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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 24 Apr 1996

Vol. 464 No. 4

Report of Task Force on Travelling Community: Statements (Resumed).

Regarding the earlier interruption, it is not right that two Ministers should leave the Government side of the House vacant. Out of respect for the House and the Chair it is important to make that point.

It is the Deputy's prerogative to call for a quorum.

This is an important, comprehensive and far-reaching report on the travelling community which will be valuable in the future. As the report was published nine nonths ago I would have thought that a comprehensive action plan would be in place by now and that each Minister could tell the House what they intend to do. The report received a warm welcome here and we hope the Government will take action on it.

On the conflicts that can arise between the settled and the travelling communities, it is a sad fact that most of us have prejudices of one sort or another. These are often based on a lack of information, misunderstandings or simple ignorance, but we must try to overcome them. This can be done my meeting people and trying to solve the problems together. The support groups for travellers, which are doing excellent work, are tackling this problem on an area basis. The excellent work of the support groups in Tallaght, Clondalkin and Finglas is leading to a greater understanding and development. I suggest the introduction of community based encounter groups, an approach that could be helpful in solving problems, breaking down prejudices and reaching agreement. The travellers and the settled community must work together to resolve difficulties such as when problems arise with local hoteliers, restaurant owners or publicans. The encounter groups are helpful and I have seen this process in operation on the northside of the city.

Fianna Fáil is vehemently opposed to discrimination against any individual or group, including women, people with disabilities and members of the travelling community. Much of the work done over the years for the travelling community was carried out by Fianna Fáil. We are and have long been committed to reconciling the common good of the community as a whole, with respect for minorities and for creating a tolerant and pluralist society free from discrimination, hatred or incitement on religious or racial grounds.

We support the introduction of an equal status Bill and believe the difficulties the Minister has encountered can be overcome. We urge him to bring forward this Bill before the summer. Although such legislation would not of itself put an end to the discrimination faced by the traveller community, it will make an important contribution.

The basic principle which must underlie the equal status legislation is that in general people should be judged on their merits as individuals. We are in agreement with the Minister on this but I ask him to bring forward the equal status Bill. Fianna Fáil will support him in working out its details.

There are three important Bills pending in this area and the Minister referred to two of them. I am referring to the employment equality Bill, which will be introduced before the summer; the equal status Bill, which the Minister promises before the end of the year — we would like to see it sooner — and the Control and Regulation of Horses Bill which is particularly relevant and to which different approaches will have to be adopted. This needs urgent attention. A great deal has been done over the years and the way forward is clear. The task force has pointed the way and I would like the Government to get on with the job.

Like many Deputies who have contributed to this debate, I would like to thank those involved in preparing this report. In particular, I congratulate the Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Taylor, who commissioned the report, the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy McManus, who initially chaired the task force, and Senator Mary Kelly, who took over from Deputy McManus.

In light of recent comments by a Fianna Fáil councillor in Waterford, I was pleased to note the contributions to the debate last night by Deputies Flood and Martin, both of which were reasonable and restrained. If fault were to be found it is that Fianna Fáil does not recognise the inconsistency in requesting action and spending in debates such as this and then complaining about the level of public spending when the nation's finances are being discussed. Like Deputy Martin, who voiced some criticisms, I will not labour that point.

Both the Minister and Deputy Connaughton pointed out last night that this is not the first report on the travelling community and that much of its contents are not new. It is rather the latest report and, as such, is the most valuable. It is also distinctive in that it has been already followed up with clear proposals, the most significant of which has been in regard to accommodation.

As a member of Dublin City Council, representing an area which has a boundary with County Dublin, I am aware of the accommodation problem for travellers. My Dáil constituency of Dublin North East has two traveller housing schemes, one at Caragh Park, Coolock, where there are 22 units, and the second at Grove Lane, which has more than 20 bays, and where extensive refurbishment works, funded by the Department of the Environment, were recently completed. These facilities were developed and serviced by Dublin Corporation, which is the local authority. Relations are reasonably good between the settled and travelling communities. Over 10 per cent of the children attending the Priorswood primary schools are traveller children.

Additional resources were given to this school last year by the Minister for Education. Meetings between local residents and travellers frequently take place, convened by officials of Dublin Corporation's traveller section, to deal with local issues and resolve difficulties.

The task force identifies illegal sites as a source of difficulty. There are two illegal sites in the Belcamp Lane area. The one known locally as Ward's Field has been in existence for a number of years and proposals for housing families there are currently under consideration. The other illegal site is situated on land acquired by Fingal County Council for the construction of the final phase of the northern cross motorway route. The families on this site were moved there by Fingal County Council last year from the former Baldoyle racecourse. Fingal County Council provided the families there with a water supply in the form of a water tap but no other facilities were provided.

Fingal County Council did not consult Dublin City Council or the corporation management when this decision was made. As a member of Dublin City Council I strongly object to this cavalier action by Fingal County Council in setting up an illegal site in the Dublin city area. Fingal County Council claimed afterwards that some of the traveller families concerned had lived in the Dublin city area. If this were true it could be said it had carried out "ethnic cleansing" in this case. Fingal County Council has a bad record of providing traveller settlement facilities in its administrative area, as had Dublin City Council when it was the local authority for the present Fingal area. Fingal had proposed a number of settlement sites in its area but following objections dropped them. Its policy is one of paralysis. This incident points to the need for action at national level.

In today's issue of The Irish Times I note a report of a case at Skibbereen Court where the owner of a company called Shift and Lift was appealing against the severity of a jail sentence imposed on him when engaged in moving travellers in Bantry in 1994. The owner of Shift and Lift told the court that Dublin County Council had used his company on a regular basis for what he described as “to shift travellers”. I call on the Minister to obtain further information on the record of the company called Shift and Lift in dealing with the travelling community.

I wish to refer to the problem of stray horses, some of whom, but by no means all, belong to the travelling community. The damage caused by stray horses is also a source of friction between sports clubs and the travelling community when horses damage football pitches. In my constituency many pitches and public parks are unusable because of the damage caused by horses. There have also been cases where children have been injured by horses. We are patiently awaiting the Control of Horses Bill to deal with this problem.

As a result of the working group established on receipt of the report by the Minister, it has been decided to adopt a five year strategy for traveller accommodation. This will lead to the building of 3,100 units by the end of the century. As currently estimated there are fewer than 1,500 travelling families either on the roadside or in halting sites. This is a substantial programme of work. In the past such programmes were difficult to deliver on. Consequently, I welcome the establishment of a working group in the Department of the Environment to monitor the implementation of the programme and the fact that there will be a responsibility on all local authorities to develop plans in accordance with the national strategy. In the past, some councils pulled their weight on this issue while others did not.

Unless we can secure a coherent approach at national level, the plan is doomed to failure. It is appropriate that local managers in their respective counties have executive responsibility for delivering on the plan but I issue a word of warning to the Minister for the Environment that that in itself is not sufficient without appropriate pressure from his Department.

As the Minister pointed out, there is a responsibility on travellers to promote their own cause. While they are unquestionably subjected to discrimination at the hands of the settled community, in some cases travellers act as their own best adversaries. Many people seem only too pleased to tar all travellers with the actions of a few. The report's finding in relation to traveller health and education presents a sorry picture. As the Minister highlighted, infant and adult mortality rates for travellers are over twice that for the settled community, their participation rate in second and third level education is abysmal and they suffer from extremely high levels of unemployment. While it is understandable that the report should deal with all these elements separately, it is clear they are all linked. In many cases the health and education standards achieved by a travelling person are directly related to their environment. This confirms that the solution of the accommodation problem is the key to determining whether this task force report will make a greater impact than many of its predecessors. If and when we make the breakthrough on traveller accommodation difficulties, I am confident that the rest of the issues will fall into place. This is not to neglect or underestimate the measures already in place, many of which the Minister has outlined, in the fields of health and education. They include the establishment of a travellers' health advisory committee, which will include representatives from the travelling community, the consideration of a policy document on travellers' health and on traveller women's health especially.

The White Paper on Education deals significantly with the problem facing travellers and states the goal that 50 per cent of travellers within a decade should complete the senior education cycle. If we are determined, through this report, to break the link between travellers and poverty, we must succeed.

I support a suggestion, made during the debate last night, that a certain number of places should be reserved in universities for travellers. Without measures for positive discrimination being initiated it is impossible to break the logjam.

The report also deals with traveller culture. We all recognise that travellers have a distinctive culture going back centuries. Nonetheless, culture per se cannot and should not be used to define some brutal and unfair practices. The treatment meted out to some traveller women is unacceptable, as is the practice by some families of sending children out to earn a living by begging on the street. Culture by definition is an evolving phenomenon, it does not and cannot excuse such practices.

The publication of the report presents an opportunity to address this issue in a comprehensive manner. For too long the plight of the travelling community has been a black spot in the renaissance of modern Irish culture. As our economy grows and our self confidence as a society increases, as a result of our participation in Europe, it is a chance we cannot afford to miss.

In the past, we have shown ourselves to be adept in categorising and pigeonholing vulnerable minorities. Categorising made life easier for us but it does not bring much joy to the people who inhabit that category. When you categorise you do not see people as individuals with hopes and dreams. The danger is that small, visible minorities have tended to be viewed as problems to be solved only on our terms. There is a tendency to see minorities as we see ourselves in a "why do they not live in houses like the rest of us" attitude. Travellers have problems and frequently they impact adversely on the settled community. We must plan with the travelling people rather than for them. We must develop an understanding of their diversity and distinctive culture. I compliment RTE which, a few years ago, on a radio programme "on the Tobar" gave travellers a platform to express their own cultural identity and promote a wider understanding of their distinctive traditions among the wider community.

