Because depriving a person of his or her liberty is such a serious step, additional safeguards have been included in this portion of the new Bill. In the first place some of the grounds on which detention may arise have been amended. Under the 1994 Bill, a person could be detained if he or she failed to establish his or her identity or destroyed or had forged identity documents. During the debate on that Bill in the select committee, Deputies were concerned that these grounds did not take into account the situation of fleeing asylum seekers who might not have been in a position to obtain identity papers or whose only hope of escape was to use forged documents. The previous Minister for Justice accepted amendments to take account of such situations and they are included in this Bill. The section had also been amended to provide that a person under 17 years cannot be detained and the intervals at which continued detention must be reviewed by a court has been reduced to ten days from the 21 days permitted by the 1994 Bill.

To return to the processing of applications for a declaration regarding refugee status, the question arises as to who will investigate the applications. To ensure that the process is not just fair but seen to be fair, the Bill proposes that applications will be considered by an independent commissioner who will investigate each case to make a recommendation. Section 6 and the First Schedule provide for the commissioner who will be called the refugee applications commissioner. The commissioner will have had at least seven years' experience as a practising barrister or solicitor and is required by the Bill to be independent in the exercise of his or her functions. The commissioner will also have his or her own staff to assist in investigations and he or she will be in a position to provide an independent and objective assessment in each case as to whether the person concerned should be granted a declaration of refugee status.

Section 11 deals with the investigation of applications by the commissioner. The first step by the commissioner will be the appointment of an authorised officer to interview the applicant and to report on the application to the commissioner. This section gives an applicant an automatic right to an interview with an authorised officer. While the 1994 Bill envisaged such an interview it did not give an applicant any specific right in that regard and it was possible for an application to be determined without the applicant having the opportunity to present his or her case.

In addition to the interview and the commissioner's investigations the commissioner may seek the assistance of the Department of Foreign Affairs or the Department of Justice, or perhaps the UNHCR, in verifying the applicant's claim. The applicant will, of course, be free to submit material or representations to support his or her application. In every case the applicant must be supplied with the material and observations received relevant to the case so that he or she may rebut or explain any material which might not support his or her application.

While an applicant will be given every opportunity to present his or her case, and to be aware of any material which might militate against his or her application, the question of adversarial proceedings will not arise. It would be quite incorrect to envisage that there will be two competing sides in this process. The role of the commissioner will be to investigate all applications in an independent and objective manner and this will work in favour of all genuine refugees.

However, experience has shown that investigations of this type can be time-consuming as normally asylum seekers are from countries which are a considerable distance from Ireland. Our European partners have found that a significant proportion of applications are manifestly unfounded. This had led to considerable delay and expense in investigating such claims and has resulted in the investigation of genuine applications being delayed. The UNHCR is familiar with this problem and the executive committee of the UNHCR programme adopted a conclusion in 1983 to the effect that national procedures "may usefully include special provision for dealing in an expeditious manner with applications which are considered to be so obviously without foundation as not to merit full examination at every level of the procedure". The Ministers of Justice and Home Affairs of the European Communities, who are responsible for immigration matters, adopted a resolution in 1992 on manifestly unfounded applications for asylum. In keeping with the UNHCR conclusion, and the EC resolution, section 12 provides for a special procedure for manifestly unfounded applications.

If the commissioner forms the opinion that an application is manifestly unfounded, he or she may stop the investigation and advise the applicant why the application is considered unfounded. The applicant will have an opportunity, which includes the facility of an interview, to put forward the case that the application is not manifestly unfounded. If the commissioner remains of the view that the application is manifestly unfounded he or she will recommend that the applicant should not be granted a declaration. The applicant may, under section 16, appeal against that recommendation to the appeal board. I would point out that the applicant does not have to prove that he or she is a refuge. All that will have to be shown is that the application warrants a full investigation.

An application that is not dealt with as manifestly unfounded will be the subject of a full investigation under section 13 where the commissioner will submit a report and make a recommendation to the Minister. If the recommendation is negative, the applicant may appeal to the appeal board.

Section 15 and the Second Schedule provide for the establishment of the Refugee Appeal Board. It will comprise a chairperson who will have had at least ten years' experience as a practising barrister or solicitor, a representative of the Minister for Justice, a representative of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and two other persons. The appeal board can, under section 16, either agree with a negative recommendation of the commissioner or reverse it. In a case where the commissioner did not fully investigate an application because he or she considered it manifestly unfounded, the appeal board can direct the commissioners to carry out a full investigtion. One of the most important new provisions is in this section. It provides that an appellant will have a right to an oral hearing before the appeal board. This is a significant change to the 1994 Bill which provided for oral hearings only at the discretion of the appeals authority. It has been made because the Government believes that to be absolutely fair the procedures should enable an applicant to be heard by the persons who will make the final decision on his or her case.

The appeal board may direct any person to attend and produce documents for an oral hearing. It may also permit the applicant to present his or her case through a legal representative. The appeal board hearings will be held in private to protect the identity of applicants and their overall interests.

To avoid any confusion I should explain that, if the Commissioner recommends that a person should not be granted a declaration, the Minister will not make a decision on the application until after the Appeal Board has had an opportunity to consider any appeal.

Section 17 deals with the giving of a declaration that a person is a refugee. The importance of a declaration is that it is a formal recognition that the person named in the declaration is a refugee under the Geneva Convention and is entitled to the protection of the State.

The Minister is obliged by this section to grant a declaration that a person is a refugee where the Refugee Applicatins Commissioner or the Appeal Board has recommended that the person should be declared to be a refugee. The Minister can only refuse to give a declaration in the interest of national security or public order as provided for in the Geneva Convention.

