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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 Apr 1996

Vol. 463 No. 7

Private Members' Business. - Irish Steel Limited Bill, 1996 [Seanad]: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

It is to be hoped that the underpinning of the future of Irish Steel will be a major boost to the Cork region and help it to rebuild its industrial base. If the company had been closed the Cork region might have been irreparably damaged and might have found it difficult to overcome the gloom. In discussing the industrial future of Cork and my area I wish all the best to Apple Computers which has been experiencing difficulties internationally. I am sure I echo the sentiments of all Members when I express my hope that the latest optimism for the company holds and that it has a bright future in Cork.

This is a very important debate as the sale of a State company is a major issue. Privatisation brings change and it means the staff no longer enjoy the security of knowing that the State and the Oireachtas are there to fight their corner. The privatisation of Irish Steel is different from other privatisations involving State companies. The State did not sell all its stake in Irish Sugar in one go as it is doing in the case of Irish Steel; rather it sold it gradually. I look forward to hearing Deputy Mulvihill's response to this point.

It was to secure the jobs.

(Interruptions.)

The Deputy in possession without interruption, please.

The privatisation of Irish Steel is taking place against the background of the commitments in the programme, A Government of Renewal, which states that State assets will not be sold except where it protects employment and is in the long-term strategic interests of the company and its stake-holders. It also states that the Government will retain majority State ownership in these companies and that change in State companies will be managed in the best interests of the employees.

The work on this legislation was initiated by the previous Fianna Fáil-Labour Government which considered how the plant could be modernised and concluded there had to be sweeping changes in work practices and there was a need for the establishment of a strategic partnership between Irish Steel and other steel finance companies. The rationalisation programme was successful, the workforce accepted major changes and Irish Steel managed to move from a position where it reduced its losses from £20.7 million in 1993-94 to £5.8 million in 1994-95. It is expected that Irish Steel will make a small profit of £1 million in the 1995-96 financial year.

The plans for a strategic alliance arose out of the rationalisation programme. Much of the detailed work on this was carried out by the Minister, Deputy Bruton, and I praise him and his officials for progressing the matter. However, I wish to ask a number of questions about the legislation. We have read and heard much about Ispat International which appears to have a strong track record and to have enjoyed good commercial success. However, no reference is made in the Bill to "ISPAT International" while the explanatory memorandum refers to "ISPAT Mexicana". It states:

This legislation is required as part of the transaction for the sale of the shares in Irish Steel Limited, held by the Minister for Finance, to ISPAT Mexicana S.A. DE C.V. The legislation provides for the repeal of the previous legislation passed by the Oireachtas on Irish Steel Limited, which will no longer apply when the company is sold to ISPAT, and to enable the Minister for Enterprise and Employment to fulfil his financial commitments to Irish Steel Limited/ISPAT Mexicana under the agreement for the sale of the shares of Irish Steel Limited.

During previous debates on Irish Steel reference was made to ISPAT International only and I would like to know why ISPAT Mexicana is being brought into the equation at this stage. Have the unions and the workforce in Irish Steel been informed that the company is ISPAT Mexicana? I am not aware that they have been made so aware. Is the company a subsidiary of the group and who are its directors? Does it share common directors with the parent company? What is its track record? Are all its tax affairs and documentation in order, its capital requirements and its borrowings? Why is Irish Steel not being handed over to ISPAT International rather than to a single company within the group? Is is not very dangerous for the Irish Steel workforce to be employed by a subsidiary rather than the main company? What is the link between Cobh and Mexicana?

A Deputy

Jobs.

In reduced numbers. How will the reporting relationships operate between ISPAT International, ISPAT Mexicana and Irish Steel? Were there negotiations with Mexicana or ISPAT International? Who has met the people from Mexicana? Has the Minister met them? Have all the photocalls not shown people from ISPAT International and not from ISPAT Mexicana?

It is unhelpful for the Minister to introduce change of this sort at such a late stage. It appears to have just been slipped into the Bill. I have yet to meet or speak with anyone who was aware that a deal was being done with a Mexican company rather than with a giant steel multinational.

During the debate in the Seanad, the Minister conceded that the steel industry is cyclical. I wish to pose some questions in this regard. In the Bill the only guarantee given by ISPAT is for five years. Why is it for such a definite period? Will it not continue beyond that, and what guarantees are there that when the five years are up ISPAT Mexicana will not disappear with the £37 million of taxpayers' money?

