It is proposed to take No. 18, Pensions (Amendment) Bill, 1995 — Report and Final Stages — and No. 19, Garda Síochána Bill, 1996 — Second Stage (Resumed). It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders that: (1) the proceedings on the Report and Final Stages of No. 18, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 1 p.m. today by one Question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Social Welfare; (2) the proceedings on the resumed Second Stages of No. 19, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. tonight; and (3) Private Members' Business shall be No. 29 — Motion re hepatitis C (Resumed) and the proceedings thereon shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. tonight.
Order of Business.
Are the proposals for dealing with No. 18, the Pensions (Amendment) Bill, 1995, Report and Final Stage agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 19 the Garda Síochána Bill, 1996, Second stage (Resumed) satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals relating to Private Members' Business this evening satisfactory? Agreed.
For the first time in 20 years, last night the House rejected a Government Bill on Second Stage. In the normal course of events under our rules it would be a further six months before the Bill could come before the House. Deputy Séamus Brennan, on a point of order which the Chair allowed, offered to consult the Government on the basis that we were in favour of light rail but were against the draconian powers that this Bill gave the Minister——
Scrambling back.
Making excuses.
——making provision for knocking houses and business premises——
Hoping for excuses to try to justify it——
Clearly we cannot debate the matter now.
The Government has two choices.
Anti-light rail, anti-Dublin.
I negotiated the money for the light rail, as we negotiated everything else, but the Minister did nothing. This is an incompetent Government that is spending everything.
The Deputy is putting it in jeopardy.
The Deputy is sabotaging light rail.
The Chair is not being helped by interruptions from the Government side of the House.
Under Standing Orders the Government cannot reintroduce this Bill within six months. If this House believes in openness, transparency and accountability, the Government certainly cannot do it but it can discuss how the Bill can be amended. Last night we made a decision on behalf of the people whose houses would be knocked.
The Deputy may raise a procedural point but may not make a speech.
What did Fianna Fáil do with the west Cork heavy rail system? It is well known what it did.
Will the Minister for Finance proceed with this Bill in the normal way — amending it before bringing it back to the House in six months' time — or engage with the Opposition in amending the Bill substantially and removing the grounds for objection, on which the Opposition won the vote last night, because there was no proper consultative procedure for ordinary people to have a say in how it will operate? That is what the victory was.
That should be adequate, Deputy.
The Government cannot reintroduce a Bill that was negatived by this House under a phoney order, as it is suggesting to the media. The Government has the alternative of waiting six months or dropping the sections and I ask the Minister to confirm the option he will take.
Will the Minister reply now or does Deputy Harney wish to comment on the same subject?
I would not like to intrude on the partnership.
The Minister had some partnership last night.
We have heard a great deal in recent days about democracy. If democracy means anything, it means that when this House votes in a certain way the Government follows it and does not seek to undermine democracy. I agree with Deputy Costello that it was a blinkered approach from the Government which should consult the Opposition parties with a view to amending the legislation to ensure we get the most effective and appropriate public transport system for the city and county of Dublin.
It was not the Opposition who defeated the Government last night, it was the Government's own incompetence. We will not see the rules of this House undermined because the Government has been incompetent. I appeal to the Minister to go back to the drawing board, to talk to Opposition parties and bring an amended Bill before the House which can win the support of all the parties in the House, not just the parties in Government.
Very convenient.
The Minister was not even here.
The Government will take note of the fact when it meets later today that the Fianna Fáil Party, the Progressive Democrat Party and the environmentally friendly Greens voted on Second Stage against the principle of a light rail system for Dublin.
The Minister was not listening.
It is what the Opposition did last night and there is no fudging that.
Where were your Deputies?
Five Labour Deputies did not come in to vote.
The question of amendments proposed by Deputy Bertie Ahern — and he has been in this House as long as I have been here — is what I used to consider Committee Stage was all about. We have endless examples where there were problems with specific details that were dealt with on Committee Stage.
When Deputy Quinn was in Clanbrassil Street he was against that.
The two and a half Opposition parties have been caught in their opportunistic phase——
The Minister could not mind the shop when the two boys were away.
——they voted against the principle thinking they would lose the vote but they have voted against the principle of light rail for Dublin.
We should be caught more often then and have some of the Minister's own people go AWOL.
We voted for it, the parties opposite voted against it. That is democracy.
I cannot let that stand on the record of the House.
Did the Deputy's party not vote against it?
Before Deputy Brennan proceeds I must dissuade Members from the notion that we can debate the matter now.
Fianna Fáil voted against the principles of no consultation, riding roughshod over the wishes of local communities and draconian measures in a clumsy Bill brought before the House by an incompetent Government. Having been defeated last night it should withdraw the Bill and introduce a fundamentally changed one.
I seem to recall that a Government of which the Deputy was a member accepted the principle of a Bill, proposed by Deputy Alan Shatter, on Second Stage which was subsequently amended on Committee Stage.
Not the principle of no consultation.
The reality is that the parties voted against the principle of the Bill.
There was no consultation.
