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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 9 May 1996

Vol. 465 No. 2

National Standards Authority of Ireland Bill, 1996: Second Stage (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Rabbitte, on Thursday, 2 May 1996:
That the Bill be now read a Second Time.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete "now" and add at the end of the motion the following words:
"this day six months, in order to ensure that the concerns of the staff of NSAI to the proposed changes be fully addressed".
—(Deputy O'Rourke).

Regarding the casualisation of the workforce in the NSAI, there are 43 contract workers and that does not include nine SIPTU clerical staff on contract work. Contract employees are being used by management as bargaining tools in the current situation. This position is unacceptable and should not be the example set by the State sector in terms of the casualisation of work through the use of contract workers.

I am aware the Minister is concerned about the problem of the casualisation of work and I ask him to intervene to ensure that this problem is resolved before this Bill is enacted.

The staff of the NSAI encountered great difficulties with a number of sections, particularly sections 8 and 15. Section 8 states that all functions in relation to standardisation, harmonisation, certification or inspection vested, in Forfás by section 9 of the 1993 Act shall vest in and be exercised only by the Authority. That could preclude Forbairt from carrying out some of its current activities and its future plans which it is in the process of developing. Will the Minister reconsider this matter and bring forward an amendment on Committee Stage to take account of the views expressed by staff on this matter?

Section 15 states that the Authority shall have the power to establish companies, both inside and outside the State, for the purpose of providing services in relation to standards and certification. There is great potential for registration work in the United States as subsidiaries of multinational companies here are achieving quality standards which their parent companies in America have not yet reached. The staff of the NSAI are concerned that the inclusion of this section will prevent Irish workers from availing of this type of opportunity. Will there be job losses? That needs to be clarified. US subsidiary companies here meet the high standards set in this country.

The parent companies in the US demand the same standards of themselves. We should take advantage of the competition that exists.

I am pleased the Minister of State intends to amend the First Schedule of the Bill to make provision for worker representatives on the board of the NSAI. It is a progressive move which the staff will welcome. I have expressed reasonable and legitimate concerns on points put forward by the staff. I hope the Minister of State will meet the staff again so legislation can be achieved that will ensure those involved can work together on the country's behalf. There is a need for change and I hope the Minister of State can amend the Bill to improve it.

I support the amendment proposed by Deputy O'Rourke. I am pleased this legislation has finally come before the House. Some time has passed since the then Minister of State, Deputy Séamus Brennan, set out proposals to introduce this legislation which is needed to reassure consumers about the products they are purchasing, particularly in view of the recent BSE-CJD scare in the UK.

This Bill will give autonomy to the NSAI which is under the aegis of Forfás at present. The NSAI needs to be recognised as a separate entity, particularly in view of the certification awards it grants in the manufacturing and service industries. Ireland has always had high standards for its manufacturing and service industries. However, word of mouth is no longer acceptable and to maintain the high levels of support in the domestic and foreign markets, it is vital that the quality and safety of products be independently certified in line with recognised standards.

It is important that consumer interests are represented on the board of the NSAI. To date there has been no consumer input. Consumers form a significant part of the standards equation and their exclusion from the process must be addressed. The Minister must ensure a consumer input in the preparation and implementation of standards.

I am concerned about the policing of the marketplace with regard to this Bill. There is little point in introducing this legislation if the correct measures are not put in place to ensure the regulations are properly policed. Huge responsibilities have been placed on the Government by way of European regulations governing toy safety, medical products, protective clothing, energy consumption and electrical appliances. This Bill provides an opportunity to rationalise the involvement of many Departments and bring them into line with modern European practices. Therefore, it is important that the necessary steps are taken to ensure these European regulations are correctly policed by the combined efforts of the Garda, the Customs service and the NSAI.

The recent BSE scare in the UK has had serious repercussions for our beef industry. It is vital that the NSAI has standards in the processing of food in Ireland. What standards exist for food products, for the feeding of cattle pigs, poultry and other livestock or for the labelling of food products? Certain standards are relevant to the needs of the market and the consumer. Every consumer is entitled to have as much information as possible about the food he consumes particularly fresh meat, vegetables and fruit. The French have established an excellent system known as the red label system. This label guarantees the consumer the safety of the product being purchased. If one purchases meat under this system information is given about the farm on which the animal is reared, the breed of the animal, the type of feeding system used in production and the content of the feed used.

