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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Feb 1996

Vol. 461 No. 2

Order of Business.

It is proposed to take Nos. 9, 10, 11 and 1. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Private Members' Business shall be No. 22 and the proceedings on the Second Stage thereof shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. tonight.

Are the proposals for dealing with Private Members' Business satisfactory and agreed? Agreed.

Will the Taoiseach outline to the House the action the Government intends to take in relation to the report of the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General? As Minister I brought forward that legislation which is different from what we dealt with in the past because we extended its remit. The various bodies — health boards, vocational education committees — are covered by this particular report. In the normal course of events the relevant Minister would take whatever action was necessary but these bodies have the same powers as Government Departments had previously. A number of important matters are raised in the report and I wish to highlight one in particular.

Did the Deputy not refer to legislation?

The point I am making refers to the Bill we are discussing today, the Misuse of Drugs Bill.

We must not have any elaboration now.

The report of the Comptroller and Auditor General states that there is a general absence of proper control over pharmacy stocks and that the financial implications of such poor control——

The matter of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report does not arise now. Doubtless the House will have an opportunity of debating that matter later.

There is not much point in the Comptroller and Auditor General providing a report to the House if no action is taken on it. The Comptroller and Auditor General is highlighting the general misuse of drugs in the health service.

There are ample ways and means, in accordance with the procedures of this House, to deal with the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. May I ask the Taoiseach if he has an observation to make on legislation in this area?

May I ask the Taoiseach what he intends to do with that legislation?

I am not aware of any legislation in the area unless I am corrected in that regard.

There is no legislation promised in the area. The Deputy's questions, therefore, are not appropriate to the Order of Business but I do not wish to deny him information on a matter of this nature. The report will have to be considered immediately by the bodies directly concerned as they are the ones most appropriate for taking action thereon. Furthermore, the report will be considered by the Committee of Public Accounts and the Government will be communicating with that committee, which I believe is chaired by a member of the Deputy's party. It is appropriate that the matter be dealt with by the committee established for that purpose, which has existed since the House was formed.

Will the relevant Ministers responsible for the health boards and vocational education committees take the same responsibility as if it were a matter concerning their own Departments?

Of course not.

I cannot allow Question Time now.

There is little point in saying that Ministers have the same responsibility for devolved bodies as they have for what happens in their own Departments. Ministers will take responsibility in so far as their statutory responsibility extends but in the first instance it is a matter for the bodies themselves to take action.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Cooney's appointee.

Deputy Ahern should not expect otherwise given that we have devolved responsibilities to these boards under law passed in this House, In so far as the Ministers have a responsibility they will take that responsibility seriously and I have already indicated to the Deputy that we will be reporting to the Committee of Public Accounts. I suggest to the Deputy that if he wishes to raise matters relating to the Committee of Public Accounts, such as this report, the appropriate place to do that is in the Committee of Public Accounts, not on the Order of Business where they do not come within the rules as understood.

This is the first time we have received such a report from the Comptroller and Auditor General——

Sorry, Deputy, the report does not arise now. That is very clear

——and if we are concerned about controlling these matters, we must take an interest in them.

The Deputy is scraping the barrel this morning.

It is nice to see Deputy Dukes back again.

I am sure you, a Cheann Comhairle, and the Taoiseach would wish to sympathise with the family of Mr. Danny Fanning who was murdered in my constituency last night by a gang with Dublin and Northern Ireland accents. May I ask the Taoiseach the proposals he and the Minister for Justice have to curtail this horrific type of murder and indeed the type of crime committed during the week where 12 people were fortunate not to be killed in an armed raid on the Minella Hotel? Five shotguns were used in that raid. Will the Taoiseach include in those proposals the removal of the right to remain silent and expedite changes in the bail laws to help the Garda Síochána in its battle against crime?

There are ways and means, in accordance with the procedures of this House, for dealing with delicate and tragic matters of this kind.

On pending legislation, will the Taoiseach consider a proposal to remove the right to remain silent?

The Deputy can table a question on that matter.

We will defend the Deputy's right to remain silent.

That is a disgraceful remark.

The Minister was silenced and given a job.

I wish to raise a matter I raised yesterday. When I asked the Taoiseach about the response given by the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy De Rossa, on 23 January he said that replies to written parliamentary questions later in the day would clarify the matter. Despite the fact that replies to parliamentary questions are normally available at approximately 4.20 p.m., when my office contacted the Department of Social Welfare at 5.50 p.m. it was told the replies were being redrafted. These questions were submitted five days ago, the matter was raised in the House on 23 January and the response of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges——

I am not prepared to have a rehash of yesterday's rather unruly proceedings.

A special unit has had to be set up to investigate the answers.

There are ways and means of dealing with the matter. A substantive motion has been tabled, item No. 35 on the Order Paper in the name of Deputy Joe Walsh.

