Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 14 May 1996

Vol. 465 No. 3

Private Members' Business. - Establishment of Regional Education Boards: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Martin on Thursday, 9 May 1996:

That Dáil Éireann rejects the proposal of the Minister for Education to establish ten Regional Boards of Education as outlined in the White Paper on Education and calls on the Minister for Education to:

— recognise generously the very positive role played by Vocational Education Committees in the evolution and development of Irish education;

— give a commitment to the House to retain and develop a modernised vocational education committee system; and

— establish fora of education on a county by county basis to develop a co-ordinated and co-operative approach to education provision in each county.

Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

"Dáil Éireann welcomes the establishment of education boards on the basis set out in the Government's White Paper on Education,Charting Our Education Future, and

— recognises generously the very positive role played by vocational education committees in the evolution and development of Irish education;

— supports the retention and development of a modernised vocational education committee system, within the new education boards structure, on the basis set out in the White Paper; and

— supports the principle of community partnership which will underpin the composition and operation of boards of management in every school and the education boards in every region."

—(Minister for Education).

Mr. Foley

I wish to share my time with my colleague, Deputy Hilliard, and Independent Members. I congratulate my colleagues Deputies Martin, Coughlan and Flood on tabling this important motion.

In Kerry we have two successful vocational education committees, County Kerry Vocational Education Committee and Tralee vocational education committee. My contribution will be parochial and I will deal first with the response of County Kerry Vocational Education Committee to the Government's White Paper on Education.

In the course of an extensive debate on the White Paper on the future of Irish education the committee evaluated the Government's proposal in the context of its area of responsibility and agreed that the keynote of its response was the rejection of regional education boards as suitable vehicles for educational reform. The committee considered the proposed boards to be incapable of discharging the functions assigned to them and of meeting the Government's expressed commitment to the democratic management of education at local level. Their establishment would effectively eradicate the capacity of vocational education committees to continue with the important work they were doing without any guarantee of an adequate replacement.

In the course of the discussion members expressed their concern that an opportunity to creat democratic, effective and accountable local education bodies of an integrated nature was being missed while vocational education committees were losing their capacity to function.

The establishment of a regional board in Cork to cater for the Kerry area was seen as a continuation of regional policies which had worked to the detriment of County Kerry and other areas and was contrary to the majority view of the county that County Kerry needed its own institutions and its own direct avenues to national sources of current and capital funding. The county area was adverted to as the maximum desirable area for any local education board and the continuation or creation of other entities of a lesser area would be a matter for special consideration.

County Kerry vocational education committee members were further concerned at the uncertainty created over the long delay in publishing the Green Paper on Education and the absence of a definite timetable for action on the White Paper proposals. A democratic local body was suggested to manage education and the experience in County Kerry with the vocational education committee was such that members were confident that it was the proper area for future organisation. It was felt a county based local education management body with a range of functions and powers, outlined for regional authorities in the White Paper, would form a natural progression in the integration of the work of vocational education committees with that currently organised by other authorities.

The Kerry committee, which has experience of providing education for adults, young travellers, those with literacy problems and in meeting community education needs, was likely to be devalued in the context of a regional organisation and the role of the committee was destined to be reduced to that of a powerless sub-committee. There was a strong commitment to a county based educational authority which would build on the foundation laid by the vocational education committees and the powers and remit of such a body would be the primary concern rather than any consideration related to title.

The view that the IVEA should have defended the status quo for the sake of its schools and to show its absolute opposition to local education boards was strongly expressed. The committees' schools had and continued to deliver important education and social services in a climate where the needs of the underprivileged had been especially acknowledged, but the future of the schools was uncertain. It was felt that amalgamations would be the order of the day and committees would no longer be in a position to support their schools effectively. It was also felt that the structural reform of Irish education should not be perceived or dealt with as a political issue.

Regarding Tralee vocational education committee, since the publication of the 1992 Green Paper, Education for a Changing World, that body has reviewed its policy on education structures on a number of occasions. This process has been undertaken in conjunction with its representative organisation, the IVEA, and with its neighbouring vocational education committees in Cork county and city and in County Kerry.

Since 1902 the urban authority in Tralee has had a representative body reviewing planning and resources in education development in the municipal area. The existence of such an authority has been a major boost to the town and has been directly responsible for the development of foreign institutions and services there.

Mr. Hilliard

A number of pillars are set out in the White Paper such as sensitivity to needs of local and regional communities, value of further involvement of local and regional communities, a desire to release the Department of Education from detailed delivery of services and the need for co-ordination to satisfy the needs of schools.

The proposals to introduce regional education boards is a direct contradiction of the rationale laid down by the Minister in the White Paper. Given that it is proposed that one board will represent Tipperary, Waterford, Kilkenny, Carlow and Wexford, what local community will that board represent? More than 100 local representatives will compete for four or five board places. Is it the Minister's intention to disregard the opinions of local public representatives?

How will teacher representations be decided? Will they be decided on a county or school basis or in some other way? Such boards will be distant, out of touch, irrelevant and a waste of taxpayers' money.

How can the Minister justify a two province, five-county board? A board for the counties of Louth, Meath, Cavan and Monaghan will represent more than 70,000 students and 100,000 parents. Who will represent the Mount Hanover three teacher school near Duleek in County Meath or the Cartown four teacher school near Termonfeckin in County Louth?

In Scotland there are 12 regional boards and legislation was introduced recently to increase that to 32 boards. In Ireland we are going against the tide and destroying a long established and proven board structure, the vocational education committee.

In Britain reform legislation is introduced year after year to reduce the role of the local education authorities, yet we are prepared to accept the worst elements of foreign boards, their large size and remoteness, high costs and ineffectiveness.

The proposal to regionalise Irish education has been discussed for many years. Its main proponents are academics and senior officials in the Department of Education and their motives are praiseworthy. They wished to find a mechanism to bring together the primary and various post-primary strands of Irish education. The Minister, in proposing ten regional boards, has accepted the advice and theories of the Irish educational hierarchy to copy systems of other countries.