I should emphasise that the power to refuse a declaration under section 17 will be confined to the specific circumstances of threats to national security or public order where the Minister would be so advised by the agencies of the State responsible for such matters. Indeed, I would expect that it is a power which would be seldom used, if ever. Nevertheless, it has to be included to cover a situation where security information on an applicant, which by its very nature cannot be passed to the Refugee Applications Commissioner, becomes available to the Minister and which indicates that the applicant poses a serious threat to the State. Of course, the norm will be that where the Commissioner or the Appeal Board recommends that a person be granted a declaration the Minister will be legally obliged to give the person concerned a declaration. Section 17 (5) deals with what happens to a person who has applied for refugee status but is found not to be entitled to such status.

The approach taken in the Bill is that applicants who are refused a declaration are being put in the position they were in before their made their application. If, before their application was made, they had no right to enter the State then, once their application has been considered and rejected by the Refugee Application Commissioner and the Appeal Board their right to be in the State lapses and provision can be made for their removal. I should point out, however, that the provision has been significantly amended to provide for a situation where, although a person is found not to be refugee, there may be grounds for allowing him or her to remain in the State. Accordingly, it will be open to the Minister to give that person permission to stay here on humanitarian grounds.

However, where the person has been found to have neither a case for refugee status nor otherwise to have grounds to remain in the State, his or her removal from the State may be necessary. I am anxious that the removal provision, no less than any of the other provisions of this Bill, should reflect the highest standards of natural justice. Accordingly, the Bill contains new provisions to ensure that an applicant is given ample notice of a proposed removal.

It is important that a country like Ireland should be generous in relation to the provision for reunification of families or refugees. The Bill provides in section 18 that on application and verification of the family relationship by the Refugee Commissioner, a close family member of a refugee such as a spouse, parent or child may be granted permission to enter and reside in the State. This provision is similar to the provision in the 1994 Bill. However, it has been augmented by two important further provisions. We are now providing that it is not only close family members who may be admitted to reside in the State but also other family members where a dependency relationship exists between the refugee and the family member. In addition, we are providing that family members permitted to reside here will be entitled to rights similar to those which the Bill guarantees to persons granted refugee status. These rights include the right to reside and travel freely. In relation to health, social welfare, housing, education, employment, religious freedom and access to the courts, family members and refugees will enjoy rights similar to Irish citizens.

I ask the Minister of State to bring her remarks to a conclusion.

Since the Bill is so lengthy and of such a technical nature, the remainder of my prepared script will be available to members. I shall deal, on Committee Stage, with any questions raised on any of the sections.

Bearing in mind the work already undertaken on the 1994 Bill — particularly those comments made by all parties in the House in the course of the work of the committee — this Bill reflects the desire of my Department to afford refugee applicants to this country the highest standards of fairness and impartiality, while being consistent at all times with meeting our international obligations as a State and securing our national security.

It has often been said that Ireland is the most difficult country to enter and the most expensive to leave, a sentiment not without some justification. While the remainder of Europe embraces a multi-cultural ethos without great difficulty and while some people might be uncomfortable with it, it must be said that Ireland has remained in the Middle Ages with regard to the granting of asylum and the declaration of refugee status to people exiled from their countries of origin out of fear of persecution or discrimination of one form or another.

We must also face the fact that the smug idea that the Irish are incapable of racist bias has been shored up by hugely prohibitive red tape in the processing of applications for refugee status here. Persons displaced from their countries of origin have often become subjects of an even more obstructive and debilitating syndrome while waiting in a surreal haze of indecision as the powers that be decide whether or not to grant them refugee status.

Against that background of indecision and injustice the previous Government introduced the Refugee Bill — one which the present Government now claims as its own — which is effectively a redraft of the Bill Fianna Fáil drafted early last year. Despite having a ready-made model from which to work, the Government has prevaricated and procrastinated in a manner that shows quite clearly the priority it accords the problems the original Bill sought to address. We must now face the Bill before the House and endeavour to move forward with it in as coherent, efficient and expeditious manner as possible.

The status of refugees is an issue which should strike a chord with every man, woman and child here who has any grasp of Irish history, our history books being littered with the names and deeds of those driven from our country out of fear of persecution. However, the downfall of history, all too often, is its relegation to the footnotes of modern times so that what appears to be a right of ourselves and our forebears is regarded as a luxury others scarcely deserve.

In deference to some members of the rainbow Coalition Government who believe they are under surveillance, I should point out that in some countries certain people are under surveillance, are liable at any time to be lifted out of life by powers that oppose their stance on human rights or political issues. Incidentally, I might say to those same members of the Government who believe they are under surveillance, they are at present under surveillance all right, not by private detectives, but by the electorate.

The provisions of this Bill should provide a mechanism whereby persons who live in fear elsewhere can be allowed live in peace here. We are familiar with the syndrome of people seeking to establish themselves as having refugee status elsewhere. It is the luxury of watching disaster unfold elsewhere which, in large measure, has blinded as to the very valuable role Ireland can play in the provision of asylum to those people persecuted elsewhere.

It is now timely to do more than bemoan the inadequacies of others, to establish a pro-active stance ourselves, in addressing the problems of refugees who present themselves at our door seeking help.

When enacted this Bill should from the basis of a sound future policy on refugees but the question remains whether or not it will so transpire. Section 3 deals with the extension of certain rights to those granted refugee status, seeking to confirm their right to enter into the workforce and to receive social welfare and health benefits once granted refugee status. However, I have one difficulty with section 3 2 (a) (iv) which states that such a person, in relation to whom a declaration has been made and is enforced:

shall have the same freedom to practise his or her religion and the same freedom as regards the religious education of his or her child as an Irish citizen.