The Deputy must not have read the agreement.

I have. I accept Ispat's intentions are good but the detail of this deal must be queried. I understand that a penalty clause applies if Ispat decides to shed staff before the five years have expired. The Minister has declined to give any detail of this penalty clause even in response to parliamentary questions.

A newspaper report in the Sunday Independent dated 10 September stated that the penalty was just £10,000 per job. Is this accurate? Who will pick up the tab for the remainder if there are redundancies? Will it be the State? What might be the liability if the Irish Steel workforce were to fall to, say, 250?

When a strategic alliance was proposed for Irish Steel, many expected that the State might keep some stake or that at least the workforce might get a share, as happened at Aer Lingus and the ESB, and as is planned for Telecom Éireann. Why was this not explored by the Government? Is it in keeping with the spirit of social partnership to ignore the staff's contribution to the turnaround at Irish Steel? In the Seanad, the Minister said that of the companies bidding for Irish Steel all proposed 100 per cent ownership. Did the State try to negotiate with them?

Another unclear element relates to how change at Irish Steel will be monitored once the legislation is passed. Will the State have any input or will it be left to chance? What if major changes in work practices are planned? The original commitment to employment by ISPAT for 331 staff for five years has been reduced to 300. How did this drop occur and what are its implications?

I also wish to raise some questions about events last November regarding British Steel's objections. In the Seanad, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, said that the argument made by the British Government was not well founded. I too do not accept the British argument put forward at that time. The British Government was acting in bad faith in the Irish Steel talks. The fact that the deal was acceptable to 14 other EU countries shows that it was not contrary to the rules of competition. Irish Steel has a tiny share of the EU market and its production capacity could not possibly lead to the direct closure of a British plant. British Steel's output is more than 40 times that of Irish Steel. For British Steel to try to close Irish Steel was indefensible and bad competitive practice.

Irish Steel is of important and vital-national interest and should have been defended as such. However, even though the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, has admitted that the Government did not accept British Steel's objections to be well founded, the British managed to set the running and the Irish Government was very poor at defending its corner. There were great delays and reluctance to raise the matter at ministerial and prime ministerial level.

Also, considerable concessions were made to the British. As a considerable price had to be paid to ISPAT to compensate them for these restrictions, the cost of the deal went up from £27.5 million to £37.2 million, with £7 million of the increase going to Ispat as compensation for production and sales caps.

ISPAT appears to have driven a good bargain. Did the Minister consider at any stage consulting any of the other players who expressed an interest in Irish Steel? ISPAT must have known it had the Government in a corner. This is not necessarily a good way to negotiate.

I also wish to raise a question about PRSI provisions for Irish Steel workers. In the Social Welfare Bill there is a proposal that the Telecom Éireann workforce will pay the low rate of PRSI even if the company is part privatised. What is the situation at Irish Steel, and will there be any change in PRSI?

In relation to Telecom Éireann, I wonder why the new company is not being made liable for the higher PRSI rate. That will result in a loss to the State of between £35 million and £50 million a year. The workers would benefit considerably with the higher rate, and it should be obligatory on the incoming company to compensate the workers for the lack of better benefits.

A number of questions remain to be answered in respect of the Irish Steel deal. In a reply to a recent parliamentary question the Minister told me that about £2.5 million of the £37 million might be recoverable for the State. This amount related to residual costs and financial claims which arose in the past.

On January 25 last, the Minister said that the matter was under discussion between Irish Steel and ISPAT but he made no mention of this in the Seanad and painted the deal as costing a straight £37 million. Have these talks concluded, and what was the outcome?

There is also a provision in the final settlement for environmental work costing £2.36 million. Who will be carrying out these works and what do they entail? Would it not be better if the State carried out these works?

I wish all the best to Irish Steel and to ISPAT. I hope Irish Steel blossoms under its new management. I plan to continue to keep an interest in Irish Steel, coming from the constituency of East Cork, even though I am from the northern area. I hope I will have Deputy Bradford's support.

The Deputy spends quite a lot of time in his colleague's area.

