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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Nov 1995

Vol. 458 No. 6

Bovine Diseases (Levies) (Amendment) Bill, 1995: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I am delighted to have an opportunity to speak about bovine TB on the day I published, in consultation with farming organisations and the Irish Veterinary Union, what I believe to be most historic changes in the TB scheme for 1996. I hope today will mark a turning point in the history of the TB scheme so that we can look forward to a future in which we can move towards final TB eradication. I hope the Opposition spokes-persons received a copy of the data which we arranged to send to them early today.

Before dealing with the Bill, I propose to address the broader issues of the disease eradication programme and the proposals I outlined to the farming organisations and the Irish Veterinary Union today.

Deputies will be aware that the economy and employment in the agricultural sector rely heavily on exports of livestock and livestock products. Access to export markets is underpinned by our relatively high animal health status and freedom from major animal diseases. Such freedom will continue to be decisive in maintaining our capacity to export as the animal health status is raised elsewhere and as consumers become more discerning.

It is in this context that we operate a number of measures to prevent the introduction of new diseases and to control, reduce and eradicate diseases in cattle. The most important measures in terms of human and financial resources are the TB and brucellosis programmes. It is important for perspective to realise that significant progress has been made in reducing the levels of these diseases. Currently over 90 per cent of the cattle population of seven million animals in the national herd are clear of TB while 99.9 per cent of cattle herds are brucellosis free. Thus the problem we have is with residual levels of infection which are proving notoriously difficult to reduce. Under current trading rules, it continues to be necessary to operate annual programmes for these diseases which are both costly to farmers and taxpayers and which cause particular difficulties and hardship for some farmers whose herds break down.

Since 1954, when the compulsory TB eradication scheme was introduced, total expenditure on both schemes is in excess of a billion pounds. The current annual cost of the schemes is almost £67 million of which about £20 million is spent under each of the headings, testing, compensation and administration with the balance on operational aspects. Since disease levies were introduced, farmers have contributed about £285 million while some £16 million has been received from the EU Veterinary Fund. Most of the EU funding received relates to the brucellosis scheme rather than the TB scheme for which we have received minimal EU funding to date.

Notwithstanding this major expenditure, it has not, unfortunately, been possible to make progress in reducing the residual level of TB in the past 20 years. While the country was declared officially brucellosis free in 1986, and notwithstanding various intensive programmes in recent years, there are a number of areas where there is still some infection and over 400 herds were restricted in 1994. Accordingly, it continues to be necessary to implement arrangements aimed at the total eradication of brucellosis using blood testing, milk ring analysis and other technology.

As regards TB, Deputies will be aware that under ERAD, an intensive testing programme was undertaken under a four year programme aimed at reducing the incidence by 50 per cent. The main conclusion to be drawn from that experience is that eradication is more difficult than had been envisaged. Indeed, the consensus now is that while some progress can be made, final eradication will be possible only when new diagnostic tests, vaccines for wildlife and movement control arrangements are in place. Pending the development of these to practical field application level, the emphasis must be to contain and reduce the disease and costs of programmes.

The House will be aware that on assuming office. I was faced with a situation under which EU funding had been approved for the 1995 TB programme. That programme provided for the rotation of testing between practices over three years. We sought to secure the agreement of the IVU for this programme in negotiations which continued over 15 months. Despite an offer to increase testing fees by 23 per cent over three years, the IVU rejected rotation following a ballot. It was incumbent on me to seek to draw down EU funding for a variety or reasons. We have received minimal EU funding for the TB programme over the years; because of IVU and farmer difficulties with aspects of the proposed programmes we failed to secure potential EU funding of about £10 million for three years which was agreed in 1991 and also to secure potential funding of £20 million a year over three years from 1993.

Implementation of the various approved programmes would have demonstrated to our EU partners our willingness to implement agreed programmes aimed at combating TB; secure EU funding which would have relieved some of the burden on farmers and taxpayers; and opened the way for continued support for our programmes.