At first sight, while this would appear to be a generous, well thought out, pluralistic-based provision, I should like clarification on the right of such people, while awaiting a declaration, to freely practise their religion and have their children's religious welfare provided for. A sinister interpretation of this section would simply consign such people to what I can only describe as a never, never land, while awaiting a decision on their application, where basic human rights are suspended indefinitely.

Similarly, in section 9 (4), the right of an applicant to leave the State during the processing of his or her application is restricted, it being made quite clear that such people shall not leave or attempt to leave the country without the Minister's consent. This may be perceived as an unwarranted restriction on the rights of such persons to move freely. While the purpose of this Bill is to monitor people's access to this country, it should not be construed as carte blanche to restrict their exit. Would it not be more prudent to replace the necessity of obtaining the Minister's consent by requiring notification to be sent to the Minister?

An amendment to this section declaring that the application of a person to be granted refugee status would lapse if he or she left the State before a determination of that application is desirable. That could be copperfastened by providing that a person could not renew an application if he or she were to have left the State pending the determination of the original application. I am unsure as to our duty, if any, to the applicant's country of origin to ensure that he or she is sent back there if an application for a refugee status is refused. The Minister might clarify this point.

I am concerned about the provisions of section 11 (6) and (7) dealing with the investigation of applicants by the commissioner. Those subsections reflect the classic legislation double-take where an ostensibly proper procedure is tempered and negated by a subsequent opt out clause. Section 11 (6) provides that the commissioner shall furnish the applicant with copies of any submission, documents or representations made to the commissioner by any party regarding the application under consideration. That would appear to accord with the principles of transparency and openness as well as the ethics of fairness. However, a difficulty with that provision arises in subsection 7 which provides:

Where information has been supplied to the Commissioner, a Department of State or another branch or office of the public service by or on behalf of the government of another state in accordance with an undertaking (expressed or implied) that the information would be kept confidential, the information shall not, without the consent of the other state, be produced or further disclosed otherwise than in accordance with the undertaking.

The provisions of this section are open to wholesale abuse and provide a ready-made excuse for the authorities to refuse applications on the basis of information received regardless of whether it is sufficient to warrant refusal of an application. The lack of a requirement to reveal that information to the applicant may provide the opportunity to refuse the application on spurious grounds which, because of the confidentiality aspect, are incapable of being properly monitored. The last thing I or, I hope, any other Member would like to see is a situation where the refugee legislation might become a means by which applicants are refused refugee status.

The provisions of section 12 which defines the parameters of a category known as "manifestly unfounded applications" causes difficulty. The scope for turning the refugee legislation into a preventative rather than a facilitating device appears to be present in that section. I am sure the Minister will be aware that Amnesty International published a document setting out its objections to certain aspects of the Bill while generally welcoming it. It also states that the category of manifestly unfounded applications is open to potential serious abuse and grave injustices. Amnesty International states that it cannot understand why all claims for asylum cannot be dealt with under the ordinary system. It also states that experience abroad has shown that the use of fast-track procedures save neither time nor money. I totally agree with the observations and criticisms of Amnesty International in that respect.

What the Bill will provide will be dictated by the manner in which we enact it. We should use this opportunity to set up a reasoned and sensitive refugee policy which will be effective and fair. We should view it not in isolation but in the context of Ireland's role in the new Europe and independently as a country which is probably more aware of and sensitive to the needs of problems of refugees.

Other questions and areas need assessment and action, such as housing, basic welfare and health care while applicants are awaiting a decision on their application. The establishment of resource centres is another issue which needs to be addressed. Will we seize this opportunity to provide a refuge for those in fear of persecution or will we wallpaper over the obvious cracks in our refugee policy? It is a choice which can determine the role Ireland plays in world affairs not only in coming years but into the next millennium. What faults there are in the Bill may become apparent when it is enacted. However, the most important single aspect of this legislation is the motive behind its enactment. When this Bill becomes law the true test of its efficacy will be the manner in which individual applicants or those who are part of a programme will be dealt with.

We are presented with a unique opportunity to reverse the general perception of Irish refugee policy by initiating one which is sensitive, reasonable and has at its heart the aim of protecting those who need it rather than immunising ourselves against the fears which others suffer. We do not need to be thought of as a country to which it is impossible to gain entry, but rather as one where it is impossible to achieve tolerance of the violation of human rights.

I wish to refer to other criticisms of the Bill made by Amnesty International and ask the Minister to seriously consider the concerns expressed. I am aware that the Minister of State, Deputy Burton, has a great interest in this area and will do her level best to achieve the maximum protection of human rights through this legislation.

Amnesty International observes that the Dublin Convention allows Ireland to send an asylum seeker to another European country in certain circumstances even if that results in the person being returned to the country from which he or she fled. On Committee Stage the Minister may accept that there is a need for a separate provision guaranteeing that asylum seekers will not be returned to the country from which they fled persecution. Amnesty said that it has documented evidence of that having occurred in the past.

Not in Ireland. It happened in other European countries.

Nonetheless, it is crucial that this legislation should take account of that possibility and that the law should be tightened to such an extent to ensure that could not happen to an applicant seeking refugee status.

Amnesty International raised other concerns about the provisions of the Bill and there is no need to deal with them in detail because I am sure the Minister is aware of them. It is important that its concerns would be expressed in this House to make the general public aware of the position.

It would be churlish of me not to say that this legislation is welcome. I also welcome the amendments to which the former Minister referred that were implemented by the Minister. Although the Bill has been amended once, a new one introduced and the old one withdrawn, it should not mask the fact that further improvements could be made to this legislation. I put the House on notice that Fianna Fáil will table further amendments on Committee Stage, having discussed the Bill in a constructive manner with interested groups and bodies. In general this is an enlightened Bill for an enlightened people who will certainly want to do justice to those who are fleeing other countries out of fear and persecution.