Under the Constitution I have that right. I want to compliment a good friend of mine from outside the House, Mr. Pat Dineen, on the excellent work he did on the renegotiation and the corrective action taken by the company. Were it not for his efforts and his dedication we would not be talking about Irish Steel today.

I wish also to compliment Deputies Ruairí Quinn and Mary O'Rourke who were then Minister and Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment for their efforts on behalf of the company. Were it not for their initiative in spearheading this matter Irish Steel would have been lost to Cork Harbour and the greater Cork area. The Cork area suffered greatly under national coalition governments in the past, losing much of its heavy industry. Were it not for the Fianna Fáil influence Irish Steel would not have been saved.

What about the 400 jobs in Cork dockyard that the Deputy promised?

Deputy Mulvihill is new to the House. He was not here when the shutters came down on the Verolme Dockyard.

I worked there.

Many efforts were made in difficult recessionary times to rescue Cork Dockyard. I am glad the efforts of Fianna Fáil, even while out of Government, have borne fruit. We laid a foundation for reinvestment there that has been successful.

Fianna Fáil work better in Opposition; perhaps we should keep them there.

We will be tabling many amendments on Committee Stage and I have no doubt the Minister will assist us in producing a good Bill. I compliment him on introducing this legislation on the eve of our Easter vacation.

I wish to share my time with Deputies Kemmy and Bradford.

Acting Chairman

is that agreed? Agreed.

As the Deputy for East Cork and a former Irish Steel worker, I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important Bill. It marks not only an historic milestone in the history of Irish Steel but also a milestone for the people of East Cork.

In recent times the East Cork region suffered high levels of unemployment. Had Irish Steel closed, it would, I have no doubt, have signalled the final nail in the coffin for East Cork.

As the House will be well aware, Irish Steel's troubles have been ongoing for decades. In fact, the company made profits in only three of the past 20 years. In the trading year 1993-94, Irish Steel lost well over £1 million a month and total losses for the year amounted to over £20 million. Experience has shown that the State has not been the ideal partner for Irish Steel. Acceptance of this fact led to the crisis in Irish Steel in the summer of 1994. The survival plan drawn up to deal with the problems besetting the company was an absolute precondition to its very survival. It provided for a reduction of 205 workers, the introduction of flexible work practices, the achievement of efficiencies and a pay freeze.

The difficulties experienced in reaching agreement with the unions on the implementation of the plan were well documented and the industrial relations problems surrounding these negotiations brought the company to the brink of closure on a number of occasions. It is with great pleasure, therefore, that I debate this Bill today.

This survival plan was instrumental in securing a viable future for Irish Steel. I take this opportunity to acknowledge the sacrifices and efforts made by the workers of Irish Steel in its implementation. That it was difficult to accept is beyond doubt but it was a precondition to survival. The change accepted by the workers represents a transformation of the culture that prevailed in the company. The survival of the company is, to a large extent, due to the conviction and mettle of the workers involved. Another workforce of lesser conviction would have refused to accept such a watershed plan.

Credit must also be given to Mr. Pat Dineen for his vision and leadership throughout the crisis. When he became chairman of Irish Steel the future of the company was, to say the least, very bleak. However, with characteristic commitment and skill he steered the company through those troubled times and transformed it to the extent that ISPAT International agreed to purchase 100 per cent of the shares in Irish Steel and thus ensure its future. The management must also be commended for its commitment to securing a viable future for the company.

During the summer of 1994 it seemed Irish Steel was about to close and many people took great pleasure in saying "I told you so". However, thanks to the efforts of the Tánaiste, Deputy Dick Spring, and the then Minister for Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Quinn, the negotiations proved fruitful.

Not surprisingly the Progressive Democrats called for the closure of Irish Steel as the only sensible solution. This, however, was more a reflection of their short-sightedness than a realistic assessment of the situation at the time. Left to the Progresive Democrats we would not have any semi-State companies.

I pay tribute to Deputy Quill who took a very sensible stand during the crisis. She contacted everybody and was very concerned for the workers although her party was opposed to supporting Irish Steel and wanted to close it down.

This debate, however, proves what can be achieved when there is commitment. I did not doubt that Irish Steel could survive. What was in doubt was whether those directly involved would receive the support needed to ensure survival. They received this from the Labour Party.