In America, Canada, Britain and elsewhere in Europe educational board structures exist to administer primary, post-primary and adult education systems. The structure of these boards provide that a chief education officer, or chief executive officer in Canada, a superintendent in America and a director of education in Britain administer the schools of the board area on behalf of the board. In America there are 15,000 boards with the majority of them administering areas of student population ranging from 2,000 to 5,000 students. This does not compare with our policy of unwisely seeking to adopt the most unsatisfactory and unworkable elements of educational boards. We are opting for large board areas without a record of educational co-operation, harmony of need or a distinct request for board representation on such a scale. We should build on our strengths and not weaken our structures by copying those adopted in neighbouring countries.

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Mr. Currie)

I wish to share my time with Deputies John Browne and Eric Byrne.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is satisfactory.

Mr. Currie

The Government's decision to establish education boards on the basis set out in the White Paper represents an enlightened and forward looking approach which will command the support of all those who have a genuine interest in the development of our education system. Members will not need to be reminded of the value which people attach to their education system. Ever since the foundation of the State, the quality of our education services has been one of our key successes and strengths.

However, we cannot afford to be complacent. As we approach the 21st century our children are emerging into a world which bears little resemblance to that experienced by previous generations. They will face new demands with which they must be able to cope and will be presented with new opportunities which they must be able to grasp. We have an obligation to ensure that they are equipped to face this new world with confidence in their ability to succeed. Nowhere is this obligation more critical than in the need to ensure that they get the quality of education which they require and deserve.

The Government's White Paper, Charting our Education Future, is intended to put our education system on a modern and dynamic footing. Its objective is to meet the needs of the next millennium and ensure that every student will have a fulfilling educational experience at every stage in a lifetime of learning.

To achieve these aims we need structures which are capable of responding to the rapidly changing demands of today's society. We need a system which empowers local and regional communities to play an active part in the development of our education services. We also need to release the Department of Education from its involvement in the detailed delivery of the service so that it can revert to its proper role of developing and monitoring the education system at national level.

The regional education boards will play a key role in facilitating these developments. By being based in the regions they are intended to serve they will be close to and alert to local needs. They will be in a position to be more responsive to local needs and will bring greater transparency to a system which, for too long, has been highly centralised and remote. These important developments will be welcomed by all who have the interests of our education system at heart.

My colleague the Minister for Education and others have outlined to the House the major practical benefits which will accrue to our education system through the establishment of the regional education boards and the implementation of the other elements of the White Paper and I do not propose to cover this ground again. However, as Minister of State with special responsibility for children with special educational needs, I have a particular interest in ensuring that these measures are successful. I say this because for the first time in the history of the State the Government in its White Paper has shown the necessary commitment and developed the necessary strategies to ensure that children with special needs will finally be given the recognition and support which they deserve. Under the White Paper each school will be responsible for presenting a school plan which will be required to set out its policy on student assessment. This policy will provide for the identification of students with special needs and set out the school's proposals for dealing with these needs, in co-operation with the parents of the children concerned.

Details of each student with a disability will be entered in a national data base, to facilitate the planning of provision for all students with disabilities. Each education board will have a statutory responsibility for all students in its region who have been entered on the national data base. The White Paper envisages a continuum of provision which will allow special needs children access to a full range of special support services in their areas. Services will range from special schools, through special classes, to full integration, if necessary on a supported basis. A further key element is that children will be facilitated in moving between the various support services as their particular needs evolve.

A number of ordinary primary schools will be designated by the education boards as centres where students with particular disabilities may be educated. The existing special schools will fulfil an expanded role in dealing with a variety of disabilities and operating as regional resource centres. Each student with a special need will be assigned to the nearest appropriate special school in the region, regardless of whether he or she attends that school. If it is decided that attendance at an ordinary school would be most appropriate, the student and his or her parents will still have access to the back-up supports available in the special school.

The White Paper also provides for a comprehensive scheme of assessment which will facilitate the early identification and ongoing monitoring of special needs children. This will allow for timely identification of difficulties and appropriate intervention. I have no doubt that all these developments will be warmly welcomed by the parents of special needs children. The fact that those parents will also be given a voice in the development of local services in their area will be a further encouragement.

I have no doubt also that the regional education board structure is essential to the successful implementation of the multifaceted response which is now being put in place in the special needs area. The case for devolving responsibility for education services to regional education boards is nowhere more convincing than in relation to special needs children.

By their very nature, these children require a system which is sympathetic and flexible and, above all, capable of responding to needs which are changing and evolving. It is no longer a tenable proposition to expect the current centralised system to display these attributes. Our education service has grown in size and complexity to a point where the current centralised arrangements have simply outlived their time and effectiveness. It is no longer acceptable that some of the most vulnerable children in society should be deprived of an adequate education service because our capacity to respond is being strangled in a great centralised bureaucracy. We owe it to our children to act now.

The School Attendance Act, 1926, and subsequent amendments to it oblige parents to ensure that children attend school from age six up to age 15 unless there is a reasonable excuse, for example, through illness, or where the child is receiving suitable elementary education, other than by attending a national or other suitable school. One of my first actions on my appointment as Minister of State at the Department of Education, was to set up the Task Force on Truancy. At the same time the process of reviewing the existing legislation in this area is currently under way in the Department. Taking account of these findings, the education boards will be given statutory powers and responsibilities in regard to monitoring and enforcement of school attendance.

The regional education boards, catering for smaller areas and being more alert to the needs of children in those areas, will be in a position to provide a much more efficient and responsive service to children with special needs. My experience as Minister of State at the Departments of Education, Health and Justice has also convinced me that by devolving responsibility to the regions we will achieve a much greater degree of co-ordination between the various agencies involved in providing support services at local level. I also see major opportunities for a much more efficient and effective use of resources under the education board structure. It seems infinitely preferable to have decisions regarding resource deployment in a particular area made by people based in that area and familiar with its educational needs. The present situation where decisions of this nature are made at national level is no longer tenable. I have no doubt that the education boards will ensure a more responsive approach for the future.

I take this opportunity to endorse the very valuable role played by the vocational education committees in the evolution of our education system since their foundation. While I appreciate some of the concerns being expressed at the proposed rationalisation of the vocational education committee sector, I am convinced that the product of this exercise will be a leaner and more efficient structure which is better equipped to cater for today's needs.

The education boards will have the task of planning and supporting education services in the regions but I have no doubt that the vocational education committees will continue to be central to a successful delivery of the service. Indeed, I am convinced that the experience and expertise which is encompassed in the vocational education committee sector will continue to prove an invaluable asset to our education system in the years ahead.

