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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Feb 1996

Vol. 461 No. 2

Ceisteanna—Questions Oral Answers. - Interdepartmental Task Force on Border Counties.

James Leonard

Question:

2 Mr. Leonard asked the Taoiseach the plans, if any, he has to set up an interdepartmental task force on the Border counties in order that the maximum benefit can be derived from available funding for that region. [2361/96]

The funds for the development of the Border regions are currently administered by a variety of Departments and agencies. Some of the funding is specific to the Border areas which also benefit from national funding programmes. To ensure that all these funds are maximised for the benefit of the Border regions, I have asked the Minister of State at my Department, Deputy Carey, to review existing arrangements and to recommend whatever steps may be appropriate so that the maximum effectiveness of the funding is achieved.

There are 36 programmes in operation in the Border areas which are administered by nine bodies including ADM, the Combat Poverty Agency, the IFI, local authorities and county enterprise boards. There are also nine Government Departments involved, including the Taoiseach's Department. Experience heretofore has been that there has been no co-operation between those Departments and agencies. Will the Taoiseach agree there is need for such co-operation, particularly in view of the criticism by the EU audit service in its recent report when it stated that administration of the funding did not meet the objective of the peace and reconciliation programme? It requested that the position be changed.

I agree with the first part of Deputy Leonard's question there is a multiplicity of bodies spending money in the Border areas. I agree with the suggestion inherent in the question that an interdepartmental task force is needed to bring the various bodies together to ensure coherence in the various expenditures. For that reason I have asked the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, at political level in my Department to chair such a task force to ensure the relevant level of co-ordination is achieved to get value for money and maximum benefit for the people living in the Border areas. The Deputy should be happy we are acting on this matter. In appointing Deputy Carey I am appointing a Minister who has a good practical knowledge of the operations of local government and who can work effectively, with all the diverse interests in this area, to achieve a good result.

On the second part of the Deputy's question relating to the appropriate spending of the money and the criticisms of the auditor, the Minister for Finance will deal later, at Question Time, with that matter. He will outline arrangements being made, particularly in regard to additionality and establishing a base line for additionality to ensure that extra moneys provided for Border areas because of the problems experienced in them will be over and above what would otherwise be spent. The Minister for Finance will outline how that will be done. As a result of the decision to appoint the Minister. Deputy Carey, to chair an interdepartmental task force, there will be effective follow through on this matter. There will be an appropriate contact point for public representatives and others interested in Border areas to ensure the desired results are achieved.

I will be interested to hear what the Minister for Finance says on additionality. Has the Taoiseach changed his view since 27 October last when, as reported in the minutes of a meeting with the north-west cross-Border group, he stated that increased funding to the Border areas could not be achieved because it would interfere with the target of 2 per cent increase in public spending and that money would have to be redirected from other areas? He also said that the drawing down of European funds was not a priority for the Government. Has he changed his view in that regard?

Obviously the Taoiseach is concerned at the multiplicity of agencies charged with spending money in the Border areas. Why were two new agencies, ADM and the Combat Poverty Agency, given responsibility for administering peace initiatives money in the Border area? Will the Taoiseach indicate when the interdepartmental task force which will be chaired by the Minister, Deputy Carey, report? The funds have been available for some time and in three years' time they will be expended. It is important the report is available before then.

There are four parts to the Deputy's question. On the first part, when I met the group, I drew attention to the realistic point that there are limits on Government spending in any given year which must be taken into account in the context of demands made. Any politician of experience, particularly a former Minister such as Deputy O'Hanlon, who is well used to dealing, as he did effectively when Minister for Health, with a limited budget will understand that. On the second point — and I make no apology for this — I regard achieving results as the objective of the Government's approach to the use of EU funds, not drawing down funds as a value in themselves. I have detected in the past a tendency to regard maximum draw down rather than maximum results as a guiding principle, and I do not consider that as appropriate. I make no recantation of what I said in that regard.

Can the funds be redirected?

On the third part of the question concerning the multiplicity of bodies, the establishment of separate bodies in terms of the peace initiative was a European requirement, in other words the people who provide money believed that a separate body was necessary for that purpose. On the timing of the report by the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, no decision has been taken on whether a report in that sense will be presented. It will be a matter for the Minister to decide whether ongoing management on the basis of agreed criteria would be a more appropriate function for him to perform rather than the simple production of a report. There is no question of a report being produced. I assure the Deputy he will be welcome to table parliamentary questions to the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, who will answer them in either of the two national languages.

While Deputies representing Border areas will welcome someone as nice as the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, having responsibility for those areas, it is indicative of the Government's lack of emphasis on those areas that it assigns responsibility for them to the Minister of State with responsibility for the west. It has not appointed a Minister or a Minister of State with specific responsibility for those areas.