We are having much repetition. I assert again that I will not allow a debate to ensue on this issue now. There will be ample time for a debate later.
The result of the vote last night was a victory for the small communities in Arran Quay Terrace and Mount Brown who were ignored and trampled on by the Government.
The Deputy may not raise that matter now. There will be ample time for comments of that kind later.
The Government Members who represent those two communities voted by their absence from the House last night. This was a victory for the people of Arran Quay Terrace, Mount Brown and the other little communities and businesses who were ignored and trampled on by the Government.
That will do, Deputy. Let us have no more about this light rail measure until we see it in the House again.
I read the newspaper this morning and heard the media comments on what the Government intends to do. In this regard I waited for the Government Chief Whip to make contact. Will the Minister outline what the Government intends to do? My colleague, Deputy Seamus Brennan, suggested last night that the Government Chief Whip and the other Whips should consult on this.
That is a legitimate question on the Order of Business.
The Government will consider the situation. We take it that the parties opposite are not opposed to light rail and, on that basis, will reintroduce the Bill as early as possible. We will take note of the points which have been made.
Not the same Bill.
The Brennan Bill.
It should have the support of all the parties in Government.
I am surprised that the Deputy with his experience of Government would not realise the implications of what he has just said.
What I said was that the Government cannot introduce the same Bill.
The Government will consider the situation and reintroduce the Bill as early as possible following consultation with the Whips.
A Bill.
Is the Minister saying that the Government will introduce a new Bill? It is not good enough for Government spokespersons to say overnight that, because a few people did not turn up, it can re-run the same Bill. It cannot do so. I do not want to engage in criticism, but whoever said this does not understand the Standing Orders of this House. As pointed out this morning on radio by Deputy Molloy, this would be in breach of Standing Order 52. The Minister is correct that last night we voted against the principle——
Of light rail.
No. The Minister's colleague, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, fought a battle in relation to Luggala and Mullaghmore, but the Supreme Court ruled that he had to consult about the building of visitor centres and car parks, that he could not overrule ordinary people.
I provided for consultation, but the Deputy ignored it.
I agree that there should be consultation.
Last February I asked the Taoiseach on the Order of Business if the Minister, Deputy Lowry, would consult the Chamber of Commerce and others about this legislation.
Several times.
The Minister issued a statement within two days condemning them——
A diktat.
——and said that he would not consult. He went ahead with a plan to knock houses and move people out, but he lost. The Bill cannot be reintroduced.
The Deputy is anti-light rail. He voted against the Bill, as the people of Dublin know.
I have much to say about light rail, but that is another issue.
I have allowed matters to be raised on the procedure to be adopted in relation to this measure, but we cannot debate the pros and cons now.
The Bill in question was defeated on Second Stage. By definition, any Bill introduced will have to be a new one. The Government will consider the situation today. It is our intention to have a light rail system in this city as soon as possible and we will introduce legislation to give effect to this. In the course of its introduction, naturally, we will consult with the Whips.
In the context of the Courts and Court Officers Act, 1996, when will additional judges be appointed by the Government? Serious criminal trials——
With respect, this is not Question Time.
I will be brief. Serious criminal trials are being adjourned every second day in Dublin city and throughout the country. Will the Minister outline his own role in this scandal? Is there a lack of finance——
I want to assist the Deputy in raising pertinent matters at this time, but the appointment of judges is certainly not one.
On a point of order, it relates to the implementation——
I will hear no point of order now. As the Deputy knows, he is out of order.
——of the Courts and Court Officers Act. I am entitled to an answer from the Minister.
The Deputy did not refer to an Act but to the appointment of judges.
I did, Sir, with respect. I am entitled to a reply because I am in order.
Not on the Order of Business.
Did the Deputy refer to legislation?
I did — the Courts and Court Officers Act.
The question put to me was when the Government proposes to take certain executive decisions on foot of legislation which has been passed. Is that in order, a Cheann Comhairle?
I have said that this is not Question Time.
This is an absolute scandal.
The Deputy should raise the matter in another way.
The facts are that if somebody is charged with murder tomorrow, they may not be tried until 1998. In the meantime they will be out on bail. This is a serious matter.
It is, but not one for the Order of Business.
Does the Minister now want to respond?
When will we see the proposed freedom of information Bill?
Work on that very complex Bill is advancing satisfactorily and we hope to publish it in the autumn.
The Electoral (Amendment) Bill, 1996 was first introduced in the House six months ago by my colleague Deputy Wallace. It has been on the merry-go-round, so to speak, and was debated for three hours in the Dáil and four hours in the relevant select committee. I understand the Bill received the unanimous support of that select committee and we are grateful to the Government parties for that. The principle of the Bill is not at issue and I understand the Government does not intend to introduce its own legislation. Will the Government allow the Bill to proceed during this session?
The House will be aware that a recent judgment of the Supreme Court raised fundamental questions about the Bill.
The Minister is referring to a different Bill.
The Bill to which I referred concerns the voting rights of people with a disability.
I do not have that information to hand. I apologise as I thought Deputy Ahern was referring to another Bill. I will obtain the information requested and communicate with him.