I commend the amendment to the House.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Tá mé buíoch den Aire. Is é seo an chéad uair go bhfaca mé Aire ar chosa in airde sa Dáil. Bhí eagla orm go dtitfeadh sé ar a cheann. Caithfimid glacadh leis go bhfuil athraithe ag teacht sa saol atá inniu ann. Tá athraithe ag teacht sa chóras oideachais freisin. Tá feabhas agus fás ann chomh maith agus tá i bhfad níos mó daoine ar scoil anois ná mar a bhí na blianta ó shin. Is dóca go bhfuil an córas oideachais féin ag dul i bhfeabhas. Tá athraithe móra tagtha air ach caithfimid glacadh leis go bhfuil gá le córas nua ach go minic ní bhíonn an córas nua chomh maith leis an sean-chóras. Toisc nach bhfuil ciall ceannaithe againn fós ní féidir linn a rá fós an mbeidh na Coistí Réigiúnda seo chomh maith leis an sean-chóras. Ach caithfimid glacadh le anois go dtí go mbeidh an ciall ceannaithe sin againn agus go mbeidh fhios againn cén toradh a bheidh orthu.

The Minister and the Opposition agree on one thing at least, that Dáil Éireann "recognises generously the very positive role played by vocational education committees in the evolution and development of Irish education". I compliment the vocational education committees which, since 1930, have done much for education. I hope the present generation of members and teachers will not take umbrage when I say that 30 to 40 years ago vocational teachers did some marvellous work, especially in rural areas where, at night classes, farmers were given a detailed account of scientific farming methods. Woodwork classes were also provided. They did much to brighten the lives of rural people. I recall the role played by them, when I was young, in Macra Na Féirme in encouraging people to take part in public speaking at a time there were fewer opportunities to pursue education. The present generation of members and teachers are operating in a more sophisticated environment and at a higher level.

I pay a special compliment to the chief executive officers who seem to be a race apart in the education sector, they are superb at their job. It would be wrong to say they are all perfect, but there is no doubt that they have a superb attitude. On occasion the meetings of vocational education committees are very short because they have everything worked out in advance and streamlined.

The Minister said that the vocational education committees are not in any danger. She stated:

It has been suggested that there is a plan to eliminate the vocational education committees. Some people have attempted to portray the White Paper proposals as an attempt to do away with the vocational education committees entirely or to deprive them of their powers and functions. Quite simply, this is not true. The White Paper states that the vocational education committees will be retained and will function as providers of education within the framework established nationally by the Minister for Education and elaborated regionally by each education board. Exchequer funding and support for vocational education committees will be channelled through the education boards.

From what the Minister said, it seems as if the vocational education committees will be retained and funded by the regional education boards rather than by the Department of Education as heretofore. This may ease some of the difficulties which exist. I would like to see the vocational education committees continue to play a major role as they know what is involved and have the ciall ceannaithe.

There are question marks hanging over the regional education boards. We have health boards, development boards and so on. Will it be easy to blame the regional education boards for the failure to provide money when the blame lies with the Minister and the Government? Will they be a soft target? I am not supposed to adopt a negative attitude on any of these issues on this side of the House, but would like to think that the boards will be provided with all the money that they need. Perhaps that is only a dream.

I accept that the idea that every problem should be dealt with by the Department is outdated. Those who have to deal with members of its staff, whether in Tullamore, Athlone or Dublin, invariably find that they are run off their feet. Without giving too many details, in one particular case the member of staff involved was near to exhaustion by the time the problem was resolved having worked throughout the Christmas period processing files. That is not good enough. From that point of view, it would be a good thing if regional education boards took some of the responsibility, provided they are given adequate resources.

A previous speaker mentioned the possibility of a trans-provincial board for Ulster and Leinster.

Miss Coughlan

It would never work.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): What would he think of a trans-Shannon constituency where Roscommon and, I think, Longford are separated by the Shannon?

Ms Keogh

The Deputy is bad on geography.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): That would present a bigger problem. I am sure that no matter what grouping one decides on for the regional education boards it will be the wrong one, but I hope they will be impartial. Under the vocational education committees a small school at the far end of a county is treated fairly. Will it be treated in the same way and receive a fair crack of the whip from a regional education board which may think that big is beautiful, rather than the other way around? There will, therefore, be advantages and disadvantages.

The Minister mentioned that the vocational education committees will be responsible for the second-level schools under their remit, their ownership, the employment of staff and the appointment of boards of management and will continue to provide vocational education and training, including post leaving certificate courses, adult and continuing education, the arts in education, the operation of outdoor education centres and so on. It appears, therefore, that they will be retained and operate as heretofore. That is to be welcomed.

Mr. E. Byrne

I am fascinated by the series of U-turns taken weekly by Fianna Fáil on Private Members' Business.

Miss Coughlan

The Deputy is just jealous.

Mr. E. Byrne

Being in Opposition can have an amazing effect on parties.

Miss Coughlan

The Deputy's party was in Opposition long enough.

Mr. E. Byrne

In the Green Paper published by Deputy Séamus Brennan when Minister for Education, Fianna Fáil suggested the introduction of league tables similar to those introduced in Britain by the Tory Party. Under such a system schools would be judged in isolation and rated according to arbitrary criteria. If Deputy Brennan had his way, we might be facing the same crisis of confidence among teachers, parents and pupils being experienced in the UK.

When Fianna Fáil had a majority in Government it promised an intermediate tier for management of first and second level education, but now that it is in Opposition it opposed the Government's proposal to establish an intermediate tier for all schools. Fianna Fáil rejects the idea of an intermediate tier in all 4,000 schools not currently under the vocational education committees. In rejecting the ten proposed education boards, it is calling for about 34 illdefined "fora". The seeming lack of logic and reason that has beset that party in Opposition is baffling. This Fianna Fáil motion is not about reason or logic——

Miss Coughlan

It is about money.

Mr. E. Byrne

——it is about playing politics with education and with the future of our children. As Fianna Fáil states in its motion — I support this concept — the vocational education committees have played a very positive role in education. Their organisation not only of adult education but of innovative schemes such as the much admired Youthreach Programme and VTOS made an invaluable contribution to education.

