Vol. 460 No. 8
25 Mr. B. O'Keeffe asked the Minister for the Marine if he intends to raise the fact that many of the Spanish trawlers which have been found fishing in the Irish Box have previous convictions with the EU; and the measures, if any, he proposes to bring to the EU for consideration in order to ban such fishing boats after conviction. [1725/96]
I fully agree with the Deputy that penalties for serious and persistent breaches of fishing law must be tough, effective and consistent right across Europe. I am fully committed to getting greater commitment to a system of maximum deterrents in all member states.
Over recent years Ireland has been forcing the pace on the penalties issue in Europe and we have set the standard for others to follow in having a very tough regime by European standards. Since 1994, a regime of hefty fines and confiscations of nets, catch and boats has been available to Irish Courts. Experience of the current legislation is kept under constant review and I am always prepared to consider the scope for going further.
Our control and enforcement regime and the related penalties are paying dividends. Boardings are going up and detentions, proportionately, are going down. Of itself that demonstrates fishermen are being forced increasingly to accept that illegal fishing is not worth the risk. This is an important point which indicates that illegal fishing is decreasing because of the penalties those engaged in such fishing will face.
However I am not satisfied, frankly, with the level of penalties and enforcement elsewhere and we will continue to pursue with Spain and other member states as well as the Commission the need for firm action by flag states to put a stop to their boats committing offences in EU waters. Suspension or withdrawal of licences by the flag authority is an obvious option where offenders are caught repeatedly breaking the law.
On the face of it, Ireland does not have the legal discretion to impose unilateral bans on other EU fishing vessels with entitlements to fish in our waters. As I said, however, I am keeping the legislative options here under close review. I will also continue to pursue our long standing agenda to stiffen the resolve of other member states to crack down hard on non-compliance where we demonstrate that their vessels are committing serious offences. I am determined to safeguard stocks and eliminate illegal fishing in our waters and I expect no less from other member states and the Commission.
I welcome the Minister's response. There is plenty of evidence that there are habitual offenders in this regard. The Spanish seem to be to the fore among these offenders. Does the Minister agree that these people are pirates and saboteurs?
The number of boardings is increasing and that may also reflect an increase in the number of incursions into forbidden territory. In terms of the size of these vessels and the overall catch, it has been accepted up to now that the number of confiscations and fines imposed is minuscule and does not serve as a deterrent. I ask the Minister to seriously examine the current legislation and in particular the penalties we impose. We need a common European policy in this regard because in most countries when persons habitually commit, say, motoring offences, their licence is revoked. What I am calling for now is not inconsistent with what is accepted across the European platform.
I cannot disagree with the Deputy but I maintain the reason we have increased the number of boardings is the improved surveillance system. The assistance of the Air Corps, through use of the CASA aircraft, together with the technology now in place, ensures that our Naval Service can direct itself to the areas where the maximum amount of fishing is taking place. Without that assistance and co-ordination we could have 100 naval vessels patrolling our seas but they might not meet the maximum number of fishing vessels. If we can identify those vessels from the air and through the use of other technology available to us, we can direct surveillance vessels to the exact locations. We have a great deal of information available to us in that regard.
I am particularly concerned about flag states, be they Spanish, French, etc., and we must not differentiate between one member state and another. If the law is broken the same penalties will apply to Spanish, French or British vessels. We should not concentrate solely on the Spanish fleets and ignore the actions of others. The Spanish are not the only people breaking the law. If a British registered vessel owned by a Spanish company or individual breaks the law, the flag state is responsible for the activities of that vessel. The EU has an obligation to ensure that, wherever the boat lands its fish, we have the necessary information about it. Vessels must not be allowed to fly flags of convenience and then break the law by fishing wherever they like.
A proposal I put forward is that if somebody consistently breaks the law, they should lose their licence. If a person consistently breaks the law in relation to, say, drink driving, their licence is revoked or if somebody breaks company law they can be put out of business — we had to change the law to ensure that. I do not see any difference in this area. We are fed up having to defend ourselves against allegations from the fishing industry, the media, etc. We do not have anything to defend. We agree with everybody that if individuals break the law, they should be dealt with. We can implement laws, provide the necessary resources and put in place surveillance methods but in the final analysis we must have the co-operation of all EU member states in monitoring vessels fishing illegally in the waters of another country which return to a safe haven where they can land small fish or quantities in excess of their entitlements. The Commission must assume its responsibility in this regard by having spot checks in various European ports to ensure that EU law is being adhered to. I support the Deputy in the views he has expressed because they coincide exactly with my own.
We accept there should be no distinction between offenders in terms of penalties, regardless of the flag they are flying, but is it not true in the case of the evidence available so far, both on illegal fishing and convictions, that more than 80 per cent of the offenders were Spanish? Also, will the Minister agree that the fishing regulations in Spanish ports are less rigorously enforced than in most other EU countries?
We do not have a problem with the French, Dutch, Spanish or any other country sending inspectors here to ensure that we are adhering to the law at our landing points, provided we can do the same in those countries. The best solution would be for the EU to carry out spot checks, through its own inspectorate, and it is up to each member state, in the interest of EU policy, to allow that. They should not have to give notice that they intend visiting on a particular day because we all know if that were the case everything would be in order during the inspection. They should have the authority to carry out inspections without notice to ensure that the law is being adhered to. That is the only way to resolve this problem which must be approached on an EU level. I can give a categoric assurance to the House that I will do all I can, particularly during our Presidency, to put in place proper laws to ensure fair play for everybody and, in particular, conservation proposals which will guarantee the long-term future of the industry.
I welcome the Minister's comments. In putting forward the proposal with regard to revoking licences I take it the Minister also put forward the proposal regarding the inspectorate. What was the response from other EU states to that proposal? Does the Minister believe that during the term of our EU Presidency he can succeed in having these two proposals accepted?
Under our law we can confiscate a vessel and the owner has to buy a new one. However, the crunch comes when the owner applies for a licence for the new vessel. I have asked that we consider imposing a fine equal to the value of the vessel rather than confiscating it but if we are to succeed in this regard there is little point in adopting a tough stance if it is not agreed at European level. We must try to persuade the other member states to agree to the revocation of licences or some penalty to be imposed by the flag state on the person who continuously breaks the law.
In relation to conservation, we have put proposals to the European Commission — we were the first member state to do so — and we intend to follow up on those. I am hopeful we will succeed in getting this item on the agenda of a European Council of Ministers meeting at a stage where we know it will be passed. As the Deputy knows, there is little point putting forward a proposal if it will be defeated. It is better to persuade people to one's own point of view so that when the item is eventually on the agenda, it has a fair chance of being passed. That is what we are doing.