Those dark clouds which for so long hung over Haulbowline have thankfully become a thing of the past and the problems which seemed to be the defining characteristic of Irish Steel have been resolved once and for all. Irish Steel today is an example to all Irish industry of how change, no matter how painful, can be managed.

The cultural change witnessed in Irish Steel is almost unbelievable. Its shortcomings have been well documented by its critics. However, the majority of its detractors are from outside the East Cork region and are unable to appreciate just what the closure of the company would have meant for the region.

Not only is it a traditional employer in the region but it is one of the main sources of revenue for many support industries. At the time of the crisis confidence was already at a low ebb in the region. However, the closure of Irish Steel could have been the final death blow to a region already suffering more than most. It was in these harrowing circumstances we in the Labour Party committed ourselves to ensuring that Irish Steel survived. The success of the change made is reflected in that Irish Steel is now on course to break-even this year and the new owners have already taken on more workers.

Today, Irish Steel is an example to Irish industry of what can be achieved by adopting a consensus approach to the management of change. Change is not an easy pill to swallow at the best of times and the terms of the survival plan put to the workers made that pill all the harder to swallow.

The workers and management alike had to deal with complete change of company culture and structure. The problems which beset the company were mainly grounded in the low trust level between management and the workforce. However, the transformation from a company based on outmoded perceptions of "good industrial relations" to a world class manufacturing organisation is a vindication of our faith in the workers and management of Irish Steel in those dark days of 1994.

I congratulate the trade unions involved on the contribution they made to the success story that is Irish Steel today. It took a great deal of courage to embrace work practices which not so long ago were considered to be outside the remit of "good industrial relations". However, in doing so the unions representing the workers of Irish Steel signalled a new departure in industrial relations and helped the trade union movement in general to face the challenge facing them as we enter the 21st century.

With regard to the readaptation fund, money is still due to those workers who were made redundant as a result of the implementation of the survival plan. This needs to be addressed as soon as possible and I call on the Minister to ensure that it is.

I also call on the Minister to publish the report of the Cobh and Harbour Task Force which was set by the then Minister for Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Ruairí Quinn at the time of the crisis in Irish Steel. East Cork remains a region of high unemployment and this task force report would help in formulating a strategy to address this problem.

This short Bill is of huge importance to Cobh, East Cork, Irish Steel and the steel industry in Ireland. As Deputy Mulvihill said, the Bill will herald a new beginning for Irish Steel and for the East Cork area. The steel industry in Cork is small by international standards but it is hugely important in the Cork area and in the wider Irish context. It is one of the very major employers in the Cork region.

People were concerned about Irish Steel down through the years particularly during 1993-94 when the future of the industry appeared to be at risk. Many people must get credit for bringing through those parlous days. I hope this Bill will underpin the future of the steel industry in Ireland. Various Ministers played a leading role. The then Minister, Deputy Quinn, and the present Minister, Deputy Richard Bruton, committed themselves wholeheartedly to securing the future of industry.

The workers in the firm, many of whom had to take the redundancy option, can at least be satisfied that their sacrifice resulted in the securing of the long-term future of the industry. The management, especially the chairman, Mr. Pat Dineen, also played a major role in turning what had been an ailing industry into one that can thrive in the years ahead. All these people must be congratulated for acting in a mature and courageous manner over the years when many saw closure as the only option.

I welcome the fact that a buyer such a ISPAT International has been found for Irish Steel. The industry could only be secured by the take-over by such a significant player. We are fortunate to be dealing with one of the major steel companies in the world. It will not only stabilise the situation in Cobh but will help the firm to expand. This is important because if jobs are to be maintained and if the company is to be developed it cannot be a question of standing still but of further investment, new initiatives, new markets and so on. I am confident that the investment by ISPAT International will ensure that the steel industry in Cobh and in Ireland goes from strength to strength.

I support Deputy Mulvihill's comments on the need to publish the task force report. Irish Steel is of major importance to Cork and to Cobh. However, one industry cannot keep a town, a region or a province alive. In conjunction with the development and expansion of the steel industry, there is a need for more infrastructure and development in the area to generate employment in east Cork. I look forward to the early publication of the task force report and an early debate so that we can look at the different problems facing people in the area and consider how best to solve them.