I am proud to remind my colleagues from all parties that I was happily employed by the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee for a number of years and saw at first hand the incredible and admirable dedication of the teaching staff, from teacher grade up to chief executive officer level. I do not cease to be amazed at the social conscience that prevails throughout the vocational education committee system. As can be seen from the Youthreach Programme and the vocational training and opportunity schemes, the teachers involved do exceptional work.

The vocational education committee system however, is not perfect. Neither parents nor teachers are adequately represented. There is need to ensure vocational education committee structures are suited to the needs not only of today but also of tomorrow. Education cannot take place in isolation from the local communities served by our educational facilities. The education boards proposed by the Government will facilitate an effective partnership among those with an interest in education, whether at national, regional or community level. They will make it easier to co-ordinate and realise national educational objectives by ensuring that community strengths are mobilised to complement national action.

The need for an intermediate body between the Department of Education and the 4,000 schools has been very obvious. At present every grant, sanction of a teacher appointment and minor query must be dealt with by the Department, which is absurd. Instead of taking a broad, long-term view of education, the Department has to deal with bureaucratic minutiae. It is interesting that we are having this debate on education because we will very soon have a debate along similar lines on the Eastern Health Board.

Fianna Fáil, even in its muddled way, seems to agree on the need for some intermediate structure. It wants to retain the vocational education committees, but it is not clear on how many should be retained. What does the phrase "a modernised vocational education committee system" mean? Does it indicate that Fianna Fáil wants a reduced number of vocational education committees or does it want to retain all 38 vocational education committees? It is also seeking so-called fora in every county. Assuming Fianna Fáil wants to retain all 38 vocational education committees and establish fora in each of the 34 county boroughs, it wants a total of 72 local education bodies.

Miss Coughlan

The Deputy should have been here last Thursday.

Mr. E. Byrne

While proposing 72 local education bodies, Fianna Fáil complains bitterly that resources are directed away from schools. Democratic Left has long argued for democratic administration at school and regional level. There are legitimate questions to be answered about the proposed education boards. For example, the questions of cost, democratic representation and the potential remoteness of some of the proposed boards need to be addressed. These questions can be resolved through the process of open debate and discussion under the White Paper. I hope in the interests of its constituents Fianna Fáil will make an informed and honest contribution to such a debate and will refrain from playing politics with the issue, as is typified by this motion on which we will vote tomorrow night.

Mr. B. Smith

I wish to share my time with Deputies Killeen, Kenneally and Morley.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sure that is satisfactory. Agreed.

Mr. B. Smith

Too often in recent years there have been instances of local public representatives being sidelined. The establishment of regional boards would further erode the role of the local public representative. Councillors and members of vocational education committees have worked diligently for years to improve the system of education. We must not forget the very valuable role they played in the provision of education at second level and subsequently at third level, particularly the establishment of colleges of technology and regional technical colleges. That structure provided access to third level education for many people who would otherwise have been deprived of it. Vocational education committees have been synonymous with the provision of adult education courses, the Youthreach Programme and the vocational training and opportunities schemes. All those courses provide essential and basic education and training for many young people.

The Minister for Education and her Department officials would be much better employed in rationalising the further education area and structuring courses and colleges within a proper regulatory system. Fortunately, the vast majority of post-leaving certificate programmes have been extremely successful. Vocational education committee officials and teachers are to be complimented on their initiative in providing courses to meet market demands. Many of the post-leaving certificate courses on offer are targeted at growth areas of the economy. The skills learned are essential to the economic sectors involved and improve substantially the employment potential of students. As well as being finely tuned to the market needs of the economy, the courses generally correspond with the predominant economic activities of the region. Unlike regional boards, local education structures would be able to respond to local needs and demands.

Approximately 90 per cent of students at the Cavan College of Further Studies obtain employment or go on to further education. That is an impressive achievement, I urge the Minister to have the whole area of further education properly structured and to give colleges such as Cavan formal recognition. Centres such as Cavan, which has a proven record and for whose courses there is a strong demand as evidenced by higher annual enrolments, should be established on a formal basis.

Allied to the unanswerable case for a centre such as Cavan is the low participation by students from the Border counties in higher education. The regulation of post leaving certificate courses with regard to proper certification, the provision of courses on a specialised basis and the introduction of a maintenance grant system would help to eliminate many of the obstacles that restrict participation in further education. I instance tonight the case of post leaving certificate courses as the local committees were instrumental in providing education at this level to students who otherwise would not have had the opportunity to gain entry directly to a third level college.

Mr. Killeen

Fáiltím roimh an deis seo cuidiú leis an bhfógra tairiscinte atá curtha ar an gclár ag mo chomh-Theachtaí. Aontaím go láidir leis an méid atá ráite acu faoin gcostas agus faoin easpa fiúntais atá ag baint leis na boird réigiúnda atá le bunú. Tá an ceart acu a bheith buartha fúthu agus iarraim go láidir ar an Aire gan dul ar aghaidh leo.

Before I came into this House I spent 20 years in primary education, almost all of that time as a principal. I also spent 15 years on County Clare Vocational Education Committee, three years as chairman, and served on management committees at school, community college and third level. During that time I came to appreciate the value of the vocational education committee system which effectively was an intermediate tier at county level.

The proposed diminution of vocational education committees and their role has rightly angered democratically elected local councillors. Many of them, as said by previous speakers, were to the forefront in bringing education to the disadvantaged and the underprivileged, long before it became fashionable. The vocational education committees and their members were the true pioneers in developing education and, while I am sure he did not mean to, Deputy Eric Byrne paid an extraordinary compliment to Fianna Fáil and to its role in developing education.

It is a grave mistake to relegate the vocational education committees to mere subcommittees of the regional structure. Education needs an independent local dimension representative of all the partners in education — parents, teachers, local councillors, management at the various levels and the Department of Education. The regional model does not have the capacity to deliver an equitable service at local level.

The education partners in County Clare came together in 1992 and proposed a county structure of which the Minister is aware. That was quite an unusual development at the time and a number of other counties have since carefully examined it as a model. The county structure has a number of advantages. It is an ideal forum to co-ordinate educational services, particularly at second level, in manageable units at county level with representation from all interested sectors. The county is the recognised traditional unit for the provision of realistic mechanisms for co-ordination and delivery of services.

Local co-ordination has already been successful in many counties where vocational education committees and religious management have taken initiatives for the common good. If these managements were formally united as equal partners, major development and rationalisation possibilities would be feasible. The manageable county scheme ensures equity in the delivery of services to avoid the marginalisation of the disadvantaged. This was referred to by a number of speakers on both sides of the House and it is an issue about which we must all be concerned.