Certification is necessary for meat products because people are no longer satisfied with glib assurances about prime beef cuts. Beef production is vital to our economic well-being. A belt and braces food security policy is needed. Under this Bill we have an opportunity to establish a system such as the French have. Consumers should know the farm on which the animal was reared, the breed of the animal and the system of feeding used.

In France the farm of origin is indicated on poultry products; the stock is chosen for the quality of its meat; there must be specific open air space for farm raised poultry; guarantees must be given on the constituents of feed used; there are strict hygiene rules for the production and slaughter techniques; and, each bird must have a personalised identity tag. If we took similar measures we would have a food industry which would be the envy of the world. The Minister of State should consider these matters for Committee Stage.

The NSAI has a role to play in ensuring the highest standards of quality are achieved in our food industry. We should adopt a system similar to the French system to protect our industries. Unfortunately, having read this Bill closely, I cannot find any indication that the Minister is to take steps to introduce such a labelling system.

On the purchase of materials used in the development of public buildings, is the Minister of State aware that a considerable amount of imported products is being purchased by public authorities for the construction of public building? What control governs the safety of the products being purchased? Do public bodies purchase to recognised standards? These matters must be given serious consideration in view of the spending of public moneys. Is it proposed that the NSAI will have a role in preparing standards for these products which will ensure that quality products made in Ireland are purchased by our public authorities, given that it is European policy to have common standards?

Following the broad adoption by industry of the ISO 9000 quality standard, and the obvious benefits companies derive from its use, what role will the NSAI play in developing this standard in the public sector where it would undoubtedly provide a means for introducing cost savings and efficiency? What steps does the Minister of State propose to introduce the concept of ISO 9000 standards into Departments, State agencies, local authorities and county councils?

Members are aware of the importance of employment. It is widely recognised throughout Europe that a large number of jobs are created in small and medium sized enterprises and that growth must be encouraged in these areas. Small and medium sized businesses are already overburdened with red tape and it is important the Minister of State ensures that the NSAI takes the necessary steps to assist such businesses in coping with the new regulations contained in this Bill. Where a group of ten businesses comes together as a unit to obtain certification for their products, the overall cost to the group should be reduced by a reasonable amount. I intend to table an amendment in this regard on Committee Stage.

Bearing in mind the importance of standardisation and certification of industry in the regions, it is important that the NSAI have a regional presence and not be located solely in Dublin. What are the Minister of State's plans for providing a regional focus for imparting standards and information to industry and the consumer? Perhaps he will consider my proposal that an office be located in the Cork region where a high level of service and manufacturing industry operate. Since the Minister of State took office, I have appealed to him about the fact that the area of north Cork, small as it may be, has been absent from his agenda for decentralisation. There are many fine towns in east Cork which could benefit from the process of decentralisation. An opportunity now exists to locate an office in the Cork region because much of the industry there is located in the county towns. The Minister of State's political colleague from Cork city and I would be glad if he considered this matter.

Many people are aware of the ISO 9000 quality standard. The independent certification of Irish products is essential in order that companies can enter export markets and succeed in domestic sales strategies. Irish producers are aware of the commercial importance of having the quality and safety of their products certified in line with internationally recognised specifications. Consumers are also aware of this importance. As I stated earlier, our attention should be focused on the public sector and we should encourage the introduction of ISO 9000 standards to Departments, State agencies, local authorities and county councils. This would encourage the introduction of cost savings and greater efficiency in the public sector.

The Bill does not deal with the area of education. The importance of consumer standards should be introduced to the school curriculum so that children can appreciate and understand it from an early age.

The reconstituted NSAI will play a vital role, through independent product certification, in facilitating sustained economic and employment growth in the years ahead. It will provide a very important service to domestic manufacturers through efficient delivery of product certification and will set new standards, thereby enhancing the sales potential of Irish goods in the international marketplace. The establishment of the NSAI as an autonomous agency will enhance its reputation as an independent certification authority in line with those of other member states of the European Union. With its new designation, the NSAI will provide a world-class certification service to Irish industry. This is essential if we are to meet the new trading requirements of the European Union.

