We are left with no option but to proceed with this legislation. We must respond appropriately to the Labour Court examination and the unambiguous legal advice we have obtained.
Civil Service Regulation (Amendment) Bill, 1996: Second Stage (Resumed).
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
Am I looking at the Taoiseach through a pane of glass?
A Deputy
We are looking at him through a black painted door.
The Deputy looks at everything through a wall of prejudice and hurt.
We are looking at the Taoiseach through stained glass.
(Interruptions.)
As I said many times this morning, if Members are dissatisfied with the reply of the Taoiseach or of the Minister for Justice in this matter they have many remedies open to them but it cannot be debated now.
On a point of order——
On a point of order——
I will hear no more points of order.
Where is the cover up?
(Interruptions.)
Extradition is a serious business.
The Deputies should listen.
The Government can run but it cannot hide.
I admire the authoritarian rules, a Cheann Comhairle.
(Interruptions.)
I have striven earnestly to maintain order and have repeatedly advised Members how to proceed if they are dissatisfied — and clearly they are dissatisfied — with the reply of the Taoiseach or of the Minister. However, the disorder has continued. If I am not permitted to proceed with the business ordered I will have no option but to suspend the sitting for some considerable time. I ask that the Minister of State, Deputy Doyle, be heard.
Women were unrepresented——
The sitting should be suspended.
The sitting should be suspended to allow the Whips to meet to discuss the matter.
Where is the cover-up?
(Interruptions.)
I am suspending the sitting.
Sitting suspended at 11.15 a.m. and resumed at 11.45 a.m.
We will resume on Item 13, Second Stage of the Civil Service Regulation (Amendment) Bill, 1996. The Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Doyle, is in possession. She has 15 minutes remaining.
There has been considerable disruption of the House this morning which this side of the House does not wish to continue. On the Ceann Comhairle's suggestion, the Whips met.
I asked this morning for a short debate to clarify matters leading up to the debate on 24 April, a number of points the Taoiseach made in the middle of the disruption earlier regarding the Attorney General and that the procedures were not followed. The Taoiseach has refused to allow this debate and this side of the House feels this is grossly unfair to the House. Irrespective of whether the Taoiseach misled the House or otherwise——
I did not.
——the issues could be clarified in a short debate. I am not accusing the Taoiseach of anything.
The Leader of the Opposition's Deputies did.
The Taoiseach should not be so sensitive.
That is politics.
A short debate would deal with this matter and enable the Taoiseach to explain what happened.
I have already done so.
If one reads the newspaper articles——
Let there be no elaboration, Deputy Ahern.
——of what the State counsel said on the day, it is clear that questions must be answered about this matter. The Taoiseach suggested we table parliamentary questions in the normal way, but that is where this matter started. The Taoiseach would not answer questions and they were transferred to the Minister for Justice. We will not get the answer we require about the matters which relate to the Attorney General and how the Attorney General answered the procedures.
I answered a question about that. If Deputies are worried about the notice requirements, with the Ceann Comhairle's permission, I will be happy to take any questions the Deputies wish to table on this matter next Tuesday. That is regardless of the notice requirements.
Another week.
If they are tabled today, I will have no problem answering questions on the matter because what I said in the House was truthful. Aspects of the matter are the responsibility of the Minister for Justice and the Garda Síochána and I cannot and do not — no Taoiseach ever does — answer for other Ministers in that area. However, any questions tabled to the Minister for Justice will also be answered thoroughly. As far as anything I said is concerned, and in so far as the Office of the Attorney General is concerned, I will answer all questions on that matter next Tuesday. I suggest the Deputies table their questions now. They have already had the benefit this morning of hearing what I will say in answer to those questions so they can think of any further questions they wish.
They cannot think of any; that is the problem.
I am endeavouring to be orderly.
I will not tolerate any further disorder. I am not prepared to preside over a rowdy House. if the Deputies want somebody to do that, they should pick somebody else.
We do not wish to do that, a Cheann Comhairle. We just want to get some answers.
We want to put a smile on Deputy Ferris's face.
The Taoiseach does not need me to point out to him that I cannot table any questions for Tuesday because it is now 11.55 a.m.
As I said, with the Ceann Comhairle's permission, I am willing to waive those requirements.
Can the Taoiseach do that?
The Chair would be happy to find a modus operandi to deal with this matter.
I would prefer if the matter was dealt with tomorrow. We cannot do it today because our spokesperson was ordered to withdraw this morning and we need him in the House. A formal debate could be held tomorrow and involve questions and answers for approximately 90 minutes. I cannot understand why the Taoiseach is refusing point blank to accede to this request. He is visiting Kilkenny tomorrow, and, perhaps, this is the real reason he does not want the debate.
Deputy Ahern was there one week ago.
I was there two weeks ago and it was a very successful visit.
In and out of boozers.
If that is the reason and we are talking about Tuesday, will the Taoiseach agree with the Whips that he should waive the requirements and that we should be allowed to take part in an hour and a half question and answer session? This is a very important matter on which there is a range of questions that we wish to ask——
The Deputy had made his point effectively.
——relating to the Attorney General, the procedures and what those representing the State said in the courts. There is a need for a formal debate in which the Taoiseach should answer those questions.
I hope to reach an accommodation with the Deputy.