The Progressive Democrats warmly welcome this legislation, as we welcomed the previous Bill when it was before the House prior to the collapse of the last Government. It is regrettable that it has taken a modern State such a long time to put in place appropriate procedures, in line with our human rights commitments under international conventions. Over the years the State has been reluctant to enact proper legislation and procedures for asylum seekers. This is a much better Bill than the previous Bill which we debated under the last Government. It is an implicit recognition that the arbitrary secret and inscrutable procedures for asylum seekers practised over many years by the State would have no political support or the support of any member of the public in this modern age of adherence to our human rights commitments.

It is particularly significant that we are putting these procedures in place this year when we commemorate the 150th anniversary of the Great Famine, which caused many generations of people to flee Ireland because of economic and political conditions. In the 50 years that followed the Great Famine, nearly 4 million men, women and children left our shores. Sadly this drain has continued ever since. Its effect is felt daily in the lives of Irish people. Generations of people are leaving our shores to make a better life, economically and politically, in new countries. For generations our people have sought refuge in other countries from political and economic conditions which to them were intolerable. It is a supreme irony that our country, by its laws, for many years denied people seeking asylum in Ireland that sanctuary and welcome which we have so vocally demanded for our own people.

Our record has not been good. It has taken us almost 40 years to honour our commitments. Article 14 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights, to which Ireland is a party, enshrines the basic right to seek and enjoy another country's asylum from persecution. At best successive Irish Governments could be accused of inaction and apathy in this regard; at worst we have treated asylum seekers in a way that violates human rights. We have treated them inhumanly in many cases. We have denied them the protection we owe them under international law. They have been incarcerated in Ireland, often in appalling conditions and we have denied them access to justice. We have failed to meet many of the needs — medical, educational and social — of the few people we have grudgingly admitted into Ireland.

The contribution which has been made by the non-governmental organisations such as Amnesty International, the Irish Refugee Council and many individuals over the years who have committed so much of their time and effort to vocalising the need to put in place procedures for people seeking asylum must be recognised by Members. For many years very few Deputies under successive Governments have taken an interest in the field of asylum law.

I am pleased that many of the recommendations of those working on the ground — the Irish Red Cross, the Irish Refugee Council and Amnesty International, to name but a few — have been valued and included in the provisions of the Bill. The Minister's speech displays a welcome generosity of spirit. I congratulate the Government for bringing forward a Bill which has that generosity and a degree of openness which was missing from the previous Bill. This was well evidenced because of the good debate on Committee Stage of the previous Bill. I am pleased the Minister has been willing to address the concerns I raised on behalf of the Progressive Democrats in relation to the special needs of those people who are in flight from persecution which they suffer by reason of their gender or their sexual orientation.

As I pointed out on Committee Stage of the previous Bill, women may face a huge additional difficulty in establishing their right to asylum because they may be in flight from gender-based persecution. This form of persecution is as real and as terrifying as any other but it has never been given explicit recognition under the Geneva Convention.

The fear of persecution which entitles a person to asylum, under the Convention, must be based on a person's race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group of political opinion. Gender-based persecution has never explicitly been recognised as entitling an asylum seeker to protection. Although some countries have intepreted "social group" as encompassing gender this is by no means the norm. Women are often the victims of forms of persecution which cannot be applied to men. There are countries where women may be subjected by the State to forced abortion or sterilisation, for example in China. There are countries where the State may provide no protection from rape by Government officials or forced marriage or bride-burning. There are countries where the State provides no help, protection or sanctuary for mothers who wish to protect their baby daughters from hideous practices such as female genital mutilation. The Bill, as previously drafted, would have provided no effective protection for women fleeing their countries in such circumstances. Yet the terror and isolation of these women is as real in nature as the feelings of terror for people fleeing other forms of State persecution.

Women refugees may sometimes face additional difficulties in establishing a claim to asylum by reason of the fact that their applications may be dealt with by all male boards, who may have an imperfect understanding of their experiences, difficulties and fears. These women may come from cultures where it is customary for women to defer to men always and where men represent total authority. They may have had experiences of rape, which may be highly relevant to their application for asylum, but may not feel able to disclose that to a man.

Field workers in Bosnia have stated that many of the women there find it almost impossible to tell of their experiences without the careful and gentle assistance by trained counsellors. They are often so traumatised by what they may have gone through that any man will be an object of terror to them. In practical terms, I hope women who come from cultures much more segregated than ours who need the encouragement and support of other women and skilled counsellors before they can tell their story will be sensitively dealt with by emigration officials.

Training in international law and practice in relation to refugees will certainly be necessary for all those persons who are charged with dealing with refugees. I hope the Minister will consider some kind of training related to the particular needs of such women refugees.

I welcome also the Minister's recognition that the traditional definition of refugee has sometimes led to extreme difficulties in the case of homosexual men or lesbians, in flight from persecution in their own country. The persecution of gay and lesbian men and women around the world is well documented and, indeed, our record is not good. We have only recently rid ourselves of the legislation criminalising homoxexual activity between consenting males in Ireland. In certain Latin American countries gays have been subjected to torture and extrajudicial execution by State death squads. In Iran, homosexual activities are punishable by death. Amnesty International reports that in Mexico, Turkey, Costa Rica, Romania and other countries homosexuals may be subjected to arbitrary detention, torture and ill-treatment. When the previous Bill was before the House, many gay and human rights activists recommended to the Minister that protection be explicitly extended to gays and lesbians, but the request was refused. I am delighted, therefore, that this Bill contains a definition to include these categories of people. The redrafted provisions will put the position of those fleeing gender-based persecution or persecution based on sexual orientation beyond any doubt, and that is to be welcomed. In this respect, the Bill places Ireland at the forefront of progressive asylum practice and it is greatly improved in other respects also.