To build a fully integrated, inclusive society we must try to come to terms with this nagging stubborn issue which has been with us for far too long. It is now over 30 years since we had the first major report on travellers which was followed by a number of interim reports, culminating in the one we are discussing today. As bad as the position is now, it was truly appalling at that time. Only 56 out of 1,198 families were in proper accommodation. We have come a long way since then. I do not have the exact statistics but I am sure in the region of 3,000 are housed with significant numbers either in single private housing accommodation, in group housing or in service sites throughout the country. Clearly, we must continue to ensure we remove that blot which is still here in terms of our failure to complete that task.

As a generous people with a unique tradition in our support for and involvement in problems abroad as far as Ethiopia and Bosnia and so many other places — many volunteers are prepared to give their time generously to help people of different denominations, some nomadic and others suffering from hunger and deprivation — it is strange that this problem in Ireland does not attract anything like the same attention. We can be outraged by a comment made about the travelling community and we can read press editorials, to which I have no objection, but I am certain that the outrage does not extend to the stage where the people involved would tolerate itinerant families on halting sites close to their homes. The outrage extends to dealing with the problem at a distance, it does not want to get involved in solving it close up, "not in my back yard".

Time and time again local communities refuse to look after this minority group. They show their resistance by the use of dangerous dogs or good security systems and as long as they do so these injustices will remain. Members of the travelling community regularly attend my clinics, particularly when their children are about to receive First Communion or they are celebrating other family occasions. Traveller children have a different life expectancy from children in the settled community. It is almost certain they will be unemployed. Females are likely to get married at a young age and have more children than they can afford. They have a greater tendency to get asthma because of the unhygienic and dangerous caravans in which they live during the cold winter months. However, although those statistics relate to a community that suffers great deprivation and represents a tiny percentage of our population, there is enormous furore when we try to deal with the horrific problems they face of unemployment, lack of education, housing and poor health standards.

In recent years successive Ministers for the Environment have provided local authorities with increased funds to enable them grapple with these problems but their efforts are often blocked at local level. Some local authorities acquired land and provided the necessary facilities but they attracted travellers from other areas where such facilities were not provided. If a uniform policy were adopted each local authority could solve the problem in its area. At present some settled communities are justified in asking why they should have a preponderance of travellers in their area while others do not face up to their responsibilities.

As regards education and training, we must bear in mind that we are dealing with a minority group who have a different culture. We must provide greatly enhanced resources, including remedial and other facilities, at primary school level to cater for travellers coming into the educational stream.

I have a lifelong interest in the problems of the mentally and physically handicapped. While much remains to be be done, I can proudly claim that Roscrea has some of the best facilities in the country for such people. Large numbers of children with poor listening ability, poor hearing skills and others who are unable to conform to present day standards lose out in primary school. That is evident from prison statistics which show that 90 per cent of prisoners left school before reaching 16 years of age. That is not to say it is wrong to leave school before that age but early intervention would have succeeded in preventing many of them from being involved in crime, drugs and so on.

There is great opposition to the travelling community, not least because of the involvement of some of them in crime. While that may be justified in some cases, there is no basis for it in justice nor will it solve the problems. They will continue and we will live with the prospect of a divided community.

Given our track record in endeavouring to solve problems that arise abroad, I cannot understand why public representatives are afraid of losing their Dáil or council seats if they do not back the general public in resisting the travelling community. I do not believe they would lose their seats if they tackled the injustice perpetrated on this community but if they did it would not be a condemnation of their work. The public understand frank and vigorous leadership. The facts will not disappear merely because they are ignored. As a society we are driven to excell in the areas of business, commerce and sport and it defies logic that we cannot solve a problem for a tiny deprived minority in society. We do not know what it is like to live with the realities faced by the travelling community.

Travellers are blamed when they do what nearly every species does when it is hunted. We have to ask ourselves seriously whether we have the courage to tackle this problem, or must we admit there is latent racism here? It would be very sad if it were true.

The value of property can decline overnight as a result of decisions taken at international level which have nothing to do with the traveller community. It can happen as a result of a rise in interest rates. However, if there is any threat on this front, we do not want to know about it. I support the Minister's attempts, and I would like to see the legislation introduced so that we can debate it.

There should be an end to reports, task forces and committees. There is nobody who has been elected to this House or who has held ministerial office who does not know how crucial is the education of the traveller community, along with improving their health, employment and other prospects, the provision of sites by the local authority and all the things that go towards providing shelter and other normal requirements.

People elected to this House and to local authorities should realise that public meetings and a public threatening the resolution of this problem will extend into the future, and the same problem will face successive public representatives. The stubborn problem remains, and we shrink from it. I would encourage local authorities to come up with reasonable plans, to do their best at local level and not be discouraged if nearby local authorities do not tackle the problem.

For those of the nomadic tradition who will not become involved in education as we know it, we must consider other ways of intervening and encouraging them to get training, and the opportunity to do traditional work. We need to plan with the traveller community. In doing that we can encourage them away from the more unacceptable practices in terms of the management of their own sites, hygiene, litter etc. Regarding keeping horses in built-up areas, the realities must be brought home to the traveller community as well as to the rest of us.

My intervention is primarily one of support for and understanding of the problems that exist and of resolve to support the Government and the local authorities in their drive towards a resolution of this stubborn problem. I encourage public representatives at local and national level to inform the public. We have generally generous communities who want to help, and they should be encouraged to do so. There should be a broader understanding of what it is that we enjoy that is not available to the people we are trying to help. We should try to sell that message more generally. There is a latent sympathy which we need to awaken in everybody outside the traveller community in our efforts to deal with this problem. We must do it with courage and determination and we should not again be faced, a few years from now, with another report telling us about education, health, life expectancy, unemployment, crime and all the other things that we know about and that we knew about long before now.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Boylan.

This is the most serious problem facing the people and it will not go away. I listened to Deputy Smith with great interest. He is right in saying this is not the best item to have on the agenda for a county council meeting. I am a member of the Westport Urban Council and of Mayo County Council and we have a major problem with the traveller community. We have one halting site in Castlebar the manager of which, Des Mahon, has done a survey in relation to travellers. He says this problem will not go away and that by the year 2000 it will have tripled. It is a problem that will have to be faced by local authorities and the people.

We tried to locate a halting site in Westport on three occasions. We failed because of resistance to it. I know a certain person in the town who goes to mass every morning and every evening, but when it was proposed to locate a halting site 300 yards from her door she was one of the 300 people that stood outside the Westport Urban Council offices waving her banner objecting to a halting site in that area.

The assistant county manager, the county councillors and most of the people in my town who do very good work for the traveller community say we must do something about this very serious problem and that we have to find a halting site. That is the difficulty. Where can one locate a halting site that people will accept? Last Monday morning, like every public representative elected to this House, I had three or four travellers visit my clinic. Not a week passes that I do not have travellers at my clinic. I treat them like everybody else and assist them as best I can. Last week I asked a friend of mine to go to court in a month's time in connection with a court order from the local council to shift a young traveller off property owned by the council. The traveller told me he will go if the council will provide somewhere for him to put his caravan. I understand the case is going not to the local court but to the Circuit Court where, to be represented, he needs to employ a barrister. A certain solicitor represented him in regard to criminal offences for which he got free legal aid. The solicitor will not be able to defend him this time because he needs a barrister, but to get a barrister for 20 minutes work is costly, and there is no guarantee that he will win his case.

The Minister and the Government established committees in which they endeavoured to involve the traveller community. Nonetheless I cannot accept that the traveller community must have total say, that the traveller tradition must live on, allowing them do whatever they wish. I will defend my views inside or outside this House. The traveller community must give a bit as must the settled community.

The local authority in Westport has a wonderful record on housing travellers throughout County Mayo. It is not acceptable that when housed, travellers bring along five or six caravans with their dogs and horses to a housing estate. That is something that must be investigated. While agreeing that travellers should be cared for, housed, educated and so on, like everyone else, they must obey the law of the land.

In addition, every county must establish a register of travellers and be responsible for them. We in County Mayo, particularly in the Westport area, experience serious problems every summer when anything from 30 to 60 traveller caravans are brought into the town, parked on roads and on beaches and remain there for the summer. Like everybody else, the traveller community is entitled to go on holiday with one or two caravans but their practice of moving in cavalcade and taking over a town, is not acceptable.

Our electorate respond to every worldwide emergency. Whenever Irish people are asked to put their hands in their pockets to assist people in need, perhaps because of their Famine and other experiences, they are very generous contributors, always willing to assist a worthy cause or project at local, national or international level. The settled community will respond to the needs of travellers once the travellers reciprocate.

I favour giving halting sites and local authority houses to travellers but they must live in the same manner as the settled community. I have seen people react in a very vicious manner whenever a halting site is proposed to be located within one mile of their residence. This is especially the case with owners of property and land, many of whom have worked very hard to rear their families, to obtain a mortgage and make a decent livelihood for their families. While not against the traveller community in general, they are critical of the way some of them behave. We have witnessed that behaviour on the part of some members of the settled community, exemplified by many serious incidents nationwide in recent months.

As a public representative, I hear such complaints daily. At my weekly clinic on Monday last, I heard complaints about a housing estate in Westport, one from an unmarried mother with a number of children living in a council estate next door to a traveller. I endeavoured to talk to both parties, and requested the local superintendent of the Garda and the local authority to get them to try to resolve their problems because, if not, one party will have to move on.

There are wonderful voluntary organisations, such as the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and others, whose volunteers give willingly of their time, and will do everything possible to assist travellers but travellers must respond to the settled community and obey the law of the land. It is fear of behavioural problems among the traveller community that leads the settled community to be apprehensive about being near them. That is all the more reason for enrolling children of the traveller community in schools. A number of traveller children now attend school along with my children in Westport. They have settled in and are well respected by the local community.