I welcome the Bill on behalf of Irish industry. It is important and necessary legislation. I welcome the fact that the Minister of State, in placing a worker representative on the board of the NSAI, has come around to the Fianna Fáil way of thinking. I recently tabled an amendment to the Irish Steel Bill aimed at putting a consultation process in place. The amendment was not accepted by the Minister of State but I believe he has learned from that and come around to my way of thinking in this area. It is never too late to change one's opinions.

There has been much discussion of the fact that local authorities are not efficient. The National Standards Authority, through ISO standards 9000 and 9002, has a way to measure efficiency and standards in general. It should be obligatory that local authorities and the public sector attempt to attain these standards which would measure their efficiency. Many businesses in the hotel and catering industry are presented with a plaque which denotes the fact that they are efficient and successful. For this reason, local authorities should be encouraged to participate.

Small firms will be the engine of job creation and enterprise in the future and must be encouraged to participate. Such participation will involve a cost factor. Earlier I suggested that ten firms of equal standard might be permitted to unite to qualify for the ISO 9000 on a group basis. This matter must be sympathetically considered. Perhaps a figure of ten companies is too large, but I am open to negotiation on that point.

When in Opposition one can table many good amendments and resolutions but the Government has the power to vote them down. I hope that a spirit of compromise will obtain on Committee Stage. I welcome the Bill and look forward to co-operating further with the Minister of State on Committee Stage. He may accept some of the amendments tabled by Fianna Fáil as he is coming around to my party's way of thinking. I have no doubt that he will accede to some of our requests.

I was interested in Deputy O'Keeffe's concluding remarks in relation to the manner in which his and the Minister of State's thought processes are uniting. Is this the shape of things to come? Have we seen the first signs of a great new coalition which could take us beyond the year 2000?

The Bill is interesting in that it is part of a phenomenon relating to the regulation of science and technology and the role of semi-State bodies in this regard. During the past 20 years there has been a considerable consolidation of semi-State bodies involved in science and technology. The National Science Council, the National Board for Science and Technology, an Foras Talúntais and an Foras Forbartha were closed down, consolidated or seriously reduced. It was during this phase that expenditure on science and technology was reduced and the international scientific journal Nature described Ireland as having turned its back on science.

The cycle has turned and to some extent this is due to the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, who is to be commended on the changes he has introduced. We are moving on to a new phase, expanding and setting up a new semi-State body. This seems to indicate a change in policy which may be modelled on a scientific cycle, for example, the carbon cycle where compounds first go up into the air and are later built into large molecules.

One of the reasons I am contributing to the debate is to highlight the concerns expressed by the staff of the IIRS who have questioned the necessity for the Bill. They believe that the issue of a conflict of interest could be addressed by moving the National Accreditation Board out of Forfás and relocating it in the Department of Enterprise and Employment. I ask the Minister to deal with this point in his reply. They have also raised questions about the cost of the authority which need to be answered. One of the primary reasons given in the past for the closure of semi-State scientific bodies, for example, the National Board for Science and Technology, was cost. This was a low point during a dark decade for science and it is important that we learn from those mistakes. It would be a great pity if the people behind those policy decisions did not realise the damage they caused to the capacity of science and technology during that period. It is important to remember that science and technological capacity cannot be built up over night but rather is developed slowly and systematically.

I agree with the points made by Deputy Ryan about sections 8 and 15 and the provision which will allow for the establishment of companies outside Ireland for the purposes of providing services in relation to standards and certification. Is the Minister concerned that this may be used as a means of exporting jobs of the country?

I am pleased the Minister has indicated that he is prepared to make provision for worker participation on the board of the new authority. I wish to reiterate the concerns expressed about the number of contract staff employed in this area. The ratio of three contract workers to one permanent worker is grossly excessive. Contract staff are employed on a year-to-year basis and have no stability in terms of employment. It is impossible to build up scientific capacity if the people working in this area are constantly looking for jobs so that they can make provision for their future. The ratio of three contract workers to one permanent worker is unacceptable and not reconcilable with the proposal to build up capacity in this area so that we can meet the highest standards in the world.

