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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 15 Feb 1996

Vol. 461 No. 6

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Licensing of Taxis and Hackneys.

Noel Ahern

Question:

4 Mr. N. Ahern asked the Minister for the Environment if he will give local authorities permission to issue rented non-transferable taxi plates confined to one driver only; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2831/96]

Ivor Callely

Question:

16 Mr. Callely asked the Minister for the Environment if he supports the view that prior to any alterations of the system of licensing taxis and hackneys or issuing additional licences that full and open consultations should take place with representatives of that industry and representatives of the public transport network; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3354/96]

Kathleen Lynch

Question:

25 Kathleen Lynch asked the Minister for the Environment the plans, if any, he has to review the conditions under which a public service vehicle licence can be granted; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3325/96]

Noel Ahern

Question:

36 Mr. N. Ahern asked the Minister for the Environment if he will amend the regulations in relation to granting taxi plates in order to allow local authorities to rent out non-transferable plates. [18637/95]

Pat Upton

Question:

81 Dr. Upton asked the Minister for the Environment when he plans to introduce legislation to update the law in relation to taxis and hackneys. [3545/96]

I propose to take Questions Nos. 4, 16, 25, 36 and 81 together.

The 1995 Public Service Vehicles Regulations brought about a fundamental re-structuring of the law applying to the licensing and operation of taxis and hackneys. I made those regulations following consideration of the report of an interdepartmental committee, examination of the response to that report from local authorities, interest groups and the general public, and discussions with representatives of the various interest groups.

The main thrust of the regulations was to devolve to individual local authorities all of the significant functions relating to the licensing of taxis and hackneys and, in particular, the power to determine the number of new taxi licences which may be granted in respect of each taximeter area. The regulations provide that before deciding to authorise the grant of new taxi licences, local authorities must engage in a public consultation process to ensure that the views of taxi interest groups and of people using taxi services are taken into account.

Under the 1995 regulations, licences at all times remain the property of the issuing authority but can be renewed every two years on an ongoing basis by the holder. Local authorities have power under the regulations to apply conditions or restrictions to the transfer of licences and can, in that context, introduce non-transferable licences if they so wish.

I have no proposals to amend the regulations at this stage. They were drafted, as I have already indicated, following a long review process, and it is now a matter for the local authorities concerned to apply them, as they consider appropriate in their areas. I intend to review the position in the light of experience of the operation of the regulations, but I do not think that it would be right to initiate any review until at least one year after the commencement of the new system.

As a member of a local authority I am pleased local authorities now have the power to determine the number of new taxi licences which may be granted in respect of each taximeter area. I am pleased also that local authorities have the power to issue non-transferable licences because to date that information could not be obtained from the Department. In relation to rented non-transferable taxi licences, does the Minister appreciate there is a danger of the taxi business falling into the hands of a private monopoly? Traditionally, certainly in Dublin, a taxi operator had one plate but a couple have 12 or 15 plates while one company has approximately 30. Local authorities in Dublin would wish to be able to rent non-transferable taxi licences in order to maintain total control rather than discover in 20 years' time that a private monopoly has a couple of hundred plates and, as such, has cornered the market. I would like to hear the Minister's comments on local authorities having the power to control rented non-transferable taxi licences.

A great deal of power has been devolved to local authorities under the new regulations. I want to see how that will be implemented. It is for local authorities to determine the number of licences. If the local authority consider that somebody has a monopoly and is not using that monopoly well, it can issue more licences and set the fees for such issue and attach any conditions it wishes to the licence. The licence will always remain the property of the local authority issuing it and is subject to review every second year. Sufficient control is available to allow a local authority to determine the type and scale of taxi service and hackney service to be operated within their area. My view is that those decisions are best made by local representatives who know the area rather than by me and officials of the Department of the Environment.

I note the regulations were drawn up following consultation with representatives of the various interest groups. It is only now when local authorities are exercising that authority and considering issuing new plates that they see the problems. The points raised in my questions have arisen in the local authority of which I am a member. What is the position about confining the licence to one driver only? While the Minister emphasises that the local authority can impose whatever conditions it wishes we are restricted in our attempt to work within the regulations. In Dublin where there are 2,000 taxis, 4,000 people earn their living from them because they are working 24 hours a day. If the licence was confined to one driver, they would come out when the business was available rather than sit around at 11 a.m. It may be that the Minister was not farseeing when considering his regulations. Please accept that these are the problems we now see and we are stuck with issuing more plates under the old regulations. While the Minister has emphasised the conditions we are hamstrung. If we have to pursue these issues I hope the Minister will give them a sympathetic hearing.