One woman from the traveller community approaches me regularly whenever the settled community experienced problems arising from traveller behavioural problems. She was the first member of the traveller community to be housed in Westport and she set the standard. The people of Westport responded to her because she responded to them in like manner. Hers is one of the nicest houses in the local estate, well kept, with a garden full of flowers and is a credit to herself and the traveller community generally. We endeavour to obtain her advice and the advice of people like her in Westport to help us house travellers. While it is not a popular political issue, or one that will win votes, at the end of the day we must do what is right by the public, which is why we were elected.

On the equal status Bill, like many other public representatives we see press reports that do not portray the full truth. I know there is a great deal of consultation with the Vintners Federation of Ireland and the Minister will resolve their problem. He will make the right decision when this Bill is introduced, not only in the interests of the traveller community but in the interests of the settled community whose traders must be protected. Almost nightly, members of the settled community are dealt with in public houses, chip shops and discos. In this respect I have no doubt the Minister will introduce appropriate legislation to protect the settled and traveller community alike.

I compliment the Ministers responsible and the Government on the publication of this report. While the travellers and their interests is not a popular issue, it is one that must be confronted because it will not disappear. A number of weeks ago the Mayo county manager predicted this problem will treble in the next 20 years. It must be tackled.

I thank Deputy Ring for sharing some of his time with me. This is a very important issue causing many people enormous problems. Nonetheless there is much hypocrisy among some Members who raise the issue here — those who call for housing for travellers but who would be up in arms if such a settlement were allocated to their local area. Can any public representative put hand on heart and say they want travellers housed beside them? Most people would respond in the negative, so let us be factual about the matter.

The traveller community have brought many problems on themselves; there is no question about that. I can vouch for there being many good traveller families. I am probably one of the few public representatives who can claim that we in Cavan County Council play our part in catering for the traveller community. A halting site was provided for them in the heart of Cavan Town. When the halting site was developed, there followed a slow process, involving a number of traveller families moving in with their caravans, taking up residence, remaining for a while and moving on. Gradually we progressed to building a total of 20 chalets into which travellers moved over a period. They insisted on retaining their caravans so that they could move on whenever they might wish to do so. This policy has worked and those 20 chalets are now occupied. The Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy McManus, recently inspected them. She was very surprised at the progress made and said it could be the forerunner of many such developments nationwide.

Deputies Ring and Michael Smith made the point that, whenever a local authority attempts to help the traveller community by providing facilities in, say, Cavan, Longford, Westport and so on, travellers converge on those areas, creating problems. All local authorities nationwide must play their rightful part in alleviating this problem.

The Minister for the Environment will have to regularise the overall position, imposing sanctions on any local authority that has not lived up to its responsibilities in this matter after a specified period. After all, the traveller community are our people. There is no point in crying about what should be done while nothing continues to be done, adopting the attitude — solve the problem, but not at my back door.

If every local authority played its part, the travelling community could be integrated in the community and we have set a good example in County Cavan. There are, however, families who will not settle because it is their nature to roam. There is danger when six or seven vans converge at a point on very busy roads and I expect there will be a serious accident involving small children sooner or later. There will have to be designated parking sites available for those who simply will not settle. Running water and toilet facilities would have to be available at these parking areas which should be a pre-requisite in every county and located adjacent to the town. If a problem arises with the travelling community, it is known where they are. I have been involved with families in Cavan town who simply cannot settle, come spring they get itchy feet and off they go. There is the added consideration that they are into dealing, buying and selling farm gates is big in rural areas. People could refuse to do business with them but farmers seem to think they get good value — I am sure the local co-op would be able to give them equal value with the added advantage that one could return the item if it is not up to standard.

People have the idea that while travellers are moving around the country, they are also targeting houses for robberies. I cannot honestly say whether they are involved in the robberies although there are indications that some are. However, people in the settled community engage in robbery yet we do not tar the whole community with the same brush. If the unfortunate travellers are caught robbing once or twice, the travelling community are targeted as being all the same.

There are some very good people in the travelling community who are very house proud and supportive of their children. I am aware of one family with a handicapped child and the care the child receives is unprecedented. The offer to take the child into full-time care was refused. The child is looked after perfectly. If we are serious about dealing with the problem we must provide them with caravan parking areas, where they are safely off the road, and the opportunity of progression towards open type chalets so that people can get a feel for what it is like to live in a solid structure where there is a bedroom, bathroom, kitchen and dining area and sitting room. One cannot take a person directly from a caravan and put him into a bungalow, a cottage or other type of building overnight because they simply will not stay there. There is an educational aspect to resettlement. Cavan county manager, Mr. Brian Johnston, and the county secretary will be glad to pass on information on how the system developed in Cavan.

There certainly does not appear to be any poverty among the travelling community. The Department of Social Welfare looks after them extremely well and there are many agencies looking after such people. I often wonder how they can afford their caravans, landrovers and vans. One would have to ask if some members of the travelling community have another agenda because I cannot fathom how they can afford to keep exclusive looking vans on the road and have them taxed and insured. If some of the families are involved in other activities, they should be questioned about it. They certainly could not have such vehicles on the strength of social welfare payments. They may be involved in other activities under the cover of travelling around the country and that is why people raise objections to them.

By and large, the day of the horse drawn caravan has gone but some travellers still keep horses for the children to play with and this causes extreme nuisance, particularly in the city. I do not think they should expect people who have gone to the trouble of buying a house to tolerate four or five horses in the park allocated to a housing estate. That could not be allowed. They will have to toe the line like everybody else. I would not condone allowing a traveller family to pitch their tent beside a housing estate. The people who have made an investment in their homes should have it protected by the State and one should not allow a development that will devalue their property as that would be grossly unfair, but suitable locations can be found. In the heart of Cavan, we have developed a halting site and a residential area that is an outstanding success. If this was repeated nationwide, the problem would be solved.

This is a worthwhile debate on the complex question of the settlement of the travelling community. No party or section of society has a monopoly of virtue in handling this issue, equally, nobody carries the full burden of blame for the lack of an overall settlement.

My party published a programme for the settlement of travelling people entitled "Power Back to the People the Fianna Fáil Alternative" prior to the local elections in 1985. In that document, it is stated:

In recent years, problems relating to the travelling people have become more acute. Fianna Fáil:—

1. Believes that these problems transcend any one area and urges that re-settlement be spread over more communities, in all areas of the country. Fianna Fáil believes that greater understanding and co-operation is required to meet the urgent needs of travellers who are one of the most deprived sections of our community.

I do not think anybody in this House disagrees that this is a national problem and that its solution should be spread throughout the country.

2. Deplores the Coalition's decision to transfer authority in matters relating to travellers to the city and county managers. Fianna Fáil believes that the problem of integration, as well as the achievement of a due balance between the needs of the traveller and the wider community will be effected only with local input.

Discretionary powers should not be placed in the hands of officials who in the interest of any easy solution often ignore local knowledge and, in any case, are more the agents of central government than local democracy.

I believed then and still believe that to integrate the travellers into the community there must be acceptance by the community in the area of the site. Item 3 continued:

Fianna Fáil believes that serviced and supervised halting sites for travellers should be provided, with no more than five families per site. These sites should be properly maintained, supervised and, given the national character of the problem, financed from central funds.

The provision and construction of halting sites are very expensive and the funding should come from the Exchequer. Item 4 stated:

Local authorities will be encouraged to provide special housing and give special attention to the health and educational needs of children.

This is an important principle and much progress has been made in the provision and co-ordination of the health and educational services. Item 5 stated:

Fianna Fáil calls for a renewed effort to address the problems of the travelling people and the areas in which they have settled. This effort must involve local communities as well as central agencies in the solution of what Fianna Fáil sees as a national problem.

It is a national problem today, as it was in 1985. However, this House and the local authorities have done a great deal. It is easy for people to criticise the lack of progress because much remains to be done. Everybody in this House recognises that fact and most fair minded Members of the House, given free choice, would tackle it. Unfortunately, Members are subject to constituency pressures, especially those who are members of local authorities. However, to the credit of many members of local authorities, much has been achieved.

Before the 1985 election there was considerable criticism in Dublin County Council of what was being achieved by the local authorities in Dublin. I had the opportunity in 1985 of reviewing what had been achieved between the original 1960s report on the travellers and the 1980s. In the Dublin County Council area 145 families were provided with halting sites and bungalows. In addition, from 1978 approximately 120 families had been housed, of which 74 traveller families remained as tenants of the local authorities. It is also estimated that approximately half of the 101 houses made available by Dublin Corporation and occupied by traveller families were located in the county. Altogether 316 families were accommodated in the county, 270 of whom were still in accommodation taking account of the 46 who had left the local authority houses.

I am not saying that ten years later a huge problem does not remain within County Dublin. However, it is fair to put on record the achievement of many councillors who took considerable pressure from residents' associations and others in this regard. In 1985, following a proposal from me on behalf of the majority group, the council came up with a suggestion to provide sites and houses for travellers. We believed, as I still believe, that as a society we are not prepared to condemn the travelling community to living in appalling conditions on unauthorised sites at the sides of the roads. As a society we are more Christian in our approach and we should not be prepared to accept children being left on the roadside because communities are not prepared to tackle the problem.

In the programme of 1985, the council decided to locate two sites for five families in each local authority area in the county. On average, each electoral area had approximately 7,500 homes. The proposal would have meant having one travelling family for every 750 homes in an electoral area. That is not too much to ask any community to absorb. In a Christian country we should be entitled to expect that people would accept such a proposal. Generally, people have accepted it.