Deputy Ryan said that the ratio of contract to permanent staff may have been used as a negotiating tool in the preparation of the Bill and I would like to hear the Minister's views on this point. There is necessity for standards in the area of science and technology. Our industries will stand or fall in the modern global economy on the basis of its standards and it is important to invest in standards and science and technological capacity. This is a long-term investment but it will yield dividends.

Deputy O'Keeffe referred to the food industry and it is worth reiterating that the strength of the dairy industry is related to the sustained investment in science and technology since the establishment of the faculty of dairy science in University College Cork in 1926 and the faculties of veterinary medicine and agriculture in UCD. The capacity of the dairy industry is in sharp contrast with the dismal state of the meat industry. It is important that this is understood by the people who are ultimately responsible for developing science and technology policy.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. The angle from which I propose to address the Bill is slightly different from that of previous speakers. Most problems are addressed by the establishment of a new State body or agency. The time has come for us to ask ourselves why we need a proliferation of State bodies and agencies. During the late 1980s a concerted effort was made to rationalise this area. However, in the meantime three new organisations. Forfás, Forbairt and IDA Ireland, have grown out of one organisation. The initial decision to establish these agencies arose from the recommendations in the Culliton report on industrial development. It is time we questioned the significance of that decision. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle may say I am going off at a tangent but I am focusing on the proliferation of State agencies and bodies.

There has been record growth in the economy in recent years. Yet statistics illustrate that this growth has not been converted into worthwhile jobs. We must ask ourselves if growth in the economy would have materialised if we had left the industrial development structure as it was prior to the establishment of Forfás, Forbairt and IDA Ireland. What tangible contribution have they made to growth in the economy? The reality is that the difficult fiscal decisions taken in the late 1980s led to the growth in the economy.

The failure to create jobs is exercising the minds of the Government, the Minister for Enterprise and Employment and his Minister of State. There must be some reason there has not been a translation of growth in the economy into much needed jobs. What are the underlying factors preventing this?

The findings of a recent study of the economic environment for businesses North and South carried out for the Small Firms Association by one of the most reputable economic study groups in the country show that there is a greater prospect of achieving profitability, success and sustainable development in Newry than in Dundalk in my constituency. What are the reasons for this? Why are the comparative costs much higher on this side of the Border?

Why has the political establishment shied away from tackling the problem of job creation? I am not pretending that there is a panacea, but if costs, many of which are imposed by the State, were brought under control successfully, job creation might be accelerated. I apologise for going off on a tangent, but this relates to the proliferation of State bodies and agencies.

I am not advancing the argument that there should not be a national standards authority. To oversee, implement and supervise there is a need to have a structure in place, but is it necessary to establish a separate, autonomous authority to fulfil this role? The Minister of State will argue that it is of paramount importance that there is an independent adjudication, but it seems that whenever we are confronted with a problem we establish a new State body or agency to resolve it.

It may well be the case that it is not possible to put the new regime in place without establishing the new authority, but what consideration has been given to asking one of the existing organisations to fulfil this function of overseeing the attainment of standards in a range of economic activities, which clearly is essential if we are to keep pace with developments in Europe? This may prove more cost effective with lower administrative overheads. I am not suggesting that the attainment of standards can be achieved on a voluntary basis, but I wish to afford the Minister of State an opportunity to outline his thoughts on some of the points raised.

I wish to make a brief contribution to this important debate. My colleague, Deputy Séamus Brennan, when Minister of State, took the initial steps leading to this legislation. I subscribe to the view that we should get it right given that we are talking about the establishment of an autonomous body.

Some problems have been highlighted by the staff of the NSAI, which is under the aegis of Forfás. They have suggested that legal advice should be sought. My party's spokesperson, Deputy Mary O'Rourke, has suggested that an extra six months should be allowed to enable the proposed changes to be fully considered. This is an important step and it is vital that we get it right. There has been a worrying proliferation of State agencies, as I stated yesterday at the Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy at which the Estimates for the Department were discussed. I also stated that there is a need to separate the enterprise and labour affairs functions of the Department. I ask the Minister of State to seriously consider that suggestion.

This issue is of vital importance when it comes to matters such as the BSE-CJD scare on which there is a need to reassure the consumer whose interests should be addressed in this Bill. I ask the Minister of State to accept that there is a need to enter into proper consultation over a six-month period.