For these reasons, and notwithstanding the IVU position, I sought to implement rotation of testing in phase three of the 1995 round. That effort was resisted and obstructed by the IVU. While this has resulted in the level of rotation achieved being at a lower level than we would wish, the position is that some additional rotation has been achieved. On this basis, we would hope to secure funding for the 1995 programme and we will seek further funding for the revised programme from 1996 onwards.

Nevertheless, the difficulty in securing EU funding for future programmes should not be underestimated. The Commission has made it very clear to us that it will not support the allocation of Community funding for a continuation of the status quo. Therefore, to receive funding, we will have to convince the Commission and the 14 other member states that we are making real changes, that the measures we are proposing will be at least as worthwile as those included in the 1995 scheme and that we can implement revised measures — all of this against the background of our repeated failures to implement a number of earlier approved programmes. It will be of benefit that we sought to introduce changes in 1995 when we seek EU funding in later years.

From an early stage, I made it clear to all concerned that in the event that it proved impossible to implement the approved programme for TB, the continuation of the status quo— involving on-going and escalating costs for farmers and taxpayers — was not an option. Realistically, in view of the IVU stance we could not continue to seek to implement rotation in 1996 as this would result in large-scale and unacceptable disruption of the testing programme and the cattle industry generally. Consequently, earlier this year I set about reviewing the measures that should be operated from 1996 and which would improve the effectiveness of the measures while at the same time moderating their overall costs. This review was undertaken in consultation with the farming organisations which, together with the Government, provide the funding for the schemes. At this stage. I pay tribute to the farming organisations for the constructive approach they adopted and the assistance they have given in developing the measures I have outlined today.

The main elements of the new regime I announced include the following: the continuation of orderly annual testing of the national herds and other testing designed to meet our obligations under EU rules so as to maintain our trading status; follow-up and focused strategic testing; a quality control programme; a comprehensive programme aimed at expediting derestriction of some herds in certain circumstances; a comprehensive research programme aimed at curtailing TB spread by wildlife; improved epidemiology and feedback to farmers who have serious disease outbreaks in their herds; and continuation of research on developing blood tests, vaccines and other technological tools required to improve the effectiveness of the programmes.

The revised arrangements involve a partnership approach to implementing and overseeing the operation of the new arrangements at national and local levels. Farmers will have greater direct involvement and responsibility under revised and more effective measures. In particular, farmers will choose practitioners to carry out the first tests on herds each year and negotiate and pay practitioners for such work; assist the Department in research work into disease spread by wildlife; and have responsibility for protecting their own herds and in particular for deciding whether to buy in cattle which have been tested before movement and whether to test them after purchase.

Coupled with the revised operational arrangements, I have proposed an intensification of control measures, a more focused approach to tackling infection, continuation of research and a rearrangement of the financing of the operational aspects of the schemes. As already mentioned. I am proposing that farmers would engage and pay practitioners directly for the first tests on their herds each year; as these costs were borne heretofore from central funds to which farmers contributed, the disease levies would be reduced to about £10 million a year for the first year. Thereafter, compensation and the operational costs would be shared by the Exchequer and farmers on a 2:1 ratio. Under the present funding arrangements, farmers pay some £28 million a year under disease levies. In overall terms, total costs to be borne by farmers would be reduced substantially for the compulsory aspects while some savings will also accrue from the discontinuation of the 60 day compulsory pre-movement testing requirement for internal movement. Apart from a reduction in overall costs, there will also be a more equitable burden-sharing of costs between farmers. Under the levy arrangements, costs are borne by farmers who supply milk, who finish cattle and whose cattle are exported live. Under the new regime, all farmers will contribute towards the costs of the measures.

I outlined these proposals to the farming organisations and the Irish Veterinary Union today. I have asked the organisations to let me have their reactions, if possible within the next two weeks so that hopefully we can proceed within a short time with the adoption of the necessary legal changes to underpin and support the new regime. The proposals I outlined represent the best course of action to be pursued over the next few years pending the development of more effective technologies to tackle eradication of TB. The proposed measures are the most effective we can implement at present and, moreover, they will contribute significantly to moderating the overall costs of the programme for the Exchequer and farmers.