There are exceptions and problems. There have been mass meetings, appeals, CPOs and other controversies with some sites but many of the facilities proposed in 1985 have been built. Councillors and public representatives have come under horrendous pressure from residents in the process. However, research would show that in many cases the large meetings, which all Members have attended at some time, were organised by a hard core of up to ten people and did not necessarily reflect the views of everybody at the meetings. Given an explanation and a choice, people are Christian in their approach and will accept travelling families in their communities.

Deputies and local authority members might say that it is asking too much of them to attend residents' association meetings to argue their point. We are public representatives because we put our names forward for election as leaders of our communities. As such, it is our responsibility to lead our people and there is no greater challenge than our duty to those within society who are less fortunate than ourselves and who, in most cases, are members of the travelling community. I am a realist and I understand the pressure imposed on councillors and public representatives; I have been subject to it also. However, there are occasions when one must stand up to such pressure.

The 1985 programme proposed two sites for five families in each electoral area. There was considerable pressure from certain regions of the county and that pressure continues today. The idea was that one site would be provided in each area and the second sites would be provided during the second round of construction. Much progress has been made, although not as much as I would have liked. In Ballycoolin, Blanchardstown, ten families have been settled. In Porterstown, Castleknock, there are five families, in Portmarnock there are ten families, in Swords there are five and Balbriggan has five. In addition, housing for ten families has been provided in Parslickstown. There are six temporary halting sites and further sites are planned for Forest Road, Swords, and Navan Road. Those figures relate to just one area of County Dublin.

Much more needs to be done and there must be greater co-ordination. There must be a recognition of the national character of the problem and finance must be provided from Central Funds. There must also be a reward and punishment approach. If one local authority does its duty in providing a programme for the settlement of travellers in its area, it should not act as a magnet drawing travellers to the area. The adjoining local authorities should have to carry their portion of the settlement. They should not be allowed to do nothing in the hope the travellers will go to the adjoining area. There should be greater co-ordination between the Departments of Education and Health and the health boards. Unfortunately, that does not happen.

I have talked about the responsibility of society and public representatives. The travelling community also has responsibilities. It would be naive to suggest that all the problems are on one side. Greater efforts should be made by the travellers to show that communities have nothing to fear by the establishment of sites in their areas. Those living beside authorised or unauthorised sites should no longer be able to point to the destruction of property, intimidation of families or general misbehaviour.

The travellers have responsibilities with regard to their own children. In general, the travelling community's responsibility for its children is excellent. This responsibility is part of their ethos. However, a hard core of families in the greater Dublin area abandon their children at various locations in the city centre in all weathers. If a child from a settled community family was treated that way the health boards would have the child taken into care. The traveller children are left sitting on O'Connell Bridge, for example, while the adults take whatever money they collect and take them away in the evening. It is wrong and should not be allowed to happen. I raised this matter in the House previously but nothing happened. Under the law, if a child from the settled community was involved the parents would be jailed for such mistreatment. However, because it is traveller children who are involved nobody takes responsibility for them. Somebody must take responsibility to protect those children.

The Oireachtas and local authorities are criticised for not providing proper protections. I am proud of an Act I brought through this House — the Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act, 1989, which was welcomed by all parties in the House. It was designed to prohibit incitement to hatred on account of race, religion, nationality or sexual orientation. The definition of hatred in the Act is "...hatred against a group of persons in the State or elsewhere on account of their race, colour, nationality, religion, ethnic or national origins, membership of the travelling community or sexual orientation." The legislation gives protection to the travelling community, as is its right.

Much has been done since the original report in the 1960s. We are inclined to forget about that report and the conditions in which many travellers lived in those days under tarpaulins in horse drawn caravans beside ditches and hedges. A lot remains to be done. Many traveller families live in squalor on roadsides. I welcome the report. However, rather than have diktats and solutions from on high, the issues should be tackled at local level. Sites should be small. We need to give the children the opportunity to integrate in society rather than being in an itinerant camp on the edge of a town with 20 or 30 other families. They should have the opportunity to go to the schools, integrate and have a life in the settled community if that is their choice. If it is not, there should be a proper network of hard shoulder sites and accommodation throughout the country.

Society has a responsibility and the itinerant community has a responsibility. In a united and Christian fashion we can protect the future health, education, welfare and accommodation of the travelling community.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Crawford.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

In recent weeks we heard remarks to the effect that travellers "are not our people". I am glad that statement was withdrawn and that an apology was subsequently proffered. I accept those remarks in no way reflected the policy of Fianna Fáil, whose spokesperson on the traveller community, Deputy Flood, has always impressed me and other Members with his constructive and committed approach to the traveller community. Unfortunately, however, the statement reflects social attitudes — attitudes which are not often articulated, but which have in the past determined the way travellers have been treated.

Members of the traveller community are our people. Their history is inextricably interwoven with the history of the settled community. About 150 years ago there was little difference between the two communities as individuals from all backgrounds roamed the country in search of survival. Democratic Left is not prepared to tolerate any section of our community being excluded from full citizenship. The Task Force on the Travelling Community, which was ably chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy McManus, and, subsequently, by Senator Kelly, made a number of recommendations designed to ensure the traveller community is fully included in Irish society. Sadly, we are still far from that goal. Today the traveller community is separated from the settled community not merely by its lifestyle and culture but also by poverty, ill health, high mortality rates, lack of access to the most basic services and discrimination which is as pervasive as it is unacceptable. The national strategy on accommodation stems from recommendations made in the task force report. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy McManus, dealt with the subject at some length in her contribution yesterday. The House knows she is deeply committed to implementing the national strategy and I believe we are fortunate to have a Minister with her track record overseeing this project.

I will deal today with the social attitudes and prejudices which have developed over decades and which govern and distort the relationship between the travelling and settled communities. Ireland, in common with other developed countries inside and outside the European Union, is currently facing increased levels of social disintegration and alienation. In such a climate of instability, fear and apprehension, there is a temptation to seek scapegoats and many, from journalists to politicans, have succumbed to that in recent months. This creeping climate of intolerance — manifested not only in attacks on travellers, but also in attacks on single mothers, non-nationals and others — must be challenged.

At the end of January, a well-known commentator wrote that travellers are "without the ennobling intellect of man or the steadying instinct of animals".

In common with my party colleague, Deputy Lynch, I considered that and other statements in the article fell within the remit of the Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act, 1989. The article, reminiscent of the demagogic popular journalism common in 1930s Germany, appeared at a time when on the basis of anecdotal evidence alone, travellers were being implicated in a spate of rural crimes. Given the climate in which the article appeared and the overt and covert prejudices against travellers in many rural communities, the article was at best provocative and at worst downright dangerous.

Having made a complaint under the Act, I let the matter take its course only to discover a couple of months later that this article and its author had become a cause célébre for those who would describe themselves as apostles of free speech.

Before the Deputy proceeds I ask him to give the reference for the quotations.

I refer to a report in the Sunday Independent— I do not know the exact date — under the name of its author, Mary Ellen Synon.

Freedom brings with it responsibility and my party has consistently championed the right of all sections of society to express their views without let or hindrance. Members of this House may recall that last year I raised a number of concerns regarding the overly restrictive nature of the Censorship of Publications Act. However, freedom of speech does not include the right to cry "fire" in a crowded cinema and at a time when travellers are regularly subjected to violent attacks, freedom of speech does not include the right to excite popular and sometimes violent feeling against any section of society.

The Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act, 1989 has until recently proven to be something of a legislative paper tiger. There is a strong case for reviewing it and I understand this may be forced on us by the recent European agreement on combating discrimination and racism. There is also an urgent need to bring forward the proposed Equal Status Bill without further delay. It is now nearly three years since it was first promised and the need for such legislation is becoming increasingly apparent.

I urge the Minister not to be deflected from his purpose by the vociferous retailer and vintner lobbies, or by their supporters in the political establishment. The huge publicity garnered by the vintners lobby on this issue in recent months is rooted in fantasy and scare mongering rather than reality. There is no reason equal status legislation should prevent proprietors refusing admission to known troublemakers or ejecting them from their premises. Such action, however, should be taken with good reason and not simply on the basis of blind prejudice. The majority of publicans treat their customers equally. This was borne out by a rough survey carried in The Irish Times yesterday, which found that a group of travellers was served in seven out of ten pubs they visited. In the remaining three pubs, however, they were refused service with no reason. It is that minority of publicans, shopkeepers and other business people who must be dealt with by the Bill.

As well as the proposed equal status Bill, I urge the Minister to consider introducing race relations legislation along the lines of that currently operating in the UK. I have been informed by a Jewish Deputy that he has been receiving outrageous anti-Semitic telephone calls at home — his wife has had to take the telephone off the hook. No doubt the calls are being provoked by the current conflict in the Lebanon but those who are making racist remarks to members of a minority faith must be deemed to be outside the law. If there is insufficient legislation to tackle that at present, we should introduce similar provisions to those in the UK, where there is a multi-cultural society with more experience of the problem.

Travellers are the most visible minority in this State but they are not the only minority. Ireland is no longer a homogeneous society, if it ever was. Earlier this year there was a spate of racial attacks on Dublin's north side and I have no doubt there have been similar incidents in Cork and Limerick. These attacks, against persons of Asian or African extraction, are no more acceptable than the vicious attacks on members of the travelling community I referred to earlier.

All those resident in this State, of whatever background, must be entitled to freedom from harassment and intimidation. They must be entitled to service in a shop or pub, they must know that their homes cannot be attacked with impunity and they must be allowed to walk the streets free from name calling and worse. Legislation cannot of itself change social attitudes. It can, however, protect individuals and groups from some of the worst excesses of bigotry and intolerance. For this reason the Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act should be reviewed, the equal status legislation should be brought forward with all possible speed and the possibility of introducing race relations legislation should be examined.