I also welcome the recent decision by Eastman Kodak to invest in a factory in the Youghal area. This is a significant development for the east Cork region. I hope the Minister will be in a position to make more announcements regarding it over the next few months. It will be important to build up a wide economic and industrial infrastructure in the region if we are to tackle its unemployment problem. I commend the Minister for his efforts to date.

A significant programme of job creation was recently announced for the dockyard, which may lead to approximately 120 new jobs for Cobh. It is far short of what was promised by Deputy Reynolds when, allowing for the sale of the dockyard some years ago, he declared that at least 400 jobs would be created. Regrettably his promises did not come to pass. I hope that in today's more stable economic and political atmosphere more jobs and industries will be attracted to the Cobh area.

The Bill has already been passed by the Seanad. I hope it will become law in the near future. We will then be able to proceed with the fomalities and ISPAT International will become a major industrial player in Cork. The workers of Cobh have endured some dark days. I hope a new dawn approaches.

Deputy Ned O'Keeffe characteristically ranged far and wide in his contribution. He provided a historical gallop through the role of his party in terms of industrial development, mentioning the ESB, An Post, Telecom Éireann, the Irish Sugar Company, Bord na Móna and other flagship companies which his party was partly responsible for creating.

The Deputy raised some questions to which he is entitled to answers. I also have some questions on this issue. Deputy O'Keeffe muddied the water by his begrudging attitude. It appeared he was sorry it was not his party that was introducing this Bill.

The Deputy did not offer an alternative approach. I would be happy if somebody from the Fianna Fáil Party were to offer one. There is no point in cursing the darkness, as the Deputy did, if one cannot produce a light. I support the Bill because there is no alternative to it.

All the companies cited by Deputy Ned O'Keeffe were good in their day. They were all built up behind tariff walls. However, the world has changed and we must survive. The ideology of Sinn Féin —"ourselves alone"— was good at the time of independence, but it would not serve us well in the world today. Sinn Féin would make a bad breakfast of this ideology now. Politics must be relevant to the world as it is. Good intentions will not save companies, nor will they ensure their survival to compete internationally and guarantee jobs for their workers.

Ideology, whether it be in respect of Sisn Féin, nationalims or socialism, must serve people, not the other way around. Deputy Ned O'Keefe's listing of companies as a kind of mantra will not save the jobs in them.

There is a battle for survival here. We are lucky we have got a partner as good as ISPAT International to take over this company. A fly-by-night or flash in the pan company could not have been allowed to become involved, rather a company with a good track record in competence——

What about the 200 workers made redundant?

If I had time, I would deal with all the points raised by the Deputy. In some instances I would have agreed with and expanded on what he said, but in other instances I will put forward alternative proposals. I did not heckle the Deputy; he is taking up my time with his intervention.

He knows about intervention.

He knows more about intervention than he does about beef. I know a little more about the area under the debate than the Deputy, but I am modest about what I do and do not know. The Minister will doubtless deal with the questions raised by the Deputy. However, he has raised doubts which are not genuine and stirred up the waters.

I visited London last Christmas with Deputies Mulvihill, Bradford and Leonard to speak with the relevant Minister, Mr. Eggar, in the House of Commons and with members of the Labour Party and the Tory Party.

The Deputy means members of the Conservative Party.

That is correct. Our deliberations resulted in a change of heart on the part of both Labour Party and Conservative Party members. We put our point of view that we were a small player in a big field. It had not been mentioned that ours is a small steel industry.

There are no guarantees. Unless the company is viable it will not survive, regardless of its name. The reality was the Government had one option — to negotiate the best possible agreement for our people which would ensure the survival of the plant and maintain as many jobs as possible, and also to ensure we had a steel industry in Ireland. The company was taken over by the Government almost 50 years ago so that we would have our own steel making plant. It was very laudable and commendable but that is not good enough unless the company can survive the harsh economic realities.

The Deputy spoke as if he were living in a world where reality does not matter and the issue was a simple black and white one. It was a very complex situation and we are lucky we had the capacity and flexibility to do a deal, which has my best wishes. I hope I will have a chance to reply to some of the points raised by the Deputy later.

Since I was elected to this House in February 1982 I have participated in innumerable discussions on Irish Steel. It was a crisis on each occasion. Each Government since 1982 has worked to ensure that Irish Steel stayed in existence. The position became effectively untenable in recent years and the whole question of its future came to the wire. As we are all aware, something had to happen.