In section 5, which relates to prohibition of refoulement, a basic concept in refugee law, has been greatly strengthened. In the first Bill, the State was prohibited from expelling a person from the State if it was likely the life or freedom of that person would be threatened as a result but it ignored the fact that the State remained at liberty to expel a person in circumstances where they would be subjected to violence which would not kill them. The thinking seemed to be that it was appropriate to send them back to a country where they would be subjected to torture or other physical violence as long as it did not result in death.

On Committee Stage, we tabled an amendment which would have prevented the State from sending an individual back to a state in which his bodily integrity would be threatened. I am delighted the Minister has taken on board the spirit of this proposal by inserting a new subsection which makes it clear that a person's freedom will be regarded as under threat if he is likely to be subjected to a serious assault, including sexual assault.

Having tabled an amendment on Committee Stage of the previous Bill to give the Refugee Appeal Board discretion to admit additional family members, I welcome the fact that the definition of "family" for the purposes of family reunification has now been expanded.

I welcome also the composition of the Refugee Appeal Board. The original Bill proposed the establishment of a three person tribunal on which State interests were vastly over-represented. The new appeal board allows for the appointment to the five person body of two independent persons. It should be spelled out however, that the two persons, not being officers of the Minister or the Minister for Foreign Affairs, should be persons with expert knowledge in the field.

I am pleased the new Bill provides for mandatory interviews by the commissioner's official. The previous Bill simply gave discretion to the proposed refugee applications board as to whether the asylum seeker should be interviewed. This was a serious flaw in the original Bill. That this has now been addressed is one of the great strengths of the Bill before the House. It demonstrates a real commitment by the Minister to improve practice in this area. A number of areas in the Bill could be improved and I am sure we will engage in a fruitful debate on Committee Stage to improve certain technical aspects of it.

Section 12 permits the board to dispense with a full investigation in cases where it considers the applicant's claim is manifestly unfounded. This section is an improvement on section 12 of the previous Bill which only permitted an applicant whose application was regarded as manifestly unfounded to make written submissions to the refugee board. This Bill permits the applicant to request an interview with the commissioner's officials and this is a welcome change.

As Deputy O'Donoghue pointed out, the definition of "manifestly unfounded" remains problematic. The voluntary organisations also have difficulty with this definition. However, the grounds upon which a refugee's application may be deemed to be manifestly unfounded remain largely the same as in the previous Bill. These include cases in which the refugee did not reveal immediately that he or she had travelled under forged travel documents; cases where the applicant was untruthful in making his or her application and cases where the applicant gave what the Bill terms "clearly insufficient detail to substantiate his or her claim".

The concept of manifestly unfounded applications is used in other EU countries on an ad hoc basis and it is said that its use can be unfair to genuine refugees. The voluntary organisations argue that it must be confined to clearly fraudulent claims. I take the points the Minister made when she outlined the Government's position in this regard but the implications of this section will have to be teased out on committee Stage.

The criteria in the Bill may fail completely to acknowledge the realities of life for refugees. They are by definition, people whose status in their own country is irregular, people who have had to spin a tissue of lies to escape from their political tormentors. The forged passport or the false identity papers, which the Minister would seek to use to bar their claim to refugee status, will have been their only method of escape and, in some cases, their only hope of life. When they arrive at our ports and airports they are tired and confused and sometimes they do not even know which country they are in.

Refugees are traumatised vulnerable people to whom the idea of "the state" means terror, repression and tyranny. They may have been the victims of torture or other ill treatment and, therefore, they have a propensity to regard anybody in authority with great suspicion, particularly somebody asking questions.

People with first-hand experience of working in this field are agreed that it takes time and sensitive treatment before the fears of genuine asylum seekers abate sufficiently to allow them give a full and truthful account of themselves. We have reservations about the provisions of section 12 which could deny the very people whom we are trying to assist the right to have their application investigated. It could have the effect of riding a coach and four through the main benefits of the legislation. This "manifestly unfounded" obstacle could stop the whole process in its tracks. We intend to discuss that on Committee Stage.

We welcome the attempt to give some latitude to people travelling with false documents or who have destroyed their documents by giving them an opportunity to demonstrate that their action was reasonable and in good faith. That is an improvement on the position in the previous Bill.

We are concerned that the words "reasonable explanation" are capable of a number of interpretations and I hope the Minister will accept amendments on Committee Stage to temper the severity of this section.

The provisions of section 22 may also be problematical. It allows the Minister to implement the provisions of the Dublin Convention by ministerial order without debate by the Oireachtas. There is a certain déjà vu about this debate — we seem to have gone through all of this before—but I remember having quite a lengthy discussion about the Dublin Convention and how the European aspect of asylum law is implemented in secrecy. Many Members of the Oireachtas do not understand the implications of what is being agreed at Government level in the area of asylum law. There is the domestic aspect with which we are dealing here, and the European aspect and many Members are not au fait with the status of agreements between this State and other EU countries.

The Dublin Convention is an agreement between the member states of the EU which sets out the criteria for determining which state is responsible for examining an application for asylum lodged in one of the member states. The convention envisages that, where an asylum seeker has lodged his or her application in what the convention regards as the wrong state, he or she will be returned to the state specified in the convention.

The asylum procedures in several member states of the European Union fall far short of the ideal and indeed fall short of our provisions. The definition of a refugee and the manner in which that definition is interpreted varies significantly from country to country.