There are a huge range of services which have become an inherent part of the education system or, if they have not, they should in the near future. One of these is the psychological service. The inspectorial and advisory service should be available at county level. There is a major role in curriculum development, inservice training and research and development which should be conducted at an intermediate rather than a national level. Adult education and training for those under 18 who have left formal education, school transport, student grants and scholarships, career advice, outdoor education and youth work can best be dealt with at county level.

The role of educational planning, the location and type of school, rationalisation, where that arises — unfortunately, population trends dictate that will arise more frequently — the introduction of new programmes and the monitoring and evaluation of services provided are all matters which can be dealt with more satisfactorily at county rather than at regional level.

The question of budget allocation is likely to become a thorny one and Deputy Browne mentioned the manner in which the regional structure at health board level has been a negative factor in this regard. The question of educational standards and quality will always pose some difficulty and can be dealt with constructively at county level. In addition, there will also be EU initiatives from which we can benefit. I argue strongly for the continuation of a county system of education and bringing all the partners together in developing that as the intermediate tier.

Mr. Kenneally

I support the motion. If we were to say that the vocational education committees, which were established in 1930, operate now as they did then, the Minister would be correct in saying they should be abolished, but that is not the case. The vocational education committees have evolved since that time and they have met the various needs as they have perceived them. They have done that in a number of ways including the development of youth programmes, the practical training they now provide, VTOS courses, adult education, post leaving certificate courses, participation in EU education programmes and so on.

I visited a school in my own area not long ago and I was amazed at the various courses being provided. They were totally different from the courses provided when I was going to school. That is an indication of the way the vocational education committees have responded to changing needs. I cannot understand the reason the Department of Education has such a problem with the vocational education committees whose programmes have succeeded despite, rather than because of, the Department of Education. For that reason I believe we should devolve more powers to the vocational education committees.

In my area it is proposed that the education boards will cover five counties— south Tipperary, Waterford, Wexford, Kilkenny and Carlow. I wonder if the vocational education committee programmes can operate effectively over such a wide area from one regional office. The areas to which I am referring covers 379 primary schools and 87 post-primary schools; approximately 100,000 students.

Has this proposal been properly thought out? For example, there are approximately 150,000 parents from whom to choose two representatives for the new health education board. How can two people be chosen from such a huge number? What are the costs involved? Nobody has outlined those to date. How will the public representatives on the board be chosen? We have not yet been told that either.

I agree with our spokesperson, Deputy Martin, with regard to the role played by public representatives in the past. We must remember that those representatives are accountable to the public and I find it extraordinary that recent reports have recommended that that system be abolished. Those who are democratically elected are the only people ultimately responsible to the public. The proposal is for additional ministerial appointments which ultimately means more Government influence, but more powers should be devolved to county level rather than increasing the power of the Department of Education. I strongly support the motion.

Mr. Morley

I complement my colleagues in the Fianna Fáil Party for tabling the motion and ensuring that this important development in education is fully debated. I welcome the opportunity to make a brief contribution. The White Paper Charting Our Educational Future proposes the establishment of ten regional boards of education which will be introduced in the phased manner to act as an intermediate local tier between the school boards of management and the Department of Education at primary and secondary level. It also states that the Government has decided to carry out legislative reform for the rationalisation of the vocational education committee system. This will inevitably mean the abolition of a number of vocational education committees, following the report of the commission on school accommodation, when this comes to hand.

The Minister praises and commends the vocational education committees, and rightly so, for their services to education since their foundation in 1930 to the present day. They have done sterling work and proved themselves responsive to the needs of the community at all levels in the education field. They have risen to every challenge presented to them. Growth in the numbers of pupils from 68,000 in 1981 to 92,000 in 1992-93 bears testimony to the esteem in which their schools are held by the public and the efforts they have made to bring education to the people and extend their services.

They co-operated fully with the establishment of the regional technical colleges and community schools in the various locations in which they exist. They were a fundamental part of the educational infrastructure which underpinned these institutions. Any praise lavished on them by the Minister was richly and truly deserved. In her speech the Minister goes on to say that the vocational education committees will actually be strengthened for the future by this process of rationalisation. Apart altogether from the questionable wisdom of having two intermediate tiers between the boards of management of the various schools and the Department of Education, it is difficult to see how the vocational education committees can be strengthened in the new regime, which transfers so many of their functions such as co-ordinating adults in continued education, vocational education and training, outdoor education centres to the new boards, which will also have a co-ordinating role in publicly funded youth and sport activities. Those vocational education committees that remain will have to report all plans, budget programmes, etc., to the new board for approval. Clearly it is intended that the remaining vocational education committees will be under the jurisdiction of regional education boards. Obviously they cannot survive as they have done to date under the new dispensation and their powers, remit and resources will be seriously curtailed as a result of the new policy outlined in the White Paper.

The Minister said we need new structures that are responsive to the needs of the regions and representative of community interests and not remote from them. I accept the need and the desirability for decentralisation but the proposed new boards are too big geographically, with perhaps the exception of Dublin City, too unwieldy and will not effectively reflect community interests, promote partnership in education and encourage participation of parents and communities. They seem to be modelled on the health boards which we debated today on the Health (Amendment) Bill, 1996. We also heard much criticism regarding their size, unwieldiness and remoteness from the community. Education is the priority of the community. People spend much time involved in education between going to school themselves and watching their children go to school. They know much more about education and are more willing to get involved than in health matters. If they regard health boards as too big and unwieldy they will regard the proposed new educational boards in the same way.

In my constituency in the west there are only four major hospitals dealing with health boards. We have 630 schools. If the Minister is going ahead with the proposal, the new boards should be based on the vocational education committee system where there is already in existence an infrastructure based on the county which — we all know from our sporting and football experiences — demands loyalty and would have a greater chance of encouraging participation by the local community. Also the local community would feel it was closer to them. In regard to the establishment of the new boards, there is the question of costs which are bound to be considerable. That was also one of the criticisms of the health boards when they were set up — that costs escalated immediately. If extra resources are available they should be put into essential and basic services in the existing education system. For example, a couple of weeks ago I asked the Minister when a large number of primary schools in County Mayo could expect the services of a remedial teacher. The Minister told me she had no resources at her disposal and could not tell me when this essential service would be made available to the schools. If extra resources are available they should be spent on essential services in the existing system.