The measures involve a more coherent and strategic approach where efforts will be better concentrated on real infection, laboratory and epidemiological considerations will be more widely used to assist with the more rapid derestriction of some herds and all sources of transmission will be tackled. In addition, I believe that farmers will welcome the additional involvement and responsibilities which I am proposing and that they will act responsibly under the new regime.

I also hope that the Veterinary Union will co-operate fully with the new regime. The union had very strongly and vehemently opposed the principle of structured rotation on the grounds that this would involve testing of non-client herds and, in particular, it could tend to undermine the practice structure. As the new measures envisage that farmers will choose practitioners, this source of difficulty has been addressed. There will, of course, be enhanced and structured measures to oversee the quality of the regime.

The main objective of the Bill is to provide a legal basis for the payment of disease levies on cattle exported direct to the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Forestry rather than as heretofore to the Revenue Commissioners who acted as agents for him. The Bill also proposes to increase fines from the levels fixed some time ago and includes a number of other technical adjustments to improve the effectiveness of the collection service.

The bovine disease levies which were introduced in 1979 under the Bovine Disease (Levies) Act required the farming community to make a financial contribution to the cost of the disease eradication programmes. Under this Act, inter alia, a levy was imposed on all cattle slaughtered in the State, on all live exports and on each gallon of milk delivered for processing. The current rates of levy are £7.30 on each animal slaughtered or exported live and 1.3p on each gallon of milk delivered. The cost of the programmes is some £67 million and farmers contribute £28 million annually by way of levies towards the costs other than those relating to administration. The Exchequer carries the balance and the cost of administration, the cost of the latter being in excess of £20 million.

Under the Bovine Disease (Levies) Act, 1979, responsibility for the collection of levies was given to the Revenue Commissioners in respect of live exports. On the completion of the Single European Market, most Revenue personnel were withdrawn from the export points and alternative administrative arrangements were put in place to collect levies on live exports. The proposed amendments do not involve any extension of the levy arrangements or any change in the rates of levy. Instead they are essentially of a technical nature and provide for a proper legal basis for the payment of levies on live exports by exporters to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry rather than to the Revenue Commissioners who under the 1979 Act were appointed as his agents. Nevertheless, I expect that I will be seeking the approval of the House for reductions in the rates of levy when the revised arrangements to which I have adverted have been agreed. However, such reductions can be made by way of regulations under the 1979 Act which have to be approved by both Houses.

A number of technical adjustments are also proposed to improve the supervision and inspection of the levy system. In particular, it is proposed to extend the definition of an accountable person to include a person by whom or on whose behalf an animal is being exported from the State, to remove the exemption in regard to the keeping of records by a person by whom or on whose behalf an animal is being exported and to provide for the inspection and removal of such records by an authorised officer of the Minister.

Provision is also made for increased maximum fines on summary conviction for offences under the disease levies legislation from £500 to £1,500.

I am also taking this opportunity to increase the maximum fines in respect of certain offences under sections 48 and 49 of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1966. These fines were last increased from August 1979 under section 23 of the Bovine Diseases (Levies) Act, 1979. The proposed increases are from £500 to £1,500 in respect of a summary conviction, from £2,000 to £10,000 in respect of a conviction on indictment for specified offences and from £1,000 to £5,000 for other indictable offences.

I was very pleased with the cordial, constructive and positive nature of my discussions with the IFA, the ICMSA, ICOS, Macra na Feirme and the IVU today. Without pre-empting their decisions, it was generally recognised that my proposals represent the most radical restructuring and overhaul of the TB scheme in the past 40 years. The proposal to reduce the levies on beef animals from £7.30 to £2.50 and to reduce the levies on a gallon of milk from 1.3p to a half penny will mean an immediate net saving to farmers of £4 million. In addition it is proposed to abolish pre-movement compulsory testing which presently costs farmers approximately £4 million. These measures are indicative of a new thrust in the scheme where farmers will have to take responsibility for TB in their herds in the same way as they would in case of other clinical diseases such as mastitis or BSE.