The issues involved are sensitive and, certainly, important. I am surprised, therefore, that the Government does not wish to have a debate today. Will the Taoiseach agree to take questions today? There are very serious questions which should be answered as quickly as possible because of the issues involved. The Taoiseach holds his position because his predecessor failed to be accountable to the House in matters to do with extradition and answering Dáil questions. Because of the serious issues involved, because it has taken nearly six weeks for the facts to emerge and given the answers he gave in the House on 24 April, we need to know when the Taoiseach found out, who handled the case and so on. We should be told this afternoon. Will the Taoiseach take questions today?
What I am willing to do, if this can be agreed today in the House, is waive the requirement that all questions for next Tuesday be tabled by 12 noon, for the purpose of tabling questions on this matter. In so far as those questions relate to my responsibilities which include anything I have said, the Attorney General's office and its administrative role in this function, I will answer them extensively next Tuesday. That is the best way to proceed. I do not think that a debate in which one has set-piece speeches is the way to get information. A question and answer session is probably better. We will have half an hour at Taoiseach's Question Time next Tuesday which can be extended, if necessary, to ensure Deputies exhaust the subject. That is acceptable to me.
Deputy Albert Reynolds was not given a week.
I have no problem answering these questions.
Why did the Taoiseach not answer the questions he was asked this morning?
There was no Question Time this morning.
It was the wrong question.
(Interruptions.)
A Deputy
Was there a cover up?
I answered the allegations fully as they were put to me on the floor of the House this morning. I am happy to continue in that vein.
Will the Taoiseach do so today?
I have been truthful and forthright with the House in this matter. I will also be forthright with it next Tuesday. In so far as matters fall within her area of responsibility, the Minister for Justice will answer questions on them.
What about Dáil reform.
Since there seems to be general agreement between the Opposition and Government parties——
No.
Order, I should be allowed to proceed. Since there appears to be agreement that the matter shall be dealt with next week, may I suggest that the Whips meet to work out the detail?
No.
A Deputy
Do it now.
What I am suggesting is that the notice period for questions to me in regard to my responsibilities in this matter should be shortened so that Members can table questions for next Tuesday. If they wish to extend Taoiseach's Question Time within the overall period of Question Time next Tuesday, that might be agreed to.
We can ask the Minister for Justice in three weeks' time.
I am not making any other suggestions——
The Taoiseach is stringing it out.
——or proposing a formal debate on the matter.
That is not acceptable.
What is the Taoiseach afraid of?
Nothing.
Then have a formal debate.
The Taoiseach's view has been expressed, but it is not a matter for him to decide when questions will be answered in the House. As this is an urgent matter, we should take Private Notice Questions on it today. I do not understand why the Taoiseach will not take questions today.
Has the Deputy tabled any Private Notice Questions?
Yes.
All she is doing is making a charade out of this for newspaper headlines.
How does the Deputy think the Government came to office?
I appeal for some constructive suggestions.
I have been trying to do so and it is one of the reasons the Progressive Democrats' Whip and I went to meet the Government Chief Whip to ask for a debate, to which the Government acquiesced. In suggesting that we should table questions the Taoiseach is presupposing that the full facts are in the public domain. As far as this side of the House is concerned that is not the case. That is the reason we have asked for a formal debate during which the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice will make statements and the Opposition may ask whatever questions arise. We repeat our request for a structured debate, either tomorrow or next week.
That is very reasonable.
One cannot table questions until one knows what one is talking about.
The Minister replied extensively on this matter to a question tabled for written reply yesterday by Deputy O'Donnell and on 15 May to questions from Deputies O'Donnell and Harney.
I suggest Deputies study what the Minister for Justice said on the matter. If they find problems or have questions, they should pose them to her.
It was totally unacceptable.
As regards statements I made, I propose that we allow Deputies to put questions to me next Tuesday on my area of responsibility.
I would like to bring this matter to finality. We will proceed with the business of the House or adjourn forthwith to Question Time.
Can the Taoiseach tell me why he is not in favour of taking questions on this matter today?
That is a straight question.
I answered questions on this matter as they were put this morning.
The Taoiseach has not.
Some of the matters are within my area of responsibility and I answered fully questions within my area of responsibility. Deputies have had two parliamentary replies on this matter from the Minister for Justice plus my replies and what I said this morning. It is reasonable that Deputies who are insistent on trying to find something about which to create a problem should have time to prepare questions, to table them in the normal way and to have them answered. Deputy Harney is always anxious to look for full answers.
We are looking for the truth.
Deputy Harney will be given full answers next Tuesday if she tables all the questions she can think of which affect me and my responsibilities. Any questions she wishes to put to the Minister for Justice will be answered in due course by her.
Why not today?
I am not prepared to listen to a rehash of what transpired this morning. If we cannot come to a consensus, I propose to adjourn proceedings again.
The Opposition is trying to be reasonable.
I put a number of questions to the Taoiseach this morning.
The Deputy made a contribution three or four times.
The public interest requires that we have an opportunity to have those questions answered today. I do not understand why the Taoiseach will not take those questions.
If they are in my area of responsibility, they will be answered next Tuesday.
He seems to want to wash his hands of this matter. When did the Taoiseach find out the fault lay on the Irish side?
The Minister for Justice will answer that; I cannot answer for everybody.
When did the Taoiseach find out the fault lay on the Irish side?
The answer on 15 May made that clear.
Why were statements made suggesting the matter had been thoroughly investigated? The Taoiseach must give adequate explanations.
I ask that order be restored and that the decorum and dignity of this House be observed as we are being looked on by the nation. I ask that we continue with item 13.
A Deputy
No way.
I am suspending the sitting until Question Time.
Sitting suspended at 12.05 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.