Can we take it now?

The Committee on Procedure and Privileges is also seized of this matter and will doubtless deliver its opinion on it in due course.

It is a disgraceful matter.

We must not anticipate these considerations. I will hear no more about the matter.

I wish to raise a question on promised legislation.

On the question of Ministers telling the truth to the Dáil the Taoiseach told the House in November 1994 that: "Fine Gael in Government will ensure that when answers to questions asked in the House are not adequate the Ceann Comhairle will be given a power to demand that a further answer be given".

That was then.

He went on to say: "It is only by that change will it be possible to ensure that the Government of the day is fully accountable". When does the Taoiseach propose to give this power to the Ceann Comhairle? I spent last night examining the response given by the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy De Rossa, checking dictionaries and talking to people in the advertising business. The advertisement was directed at a target audience, a select few, and for the Minister for Social Welfare to say——

The red brigade.

The Deputy is proceeding against my ruling and I will hear no more on the matter. The Private Members' motion dealing with this matter can be taken next week if Members so desire and I will convene a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges as early as possible. I think the House has precedents in this matter and I am waiting to find out if it is the intention to utilise Private Members' time next week to deal with the issue.

When does the Taoiseach propose to give you this power, a Cheann Comhairle?

It is not legislation.

The Minister for Social Welfare stated yesterday in the Dáil that he did not mislead the House——

But he did.

——and I believe that that is the case. The communication within his political party seeking people to assist him in giving political advice in regard to Government business was not an advertisement in any normally understood meaning of the term.

Then what is it?

(Interruptions.)

The same brazenly hypocritical Opposition parties would have said the Minister misled the House if he had said the communication was an advertisement. They cannot have it both ways.

The Government cannot have it both ways.

If that has been the only means whereby he could have made it known he was seeking applicants for this position they would have said that was not an advertisement.

They are five Democratic Left advisers.

They are now saying that because he said it was not an advertisement he misled the House.

(Interruptions.)

I had sought to ensure that there would be no debate on the matter now and I am sorry it has taken that trend.

May I——

Not on that subject, Deputy. I will not hear it.

I am sorry, a Cheann Comhairle, but I am looking for the truth in this matter.

The ball is at your feet in this regard.

I expect you to provide an opportunity to enable us to get the truth in the House. I want to know if the Taoiseach will provide Government time for this motion so that we can get the truth in this matter.

That was raised yesterday morning.

But we did not get an answer.

Will the Taoiseach give a simple answer, yes or no?

(Interruptions.)

The matter in question appears in a column headed "vacancies". All newspapers——

I have ruled the matter out of order. Demonstrations of that kind are not in order, Deputy.

The Minister for Social Welfare is a sham and a disgrace.

It is obvious from the succession of trivia raised by the Opposition parties this morning that the principal vacancy is in their political programmes.

The Taoiseach is prepared to defend the Minister for Social Welfare to the death.

One hundred thousand pounds of taxpayers' money is not trivia. No wonder the country is in such a mess.

(Interruptions.)

Deputies have utilised all the procedures open to them to deal with this issue. Deputy Walsh has put down a motion and the matter is before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. Let us not anticipate these procedures.

This is a very serious matter.

I know that but I am not prepared to entertain it now.

An effort was made to conceal information from this House. The secretary of Democratic Left now seems to be responsible for taking on staff in the Department of Social Welfare at taxpayers' expense.

Deputy Walsh, please desist.

This is the first time the House has been deliberately misled.

Please resume your seat, Deputy.

The House has been told a deliberate lie and there is a coverup by the Government.

Deputy Walsh is being disorderly.

(Interruptions.)

Order, please. I am proceeding to the business ordered.

On a point of order——

It is difficult enough to maintain order in the House——

It is a point of order.

Unless it is seen to be a point of order and not disorder that kind of ruse will not work.

I am seeking your guidance, a Cheann Comhairle. In recent days we have been informed that the matter can be raised by way of substantive motion or by bringing it before the Committe on Procedure and Privileges.

That has been done.

Deputy Walsh has put down a motion which may be taken during Private Members' time some time in the future. We have asked the Government to provide time——

I am aware of that and it has been replied to by the Taoiseach.

A report ont he file of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges about allegations made by Deputy Jim Mitchell recommends that disorderly allegations made in the House should not be referred to it but should be dealt with in the House.

I would much prefer if the Deputy waited for the debate on the matter.

I ask you to decide on that matter. There is a precedent whereby the Committee on Procedure and Privileges has recommended that these allegations should be taken in the House and not referred to it.

If Deputies wish to refer a matter to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges I do not see any function for me in it.

The Committee on Procedure and Privileges has thrown the matter back on the Dáil, according to that report.

I would prefer if the Deputy raised these points during the debate which doubtless will ensure on this matter in Private Members' time.