I thank Deputy Eric Byrne for sharing his time with me. I pay tribute to the Minister for bringing in this report of the task force. This debate is an opportunity for us to look at how we treat minorities in our community. The report is a very valuable document which could be useful. However, unless it is used to put theory into practice, it will be just another report. I believe this Minister and the Government will make significant progress in their efforts to deal with this problem.

In my county of Monaghan the situation is not too bad, except for the periods when large numbers of businessmen-type travellers arrive in cavalcades. In the Clones district, which I represent on the county council, we have a very satisfactory travellers' facility where a number of families are permanently housed who live very amicably within the community. It is a small site which was reorganised in consultation with the local community. That is absolutely necessary and has proved very worthwhile.

There is a similar facility outside Monaghan town which has a number of residents but it is not always full. We also have a transit site there which gives rise to very little trouble, except on some weekends when people arrive and the gates are not open and they park in other residents' avenues for the weekend. We are trying to make sure that does not happen because it is important that the local residents who have, in general, facilitated this accommodation are treated in the way they deserve. Unfortunately, the situation has not been as amicable in Castleblayney. I hope that council officials and local councillors can deal with that situation in a responsible way soon. The Minister stated last night that the actions of some travellers are responsible for the hostility they encounter. We went to fairly significant expense to ensure the site in Castleblayney was a success and as comfortable as possible. Unfortunately, others parked along the road verge which meant that traffic travelling fromn Castleblayney towards Scots Corner had to travel on the right hand side of the road on a dangerous bend. Eventually, we had no choice but to close down that site.

We have to have consultation and co-operation on both sides, as the report has shown very clearly. Sr. Celine has played a major role in that town and has shown what one individual can do to alleviate some of the problems. With social workers attached to the county council, she got involved with discussions and negotiations and has given all sorts of help to the travelling community, easing some problems which could easily have been much worse.

I raised earlier the issue of cavalcades of traveller business people, which is what they are. Most of the local authority's problems are caused when 15, 20 or more caravans and trailers arrive in town parks or along the roads, set up their encampments and offer lorry loads of gates and other products for sale. I was on the road from Cootehill to Cavan the other evening and I saw a full lorry load of gates being unloaded on the road edge. When I returned later that night the gates were still there in a very dangerous location which could cause a great deal of trouble.

Which company supplied those gates? Was it paid VAT and did it put the sale through its books? Are the business people who sell those gates to farmers and others operating legitimately? Many business people are under pressure to pay tax and rates and it is only right that these people should be treated in the same way. A traveller, who I believe was a business person, called to my home and when he failed to sell me half a dozen gates he lowered the price three times. I took out my cheque book to write him a cheque and asked him for a receipt for the taxman. He said he could not do that and was astounded I even asked him for a receipt. The business people who are selling the gates to these people have to think about their main competitors.

The report mentions the need for support and training so that the travelling community can get employment. This is vital. When I was young, which was many years ago, we enjoyed seeing the travellers coming around selling buckets, saucepans, big pots for boiling potatoes and other items which were useful to the farming community. That option is no longer available to the travelling community. They used to mend some of the pots on our doorsteps or in our sheds. Those craft opportunities are not as available to the travelling community as in the past. It is important to ensure they are given every opportunity to be trained and to utilise their time and energies in a profitable and useful way.

I join with other speakers in thanking Deputy Flood, and other members of his party, for distancing themselves from the comments made by a southern councillor. I can understand the frustration of councillors. However, in a Christian country, as we believe this is, we must show some understanding and ensure those in need are looked after in the same way as everybody else.

I am glad of the opportunity to speak on this very worthy report. It was published in July 1995 and it seems a pity we are only now debating it at the end of April 1996. Tardy as it has been, I am glad we have this opportunity to debate it. Well deserved tributes have been paid to my colleague, Deputy Flood, in which I want to join. Deputy Flood is a stalwart performer who takes his duty seriously. The fact that on five separate occasions — and we checked the record — he asked in this House for a debate on the report of the Task Force on the Travelling Community tells its own story.

The Fianna Fáil/Labour Government set up the task force and I commend its first chairpersons, Deputy McManus and Senator Kelly, who replaced Deputy McManus when she became a Minister of State. It was not an easy task to correlate the views of so many people with different viewpoints in a manageable, understandable, readable way.

Deputy Burke was right to praise himself but he was modest in the way he did so. The Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Bill 1989, which he introduced, perceived to be radical and is still so. It is a strong bullwark and breast plate for the travelling community and contains protection for members of that community against verbal and physical attacks. The Cabinet had a full and comprehensive debate on the Bill and the then Taoiseach, Mr. Haughey, was strongly in favour of it. I say this not to blow our trumpets but lest any side would seek to portray itself as the only party with proper thoughts about the travelling community. The initiatives taken over the years have been on a cross-party basis.

The longest section in the report is that dealing with education and training for travellers. It contains twice as many pages as the next longest section, which deals with accommodation. It is right that such a large proportion of this good report is based on the need for education and training. I commend the members of the task force for their dedication and the way they dealt with all aspects of education. This section deals with pre-school, primary, post primary and third level education, junior and senior training centres, ongoing training, and interlinking with FÁS and the vocational education committees. The proposals are worthwhile.

If I was asked what part of the report should first be tackled in a full and comprehensive way, I would suggest that on education. If its many recommendations were implemented, there would be no harassment of or outrages committed against travellers because they would be the masters of their own minds and affairs.

The references show that when I was Minister for Education I commissioned five reports on the need for education and training for traveller children. I commissioned an internal report on their needs at post primary level and this was not published until after I left office. I was interested in this issue because certain measures had been taken at primary level — I am not suggesting we did everything; the report tells us otherwise — which we felt were beginning to be beneficial. Traveller children were beginning to find their proper place in primary education. I welcome the proposals for a review of junior training centres and to change the name of the senior centres.

Many traveller children went directly from primary school to the training centres and there was good reason for this. The centres were needed and I commend Sister Collette for her work in them. However, as second level education became more pervasive, comprehensive and accessible, clearly the best way to proceed in regard to the education of traveller children was for them to be part of mainstream education and not to be segregated. This is clearly acknowledged in the report.

Special schools were reviewed in the task force I set up to examine the special education needs. There is a school in Bray and one or two others for the education of traveller children at primary level. While they continue to do great work in an educational and social sense, the best way to help the children of any group which is perceived to be disadvantaged is to provide resources to enable them to participate in mainstream education. That is better than putting resources into special schools. A circular I sent to the boards of primary schools dealt with enrolment procedures for traveller children. There is a need for all of us to obliterate the concept of special status from our thinking. We must seek to integrate traveller children fully into primary and post primary schools and give them access to all types of courses.

The task force recommends carrying out a census of traveller children, to ascertain the number attending school and the number proceeding to second level and third level. Non-participation in third level is a feature of disadvantaged groups. People do not envisage themselves attending third level, not due to lack of money but because of their background, circumstances and environment. The needs of those not availing of third level education should be considered.

I commend the recommendations on the curriculum and the need for in-service training for primary and post primary teachers. I hope it will become the pattern for more schools to have traveller children in their classes. In-service training for teachers should not take place in static centres but should be provided in-house, so to speak, so that they can understand the needs of these children.

There is a need for children from all social backgrounds to understand the background from which others come. No person should be exclusive or have the right to say their culture is different and they do not want anybody else's culture. There should be a cross-fertilisation of ideas and cultures. We should absorb and be warmed by the backgrounds and cultures of others. We always view the question of dealing with disadvantaged groups from our own perspective, of whether we will be discommoded, whether our locality will be put upon and our children share classes with children from disadvantaged backgrounds? That is putting the might over the weak when clearly it should be an inclusive process. We talk endlessly about the word "inclusive" which is not a mysterious term. It simply means that everybody is entitled to be confident about themselves and where they come from. As regards education, that means being confident like everybody else, they are receiving an education which seeks to integrate various cultures, grades and abilities within the classroom.

The report strongly recommends that travelling children should not be kept on in primary classes after the age of 12 or 13, which is more or less the normal primary school leaving age. I would recommend that, too, because it is in pursuit of the very necessary and worthy aim that such children should move on to second level as most children do at that stage. Why should certain groups of children be left out? To leave them in primary school until they are 14 or 15 is to mark them out as being different. Happily that situation is beginning to change.

Children of travelling people encounter many difficulties, more pointedly at second level. There is the expense of buying a huge range of books which parents of all children at second level must bear. In addition, uniforms are mandatory in many schools although the Minister for Education delivered a circular on that issue last year. Nevertheless school management boards are quite emphatic about what they require from children in their schools.

I remember starting the home-school liaison teacher scheme which was increased during the past three years that I was Minister for Education. I understand that the present Minister has kept it going. Under the scheme teachers were appointed to schools but instead of teaching in the school they went out into the community to talk to parents about what school is like and how their children would benefit from it. There is a visiting teacher facility for travelling children but the number involved is insufficient. The home-school liaison teacher facility should be expanded and developed for the parents of travelling children. The environment of regular school hours is alien to such children and their parents. The help of parents of travelling children is not sought on boards of management, when events are being organised within a school, or at parent-teacher meetings. In any case, such activities would be like another world for them.

When I was a second level teacher in Athlone, I was involved with a committee endeavouring to bring more childeren into second level education. Although life has taught me a lot, at the time I could not understand the tenet of parent-teacher meetings. We must make a huge effort to see that that procedure becomes the norm. When power is given to people they feel they are part of the process and are the better for it.