Instead of dealing with a monolithic scheme, State bureaucracy, red tape, inspectorates and testing restrictions, farmers will have to make sure they do not bring the disease into their herds. That is the shift I am seeking to bring about. At the same time I am seeking to decentralise the public sector pay and negotiation aspect of the scheme into the private sector so that farmers will have the same relationship with their vets as they have with their accountants, solicitors and merchants. We now have a great opportunity to modernise veterinary practices and I believe farmers and others will agree that this is the only logical way to proceed.

On the effectiveness side, I have taken stern action on wildlife. In future there will be farmer participation where licences are obtained and multiple licences will be granted. I wish to pay tribute to the Office of Public Works for its assistance in the bilateral talks and for ensuring that the projects in east Offaly will be extended to other areas.

On the question of non-specific infections, these are single reactors in individual herds. I am aware that some farmers were not able to trade for a year because of a false positive test. In future such farmers will be able to trade following one clear test where the disease pattern and history facilitate such a change.

These changes have not been easy to achieve. I wish to say a profuse thank you to my officials who worked intensively over the past four months and put forward what I regard as acceptable proposals. It is almost impossible to get two people at a meeting on TB to agree but the measures proposed provide a basis on which to deal with this problem over the next three years, starting on 1 February next year. It is also proposed to establish a mobile quality control unit which will move into black spot areas and carry out targeted quality testing in a focused way. I appeal to all interested parties to engage in earnest dialogue with my officials over the next two weeks. I am determined to proceed with the scheme and a decision is required by Christmas. I hope Opposition Deputies to whom I furnished data earlier today will have time to reflect on these proposals. I will be happy to provide them with briefing material on any of the complex issues.

This debate gives us a timely opportunity to address the fundamental reorganisation of the entire scheme. I commend the Bill to the House.

This technical Bill, which has been introduced because of the completion of the Internal Market, proposes to put on a legal basis the new system for the payment of disease levies on cattle exported direct to the Minister rather than as heretofore to the Revenue Commissioners who acted as agents for him. The increase in the fines will enable the Minister to deal with some of these technical matters. The Bill gives us an opportunity to discuss the proposals the Minister has brought forward today. I obtained a copy of these proposals only after I asked for it yesterday evening. It is important that we look at the deterioration in the TB eradication scheme, much of which has been of the Minister's own making.

The Minister has taken over his Minister of State's role in negotiations with the IVU for changes in the eradication scheme. I raised this matter on 29 June as a way of putting it back on the rails. I pointed out that we were not advocating the status quo but were concerned that the partnership approach was not evident when the Minister took personal charge of the negotiations. In reply the Minister of State referred to the need for the Minister's intervention prior to the ballot, which of course hardened attitudes and probably ensured its defeat. This may have been the Minister's intention all along — and I am not sure if it was — but his attempt to speak to the veterinarians over and above their union executive did nothing to improve the prospects of the agreed solution which was on the table if it had been properly handled.

One of the reasons it was not properly handled was that the Minister was probably the sole and most vociferous advocate of the EU situation he had inherited. A major condition in drawing down EU funding for the TB eradication scheme, according to Deputy Deenihan, was the "primary requirement that the testing of one third of the herds nationally would be rotated over the next three years". Evidently this was a gaffe, as nowhere in the proposals brought forward by the Minister today is there a reference to rotation testing. Obviously the Minister recognises that in the absence of a partnership approach it is not possible for him, to use his own words, to bring the veterinary profession "not only into the 21st century but drag them out of the 20th century". The pauline conversion to the partnership approach, which the Minister is now seeking to indicate, was not evident in his previous efforts to ensure confrontation. The Minister saw himself as the man on the white horse who would deliver to the EU and would ensure that testing of one third of the national herd would be rotated. It may not have been his own preference.

