Bertie Ahern
Question:7 Mr. B. Ahern asked the Taoiseach the total staff numbers employed in the office of each of the Ministers of State in his Department; and the total annual cost of each Minister of State and his staff. [7216/96]
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Ministerial Staff.
The total number and salary cost of each Minister of State and the staff employed in the offices of the Ministers of State attached to my Department is contained in the Schedule which I am circulating with this reply.
Foreign and home travel costs relating to Ministers of State at my Department in 1995 were as follows: Minister of State Mitchell and staff, £37,307; Minister of State Carey and staff, £30,712.
The Department did not incur any costs in 1995 in relation to travel of Ministers of State Higgins and Doyle.
In addition a-non-recurrent amount of £13,458 was spent by the Department in 1995 on office equipment and furniture for the offices of the Ministers of State. The operating costs for mobile phones allocated to the Ministers of State and their staff was £7,300 in 1995.
Indirect costs such as overhead costs also arise in respect of offices of the Ministers of State. Such costs however do not give rise to any substantial increase in expenditure as the overhead costs will still apply whether the offices are used by Ministers or officials. Overhead costs include items such as heat, light and office maintenance.
SCHEDULE
Total number and salary cost of each Minister of State, civilian drivers and the staff employed in the offices of the Ministers of State attached to the Department of the Taoiseach, 3 April 1996.
|
Salary |
|
|
£ |
|
|
Minister of State Mitchell |
57,132(includes an expenses allowance) |
|
Private and constituency office (12) |
|
|
Private Secretary |
25,054 |
|
1 EO |
15,289 |
|
2 SOs |
30,519 |
|
2 CAs |
19,792 |
|
Special Adviser |
25,500 |
|
Personal Assistant |
27,030 |
|
Personal Secretary |
16,524 |
|
Part-Time Researcher¹ |
|
|
2 Civilian Drivers |
26,370 |
¹Engaged on consultancy basis at the rate of £94 per diem.
|
Salary |
|
|
£ |
|
|
Minister of State Carey |
57,132(includes an expenses allowance) |
|
Private and constituency office (8) |
|
|
Private Secretary |
26,181 |
|
1 CO |
14,640 |
|
1 CA |
10,514 |
|
Special Adviser |
33,185 |
|
Personal Assistant (EO) |
19,144 |
|
Personal Secretary |
15,049 |
|
2 Civilian Drivers |
26,370 |
|
Salary |
|
|
£ |
|
|
Minister of State Higgins |
57,132(includes an expenses allowance) |
|
Private and constituency office (9) |
|
|
Private Secretary |
26,181 |
|
1 SO |
17,638 |
|
1 CO |
14,640 |
|
3 CAs |
30,248 |
|
Special Adviser |
43,752 |
|
Personal Assistant |
18,772 |
|
Personal Secretary |
11,220 |
|
Salary |
|
|
£ |
|
|
Minister of State Doyle |
57,132(includes an expenses allowance) |
This Minister of State does not have a private or constituency office based in my Department.
Will the Taoiseach agree that with the extra Minister of State and the extra advisers and programme managers the whole State apparatus is top heavy with all these political appointments? Has the Taoiseach any plans to reduce or streamline it because it is seen as a totally cynical exercise regardless of whether he accepts it?
No, I do not agree with the Deputy. If one looks historically over the past 30 year period at the rate of growth in other categories of State employment and the rate of growth in the political category one will find that the rate of growth in almost every other category of State employment has been faster and more considerable than the rate of growth in the political category of employment. I further take the view that if there is to be accountability — and this is a matter to which Deputies refer frequently here — there must be people in the political area, either Ministers, Ministers of State or programme managers, who are in a position to ask the appropriate questions and to prepare the appropriate answers for Ministers to the House.
The level of political input to Government is about right at this time. I would not favour any increase in the present level of employment of Ministers' advisers or programme managers. It is not unusual when one looks at administrations on the continent. The Cabinet system which we have here has operated well in those countries for years. As one who was a critic of the programme manager system when it was first introduced I have found it works extremely well in ensuring that papers are well prepared for Government, that matters of dispute or argument between Ministers are, to the maximum degree possible, settled before it goes to Cabinet and that the Cabinet discussions are not taken up with arguments about facts. The facts have been settled beforehand by appropriate advisers or programme managers and the Cabinet is able to concentrate efficiently on taking the relevant political decisions promptly. The system of programme managers and special advisers, which existed under the previous administration and which I criticised at the time, has proved to be a very good one. I would not favour any further increase in the employment of them.
So far as the Ministers of State are concerned, Minister of State, Deputy Carey, is a good example of somebody who is doing a very relevant job. He would not be doing it had we not increased the number of Ministers of State to allow him to be appointed. His role as Minister of State with responsibility for western development, the Border areas and offshore islands has delivered specific measurable improvements since his appointment. That is something the House might reflect on as indicating the value of the much criticised decision to appoint two extra Ministers of State.
I echo the Taoiseach's praise for the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, in one respect at least. Of the three Ministers of State at the Department of the Taoiseach he runs the neatest ship and has the smallest expenditure. On the size of delegations that go abroad with Ministers of State from the Taoiseach's office, a huge number of people travel on these occasions. Is this a practical implementation of the principle the Taoiseach has just enunciated of maximum delegation?
We are going beyond the bounds of this question, which is a statistical one.
It is very interesting.
Generally speaking the delegations going with Ministers of State are small. To my knowledge there are not any particularly large delegations going abroad with Ministers of State but there may be some examples of it. It is desirable to reduce the size of official delegations going abroad. There is a tendency to require internal representation, in terms of various Departments all having to be on a delegation, when in fact the information could be more readily pooled and a relatively smaller group could do the job. It is necessary for someone in my position to keep an eye on this matter. Sometimes delegations will be over-large due to lack of vigilance but I would like to ensure that delegations are as small as efficiently prudent.
The time is all but exhausted. I suggest the two Deputies offering put their questions and the Taoiseach may answer both simultaneously, if that is satisfactory.
The Taoiseach referred to probably his most loyal colleague in glowing terms on the excellent work he is doing and would like to see that loyalty reciprocated. Will the Taoiseach confirm that having set out the importance of the job being done by the Minister of State that were he to be appointed as the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, maybe there would have been no need for that job in the first place?
May I ask the Taoiseach specifically about the cost of telephone calls from the Ministers of State and their staff for which the exorbitant sum of about £7,000 was allocated? I understand Deputies are only allowed about £2,000 for phone calls. Has the Taoiseach any plans for the designation of the whole country as a local area? This would be helpful to people in the offshore islands and in the west for whom the cost of trunk calls is exorbitant. It would be helpful to the Minister of State if the country could be so designated.
The figure I gave for calls was for mobile phones for all Ministers of State, not for individuals, as there are four of them. The other question is a separate matter.
That concludes questions to the Taoiseach for today.