I wish to thank the officials from the Department of Education who were on this task force, including Mr. Liam Hughes who was later replaced. I know from the recommendations that they made a great contribution. A stalwart of the system was Sister Colette Dyer who was involved before anyone else. We worked closely together in the Department of Education. Sister Dyer and her companion did huge work in the field of education so it is only proper to give credit to somebody like her who in her own way was a pioneer.

I am glad to have been able to speak on this matter, and to commend the report of the Task Force on the Travelling Community.

I am pleased to have the opportunity of speaking in this debate. Congratulations are due to all those involved in the preparation of the report. They include the Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Taylor, who commissioned the report, the Minister of State, Deputy McManus, and Senator Kelly who chaired the task force during its final months. One of our colleagues from Meath County Council, Councillor Cribben, was also on the task force and had major input into the report, he being familiar with the difficulties we have encountered in Meath with regard to the issue of travellers.

In an unprecedented era of economic growth and cultural renewal, when Ireland's reputation abroad has grown in stature, the plight of the travelling community is arguably one of the few blights on our reputation. This report and the Government's response represent an opportunity to deal with this long standing difficulty.

I welcome the Government's comprehensive approach to the report, be it in the field of accommodation, health or education. It is unprecedented in our history. Difficulties between the travelling community and the settled community are often based on misunderstanding and ignorance. However, some problems do exist because of bad faith on the part of one side or the other. Often the settled community jumps to premature conclusions about the travelling community and tar them all with the one brush as a result of isolated incidents. Allegations about traveller involvement in some of the recent horrific crimes in the west is a classic case in point. In the settled community, there is a presumption of innocence until guilt is determined. For travellers the presumption is sometimes the exact opposite. Problems exist on the other side of the coin as well. Traveller spokespersons often speak of the need for the settled community to understand their distinctive culture. It is a point well made. An understanding of that culture and history as elucidated by Deputy Flood yesterday evening, were it known among the wider public, would be welcome. However, the settled community also has its culture and rights. These include their right to a clean local environment and to their open spaces. As the report acknowledges, these rights are often ignored by elements within the travelling community.

I have always been concerned about the all embracing use of the term "culture". Be it in travelling community, the settled community or at national level, the fact is that some behaviour has a historical precedent, perhaps going back generations. For example, the republican culture of armed struggle is no longer acceptable to the vast majority of nationalists. It is a position I support for, surely, at the end of the twentieth century we have gone beyond that.

It is no longer acceptable that a small minority of travellers should send their children out to beg on the side of the street, regardless of the danger that imposes. Similarly, the treatment of women in traditional traveller communities is no more acceptable than was the treatment of women in the country as a whole until a few decades ago. These practices are not worthy of the term "culture". The success or otherwise of the Government's plans arising from this report will depend on people's ability to compromise on competing aspirations and rights. For travellers it will require some compromise on their right to travel. I say this for a number of reasons and with particular examples in mind.

Neither do I propose that any law be introduced to this effect. However, I sometimes wonder how women and children in traveller families are affected by the existing situation. In the settled community for example we are all aware that the greater the security and continuity available to a child in school, the better that child performs, the easier it is to monitor the child's health and respond to difficulties. Similarly, women travellers have a right to the best possible standards of health care. I am sceptical if this can be delivered while they move from place to place.

Local authorities also have a duty to respond to what is a countrywide issue. As the law stands, any local authority has a duty to provide sites for the number of travellers within its area. Certain county councils who do not respond batten on other authorities who take their responsibilities more seriously. Naturally, travellers will be attracted to areas where superior facilities are provided. Consequently, the less any local authority does to cater for travellers, the fewer travellers there are to cater for. Meath County Council, has provided housing accommodation for travellers, which stands alongside the best in the country, and a halting site in Navan. Another halting site is under construction and a further one is planned for Trim. However, events in Navan left a very sour taste with the settled community. For nearly two years travellers continued to park illegally outside a community college and serious allegations of abuse of people and property were levelled against them. The courts were not helpful either. It appears that travellers can move from town to town and from one local authority area to another, with each authority obliged to provide halting facilities. This is a impossibility for any authority and makes the job of getting co-operation from the settled community extremely difficult.

The kind of activity that took place in the seaside resort of Laytown last summer also creates difficulties for any local authority. In that instance, hundreds of travellers moved in on community facilities — tennis courts and playing pitches — and took over the area for weeks. This must be stopped. The courts can no longer take the soft line they have taken in the past because those attempting to provide facilities are being penalised by the courts and other authorities.

I welcome the decision by the Minister for the Environment to establish an interdepartmental working group to monitor the implementation of the report. Its work will be critical in ensuring the success of the accommodation strategy outlined by the Minister of State, Deputy McManus. The groups should take a hard line with any council or county manager who shows any sign of wavering. It has been one of the success of this Government and its predecessor that, not only have we announced schemes in all policy areas, but our track record in following up on them to ensure implementation has improved. Perhaps the best example of this has been the manner in which the Department of Health has been able to ensure that additional resources to alleviate hospital waiting lists has translated into smaller lists.

The Government's strategy is ambitious. The provision of over 3,000 extra accommodation units for travellers by the end of the century is not a piece meal measure. If and when it is delivered upon, it will mark a significant step in our path to becoming a modern and pluralist society.

I also welcome the plans in the areas of education and health. As things stand the high mortality rates of travellers and their lower levels of education are a scandal. However, travellers, and the so called heads of their households, also have their role to play here.

I welcome the Minister's determination to press ahead with employment equality and equal status legislation. As the Minister acknowledged yesterday, reservations have been expressed about this legislation. However, I call on those concerned about these proposals to heed the words of the Minister who said:

The Bill will only apply to discrimination on clearly specified grounds, including membership of the travelling community. Refusal of service for another and genuine reason, such as misbehaviour will be unaffected.

This responds effectively to any reservations I have heard about the legislation. I compliment all those involved in preparing the report and welcome the high quality contributions to the debate.

I do not like to begin on a sour note. However, Deputy Eric Byrne lectured us earlier on the merits of the approach by Democratic Left to minorities, etc. The Deputy should talk seriously with some of the members of his party at local level who do not appear to have got his message. They have made bad situations in my own constituency and the area of County Meath to which Deputy Brian Fitzgerald referred even worse by encouraging activities that should not be encouraged. I will not say any more because I believe matters are now resolved. However, we do not need lectures from Democratic Left on how to behave at local authority level on these matters.

I congratulate all who have contributed to this report. I am aware of the amount of work, the commitment and dedication that went into it. I also congratulate the Minister in bringing it forward and thank the Government for allocating time for an issue as important as this which is usually left on the back burner.

It is especially appropriate that, almost to the day of the anniversary of the reading of the 1916 Proclamation, we should debate a topic such as this. In the proclamation our founding fathers set out their aspiration for society. It was to be an all inclusive society, with the intention that everybody would be treated equally. The proclamation states:

The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation equally,...

It is appropriate that we should, today of all days, ask ourselves if this guarantee holds today and if we have lived up to the ideals of our founding fathers. If we were honest we would have to say it does not. We have not lived up to those ideals. This report and the prospect of its being fully implemented mean that we will have gone a long way towards meeting the guarantee our founding fathers gave 80 years ago to treat all of the children of our nation equally.

As a public representative, I believe it is my duty and that of every other public representative to be vigilant and represent those who voted for me, those who did not and those who are unable to vote. The benchmark of any progressive society has to be the republican principles on which our nation was founded and which are contained in our Constitution whereby everybody in this nation should be treated equally. I believe in that, as we all should. This report and the actions we take as a result of it will show how committed we are to those tenets of republicanism.

Does the guarantee our founding fathers gave in 1916 hold today? In recent times attacks on travellers, particularly those in Bray, Bantry and New Ross, have highlighted the tense atmosphere that can exist between the two communities that are defined primarily by whether their lifestyle is nomadic or otherwise, namely the travellers and the settled community.

The statistics relating to the travelling community are bleak but bear repeating in this House if only to remind ourselves of how far we have to go. The travelling community accounts for 0.5 per cent of the population. There are over 1,000 households on the roadside and 237 on temporary sites. Infant and adult mortality rates are twice those of the settled community. There has been a 25 per cent increase in traveller families during the last ten years. No person with any Christianity could stand up in this House and say anything other than this report is overdue and should be implemented immediately.

The task force was established in July 1993 and that welcome initiative culminated in this report. The five sub-committees on accommodation, education and training, health, traveller economy and discrimination address all the crucial problems and highlight most clearly the disparity at every level between the two communities. The main thrust of the report is that the lifestyle of the traveller is getting steadily worse, despite all the progress we have allegedly made over the last number of years. That problem is compounded by the disappearance of the traditional economic activities of travellers, as well as the low rate of participation by travellers in the mainstream labour force and their high reliance on social welfare payments.

The task force results, reflecting submissions to it, and the all-encompassing recommendations on the traveller issues set out for us an agenda that must be confronted urgently. The Government should not procrastinate. The report should be implemented and the plight of the traveller community, which is getting steadily worse, should be faced. I acknowledge the progress that has been made since the report was published.

I have one regret in relation to the Government's reaction to the report in that the Minister for Equality and Law Reform is not in complete and overall charge of implementing and co-ordinating all sections of the report with a budget to do so. I know of his sincerity and commitment to this and other areas of his brief. I have no doubt that had he been given full charge of this programme it would be implemented. I pay that tribute to him because I know of his dedication. The implementation is not being done in that manner. I can only ask the Minister to ensure, and I know he will, that it does not fall between two stools and that there is no lessening of the effort because it is spread over a number of Departments. That is a crucial issue which must be addressed.