For example, Germany has rather strict and inflexible rules for granting refugee status while other countries have more flexible and generous rules. If the Dublin Convention is implemented there is a danger that genuine refugees entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention may be sent by the authorities in this State to another EU member state which will return them to the country from which they have fled. For example, an asylum seeker who arrives in this country in flight from gender-based persecution and whose application, if it could be made here, would be accepted under our new rules might, under the Dublin Convention, have to be sent to another country which does not regard gender-based persecution as warranting refugee status. This person may end up being returned to the country from which he had fled. Obviously this is unacceptable and we will have to address this difficulty in the Dublin Convention on Committee Stage.

One of the first principles of refugee law is non-refoulement, to which I referred in the context of section 5. This principle finds its expression in Article 33 of the Geneva Convention which provides:

No Contracting State shall expel or return a refugee in any manner whatsoever to the frontiers of territories where his life or freedom would be threatened on account of his race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion.

The non-refoulement guarantee is expressly stated in the convention to be non-derogatable, that is it may not be the subject of a reservation by a state ratifying or acceding to it. It covers not only direct refoulement to the country from which the refugee fled but also indirect refoulement or the sending of a refugee to a third state which will in turn return him to the state from which he fled. The principle of refoulement is one of the cornerstones of international refugee law. It is perhaps the single most important obligation assumed by the State when it signed the Geneva Convention and is enshrined in section 5 of the Bill.

The member states of the EU are currently engaged in a review of asylum law with a view to harmonising it. The Dublin convention should not be implemented in the State until this harmonisation has been carried out and only then if it is assured that the practice of all member states as well as the law conforms with the Geneva Convention. Given that the Dublin Convention is controversial and could, if implemented prematurely or in the wrong way, require the sending of genuine refugees back to the country from which they fled it must be discussed in a public forum before it is implemented in the State. The proposal to introduce it by way of a ministerial order is undemocratic and I ask the Minister to reconsider it.

A certain amount of tidying up could be done in regard to the position of people who have been given special leave to remain in the country while being denied refugee status. Under section 17 (6) the Minister has discretion to allow non-refugees to remain here on humanitarian grounds. This provision will be used with increasing frequency in the years to come. The pattern of refugee movements has changed out of all recognition in recent years, with huge population groups fleeing from war, other forms of generalised violence or violations of human rights on a massive scale. People who fall into this category may not be fleeing from the sort of personalised violence and persecution envisaged by the Geneva Convention but it would be morally repugnant to repatriate them forcibly. While some of these people will be admitted as programme refugees—we have a good record in this area, for example, the Yugoslavian refugees—under this section many others will be given leave to remain here on a case by case basis.

Another category of people who are not regarded as refugees may be given leave to remain in the country under section 5 which prohibits the Minister from returning people to a dangerous situation. People allowed to remain here under sections 17 (6) and 5 should be granted express rights under the Bill. Their status as people with humanitarian leave to remain here should be spelt out as they ought to have the same rights as proper refugees. The Bill affords them no rights or formal status and this point needs to be clarified and addressed.

The sections dealing with the provisions of legal advice and the assistance of interpreters should be strengthened. We regard it as very desirable that all asylum seekers should be entitled to free legal advice for the purposes of preparing their applications for a declaration or appeal. The Bill is very technical and the provision of legal advice is vital if people are to make correct applications. There is little point in advising these people that they have the right to a solicitor if they cannot afford to pay for one. Similarly, it is crucial for them to have access to a competent interpreter if they do not understand English. Under the previous legislation the provision of interpreters was allowed only in cases where it was necessary and practicable. This was an insufficient guarantee that interpreters would be provided and I tabled Committee Stage amendments which required the State to use its "utmost endeavours" to acquire the services of an interpreter where this was necessary.

I am glad this formula has been applied in section 16 (11) (d) so that on the hearing of an appeal the appeals board must use its "utmost endeavours" to get an interpreter. However, this requirement appears to be diluted at the crucial investigation stage. I ask the Minister to clarify this point.

Under section 8 the obligation to advise the applicant of his rights in a language which he understands and to conduct the interview with the assistance of an interpreter arises only "where possible". This provision may not be strong enough. What is more worrying is that section 11 which deals with the investigation of an applicant's claim does not give the asylum seeker any right to the assistance of an interpreter during the interview. There is no reason he should be deprived of this crucial assistance at such an important stage of the process.

Sections 9 and 5 require various kinds of notices in writing to be sent to the applicant which have extremely important legal consequences for him. There is no requirement on the State to ensure that these notices are in a language which the applicant understands. This is a serious flaw in the Bill. Comprehensive facilities to address the needs of asylum seekers for legal aid and translation facilities at all stages of the application and appeal process need to be provided.

The Minister has discretion to revoke a successful application on a number of grounds, including public policy. However, this is a residual executive power which should not be unfettered. The Minister's heart might be in the right place but we have to be very careful that the discretionary power which has the capacity to unravel a successful application is not unfettered. The purpose of the Bill is to ensure the highest possible standards of human rights in deciding applications for asylum. The discretionary power of the Minister to revoke a successful application on the grounds of public policy etc., is too loose. I have a natural fear of giving unfettered discretionary powers to Ministers and this point needs to be addressed further on Committee Stage.

I warmly welcome this good Bill which can be improved further on Committee Stage. I also welcome the generous tone of the Minister's speech. When these measures are put in place we can feel proud that we have adhered to the highest possible international standards for dealing with asylum seekers.

Having listened to the contributions of other speakers, I have a sense of déjà vu about this debate as there is very little I could disagree with. In many ways Ireland will never become a favourite destination for refugees in that we always appear to talk ourselves down. There has been reference to the poor performance of our economy and inclement weather. When the Bill is finally enacted—it is reasonable to assume the Minister of State will accept some amendments— we should have something of which we can feel justifiably proud. It looks as if it will be a landmark in terms of the way we treat refugees. I hope that instead of following the example of other countries they will follow ours.