Ms Keogh

I would like to move my amendment which relates——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy may not move an amendment as the Minister's amendment is before the House but she may refer to her amendment in her speech.

Ms Keogh

I tabled an amendment to the motion, not because I disagree with the motion tabled by Fianna Fáil but because there is another dimension to education which we should stress. It deals with the quality of educational qualifications of young people and the fact that young people are leaving school early and going straight into long term unemployment.

The establishment of a network of regional education boards was mooted in the Government White Paper on Education, published last year. This proposal is the latest move in what might be termed the "quangoisation" of politics. There is widespread recognition of the need to reform our structures of Government. We are one of the most heavily centralised states in Europe with an inordinate amount of power concentrated in Dublin. A typical example of this is the way in which school buses are run. The services in every parish are run by a State company based in Dublin. If we want to devolve power, a structure already exists in the form of local government. There are democratically elected councils and corporations which are more than anxious to assume additional responsibilities from central Government. For the most part we have ignored this structure of local democracy. Indeed, we have increasingly opted for the creation of quangos— State funded boards that provide the illusion of local autonomy while maintaining centralised control. We have hundreds of these quangos populating the administrative landscapes. There are quangos for rural development, local development, urban renewal, tourism and fisheries and we are now to have ten new boards in the field of education.

The creation of ten new regional education boards is unnecessary. The new bodies will introduce another layer of bureaucracy to the administration of education and the cost of running the whole system will increase as a result of this new initiative. We all recognise there will be no administrative savings in the Department of Education. The whole central edifice will remain intact. The new bodies will not supersede or complement the existing vocational education committees. This means we will have two sets of local or regional educational bodies standing alongside each other in a system that will still be dominated by central Government.

In the White Paper the Minister indicated she would rationalise the vocational education committees. We have not seen detailed proposals in this regard other than the vague outline in the White Paper. I believe there is already confusion about that. The vocational education committee structure may not be perfect, and needs some degree of rationalisation, but it has provided a good vocational education service which has responded to the needs of local communities. The structure functioned with a minimum of bureaucracy, unlike the proposals which are being put forward by the Minister.

There is a list of innovative aspects of education which have come through the vocational education sector, such as the establishment of second chance education, literacy education, the development and support of youth structures and particularly PLCs which have revolutionised education for many young people.

The regional structure envisaged for the educational boards does not fit in with any of the regional structures already in existence. For instance, it is hard to understand why Dublin should be divided into two regions when it is a single region for all other planning purposes. All the indications are that bureaucracy will flourish under the new system. As envisaged by the White Paper, each board will have and executive director and a full-time staff. The director will be the day to day boss in all executive matters and there will be little or no democratic control of the educational process. Many of the groups involved in all-Irish schools believe their work will at worst be forgotten and at best be fragmented in the complexities of this new structure. Even before the new regional education boards are established, the White Paper mentions committees and sub-committees working under individual boards, commissioning reports and consultancy studies.

The White Paper provides no estimate of the cost of running this new bureaucracy; that is its missing chapter. From her evasive replies to questions on the issues, it appears the Minister has no idea how much it would cost to implement these proposals. During last week's debate there was speculation about this — I wonder how accurate is Deputy Couglan's guestimate of £25 million? Whatever the true figure, by the time each board has set up its headquarters, equipped its offices and hired its staff, the regionalisation of education administration is not likely to come cheap.

The growth in bureaucracy will not be confined to the new regional education boards. We are also to have a further education authority and a national certification authority as well as a teaching council. All these will be worthy bodies in their own right but would it not have been possible to come up with a more streamlined administrative system? The taxpayer will be left to pick up a substantial tab and money that could be better spent improving the quality of education will go to increase bureaucracy. Where will this end? It is difficult to see administrative logic in the arrangement. The new boards will undoubtedly create further scope for ministerial patronage in appointments but they will not do much to enhance the quality of our education service.

I moved the amendment because it is a pity that we are discussing bureaucracy and structures when we should be talking about education; there is much to be said about how our education system operates. The recent reports on educational disadvantage make disturbing reading. One study concluded that 26,000 students leave school every year officially classed as educationally disadvantaged. This means they have no recognised qualification of any sort, not even the junior certificate, and may have major problems with basic literacy and numeracy skills. Those 26,000 students represent 40 per cent of the annual cohort of school leavers. If the education system is failing to satisfy the basic needs of 40 per cent of its clients the State is getting poor value for the £1.6 billion spent on our schools every year.

There is a major social cost arising from the failings of our education system. It is well established that educational disadvantage translates into employment disadvantage and those without educational qualifications or the essential basic skills face an uphill task in finding jobs. The 1994 Labour Force Survey showed the unemployment rate for those who left school without qualifications was 45 per cent. Equally, of the long-term unemployed aged 35 and over, more than 60 per cent had no qualifications and 88 per cent had not achieved leaving certificate standard. Surveys of school leavers show that, for those without qualifications, the likelihood of gaining a job decreases over time. We have succeeded in creating a system which delivers disadvantaged school leavers straight into a life of long-term unemployment, with all its attendant problems. Education does not create jobs but it ensures everyone in society has a fair chance of securing the job opportunities which become available.

The danger of suffering educational disadvantage arises early in life. International research has shown that children who are delayed in their language development at age three have a 70 to 80 per cent chance of experiencing serious learning difficulties throughout their schooling and beyond. It is clear, therefore, that early experiences are vital in laying the foundation for success in later learning. This is a hobby horse of mine but it must be stressed — the lack of pre-school facilities means that children in more deprived areas may be permanently disadvantaged before they even enter the formal schooling system. This issue needs to be tackled far more urgently than the creation of new quangos. It is an area which falls into the cracks between the Department of Health and the Department of Education, with neither assuming its rightful responsibility.

Ms Bhreathnach

Not true — there is the early start programme.

Ms Keogh

I disagree with the Minister — there is a wide area which is not being addressed. I do not argue for a huge increase in spending or for the creation of new boards or layers of bureaucracy. With the expenditure of a relatively small amount, we could learn a great deal from what has been achieved in other countries. We should see what worked in other jurisdictions and look at the quality of our education, the provision of better pre-school facilities and direct funding of local community groups, encouraging them to use existing facilities.