Undoubtedly, the accommodation of as many members of the travelling community as possible should be given priority by this Government. The Minister has stated, and the Government has repeated on a number of occasions, that it has agreed to provide over 3,000 units of additional accommodation by the year 2000. That is a very ambitious and expensive programme but it is the least we can do. The task force recommendations further outline the necessity for supporting administrative and legislative changes to meet the needs of the existing and projected population of the traveller community. This is the right approach.

We cannot do what we did before which was to provide housing accommodation, whether particular housing accommodation for travellers or a house in the middle of an estate, and just leave people to their own devices. That policy was pursued by local authorities in good faith even in the recent past. It was not good policy because travellers were housed in settled areas. They were not suited and prepared properly for the settled life and their neighbours were not prepared for them. The result was a disaster. As Deputy Fitzgerald will know, in many of the early settlements in County Meath where travellers were put into houses, they left after a number of years because of these problems. The approach detailed in the report is correct. We should provide the accommodation but we must also provide the back up and support for the families to ensure they can fit into their environment and that the environment can adapt to them. We did not place enough emphasis on that in the past.

The other essential areas of health and education are linked to the accommodation question. One will have a better chance of success in those areas, some of which were outlined by my colleague, Deputy O'Rourke, if people are in reasonable accommodation, whether fixed, transient or whatever. Accommodation is a basic need that must be addressed.

One of the causes of the major problems of dissent, hostility and discrimination within and between the communities is the inferior living conditions of travellers. Travellers often find themselves criticised and abused because of the unsanitary and unhygienic conditions in which they are forced to live. This leads to problems with the settled community. Those conditions have to be challenged by both communities. The report states that the best and most effective way of doing this is by helping travellers to help themselves. The irony is that the settled community must also challenge its stereotypical attitudes which often go a long way to preventing good neighbourliness between travellers and the settled community. As with any divided society, minimal contact between the communities contributes more to the prejudice and ignorance which exists on both sides, but probably more on the settled side.

The report of the commission on itinerancy, the report of the travelling people review body and this task force report recommended the need to urgently address accommodation requirements. I hope they will be urgently addressed and that they will not be swept aside as they were in previous reports. All the reports emphasise the importance of trying to solve the accommodation problem.

Local authorities must be flexible in their approach to the provision of accommodation. Attitudes among members and officials must change because in many cases they are stereotyped. In addition to local authorities protecting the needs of travellers, there should also be a coherent national strategy which reflects an organised approach and prevents conflicting council policies in different areas. Deputy Brian Fitzgerald referred to this. There is no point in Meath County Council, for example, being a good local authority and trying to meet the needs of travellers, if travellers from other counties, who do not have accommodation, decide to move there because it is the only place where something will be done for them. This problem must be tackled at national level.

Deputy Brian Fitzgerald also mentioned the travellers who leave houses every year at the same time and invade other communities and abuse people and facilities. That must be addressed or it will cause huge problems between the two communities. It is in the interests of the travellers as well as the settled community to address this issue.

In the past few days there have been calls on the Minister for the Environment to investigate organised and bully-boy tactics against travellers. I reiterate that call because whoever authorised such illegal activities should be brought to justice. It reflects a view in society that we should not tolerate and which must be confronted.

We should respect the travelling culture while encouraging them in areas such as mainstream employment. Providing quality education for children and addressing women's welfare problems will go some way towards addressing this issue. It is a testament to that approach and to the adage that "nothing succeeds like success" that Mr. Frank Barrett, a 19 year old Galwegian traveller, is included in the Irish Olympic boxing team. His success is Ireland's success. This is due not only to his own efforts and discipline, but also to the efforts of two local gardaí, a local radio station and a bank who supported him. Such action by both communities who worked together can yield the type of society of which we can be proud and for which the signatories of the Proclamation would have hoped. We must emphasise that travellers are people, not problems. If we address them as people, we will go a long way towards removing many prejudices.

I congratulate Deputy Dempsey on a well constructed speech which began and ended with a reference to the Republic. I respect that approach to this issue. If the Republic is not a motivating factor, I hope our Christian values are when responding to the needs outlined in this report.

The last speaker referred to Bantry which hit the headlines recently in relation to travellers in the playground there. When the issue arose I tried to get through to the "Gay Byrne Show" because I holiday in that part of the country and Bantry is the major town near where we stay. Each year we went to the play area which gradually became more derelict. Approximately three or four years ago in the play area there were a couple of travellers' caravans beside the tennis courts. My eldest children started to play tennis while the younger ones shared tennis balls with the travellers' children. The equipment in the playground was appalling in that swings were rusted and the sandpit had not been cleaned for many years.

When I came back to Dublin I wrote to the local Deputy and asked him to do something about the playground. It never occurred to me to say anything about the travellers. I received an extraordinary letter which stated that they did not plan to do anything about the playground until the travellers had been removed. It was not a problem for me that travellers' caravans were there, but that the play equipment was unsafe for children and that the playground was unsightly.

Perhaps the reason my reaction was not shared by those locally is that there is a large travelling cohort in my constituency. We have two major housing sites and two official halting sites. The major halting site for Castleknock is also in Finglas and there are one or two large unofficial sites. I am not saying we do not have problems, but we have the opportunity to mix regularly with travellers. Many mature relationships have developed in the community, including one with myself as a public representative. The travellers are a pleasure to do business with because they are uniquely patient when we are trying to find the resources to give them. They have added a lot to the community in Finglas and they contribute in many ways, such as recycling material from the city dump.

We should congratulate everyone involved in the task force report which is a comprehensive and fundamental document. Some time has passed since the commitment was given to achieve full housing of travellers by the year 2000. I do not know what progress has been made in the two years since that objective was established but I hope what happens in the remaining three years to the turn of the century will be monitored carefully. We must ensure that objective is achieved because, as the previous speaker said, accommodation is a central issue and the opportunity to reduce hostilities flows from it.

I welcome that the report has the reduction of conflict as a priority item. From my experience, contact and communication are key elements. If these exist, one begins to realise that travellers are as varied in their talents and personalities as their neighbours in the settled community. There are bad eggs, as in the rest of society, but many travellers have fine qualities. Communication and contact is important.

As the report acknowledges, the community development programmes which have been established in recent years are extremely important in terms of the confidence of the travelling community and the emergence of individuals who have become leaders and public spokespersons. As a result of major programmes in recent years, people have been in a position to put their case clearly, articulately and attractively. This surprised many in the settled community.

The Pavee Point development is most important and a pleasure to visit. It is also a pleasure to visit the homes of travellers, many of whom keep their homes like new pins. They would be as well represented as good housekeepers in the settled community. They maintain many of the old features, such as metal and ceramics in the window and net curtains. There are also attempts to develop gardens, even in the most appalling circumstances, on the sides of the roads if they manage to stay long enough for a planting season. Such efforts are also visible outside large scrap-yards. We share many of their motivations to make a better world and, as the previous speaker pointed out, much more progress could be made if we tapped into that on the basis of a mutual agenda rather than along the traditional lines of hostility.

I visited Israel for a housing and planning conference — Dublin Corporation is receiving bad publicity at present but I have not been on any of the major trips recently — and one of the topics there was their problems with the Bedouin community. Many people say the Bedouin community is different from the travelling community because they are much more exotic; the community is historic and they ride around the desert on camels. However, the same problems arise with the Bedouin community in terms of urban settlements, how they integrate and their place in a modern world, how they can be educated and what can be done to stop them dying young.

The problems are similar but an interesting proposal was made at the conference which indicates a deeper respect for their culture than the travelling community here. One of our major visits was to a Bedouin area. They were developing a cultural centre and we were entertained under tents in the Bedouin style. I mentioned this to colleagues in the House and they found it outrageously funny. However, it is not funny and perhaps we could consider such a move in Ireland. Pavee Point is a first stage in that regard. Although it is based in a major urban building, elements of the culture are presented there. Perhaps recognition of the culture could take this form in the future.

We should remember that people once thought bottled water would not sell. Perhaps we could make that jump regarding travellers at some point in the future and perhaps a traveller group could consider such a project. Many aspects of their culture are interesting, as is much of our lost way of life. For example, many aspects of our culture in the 1950s is fascinating but it is disappearing quickly. If we do not attempt to capture them now, many old traditions in the travelling community, such as craftwork, will be gone.

Discrimination is a critical issue. The Minister must answer questions about the ongoing delay in introducing the equal status legislation. Deputy Smith mentioned encouraging people to be brave in facing down the inevitable public opposition to local halting sites. We all have experience of this issue and some responded differently from others. However, Deputies will show their mettle by supporting the Minister's efforts on this issue. Reasonable responses from those in business should be taken into account but we should not compromise on the fundamental issue that they may not discriminate against travellers. This is the challenge facing all sides of the House. It is also a way in which those who warmly support this document can help to change the position of travellers.

Some Members may have read an article in the Evening Herald yesterday written by a journalist who visited a number of pubs with three travellers, one of whom is well known to me; a number of them may be from my constituency. The group sought entry to ten pubs in the city, seven pubs accepted them and three rejected them. The logic for rejecting or accepting them was incoherent and it indicates that it is possible to discriminate against travellers in the same way as any other group. It is important that the House shows it is serious about the issues raised in the report. It identifies that discrimination is a real problem for travellers on many fronts. Legislation is required, but also the mechanisms to support it. I urge all those who contributed to the debate to support it and ensure it is not watered down to the extent that it does not achieve its objective. This will test the sincerity of many of the contributions to the debate.