I am always anxious to learn from experience. If the experience in Dublin is that further changes in the regulations are required I will consider any such proposals. I would like a reasonable period to elapse, having made significant and far-reaching changes, shortly after I became Minister and which came into force in September 1995, before initiating any review. I would like to see how these nationwide regulations work. If local authorities in Dublin, having put the regulations as they exist into effect, discover in six or eight months' time that further changes are required I will listen to them.

Dublin City Council is under pressure because the other three councils have power to issue plates from August-September. Because of this we have to move quickly and we cannot wait a year or so. I ask the Minister to examine this matter in, say, August-September and decide if changes need to be made. We have to make fundamental changes quickly or else the other three councils will begin to issue licences and form their own taxi areas. We in Dublin City Council are under particular pressure and I ask the Minister to bear that in mind.

I am pleased there is pressure which means it is imperative to make decisions, otherwise there might be a long process of reflection before any decision is made. I will examine carefully any submission from Dublin City Council. I did reflect on the issuing of a single driver taxi plate but I was not minded to do it because there was a great deal of evidence to suggest it was not the right thing to do. If Dublin City Council makes a submission, having considered it is the right way to proceed, I will examine it afresh.

I welcome the fact that there was consultation and discussion with sectors of the industry prior to making the regulations.

The situation in Dublin is unique in that public transport brings thousands into the city at night and the service finishes before those people go home. Does the Minister support the view that Bus Átha Cliath and other elements of the public transport network should be party to such consultations? Will he give an indication of the format for such consultations?

In drafting the regulations in the first instance I heard more submissions than for any other issue. I discovered groups that my Department did not know existed.

That is the problem.

I met one group at the end of the process which represented hackneys but which at the beginning of the process represented taxis. When one gets into the process it is difficult. The regulations are good and fair and they have been broadly welcomed. I welcome them not only because they are a good way of dealing with traffic but they are also a good sampler of devolving powers. Many local authorities welcome that decisions can be made locally rather than centrally.

In terms of the requirement to discuss at local level, I expect one would obviously hear the views at subcommittee level or council level of any interested group which wants to make a submission in advance of a determination being made. The process cannot be open-ended but a reasonable opportunity must be given to those involved, including the consumer who is quite often excluded from consideration when these decisions are being made.

What about Bus Átha Cliath and DART?

It is a matter for the local authority to hear anybody it wishes.

The Minister made the point about the number of people who have to be consulted. That process is taking place on Dublin City Council at present. It is easy to become confused when meeting all the different groups. It is a good example of the devolution of power, but when the council comes back to the Minister will he give us a decision quickly? It is important to the process that whatever we decide action is taken quickly, and that will entail the Minister coming back to us promptly with his response to our suggestions.

That is a fair request.

Apropos the pressure from the consumers to issue new taxi plates on the basis that there is an inadequate service, will the Minister arrange with his Government colleagues to take account of the fact that the pressure on taxi services is at pub closing time? The customers of the public houses leave at the same time and with the road safety practices being developed in relation to drink driving, they all need taxis. Consequently inordinate pressure is put on the service. Does the Minister agree that apart from the need to reorganise the taxi and hackney services, account will have to be taken of the pressure at pub closing time which may mean a change in the licensing laws? I know it is not the Minister's responsibility but he may have a relevant input with his Government colleagues.

I do not wish to comment on the licensing laws; they are not within my ambit.

How would the Minister envisage elements of the public transport network, such as Bus Átha Cliath and DART, participating in the open consultation? Will the Minister take on board a recommendation from Dublin City Council on the issue of taxi plates?

I have given huge powers to the local authorities and they can make up their own minds in terms of issuing plates——

Not with Bus Átha Cliath.

Local authorities have the power under the regulations. There will be hard decisions to make but——

What about Bus Átha Cliath?

The Deputy has asked a question; he should be good enough to listen to the reply.

From the consultations I had I think there is a willingness to exercise the powers that exist. I expect there would be a consultation procedure. I have no intention of circumscribing the mechanisms to be used. It is a matter for the local authorities to decide to whom to talk and then to implement the regulations. If the local authorities consider an amendment to the regulations is necessary I will consider the matter.

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