It is also important to look at the school curriculum if we are to deal with educational disadvantage. Our present system is geared towards third level education. It has a strong academic orientation, the points system plays a dominant role and, while it serves many people well, it does not meet the needs of all our children. We need a stronger vocational element in the syllabus. We should consider including subjects like basic computer skills, and we should avoid training young people in outdated skills for which there is a declining demand in the work place.

There are many initiatives in our system which can be examined without expending any money. Giving vast sums to the bureaucratic nightmare which will be the regional education boards will not serve our education system well and will do nothing to improve its overall quality.

Mr. Hogan

I wish to share my time with Deputy Ring.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sure that is satisfactory and agreed.

Mr. Hogan

This is a timely motion which will clarify the issues concerning the establishment of regional education boards. This move comes as no surprise to me and to most Members who have kept a close watch on developments in education and the consultative process the Minister has engaged in over a long period.

Under the European model of drawing down money for various programmes during the period of the Structural Funds and after 1999, there will have to be more regionalisation of decision making. Similarly, Government policies will have to be discussed and decided more at the regional level than at the centre in order to draw down ESF funding for the vocational education sector, regional colleges, etc. There will be an onus on whatever Government is in office to demonstrate to the EU Commission that education functions are being devolved.

The Minister for Finance recently made the case to the EU that this country still needs substantial resources for education and training and he said we would focus on these areas after 1999 when the present round of Structural Funds is completed. He made a very cogent case to ensure that the young people who require training at second and third levels will have the resources and support from the EU to make inroads into unemployment. Education and training will give young people a better opportunity to get permanent employment.

I appreciate the great contribution of the vocational education committees to education. It has been indicated over the last few years that there would be a diminution in the responsibilities and powers of the vocational education committees. The Minister set out clearly in her statement to the recent vocational education committee congress and in the Dáil that the vocational education committees are here to stay. The Government has no plans to abolish vocational education or the vocational education committees. There are plans for greater co-ordination between secondary, community and voluntary schools and to bring everybody together to see what policies and structures are required regionally.

In the south-east region there are two regional technical colleges, one in Carlow and another in Waterford, which aspire to university status. Those regional technical colleges offer an outreach programme to towns such as Kilkenny and Wexford which have no third level colleges. The Department of Education should not deny those regional technical colleges the opportunity to set up outreach facilities and courses. There seems to have been some unease recently about Carlow regional technical college's courses in Kilkenny city. It appears there may be resistance from the Department of Education to the future development of these facilities because it may have had representations from another area. I would like the regional technical colleges to be allowed to exercise greater autonomy to provide extra third level courses in surrounding areas.

The concept of regional education authorities is a logical extension of the regionalisation that has come about in health, agriculture and other sectors of the economy. A substantial removal of powers to regional and central levels would not fit with the devolution of power from the centre. The fears expressed about the competing tiers that may develop are unfounded. I am glad the Minister has given the necessary assurances recently.

Vocational education committees will continue to act as statutory committees and will provide services in the areas of Vocational education and training, adult and continuing education, the arts and the operation of outdoor education centres. It was stated that the introduction of the education Bill proposed by the Minister would downgrade the importance of vocational education. The White Paper on Education actively and explicitly recognises the importance of vocational education and training. It sets out a comprehensive and detailed policy aproach for the future development of vocational education and training. I hope the Minister will continue her support for the concept of vocational education and the vocational education committees which have done an excellent job throughout the years. The regional education boards will be the co-ordinating bodies for the good work done in the vocational, secondary and regional college sectors.

Mr. Ring

I wish to share my time with Deputy Broughan.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Ring

I listened to Deputy Morley with amazement. He referred to remedial teachers; I am sure all Deputies would like to see a remedial teacher or two in every school. I compliment the Minister for the unprecedented funding she has put into County Mayo.

Miss Coughlan

Who is going to win that seat?

Mr. Ring

When Fianna Fáil was in Government I went to many public meetings about schools in County Mayo. Those days are over. Not all the problems are resolved but we are making progress thanks to the Minister.

Miss Coughlan

The Deputy has no problems then.

Mr. Ring

The other task I would like the Minister to undertake is in relation to the regional technical college in Castlebar. I would like her to make it autonomous. The people of County Mayo believe she is doing a good job and have confidence in her. I believe in the vocational education committees. They have a proven record having done a wonderful job over the years. They are the most democratic education bodies because they have representation from teachers, parents and public representatives who can raise points on behalf of the public at vocational education committee meetings. The Minister is very capable and I have confidence in her. I favour organisation at county level whether for education, health or local authorities.

Mr. Broughan

When I listened to Deputy Martin and Deputy Coughlan I was struck by the bizarre and almost comic nature of their contributions. I could forsee a Micheál and Mary Show on education since some of their observations were so far divorced from reality——

Miss Coughlan

Especially the 4 per cent in the by-election.

Mr. Broughan

——particularly as there were many areas for which their party had responsibility for many years and did nothing to advance. Referring to the White Paper on Education Deputy Coughlan spoke about being pushed at, nudged, cajoled, wined and dined and brought from the convention to Marlborough Street. I wonder what she was thinking of when she used such phraseology.

Miss Coughlan

The Deputy was not asked to all the parties.

Miss Broughan

The 1992 Green Paper on Education, which was produced by a Fianna Fáil Minister, Deputy Séamus Brennan, clearly set out to do what Deputies Martin and Coughlan complained about, but which the Minister, Deputy Bhreathnach, has no intention of doing, namely, to abolish the vocational education committees. It was Fianna Fáil who wished to take away the management of schools from the vocational education committees and it was also Fianna Fáil who tried to take the responsibility for the employment of teachers from the vocational education committees. Most damning of all, it was Fianna Fáil which intended to gut the vocational education committees by a so-called streamlining process. In 1992, in my local authority area, a Fianna Fáil Minister took our six third level colleges out of the vocational education committee sector. There have been many arguments in favour of the latter course but it ill behoves Fianna Fáil, particularly Deputy Martin, to try to portray itself as the guardian of the vocational education committee.