Will the Taoiseach agree that previous Governments and Ministers for Finance were able to draw down the maximum amount of EU funds for Border areas and keep within the budgetary parameters they set? The Government should earmark some of the extra £17 million available over and above ADM and Combat Poverty moneys, which have not been designated, to provide proper infrastructural facilities, mainly industrial, in counties such as Cavan and Monaghan. I draw the Taoiseach's attention to the Fianna Fáil motion in this regard on the Order Paper. In my county of Louth there are also difficulties in providing industrial infrastructure. We are informed that if £5 million——

Progress at Question Time today has been particularly sluggish.

It is turgid.

We have disposed of only one question in half an hour. That is not good enough. I need to expedite matters and I am sure Deputy Ahern will co-operate.

(Interruptions.)

Unfortunately the six Border counties sometimes experience similar difficulties to those experienced by the six Northern counties in the House of Commons in that they are not given due regard.

Let us have brief, relevant, succinct questions.

Will the Government consider Border counties in that regard?

The cavilling and grudging approach adopted by the Deputy to the announcement of the responsibilities of the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, is similar to that adopted by members of the Deputy's party on county councils all over Ireland when they heard of the major increase in road grant allocations to councils.

That is a three card trick.

And it will be found out.

They must find something to complain about. They make comparisons with what is allocated to other counties. The Deputy's party should recognise positive news.

They are being choked on success.

I tabled two questions to the Taoiseach which he transferred to the Minister for Finance. Deputy O'Hanlon said the Taoiseach told the committee that he was keeping spending under control, but that has now changed. The Taoiseach also said that to increase funding to Border areas money would have to be redirected from other areas or sectors. I would be interested to hear the Minister for Finance's response in the light of what the Taoiseach stated publicly.

We are dealing with questions to the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach is aware that under the operational programme European Regional Development Fund funds amount to £1,100 million and Cohesion Funds to £2,600 million, but the Border counties do not qualify for Cohesion Funds.

I expect brevity.

I am asking a question. There are nine sections under which application for European Regional Development Fund funds can be made, but Border counties qualify under only three of those sections.

The Deputy is embarking on a speech rather than asking a relevant question.

While I welcome the announcement that the responsibilities of the Minister of State will be extended to include Border areas, the promise of additionality is lukewarm. There is a prima facie case that in the past additionality has not been a problem——

I am sorry to intervene but the Deputy is proceeding by way of speech rather than question.

The monitoring committee of the INTERREG Commission would be interested in how additionality has been applied in the past. Will the Taoiseach guarantee that it will be possible to draw down the maximum amount of funds available to Border regions——

That should be more than adequate.

——given that Border counties are entitled to only a small proportion of those funds?

We want to obtain the maximum drawdown of funds to secure the maximum benefit for people living in County Donegal and other Border counties. That, rather than filling the coffers of a Government Department, is the overriding consideration. That is common sense and I have no doubt the Deputy would agree it is an appropriate priority. In order to verify additionality, the Minister for Finance has requested all Government Departments spending money under INTERREG or the peace initiative to give to the Department of Finance details of forecast expenditure under each operational programme and community initiative for the eight regions. Those forecasts would provide a baseline, a reference point for establishing additionality. That is an effective measure taken by the Minister for Finance upon which he will elaborate when answering questions after the time allocated to these questions expires. I hope the Deputy will allow the Minister for Finance to give more detailed answers which he is qualified to do.

I want to be treated the same as other Members, nothing more or nothing less. When I table a question I demand the right to ask a supplementary.

The Deputy has asked more than one.

Not a word was said about the long-winded contributions we have heard.

The Taoiseach said I should have been happy. I would have been happy if he had set up a task force 12 months ago. Agreement to its establishment had to be dragged out of the Taoiseach today similar to dragging a rabbit out of a hat. During the past 12 months Members representing Border regions have asked for a refocusing of the operational programme. The EU has asked the Government to do that, but not one programme has been refocused. Such refocusing is the priority. As a result of programmes not being refocused, there is a lack of industrial infrastructure in Border areas. The IDA has no money and we cannot find a bob in any programme to fund necessary industrial infrastructure in those areas. This matter should have been addressed 12 months ago after the Washington conference, not now.

Last week I tabled a question on funding for tourist angling which is provided for a scheme which falls between the operational programme and INTERREG. The project has been approved under the operational programme, but not one programme under INTERREG has been approved in my county. That is why programmes need to be refocused and a structure should be established to review them.

I remind the Deputy that his party negotiated these programmes and if their focus is improper, it was set when his party was in office. Given that refocusing would be on a programme basis, it can occur only when the mid-term review arises. The Government will consider the opportunity for appropriate refocusing of funding in light of the experience gained from the first part of the programme. The Deputy should recognise where the proper responsibility for the focus of these programmes lies.

There is money available under the Delors package.

To ensure optimum political direction to achieve co-ordination and maximum results in this area, the Interdepartmental Task Force on Border counties chaired by the Minister of State at my Department, Deputy Carey, will report regularly to me on this matter. He will have the full co-operation, assistance and support of the Minister for Finance.

EU officials asked that it be done.

On a point of order, four of my questions have been transferred from the Taoiseach——

Deputy McDaid, please resume your seat.

Despite the fact that I had four questions tabled——

We have taken two questions in 40 minutes; yet Members are not satisfied.

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