He makes a wonderful difference from Deputy Joe Walsh.

That is debatable, but I will discuss it later. The Deputy has obviously gone off the law and order tack, which was a very slippery slope, and he is now coming back to matters on which he might have some more competence. I will not be disrupted by the Roscommon beagle.

The deterioration in the TB eradication scheme is the Minister's sole responsibility and any efforts he makes to mend his fences will be welcome. The Minister's reference in his speech to a partnership approach is the first instance I have seen where he understands that improvements will only be brought about on the basis of agreement with everybody involved. His advocacy of rotation testing was on the false assumption that a soft test was being conducted for many years by veterinarians. That prejudice against the professionalism of the veterinarians has been proved to be unfounded, not by my assertion in this House but by the fact that spot testing carried out by departmental staff indicated that private veterinarians identified a higher incidence of TB reactors in the national herd. That is conclusive evidence that the assumption that lay behind the attack on members of the Irish Veterinary Union was unwarranted. The Minister was wrong in seeking to continue with that tack. As long as he was behaving in that way he was gaining great kudos from those who were paying for the scheme. Obviously the Minister made the political calculation that there are far more farmers than veterinarians — I see him nodding in agreement — and for that reason he decided that if someone is to be blamed for the inadequacies in the TB eradication scheme, it should be the veterinary union. However, he failed and continues to fail to tackle the one area under his control, the acknowledged prohibitive cost of administering the scheme which is one third of the cost of the scheme.

In outlining his new approach the Minister suggests that an assessment of the administrative costs will form part of the strategic management initiative. This is under the direct control of the Minister but no decisions have been taken on how to reduce these costs. Too often the rhetoric does not meet the reality. The Minister has come forward with a new approach, and he has some very welcome ideas on epidemiology and how to improve the comparative tuberculin test which has served us well since the mid-1950s in terms of reducing the incidence in the herd from 33.3 per cent to a minimal 0.5 per cent.

Many involved in research in this area have been highlighting that the lateral spread of TB should not be regarded as the primary source of TB infection in the national herd. There is a need for more accurate testing and confirmation as to whether we have been getting false postitive to false negative results in the national herd so that we achieve the eradication of the disease and maintain our disease free status. Our consumers at home and abroad need to be reassured that we are trying to eradicate TB from the national herd.

In the new approach outlined by the Minister the only figures mentioned are those that will receive an immediate positive political reaction. Under compulsory aspects of the scheme—fine detail introduced by the Minister—he stated farmers will pay only £10 million and that under the present arrangements, farmers pay some £28 million a year under disease levies. Veterinary surgeons and others will have many questions to ask about the deregulation of the scheme if what the Minister outlined today are simply proposals. However, it is clear from parts of his speech that he made decisions, irrespective of consultations.

The Minister welcomed the contribution of farmer representative organisations to the partnership approach, but hopes the measures proposed will meet with the approval of members of the veterinary profession, obviously because he has not had a similar level of consultation with them as with the farm representative organisations. There is a political element to the Minister's approach that may not be dominated by the question of the eradication of TB from our national herd. The hallmark of this Minister has been to assuage the vested interests who cause him the most trouble or can give him the best press. He may laugh and dismiss what I am saying——

I am not. I am interested in whether the Deputy is for or against the scheme.

The Minister will not get carte blanche approval from me in respect of these proposals.

I would not expect that.

I will study them. If he were on this side and I in his position, would he give carte blanche approval to proposals from me?

The motivation behind some of the aspects of the scheme may not be as concerned with the eradication of TB as with assuaging vested interests.

The Irish Veterinary Union acknowledged that a number of its proposals relating to non-specific infection and epidemiology have been included in the scheme proposed by the Minister.

I already indicated that on first reading I welcomed some of the proposals. Obviously, the proposal not to lock up a herd for two tests in respect of non-specific infection would be welcomed by all farmers. In doing so we should not contribute to the spread of disease, but that is a scientific and epidemiological consideration beyond my competence. We would welcome agreement between the Department's technical staff and members of the Irish Veterinary Union on that matter. I have already pointed out that there is agreement on the inadequacy of the comparative tuberculin test. The test used to detect the level of incidence of one in three is now required to detect the level of incidence of approximately 3 in 1,000 and, therefore, must be more scientifically based.