Whether Deputies Martin and Coughlan like it, the Minister's proposals come at the end of the widest ever consultative process engaged in by any Minister for Education. In 1993, prior to calling the national education convention, the Minister sought and received over 1,000 detailed submissions on the future of Irish education. In 1994, she held the equally historic round table talks. Last year she produced "Charting our Education Future" a remarkable White Paper which was in many ways an historic first for the future of Irish education. This process involved widespread consensus among the key actors in the education process — the owners, trustees, vocational education committees, teachers' unions and, perhaps most importantly, parents.

As the Minister pointed out, Ireland is one of the most centralised providers of education in the developed world. That point could be made about any facet of Irish administration. One of the key tests for any party concerned about the creation of a modern Ireland is its preparedness to devolve powers away from the centre to the community. It appears that Fianna Fáil intends to fall at this first hurdle in the education area. So much for its modern identity. Ireland Incorporated has often worked well for Fianna Fáil in the past but it appears Fianna Fáil has no intention of changing to meet the future education needs of the public. I welcome the Minister's intention to develop the new system in a carefully phased manner. It is intended to move the key education functions to the new regional boards in a five year phased period.

Mr. Martin

The more phased the better, I would say.

Mr. Broughan

Some of the more interesting developments for the boards include the development of educational plans for each region with key strategic priorities and objectives. It is a hallmark of the Minister, Deputy Bhreathnach, that she has announced such plans will be open for public inspection and debate. Contrary to the Opposition's allegations last week, this process will mark a new maturity in local democracy. Perhaps, that is what Fianna Fáil is truly afraid of. There will also be an annual programme and budget for each regional board and it is very appropriate that these budgets will be laid before this House.

As a member of the Public Accounts Committee, I have been struck by the lack of accountability in many areas of education spending over the years. The Comptroller and Auditor General under the 1994 Act has, at last, been given the power to scrutinise all aspects of education spending. It was with dismay, however, that recent meetings of the Public Accounts Committee learned that the financial reports of a small minority of vocational education committees had to be qualified by the local government auditor. I do not want to spend too much time tonight on the financial affairs of the County Westmeath vocational education committee, with which Fianna Fáil, particularly some of its ex-Ministers, are very familiar.

Undoubtedly, there were serious inequalities in education spending and provision in the past. The proposal of a local block grant to be transmitted through the regional boards to provide for all the students in their catchment area is, therefore, attractive. The budgetary provisions of the new boards will be based on nationally determined criteria to ensure fairness, including important provision for minorities and those with learning disabilities. Another very attractive aspect of the creation of the regional boards is the scope which they give for integrated provision of new curricular development and school support services.

A considerable achievement of this Minister and, to be fair, some of her recent predecessors, has been the expansion of areas such as remedial education, the psychological service and home-school liasion. I know from experience that teachers who have been retrained to take up these posts can often feel isolated within individual schools or small groups of schools. I look forward, therefore, to the creation of the special committees promised by the Minister at regional level, to facilitate and expand these important new services and developments.

A Member of this House could not deny the enormous contribution to education of the 38 vocational education committees in the past 66 years. Far from weakening the vocational education committees, the Minister has given a firm pledge in chapter 14 of Charting our Education Future that there will be a strong role for vocational education committees. The new legislation she is planning will strengthen their statutory base and give them clear recognition as important providers of education at all levels. The commission on school accommodation needs, which the Minister established, will try to ensure the smaller less well resourced vocational education committees will retain their character and integrity in any new developments.

I have been deeply impressed by the tremendous vitality of the Dublin City vocational education committee, especially in the past few years under the chairmanship of my colleague, Deputy Costello. The huge expansion of adult and second chance education through Dublin city's 22 vocational education committee colleges has been an enormous resource for the people of Dublin, particularly our constituents who have been trying to retain and educate themselves and could not avail of second and third level education in the earlier part of their lives. I am certain this wonderful progress is not endangered by the Minister's proposals.

In my constituency, Coláiste Dhúlaigh in Coolock has given thousands of northsiders a platform to develop recreational and vocational skills. Like Deputy Ring, I will be parochial for a moment and put on the record my strong support for granting regional technical college third level status to Coláiste Dhúlaigh. Its two Coolock campuses would be an ideal base to develop a junior third level college for the northside of Dublin. There is a growing movement across the northside, which has a population of 350,000 people, for an regional technical college, in addition to the national university which has many students from areas such as the western seaboard and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's county. Students from the northside of Dublin are not always able to attend that university. Therefore, I make a plea for a northside regional technical college.

Deputy Coughlan wants to spend £25 million on the regional boards. However, the Minister has no intention of wasting money——

Miss Coughlan

I do not. The Deputy did not read correctly what somebody else wrote down for him.

Mr. Broughan

——on non-productive bureaucratic structures. That is why she is introducing the new system on a phased basis with a careful evaluation after three and five years. There will also clearly be——

Miss Coughlan

That is incorrect, that is not what I said. The Deputy should check the record of the House.

Mr. Broughan

——a transfer of many existing resources from the centralised bureaucracies in Marlborough Street, Athlone and Tullamore. It is becoming increasingly frustrating to try to deal with Fianna Fáil on this type of issue when it calls for increased resources for the system——

Miss Coughlan

Especially when the Labour Party cannot read—it needs a remedial teacher.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Broughan, without interruption.

Mr. Broughan

——while at the same time their colleagues, Deputies Cullen and McCreevy, the Progressive Democrats-Fianna Fáilers, advocate the slash and burn approach to public expenditure. Sheer dishonesty and brass neck was shown here by Deputy Martin last week on the cost issue when he shed crocodile tears for the parents of children with special needs. The appalling neglect of these children by Fianna Fáil had to be the first priority of the Ministers, Deputies Bhreathnach and Howlin, when we joined the partnership Government in 1993.

Mr. Martin

What about the partnership Government of 1992?

Mr. Broughan

The record is clear that the Labour Party dramatically increased spending on children with learning disabilities and special needs. Fianna Fáil's position on this matter is deeply hypocritical. The Minister's proposal is based on the deepest consultation in the history of the State. We need decentralisation at regional level in the interests of accountability and equality. I applaud the achievements of our vocational education committees throughout the decades and the Minister's proposals will not detract from their continued development. The decision of Fianna Fáil to put this motion before the House——

Miss Coughlan

It is putting pressure on you boys.

Mr. Broughan

——only illustrates its cynicism and does not make a positive contribution to the ongoing important debate on education.

Debate adjourned.