When Deputy Reynolds was Minister for Industry and Commerce he saw that Irish Steel did not have a future as a semi-State body and he pursued strategic alliances with different companies around the world. If he had continued in that post he would have negotiated a strategic alliance. However, he became Minister for Finance and Deputy O'Malley took over as Minister for Industry and Commerce and scuttled everything. As time went on, the losses increased. When Deputy Quinn became Minister for Employment and Enterprise he had to face the problem. A viability plan was drawn up in 1994, which was met with trepidation by the workforce in Irish Steel because they felt it was not possible to reduce the workforce and continue in existence.

During the crisis which followed in September 1994, it looked as if Irish Steel was going to be closed down. I remember there was a meeting of the three unions involved and the question of whether they were going to vote for the plan rested on the payment of redundancies. The clear message from the Minister for Employment and Enterprise, Deputy Quinn, and the Tánaiste, Deputy Spring, was that redundancy payments would not be paid forthwith. The word I got back from speaking to all the workers there was that if that was how it was going to be they were going to vote against the viability plan.

The Deputy must have come in the dark of night because they were complaining he was very scarce at the time. Deputy O'Keeffe spent more time there than the Deputy did.

However, I met with the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Bertie Ahern, who assured me, as the shareholder in Irish Steel, that the redundancy payments would be made immediately. That message went back to the workers and the plan was passed.

They could save Cobh but they could not save Dublin West.

If Deputy Quinn had been Minister for Finance at that time Irish Steel would have been closed down lock, stock and barrel. It is lucky that did not happen because of the vital importance of Irish Steel to the Cobh region and the east Cork area in general. It is not only the 300 people working directly in the factory who are affected but also the 1,000 people supplying materials and services to Irish Steel. It is vitally important for it to be kept in existence.

I thank the unions for their very responsible approach to the problem. The workers showed a very responsible attitude as they realised they would have to make great sacrifices. Some of them had to take redundancy and many others had to accept a complete change in their work practices and a reduction in wages. They accepted all those changes in order to ensure Irish Steel would continue in existence. All the political parties in the Cork area also approached the problem very responsibly. It was of great importance to the company to see such political cohesion in regard to the industry.

Deputy Bradford made a slightly petty point in relation to Deputy Reynold's announcement about the Verolme Cork dockyard. That must be put in context. There was a completely different scenario at that stage in European history as the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain were still in existence. Not long after Deputy Reynold's announcement, the Berlin Wall came down. Shipyards throughout western Europe were devastated.

The Deputy's party sold if off for £1 million to a speculator.

In Denmark they had a thriving ship repair and building industry which went to the wall.

Kathleen Lynch would know all about the Berlin Wall.

Is Deputy Michael Ahern suggesting there was a connection between Deputy Reynold's speech and the wall coming down?

In every ship building and repair area throughout Britain and the rest of western Europe, the industry went to the wall. That is the context of what happened in the dockyard. It is time for an end to such petty throwaway statements about the 400 jobs — which were never promised, anyhow.

It is there in black and white.

That is the fact of the situation. Deputy Mulvihill can ask the workers in Irish Steel what would have happened if the then Minister, Deputy Bertie Ahern, had not sanctioned the redundancy payments.

I can talk to the workers in Irish Steel any time but the Deputy cannot.

I was there on the Saturday and Sunday when the voting took place. No other TD was present. They got the message, which they acknowledged.

Who delivered it?

I delivered it.

From Washington.

There was a meeting in Cobh last night about the non-payment of the readaptation aid. Moneys have been passed by the European Union for the readaptation of the workforce which was made redundant a number of years ago. We are waiting for the Government to provide the matching funds. We were told some time ago it would take a week or two. We were told recently it could take two or three months. Why is the Government not making available the pitiful amount of money needed to pay those people who have been redundant for a number of years? The Government is being very remiss in this regard but I know the Minister will look at it seriously and get it paid as quickly as possible.

Deputy O'Keeffe

Who will he tell first?

We are waiting for the task force report. Of course, nobody from Cobh was on the task force.

(Interruptions.)

On a point of order——

Acting Chairman

I ask Deputy Michael Ahern to move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
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