I was aware of the situation regarding the health of travellers but it was shocking to read it as presented in the report's summary. The difficulty for travellers of being accepted on medical card lists is sad. The summary also mentions their level of access to public health nurse intervention. Many of these aspects are fundamentally related to the lack of sympathy in the community. The low rate of immunisation is most worrying when one considers that over 90 per cent is the desired objective. They are achieving a rate of approximately 50 per cent and this is very much out of kilter with the rest of the community. They also have limited access to out-patient and in-patient services. I shared a maternity ward with a traveller woman and I saw the great difficulty she faced in accessing services in the same way. Some of it is related to cultural difficulties but traveller women are not integrated and much work needs to be done in that area.

Those of us on local authorities are familiar with the issue of accommodation and I am glad that Dublin Corporation has made significant progress in this area. However, we have the advantage that the area is largely developed and there are not many open sites that travellers can enter. We have problems but, by and large, we are moving to deal with them. Despite the fund which is available for improving and providing traveller accommodation, there are extraordinary delays in the Department of the Environment and the corporation. The priority given to travellers seems to be a great deal lower than conventional housing programmes which, put on the list 12 months after improvements to a travellers' site were mooted, have been completed 18 months to two years before the work on the travellers' site got under way. I refer to the Ballymun site in particular and I could mention at least six housing areas in the city.

There is a real problem in the Department of the Environment. The structures and the resources exist but adequate priority is not given to travellers. One would expect an enthusiastic welcome for projects which have local agreement, given that this is so difficult to achieve. If there is local authority support for a development, the Department's attitude should be to move ahead quickly, put the development in place and work on the more difficult projects. However, the opposite is the case. We had an extraordinary experience in my area when a small housing site was agreed to. It caused great difficulties and political stress for a number of us who supported it and it had a political fallout for some. The end result was that the Department of the Environment did not go ahead with it because a compromise was reached to reduce the number of units and it was decided that the cost per housing unit did not warrant proceeding with the plan. We should not face such experiences when agreement is reached as regards traveller accommodation. The Minister should ask that the Department of the Environment be shaken up a little.

As others have said, accommodation is critical because from it flows access to education and health. In my area we have had traveller education schemes and classes and they have been integrated into one of the local schools. I suppose we made mistakes in terms of lack of integration. We have seen the value and problems of training centres. Adult education is extremely valuable. Many women, not only in the travelling community but in deprived areas, become pregnant early in their lives. The travelling community shares a great deal with the deprived areas in the city where many young women are lone parents, but at least those in the travelling community are in a family situation. Perhaps the reason travellers are more accepted in these areas is that people see they share similar problems which removes prejudices that may exist among the more privileged who have not had similar experiences.

An issue which has been thoroughly analysed covers the economic activities of travellers and the problems which they cause. We argue about this regularly in Dublin Corporation. While we provide housing, we will not provide space for economic activity. Communities face problems in relation to the unsightliness of scrap-yards. I would perfer to maintain economic activity through adequate planning and the provision of suitably screened areas adjacent to sites. If sites were adequately screened, they would be more acceptable to the community.

Despite the serious analysis of needs, I will conclude by being a little upbeat. I know a number of people from the travelling community. Many people, through lack of knowledge, perceive them as a deprived group. From what I know of the travelling community, it is an exciting and vibrant group. They provided a major float in the Old Finglas festival which was horse drawn and presented many of the fine crafts which they are still capable of producing, including copper work. There are some remarkable families, including the Collins and the Maughan families, in Finglas and in Ballymun. They are well liked in the community and they provide many services. Travellers are loyal voters. At the last election a traveller arrived at my headquarters in a Hiace van looking for posters and leaflets. The feeling that it is all one way cannot be substantiated. It was something which gave me and them great pleasure.

I finish by telling a story which indicates that travellers are on the move. Many Members will remember the media attack on travellers as a result of remarks made by the senior law officer investigating a number of crimes in the west. A press conference was held at which all political parties and interest groups were represented to support travellers and to say that this did not represent an honest view and that it was dangerously close to incitement to hatred. Suddenly, the inevitable mobile telephone rang. It belonged to someone who was distinctly a traveller with a ponytail and an earring and who had to leave with his mobile telephone in his pocket. Travellers are on the move and they are good partners. We must accept needs must be met in relation to housing, health, education and a wide range of issues. We must meet the immediate challenge of the equal status Bill and work in partnership with the travelling community to meet the other needs identified in this excellent report.

I am glad of the opportunity to comment on the report of the Task Force on the Travelling Community. I congratulate everybody associated with it and our spokesperson, Deputy Flood, who gave us a good run down on travelling people, where they came from and the progress made over the years. There is consensus that the travelling community deserves attention as regards integration into the mainstream of society. How this should be done is another question. The task force has its views and, by and large, they are acceptable. However, in many cases the settled community has divergent views on a number of issues, especially in relation to accommodation. Their views are not being sufficiently listened to by Government, county councils, urban councils and other people concerned.

The question of housing, whether in single houses, group housing, halting sites, transient sites or emergency sites, is emotive and consultation with all concerned is essential. The idea that one can force halting sites on local communities without consultation is unfortunate and at best divisive. It is not sufficient to give powers to county managers for compulsory purchase orders to acquire sites. Although a site is acquired, one may divide a community and lose the goodwill which exists towards travellers. We now have settled and indigenous travellers to an area or a county. We have transient travellers and traders trading in scrap or antiques. Moneylenders and caravan traders are an unwelcome subgroup which has developed within the travelling community. They are experts in the management of money and moneylending and they do no service to the indigenous population or to other travelling people who require caravans and on whom they prey. It is an unwelcome development.

The subgroups within the travelling community may need to be dealt with in various ways and flexibility is essentially. Philosophy is all right but it will not solve problems in relation to the travelling people. It is no good producing reports if we do not act on them in a sensible way. We must take into consideration the views of the settled community which is in the majority. By and large, the settled community is fair-minded if approached openly and given details. It appears housing is the best long-term proposal as regards addressing the problems of the travellers. Accommodation will make it easier for other processes to unfold in areas such as education, health, the environment, occupational problems, social welfare, discrimination and integration. On the issue of accomodation, caravans and halting sites are not the best option. Caravans per se are not suitable because they are fire hazards. There is also an overcrowding problem as traveller families tend to be large. We must consider this issue and not rush into adopting a simple solution which will not solve the long-term problems of traveller people.

If we provide good housing, we will contribute to improved health among travellers and the housing authorities may be able to register their numbers in any given area. It would then be easier to keep records and provide immunisation and parenting and home economics skills. When dealing with disadvantaged groups, it is essential that they be made aware of the proper methods for preparing food and know which foods are good and which are essential. Traveller people have a tendency to eat convenience foods. That reflects badly on the way in which we deal with travellers and their knowledge of diet, etc.

Maternity care has improved in recent years. Traveller mothers now visit maternity clinics and take iron supplements, folic acid etc. They are not afraid to come to doctors' clinics, which is a welcome feature. In the long-term, if this process continues, statistics for maternal and infant mortality among traveller people will fall into line with those for the settled community.

Speakers referred to the life expectancy of travellers. In this respect we must consider smoking, diet, and their modus vivindi. Do traveller people take sufficient care of their health? It is a two way process. There is an onus on the medical profession and on the traveller community regarding the way in which they live and behave. General practitioners have been accused of not providing facilities and treatment for travellers. Health boards must improve their services to travellers. Sometimes a traveller comes to a general practitioner's surgery, and the general practitioner may not be recompensed for the service provided, because the health board will state that it has no record of the person in question being registered in its locality. Travellers must be provided with a different type of medical card which can be used in any health board area. Another issue relating to travellers is intermarriage which is causing many problems, including genetic defects. They should be informed of the implications of marrying a close relative. The incidence of genetic defect among the group is well documented.

I compliment the traveller community for the way in which it deals with children with mental handicap. Such children are well cared for and are not placed in residential care. Traveller people take good care of their own if given any help in doing so. Members of the traveller community also have a tendency to marry early. This can pose problems in later life. It is a vital ingredient in the process of the integration of travellers. The place to begin that process is at pre-school and primary level. Moneys must be made available to help traveller people in this regard. The parents of traveller children may not have much education and require extra assistance to set them on the right path. As Deputy O'Rourke stated, everybody should be well versed in the three "Rs" -reading, writing and mathematics. We can build on this and encourage children especially those who are not interested in academic subjects to pursue an education in the vocational subjects such as woodwork or metalwork, which are traditionally associated with the traveller community. The question of education involves flexibility and we must try to give these children a chance.

Education is the one area where easy integration can be achieved at an early level. I compliment the religious communities for their tremendous work in this area. They were involved in this type of work long before others began to highlight it and they have done their part with regard to integration of education at pre-school and primary level. Great emphasis must be placed on primary education but travellers must also be encouraged to become involved in second level education — vocational or otherwise. Academic excellence cannot be equated with intelligence. Quite a number of travellers are very intelligent and work intelligently in vocational subjects such as woodwork, metalwork, etc., which have been a tradition of their community.

Settled people cannot accept destruction of their environment through illegal parking and the destruction of flowers, shrubs, etc. The problem in regards to horses has been raised in this House on a number of occasions. I understand legislation will be introduced to deal with that whole area.

Illegal parking is a problem with regard to the development of tourism. The traveller community must act responsibility in this regard and must be flexible in its relations with settled people who also have rights. Unfortunately the Garda do not have the power to inform the traveller community that parking is completely forbidden in certain areas. Parking is permissable on national primary highways but there are problems removing travellers from other areas. The hands of the Garda are tied in this regard. The importance of introducing laws which take account of the problems experienced by both travellers and the settled communities must be appreciated.

Social welfare benefits are not the answer to travellers' problems. Unfortunately, when travellers settled in houses we gave them social welfare but nothing else. We did not provide education or training and we are now paying for that. We did not treat them the same as settled people. We did not look after their education.

Debate adjourned.
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