I am asking you to give a ruling on it.

I am not prepared to give an instantaneous ruling on such matters. This House is not a court of law.

I am not asking you to give an instantaneous ruling on it.

On proposed legislation, given that the Taoiseach has more stomach for dealing with Fine Gael Ministers and Ministers of State and that the Minister of State, Deputy Gay Mitchell, has allocated 50 per cent of the local development fund to his constituency——

(Interruptions.)

That matter does not arise now. I must ask Deputy Harney in all seriousness to raise that matter at the appropriate time in the appropriate way.

I wish to ask another question on promised legislation. Given that the Minister for Defence told the Dáil on 16 November 1988 that where there was favouritism in giving out public funds or where there was an abuse of public funds Fine Gael would not stand for it in Government, what will the Government do to ensure that——

I am sorry, Deputy Harney, but I cannot facilitate you now and you know that. I call Deputy Micheál Martin.

What does the Taoiseach intend to do to ensure that there is——

I have called Deputy Martin and if he does not respond now I will not call him again.

There is favouritism in the Minister of State's constituency.

On a separate issue relating to promised legislation, when will the Government bring forward its legislative proposals appertaining to early school-leavers? It was clearly illustrated in a recent report by the European Social Fund Evaluation Unit that there has been an alarming reduction in expenditure on early school-leavers, from 8 per cent to 3 per cent, under this Minister for Education.

If there is no legislation promised in this area, the Deputy may raise the question at some other time.

The relevant legislation is the truancy Bill. It is promised legislation.

A general education Bill will be introduced in the House later this year. Furthermore, it is hoped that school attendance legislation, which has been in need of reform for many years, will be brought forward in the second half of the year.

In excess of £400,000 out of a budget of £900,000, was allocated to the constituency of the Minister of State, Deputy Gay Mitchell——

That is untrue.

Will he explain the position to the House?

Deputy Wallace, please resume your seat.

(Interruptions.)

A sum of £5.5 million went to the Deputy's constituency and £5.5 million went to Deputy Haughey's constituency.

Deputy Mitchell hijacked a few million pounds for his constituency. The bottom line is that he is looking after his own.

If I do not hear something relevant, I will proceed with the business ordered. What we have heard so far is totally disorderly and a serious abuse of the Order of Business.

Deputy Byrne is the backbencher of the year.

Well done, Eric.

Before I ask a question on promised legislation I want, on behalf of Fianna Fáil, to thank Deputy Eric Byrne for bringing this matter to our attention.

Is there contained in criminal justice legislation promised by the Government a proposal to amend the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act, 1990 to tighten up on the control and supply of illegal firearms which have wreaked havoc throughout the country?

The programme of legislation, which includes general and criminal justice legislation, may contain provisions of that nature, but until the legislation is approved by the Cabinet it is not possible to give details of its contents.

When is it proposed to bring forward legislation to give effect to the Government's proposals for the reorganisation of the health services? Will he ensure that these changes will provide for adequate services? Is he aware of the collapse of the emergency health services in the Western Health Board region, specifically Galway, where there is chaos?

Limerick East): The Deputy did not do anything when he was a Minister.

I am glad the Progressive Democrats are interested in spending money in the health area. I assure them that all these problems will be dealt with effectively by the Minister for Health within his budget which, of course, would be much smaller if the advice of the party the Deputy represents were taken.

Deputy Molloy rose.

Has the Deputy a separate matter to raise?

Is the Taoiseach aware that patients are left overnight on trolleys in the corridors of University College Hospital, Galway on a regular basis——

That was in 1992 when the Deputy was in Government.

——and that again last night 22 patients were left on trolleys overnight?

I must ask Deputy Molloy to raise that matter at the appropriate time. There are many ways open to him. He may not make a speech now.

I am sorry, a Cheann Comhairle. There is a serious crisis in the health service. I want the Taoiseach to know what is going on.

I will facilitate the Deputy in raising this matter at the appropriate time, but not now.

People are suffering night after night. The staff are not able to deal with the accident and emergency section of University College Hospital in Galway.

The Deputy will resume his seat.

This is not fair. This is a disgrace. Will the Taoiseach not make some response?

I must ask the Deputy to leave the House forthwith.

People are suffering night after night, lying on stretchers, and the Government is doing nothing about it.

I must now proceed to name the Deputy if he does not withdraw from the House.

A Cheann Comhairle——

(Interruptions.)

The Deputy leaves me no option but to name him. I must now ask that a motion be moved suspending Deputy Molloy from the service of this House.

(Limerick East): The Deputy did nothing down there during his three years as Minister. He should apologise to the people of Galway for neglecting everything.

I will desist from naming the Deputy on condition that he remains silent.

Not on an issue of this kind, it is far too serious. This is a crisis and we are being ignored by the people who control the health services.

The motion should be moved.

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