There are approximately 200 agencies dealing with enterprise-related matters. There have been many discussions on the roles these agencies play and the way they overlap and interchange. My colleague, Deputy Séamus Kirk, has questioned the need for the NSAI, but if we can get it right, it is worth doing.

It is important that we bring with us the staff, who feel management has gone over their heads in dealing with the European Union. They have an important role to play and will be centrally involved. It is appropriate, given that much time and effort have been devoted to the preparation of this Bill, that their concerns should be allayed.

Bearing in mind that this proposal was first made during the tenure of office of the Fianna Fáil-Labour Government, we are not opposing it for the sake of it. We listened to what people had to say. We are asking the Minister of State, at a minimum, to allow extra time. Much has been said by my colleagues about the food industry in particular and the need for proper scrutiny. The question of labelling has been dealt with by the French authorities. The Government should handle the issue with great care.

In dealing with other legislation the Minister of State accepted practical and sensible suggestions by Members on this side of the House. He should do the same now and allow an extra six months as it will be worth the effort.

I thank Deputies from all sides of the House for their very constructive contributions. The main issue I must address is the necessity for the NSAI to be established as a separate body. I reject the notion that this legislation is informed by any unthinking approach instigated by the management of the NSAI to create another State agency to improve the prospects of a few. As I pointed out at some length in my speech, the rationale for this Bill is a serious one, dictated by the need to protect the integrity of the certification service provided. I have personally considered in some depth advice from a range of authoritative sources on the need to establish NSAI as an autonomous legal entity. I started out with some reservations and had the issue thoroughly investigated. I concluded this course is by far the most effective in terms of ensuring that the status and role of NSAI is enhanced and that the independence of the service which it provides could not now, or in the future, be called into question.

Deputy O'Rourke referred to the concerns of NSAI staff, as did Deputies Ryan, Upton and Kitt. I have had several meetings with the representatives of the staff and explained in considerable detail the need for this legislation to protect their interests and to remove current constraints on the growth and advancement of the organisation. I delayed processing the legislation because of the gravity with which I took the arguments they made to me. That is the only motivation behind this Bill and provision for the maintenance of all the benefits and conditions which NSAI staff currently enjoy is specifically written into the text of the Bill. In addition, I am making provision for representatives of staff interests to have places as of right on the board of the agency. This has not been the case to date and its advent will provide further assurances to staff in the knowledge that they will be a direct party to all decisions which the board will make in the future. This will add a significant new dimension to the balance of the board and give a fuller recognition to the rights and responsibilities of all who work in the NSAI.

I suspect there will be time on Committee Stage to deal with many of the arguments made during this Stage. On Deputy O'Rourke's point about the £1 million imposition as the cost of this decision, there is no basis for that figure. Whatever the cost — it has not been assessed — it will be marginal. There is merely a transfer of functions involved and no cost of that order is envisaged. I do not wish now to deal with Deputy Upton's remarks on the future of science and technology policy. I accept the importance he attaches to the role of our STI capability in terms of developing a competitive economy here. I will come back to those arguments on Committee Stage.

On Deputy Kirk's point about the proliferation of agencies — a point also made by Deputy O'Rourke — and why there is not a normal correlation between the superior growth rates we are experiencing in this economy and those of other EU member states, that argument had substance in the past, but that is not the case any more. If we look at the performance over the last couple of years or so, a more normal relationship is beginning to be established between immensely respectable growth and the rate of job creation coming on stream.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 60; Níl, 34.

  • Ahearn, Theresa.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Bhreathnach, Niamh.
  • Bree, Declan.
  • Broughan, Tommy.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Burton, Joan.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Dukes, Alan M.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Fitzgerald, Brian.
  • Fitzgerald, Eithne.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gallagher, Pat (Laois-Offaly).
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • Lynch, Kathleen.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Sheehan, P. J.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Upton, Pat.
  • Walsh, Eamon.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Fox, Mildred.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Keaveney, Cecilia.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McDaid, James.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Woods, Michael.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies J. Higgins and B. Fitzgerald; Níl, Deputies D. Ahern and Callely.
Question declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I declare the Bill read a Second Time in accordance with Standing Order 94 (2). I understand it is intended to refer the Bill to the Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy.

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