In the 1930s Jewish refugees fleeing from Hitler's Germany were turned away from this country by the Department of Justice on the grounds that they did not assimilate easily and posed a threat to public order. In more recent times refugees were regularly incarcerated in Mountjoy Prison. Deputy O'Donnell indicated that she has a difficulty with the granting of discretionary power. That is an indication of the way in which it can be used. While the Minister has shown goodwill her successors may not do the same. There is, therefore, a need for us to proceed with care in providing for such a power in legislation.

Historically, the land of a hundred thousand welcomes has been anything but for refugees fleeing oppression and persecution. I have highlighted two instances where the refugees concerned must have been completely puzzled, having been assured by the people they had met that they would receive a warm welcome.

The reluctance to provide proper asylum procedures could perhaps be understood, but not condoned if Ireland was faced with a refugee crisis such as that which confronted Germany some years ago. Ireland has never been and is never likely to be a favourite destination for refugees. Currently, there are 564 applications awaiting determination. When we consider the problems faced in other countries we need have no fears in enacting this legislation.

For many years the average number of applications was less than 100. This scarcely constituted an avalanche; it was little more than a trickle. Yet, for years those calling for the introduction of comprehensive asylum legislation were greeted with the persistent cry "the Bill is in the post". The 1994 Refugee Bill introduced by the previous Administration was deeply flawed. I have made the point repeatedly that sometimes delays can work to our advantage and that we should take our time in considering legislation. That is the case in this instance.

In view of the concerns expressed by non-governmental organisations and the large number of amendments tabled during the course of the debate on Committee Stage it was decided to withdraw the 1994 Bill and introduce new legislation. This Bill is a vast improvement. The Minister of State, Deputy Burton, is to be congratulated for the efforts she has made to ensure that the procudures will be fair and transparent. I do, however, have some concerns which I hope she will allay on Committee Stage.

In recent years national initatives have been increasingly contrained by the parameters set down by the European Union. In many cases this has been a force for social progress. I am extremely concerned, however, that national human rights initiatives, such as asylum legislation, should be forced by instruments, such as the Dublin Convention, to conform to the lowest common denominator. The Bill contains a provision whereby the Dublin Convention can be introduced by ministerial order and draws on so-called third country provisions throughout.

Asylum laws very greatly throughout the European Union. With total unemployment approaching 20 million, racism and xenophobia are on the increase with the result that many countries are pulling up the drawbridge and excluding refugees. I share the concerns expressed by Deputy O'Donnell in this respect. If the Dublin Convention is enforced here, in some cases refugees will be returned to countries far less welcoming which will insist on their return to their country of origin. That is a source of concern.

Asylum laws in jurisdictions such as Germany and France are extremely restrictive and it is highly likely that a person who would be granted refugee status under the proposed Irish legislation could be refused when they applied in some other European jurisdiction. Under the Dublin Convention Ireland would be bound to return an asylum seeker who arrived from another member state to that jurisdiction, from where they might well be returned to their country of origin. While I recognise the constraints within which the Minister of State has to operate I hope she will include a provision to the effect that no asylum seeker will be returned to a jurisdiction from which they may be returned to a country where they may face persecution.

I am concerned about the provisions dealing with "manifestly unfounded applications". In particular, I am concerned that the applications of persons travelling with false, forged or stolen identity documents may be treated as manifestly unfounded. Refugees, by definition, do not queue up in the passport office in their country of origin to obtain travel documents. In many cases they flee with little more than the clothes on their back having given all they possess in return for forged or stolen documents, the means by which they can escape. That is the reality for asylum seekers. This is not recognised fully in the Bill and I hope it will be rectified on Committee Stage. In her speech the Minister of State was generous and allayed some of my fears.

I accept that the provisions in the Bill are an improvement on those included in the 1994 Bill in that an element of reasonable cause has been introduced. All the evidence shows, however, that a large percentage of refugees travel with irregular documentation. The onus should, therefore, be on the State to prove that it did not have reasonable cause for doing so. In general, the conditions which may cause an application to be regarded as manifestly unfounded are too broad and may well lead to a genuine refugee being refused.

I am also concerned that a declaration once granted may be revoked if, for example, conditions change in the refugee's country. We, more than anyone else, should know that a week is a long time in politics. In countries where persecution is rife political change may be short lived. A refugee whose declaration is revoked may be forced to return to his or her country on the basis that the political position has changed only to find he or she is the victim of persecution some months down the road. It is unreasonable to expect a refugee who makes his or her life here, establishes a career and forms a new family to take up their roots and return to a country where they may not have lived for ten or 20 years.

I am concerned at the provision whereby asylum seekers are to be detained pending determination of their application. This Bill is a major improvement on the 1994 Bill which provided for indefinite, repeatable 21 day detention orders. Nevertheless if these provisions are applied in their most stringent form an applicant could be detained from the moment of arrival until the application is determined at a future date. In effect a person who is neither charged nor convicted of a crime may be imprisoned indefinitely. I urge the Minister to look at this section with a view to further limiting the circumstances under which an asylum seeker may be detained.

The issue of interpretation has given rise to considerable concern and I am sure the Minister considered representations from various groups. They make compelling reading. It is important to make our concerns known to the Minister. In some cases asylum seekers will speak a European language probably English, French or Portuguese but in many cases they will only speak their native tongue or have insufficient command of another language to enable them put their case effectively. I know from experience that you need not be fluent in the language of another country to go shopping, etc. but it would be extremely difficult to explain a complicated matter to immigration officials or to the police. We can imagine how it must be for refugees who arrive here, distressed and not certain of their rights. Their application may depend on their explanation and how it is received. We can understand the necessity for interpreters and while I appreciate it is not possible to have interpreters for all languages every effort must be made to ensure a refugee's case is put properly. The provisions governing interpreters should be strengthened in the Bill and any information conveyed to an asylum seeker either orally or in writing should be in a language and form he or she understands.