I have never gone on record as approving the status quo in this regard. I am concerned at people belatedly seeking to obtain a partnership approach when such an approach was available at all times. When a decision was made on a proposal, a Minister committed to consultation was not prohibited from re-entering negotiations for the purposes of resolving the problem, but that did not happen. The loss of confidence in the scheme by one of the major participants did not bring credit to the Minister who merely referred to a confrontational approach. He appears to be surprised at the cordial meeting he had today with the IVU, but in the interest of being courteous to a Minister, some of them may have held their tongues. The Minister's blunt messages in the past few months would not cause anyone to be cordial towards him and the recent spot tests carried out by the Department proved that it could not detect a higher level of incidence than veterinary surgeons.

We must get away from the politicking on this matter in the past six months. While the Minister may have made short-term gains it is easy to recognise the political astuteness of his proposals about farmer participation at local level and so on. I do not have a difficulty in that regard. It was farmer participation, with committed staff in the district veterinary offices, who did not always receive the finance or resources one would expect from the Department, that enabled the east Offaly project to be a success. However, that is an observation in defence of those involved in the project which may be inaccurate. The east Offaly project is sufficient evidence to enable the Minister to make certain decisions. The proposals he outlined will allow him carry out further assessments and verification of what happened in the east Offaly project. That project stands on its own merits. From the representations I made about the project, I am aware of the level of Office of Public Works reticence to go down this road in identifying the causal link between diseased wildlife and disease in cattle. Efforts to improve the relationship between the Department and the Office of Public Works would be welcomed. For obvious reasons, the Minister may not publicly admit that the east Offaly project shows that in TB blackspot areas there is a causal link between diseased wildlife and disease in herds. In some cases up to 40 per cent of diseased badgers were taken out of areas which resulted in a significant reduction in the incidence of TB in herds. I live near the Rahan area where many of those problems arose.

Rather than carrying out further studies, decisions should be taken. I hope some of the aspirations put forward to compromise with the Office of Public Works on this matter will not mean a delay in similar, more focused and better resourced projects in other blackspot areas. The continual existence of diseased badgers appears to take precedence over the livelihoods of farm families. Lovers of wildlife should recognise that there is ample scientific evidence to suggest that intensive eradication of diseased wildlife in TB blackspots would not affect the badger population.

The Minister said in the appendix to his proposals that many studies have been made of the badger population. The idea that the badger may in any way be at risk by confronting the issue in those TB blackspots areas is totally unfounded.

The Department indicated before the publication of this document that this issue would be confronted in a more immediate way than is being suggested. I encourage the Minister to ensure that whatever compromises reached with the Office of Public Works are not a bluff or a deferral of dealing with this matter and to ensure that areas like east Offaly, which were affected by bovine TB in the past—they have improved quickly due to the uniqueness of that project—are not deferred on the basis of further consultations and assessments of the project. This project showed the farmers in the area were correct in suggesting it was not a bovine to bovine spread but that the wildlife, especially the badger, had a major impact on the level of bovine TB. The issue should be addressed urgently. I am concerned with the area of these proposals, although I only had a peremptory and preliminary look at them. There is a greater movement of cattle here than in any other EU country, which is the reason there had been a need for many pre-movement tests. Is it correct that a 30 day pre-movement test will not be required for movement of cattle here unless they are for live export?

There is no compulsory pre-movement test if the animals pass the one year test. However, if a farmer is exporting live animals within the EU, there is a 30 day export search.

Since we have more internal movement of live animals than any other country and have test days. I am not convinced this provision will solve the problem. I can see how popular such a proposal would be but I am concerned it will not ensure the disease free status of our herd and I will need to get further advice on this.

It will backfire.

