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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 23 Nov 1995

Vol. 458 No. 7

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Military Property.

Ivor Callely

Question:

8 Mr. Callely asked the Minister for Defence the identified surplus or under-utilised Defence buildings; the consideration, if any, that has been given to likely uses of such buildings; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [17206/95]

In accordance with Government policy any military property outside of barracks which is surplus to requirements and which is not required for other State purposes is offered for sale. Buildings within barracks which become surplus to requirements are converted for other military uses where appropriate.

This matter is kept under continual review taking account of, inter alia, the spread of existing barracks and posts and the necessity to maintain security and operational efficiency.

The Minister referred to consideration of the use of such buildings for other purposes. Will he indicate what buildings had been considered and what other Departments expressed an interest in using them or are they offered to them?

They are. I am advised that in certain circumstances where an alternative use, for example, tourism, local amenity, etc., has been identified for a specific property, these properties are offered to the relevant local authority for such development. For example, the National Museum is developing Collins Barracks. At present the only buildings identified as surplus to requirements are the old abattoir building and staff house in the Curragh. If the Deputy has a property in mind and gives me details of it, I will have the matter investigated.

Has the Minister's attention being drawn to the public concern about the need for prison places? Some former Defence buildings may be appropriate for use as open prisons similar to European or American models. Given that many hardened criminals benefit from the revolving door system, does the Minister and the Minister for Justice see a role for under utilised or surplus Defence buildings in this area?

We do not have them. I have been accused of trying to close barracks. I hope the Deputy is not suggesting that we should convert some of our barracks into prisons. I do not know what would be involved in terms of security requirements for a prison, whether closed or semi-open. We have not received such requests nor have we properties suitable for use as prisons. I think the Curragh was used for internment purposes in the 1950s but I do not know of other barracks that could be used as prisons. There are none available for that purpose nor are any likely to be available in the foreseeable future.

I am surprised the Minister and the Minister for Justice or their officials have not put their heads together to check if such buildings are available.

They are not.

The Minister said he was not sure about that. There are insufficient prison places and due to that convicted criminals are let out of prison on temporary or early release. Under-utilised Defence buildings could be easily converted to provide prison places. As convenor of the Select Committee on Legislation and Security I had an opportunity to visit an open prison in Virgina. Perhaps we should consider establishing one here.

I understand St. Bricin's Hospital is under-utilised and the heating system heats the whole building. I am surprised the Minister is not aware of this. Will he investigate it and report back to me?

The Deputy is making statements he cannot stand over. I ask him to mention one property under my control that is suitable for use as a prison.

I am not the Minister. If I had to I would tell the Minister. What about St. Bricin's?

Does the Deputy want to turn St. Bricin's into a prison?

Then, what is the Deputy talking about?

It would be ideal for the provision of long stay accommodation, not necessarily prison accommodation.

Let us hear the Minister's response, otherwise, I will move on.

The Deputy went off on a tangent. He told me the crime rates which he believes have suddenly increased since he left Government warrants turning some of our accommodation into prisons. The only buildings identified as surplus to requirement are the old abattoir building and staff house in the Curragh.

I asked about under-utilised Defence buildings and their possible uses.

I answered the question tabled by the Deputy and his supplementaries related to the need for more prison places and facilities available to the Department of Defence that could be converted into prison spaces. There are none. I have no intention of turning St. Bricin's Hospital into a prison.

I did not ask about that. I said it could be used to provide long stay accommodation.

If the Deputy would like to table a question about St. Bricin's Hospital, I will give him a comprehensive answer about the number of patients, the level of use and its capacity and I will consider the matter. We cannot jump from the issue of prison places to long stay beds for patients in an Eastern Health Board hospital. The Deputy should not make wild statements he cannot stand over. I answered his questions. The Department is not aware of any available space that would be suitable for conversion to a prison.

I thank the Minister for his response and I am pleased he will carry out an inquiry in respect of St. Bricin's Hospital. My question related to under-utilised and surplus buildings. The question has been posed that there are a number of buildings which, from an optical point of view, seem to be under-utilised and would they be available for a prison. My question clearly asks the likely uses of such buildings. My understanding is that St. Bricin's Hospital is under-utilised at a time when there is a huge demand not only by the Department of Justice but by the Department of Defence for long stay accommodation. I am surprised there has not been some liaison between the Department of Defence and other Departments where there is a huge need. I have mentioned only two; I could mention others but I will not.

The Deputy will have to understand that no politician, Minister or otherwise, can stand up without prior notice and say how St. Bricin's Hospital is utilised and the number of patients there. I could say it has 50 patients while the Deputy could say it has 100. I do not know the number of patients but we can find out. Presumably if the Eastern Health Board wanted assistance from the Department of Defence it would seek it. The Eastern Health Board is responsible for the provision of beds for long stay patients. Surely the Deputy does not expect the Department of Defence to approach the Eastern Health Board and ask how matters are progressing and what it can do to help it. Surely the Eastern Health Board would approach the Department. In reply to the Deputy's question I said:

In accordance with Government policy any military property outside of barracks which is surplus to requirements and which is not required for other State purposes is offered for sale.

If there are particular premises which are required by other State agencies for State purposes we will certainly consider them.

Tell us the mechanisms.

If the Eastern Health Board or the Department of Health is seeking places presumably it will ask the people it thinks can help.

The Minister waits until people come knocking.

I have no doubt that the Deputy, as a member of the Eastern Health Board, will be raising this matter with the health board. Has he done so and, if so, what was the answer?

I have raised two questions today but I could raise another ten.

Did the Deputy raise this matter with the Eastern Health Board?

I am not the Minister. Surely the Minister should be proactive.

That concludes questions for today.

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