With regard to the provisions on the family the Bill is a considerable improvement on the 1994 Bill. The inclusion of family members in any refugee legislation is important. Persecution may be extended to include all those associated with the victim and this is particularly true in the case of family members. That is why I am concerned that the definition of family appears to exclude a married child under the age of 18. That is probably an oversight but when we consider the cultural differences there is every possibility that such children may still be a member of the family. In many countries a child may contract a form of marriage at a very young age but still remain under the protection of his or her parents. I would welcome an assurance that in such circumstances a married child will be included in the definition of family.

An asylum seeker is entitled to legal assistance throughout the process and I welcome that. Negotiations are ongoing with UNHCR with a view to providing such assistance. However, refugees should be entitled to free legal aid and I hope that issue will be addressed.

In finalising this legislation we have an opportunity to put down a clear marker not only nationally but within the context of the EU which will ensure that Ireland is not part of the fortress Europe which we see rising around us. We can ensure that those who have been denied the most basic rights in another jurisdiction may find a safe haven here. This Bill goes a long way towards achieving that objective. Many of its provisions such as the absolute right to social welfare and other entitlements are unique and set new standards in international human rights practice.

There is no such thing as a perfect refugee Bill. Those working with asylum seekers and refugees will always be concerned that there may be a loophole which may not cover some circumstances that may arise.

I appreciate the Minister's efforts to cover all eventualities but I hope on Committee Stage she will take on board the concerns expressed by organisations such as Amnesty International, Refugee Council and Rescue Trust.

We will not be the first port of call for refugees looking for a safe haven. The majority of those who arrive here do so by default. Either they want to go somewhere else or are under the mistaken belief that they will be warmly welcomed and treated well here. This Bill ensures that in future we will be a land of a thousand welcomes. If the Minister accepts amendments on Committee Stage we will have fine legislation which we can hold up as an example to the world.

I join in welcoming the Bill and congratulate the Minister of State on the fair and impartial way she introduced it. The Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs discussed many issues relating to refugees. Yesterday we were privileged to have a delegation from Kuwait and discussed the plight of refugees in Iraq. The Ambassador and Ambassador Designate from Croatia and Bosnia also spoke about the issue.

It is particularly appropriate when commemorating the 150th anniversary of the Great Famine to remember the huge numbers of Irish people who had to flee this country and became refugees. Many countries experience war and famine, often the result of human action or inaction, and people are displaced as a result.

I hope some of the points highlighted by our spokesman, Deputy O'Donoghue, and others, will be taken on board by the Minister on Committee Stage.

I wish to refer to a meeting of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs at which a submission was made by an organisation known as Rescue Trust. That meeting heard horrific and courageous accounts by victims of torture who had to flee their own countries. The Minister received correspondence from Rescue Trust in which it suggests that a specialist centre be made available in Ireland to provide therapy to help refugees cope with the torture and trauma they experienced. The Minister of State was unable to respond positively on that matter but correspondence from the Tánaiste states that the Government does not envisage establishing such a centre. The major concern of the Government is how to deal with refugees within existing resources. This matter must be carefully considered.

I was interested to hear at the meeting the views of Senator O'Kennedy who referred to the Vietnamese refugees who came to this country when he was Minister for Foreign Affairs in 1979. At that time the main concern of the Government was to provide accommodation for these people. We must now do much more than that because we are dealing not simply with a question of accommodation but also health care, which in the case of refugees is not available under the general medical service, and special centres to help the victims of torture and trauma. The meeting heard a particularly horrific account of the personal trauma of Mohammad Al Sadar, a torture victim from Iraq.

It is most important that the points made by Rescue Trust are taken on board by the Government. There is no assistance available under the medical service for refugees living in Ireland — Amnesty International has also referred to this issue. Rescue Trust is not requesting Barrettstown Castle-type accommodation but a compact building which, with the sanction of the Minister, could be made available by the Office of Public Works. International donations and other assistance could be provided which would mean the State would not have to pay for the provision of such accommodation. I support the proposal that we take in 1,000 extra Bosnian refugees, but we must provide the resources for them. I hope the Government will respond in a positive way to the points made by Rescue Trust.

At the meeting of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs a submission was made by the Vietnamese Council in Ireland in which it outlined the problems experienced by Vietnamese people living here, particularly the question of families being split up. That council is anxious that measures are taken to help unite families which have been split up. It is concerned about education standards and believes that with the proper education these people, who also experience difficulties with the English language, would be able to help themselves. Other suggestions made include the provision of information leaflets from Departments on health care and so on and a translation service, which would be of great benefit.

I welcome the Minister's proposals on interpretation services. This Bill goes further than the previous legislation in that regard. Regardless of the size of a community — the Vietnamese community comprises about 600 people — services and opportunities should be provided for it. Every community wishes to have its own voice and culture and we should support them in that regard. The question of therapy for victims of torture who had to flee their own country must be addressed and I hope the Minister will comment on that matter.

The Harvard programme based in Boston is an example of a measure that should be taken in this area. The Government should consider correspondence issued to Rescue Trust by that organisation which works to help people who suffer trauma as such programmes are of great benefit.

A committee of the Council of Europe which deals with migration, refugees and demography and which has published a number of reports defines "refugee" as a person or persons who have had to cross the borders of their territory of origin because they were hunted or threatened by the authorities there. That is a very good definition with which we agree.

Debate adjourned.
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