Whether this will work or not is open to question. Deputies involved in the cattle trade, like Deputy Ellis, may have more to say on this matter. That struck me as a weakness in the arrangements and I need to be convinced we are not going too far in seeking to accommodate the interests of sellers without putting buyers at risk.

I welcome some provisions of the Bill, such as the D restriction involving non-specific infections. It has been a great injustice that the infection of one animal has meant that two clearing tests were required for the rest of the herd and the holding up of the sale of cattle from that herd, especially when subsequently no lesions were found on the animal concerned. We will withold judgment on what is proposed.

I would like an indication from the Minister on whether these are propossals. It had been suggested that a two week period will elapse to allow the people involved to make their observations on this matter. It is clear from the level of consultation with the farmer representative bodies that the Minister secured agreement with them on that matter before it was published and that is not surprising. The professionalism and commitment of other people has been questioned by the Minister on numerous occasions, without justification. He did so on the basis of a simplistic analysis of what has happened with the TB eradication scheme, given that there has been a low level of incidence that the disease can remain latent in shedding and elsewhere over a number of years and be reactivated, the high levels of movement in our cattle and that they have had to deal with a comparative tubercular test which served us well when the incidence of TB was higher. Too much criticism has been laid at one door without justification. The Minister's spot testing in the Department did not give credence to his side of the case in that respect.

I thank the Minister of State at the Department, Deputy Deenihan, for giving us that information at Question Time. The Department usually operates on the basis of giving us the minimum but at least we got that much from him publicly. The information showed that spot testing was less severe and that there were not as many incidences of infection as the veterinarians operating the scheme had said. I await their detailed consideration of this matter. Deregulation, the farmer-veterinarian link, the impact this will have on small veterinary practices and to what extent the farmer will be paying over and above the non-compulsary aspects must be carefully examined.

The Minister referred to farmers paying £10 million under this new proposal. Since this scheme was run by the State, they have had to pay £28 million in levies towards its cost. There is no indication from the Minister's proposals as to how much he thinks will have to be paid directly to the veterinarians.

I understand £14 million will be paid.

Is the Minister saying that farmers will make a net saving of £4 million?

Leaving aside pre-movement tests, which also costs another £4 million.

There must be a pre-movement test.

Now we know the level of savings. The Minister said his proposals will lead to a 64 per cent reduction in the payment of levies, which is correct. However, he does not outline what the direct reduction will be between the payment of levies and veterinarians which is a new charge in the scheme.

This Bill gives us an opportunity to confirm that the Minister has relented on rotation testing. He cannot introduce changes which do not involve some modicum of co-operation with the veterinary union. It also proves the idea that the Minister needed rotation testing for getting EU funding was based on a false premise because he says he is confident of drawing that funding down. He has not confirmed, despite being asked at Question Time and elsewhere, that the level of rotation testing in the national herd in the third and fourth phase this year was no more than 3 per cent.

In replying to an Adjournment Debate question raised by myself, the Minister of State at the Department, Deputy Deenihan, confirmed that one third of the national herd would have to be tested on a rotational basis over the following three years. The Minister is saying he is confident of drawing down that £4 million and subsequent money from the EU for the TB scheme this year although we know that rotational testing does not involve more than 3 per cent of the national herd.

The Minister also indicated at Question Time last week, when his proposals were well nigh completed for today's meetings, that he did not rule out rotation testing for the following phases of the herd——

Is is estimated that about 20 per cent of the total round will be rotated this year.

I would like to go through that in greater detail, possibly at Question Time. Will the Minister explain how it is that the only rotations that took place were in the third and fourth phases and they only account for 10 per cent of the national herd? That would mean they were tested twice.

We rotate over 10 per cent and the other is on top of that.

As regards the rotation on testing, the Minister claims 10 per cent of the national herd was tested under the new arrangements.

We anticipate that we will rotate 50 per cent of the third phase. No decision has been made on the fifth or sixth phase.

As I stated, 50 per cent of the third phase is only 5 per cent of the national herd.

Debate adjourned.
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